How strong are you supposed to be at high level?

[magicalmagicman]

I was working on a wizard, "differently optimized", and I'm having trouble killing the CR20 creatures like Big T. It was stressing me out but then I realized... am I supposed to be able to solo Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques?

So how strong are you supposed to be at high level? Is it embarassing for a wizard to be unable to take out Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques solo? Is it embarassing for a blaster wizard to be unable to one shot Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques with their opening salvo? Is it ok to be so weak to the point you require teamwork to take out CR20 creatures as a WIZARD?

A part of me wants to cut content for optimization, and a part of me wants to just leave things as it is...

So, if you're a level 20 wizard in a REAL game you play, how do you fair against Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques?

[Covenant12]

Plenty of ways to debate or answer that question, but the easiest math I've read is this:

Standard party is four, CR party level+2 is two monsters of CR equal to level, CR+4 is four monsters CR equal to level. (mirror match) So solo CR equal to character level is mirror match, and a balance point.

I'd consider a character decently optimized if it fights against a monster of CR equal to character level and wins 50% of the time. Works perfectly for NPC opponents, as its characters of equal level. That's a reasonable balance point, and easy to remember. Rock/paper/scissors is definitely a thing. If a rogue beats 1/3 of equal CR enemies 80% of the time, another third 50%, final third 20% I'd say that's balanced overall. It also screws team players. Bards are much better in a 6 person party than solo like this. Team players need something more complex, likely subjective judgement.

If your high level wizard consistently loses solo fights to equal CR enemies, you are probably not pulling your weight in the party. From experience, better spell selection can fix this easily, even with combat-useless feats.

[BowStreetRunner]

Challenge Rating (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#challengeRating)
This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.
Basically, a CR 20 creature is a moderately difficult encounter for a party of about 4 adventurers with an average level of 20.

So no, you shouldn't expect to solo a CR 20 creature at 20th level.

[Goaty14]

Er yea, as everybody else has said (and will say): you shouldn't be able to solo a CR 20 monster as a Level 20 PC (ignoring the fact that big T is horrendously under CRed and it's stupidly easy to beat since it can't negate flight + ranged weapons).

Looking at the encounter calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) (I give it 10/10 -- everything that I need for my encounter-crafting needs), you should be able to solo CR 16 creatures as a Level 20 PC. Such monsters could be an Old Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon), a Horned Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon), or a Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#greaterStoneGolem)

[Cosi]

It is reasonable to expect that a level X character will defeat CR/EL X encounters roughly half the time. You can make complicated arguments there, but the simple reality is that a level X character is a CR X monster, and that the only way for CR X monsters to be balanced is for each one to average a 50% win rate against the others.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Having trouble with the tarrasque is strange, because you should be able to fly and cover it with allip summons.

Balors and pit fiends are some of the strongest things in the Monster Manual--soloing them should be possible for a god wizard, but they aren't as limited as the tarrasque, so be prepared to drop multiple high-level spells. You should, with some strategizing, be able to beat them. At the very least, you can shapechange into a pit fiend and buff yourself with empyreal ecstacy, death ward, silence and so on. That'll let you go toe-to-toe and beat them. Time stop and arcane spellsurge let you get your buffs up.

[Eldonauran]

Having trouble with the tarrasque is strange, because you should be able to fly and cover it with allip summons.

Balors and pit fiends are some of the strongest things in the Monster Manual--soloing them should be possible for a god wizard, but they aren't as limited as the tarrasque, so be prepared to drop multiple high-level spells. You should, with some strategizing, be able to beat them. At the very least, you can shapechange into a pit fiend and buff yourself with empyreal ecstacy, death ward, silence and so on. That'll let you go toe-to-toe and beat them. Time stop and arcane spellsurge let you get your buffs up.

All of that requires a lot of knowledge checks for a character, or 'out of character' player knowledge, and a lot of prep work. Going up against the Tarrasque, for the first time, without 'scry and die' tactics is going to be rough ride.

[ExLibrisMortis]

All of that requires a lot of knowledge checks for a character, or 'out of character' player knowledge, and a lot of prep work. Going up against the Tarrasque, for the first time, without 'scry and die' tactics is going to be rough ride.
(1) It's big and has sharp teeth.
(2) I can fly.
(3) I fly away from the big thing with sharp teeth.
(4) Hey look, it's not eating me!

The tarrasque is not well-designed.


Balors and pit fiends are harder to fight, but a lot of those buff spells I suggested are generic, and there's Knowledge (the Planes) for everything else.

[Cosi]

All of that requires a lot of knowledge checks for a character, or 'out of character' player knowledge, and a lot of prep work. Going up against the Tarrasque, for the first time, without 'scry and die' tactics is going to be rough ride.

If your 20th level spellcaster isn't flying, he's too stupid to live. phantom steed and overland flight both last long enough that you can have them active out of yesterday's slots. The absolute worst a Wizard worth the name is going to do is a tie.

[Fizban]

... am I supposed to be able to solo Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques?
Ahem, NO!

You are supposed to be part of a 4 person team, and if your character is capable of soloing monsters that are supposed to require a 4 person team, then they are by definition overpowered.

The fact that you were actually stressing out about it, about not living up to what can only be a definition of an overpowered character, only proves how toxic the all maximum power all the time char op or get out culture can be.


I'm not interesting in having iteration n+1 of how the CR system works, but I should still point out that it is not designed for solo characters at all and every matchup is assuming the standard party of fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard, and this means that no individual character can ever be expected to solo anything any percent of the time.


Regarding the Tarrasque: as always, monsters have to be used in ways that they actually matter. Melee only monsters are only encounters worth xp when the party actually faces an appropriate amount of danger from their melee, no matter what level they or the party are. The Tarrasque does in fact have terrifyingly high numbers compared to a normal party, and for someone who hasn't read about how to kill it on the internet can't be easily stopped, and it's own entry makes it clear that more than just the PCs are at risk. Finally, the Tarrasque is one of those poorly set up monsters that has a CR of 20 but is characterized as a boss that you should be fighting much earlier for a much higher challenge, with a level of 15-17 being more likely.

For a good use of the Tarrasque I like World's Largest Dungeon- the party (somewhere around 15-17 based on the expected starting level for the area) pretty much stumbles into the thing while trapped in an underground teleport-locked complex, and is on a pretty short time limit for finding a way to deal with it. Notably, killing it permanently or even temporarily is not required, and simply getting it to change targets (it's currently under someone else's control) and go on a rampage instead of hacking away at the time limit is still a success, for certain values of success.

[Crake]

Ahem, NO!

You are supposed to be part of a 4 person team, and if your character is capable of soloing monsters that are supposed to require a 4 person team, then they are by definition overpowered.

The fact that you were actually stressing out about it, about not living up to what can only be a definition of an overpowered character, only proves how toxic the all maximum power all the time char op or get out culture can be.

This has been covered already, a level 20 character should be able to solo them at least 50% of the time. They're supposed to be a moderate challenge for a 4 party team, ie expecting no losses, and an expenditure of roughly 1/4 of the party's resources. Saying you shouldn't be able to solo them is like saying you shouldn't be able to solo a single NPC of equal level to yourself. Now, of course, if you can solo them reliably, that's a different story, though even then, rock paper scissors has been mentioned, I wouldn't expect a level 20 fighter to come out on top vs a level 20 wizard very often, if at all.

[Cosi]

Also, I personally would absolutely rather the rest of my party be trying to make level appropriate character than the alternative. Yes, you shouldn't necessarily be stressing about whether you can curbstomp a Balor on your own. But you should be thinking about how your character contributes when it comes time to fight a Balor, because as party of a 20th level party that time will come, and if all you can do is "get dazelocked by CL 20 blashemy", your character is probably dead weight for the group.

[Fizban]

See edit I was adding above, re: the CR system does not accurately reflect "solo" parties, and throw in a measure of how NPCs aren't the measure of the CR system either.

But seriously, I'm not having this entire argument with you all again. Anyone can read the Encounter section of the DMG and see how it never refers to anything other than parties of PCs against monsters, and if they want to ignore that and complain about things not performing according to their own self-determined power levels then I can't stop them.

[Cosi]

{{scrubbed}}

[magicalmagicman]

Having trouble with the tarrasque is strange, because you should be able to fly and cover it with allip summons.

Balors and pit fiends are some of the strongest things in the Monster Manual--soloing them should be possible for a god wizard, but they aren't as limited as the tarrasque, so be prepared to drop multiple high-level spells. You should, with some strategizing, be able to beat them. At the very least, you can shapechange into a pit fiend and buff yourself with empyreal ecstacy, death ward, silence and so on. That'll let you go toe-to-toe and beat them. Time stop and arcane spellsurge let you get your buffs up.

What happens when a Shapechanged Pit Fiend with Regeneration gets Vorpaled by the Balor? Does he die? What about an Undead/Iron Golem? After the changes revert, do you die?

[Doctor Awkward]

The tarrasque is not well-designed.

The tarrasque is designed just fine.
The problem is that, with most DM's, it is not well utilized.

The tarrasque is not intended to be a stand-up fight for the party. It's a force of nature. It's a natural disaster that the party cannot simply throw one spell at to resolve.

When used as intended, the question is never, "Will be be able to defeat the Tarrasque?" The question is, "Can we stop the Tarrasque before it devours the kingdom we worked so hard to build up over our careers and killing everyone we know and love?"

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's a natural disaster that the party cannot simply throw one spell at to resolve.
Except that you can... reverse gravity is the classic example.


The tarrasque is not intended to be a stand-up fight for the party. It's a force of nature.
That sounds like a mild application of the Oberoni fallacy to me. It's not badly designed, you just shouldn't use it against the PCs!

I don't disagree that the tarrasque was intended to be a force of nature, rampaging across the countryside, but it doesn't have the stats to back it up. Even with all of its feats properly assigned, using Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, and the Epic Level Handbook, it isn't a huge threat. Hell, as-is, you can just get on your horse and ride away from it. The first person gets eaten (Rush + charge, preventable if you have cover or rough terrain), the rest gets away--its average speed is only 33'.

[Calthropstu]

Ahem, NO!

You are supposed to be part of a 4 person team, and if your character is capable of soloing monsters that are supposed to require a 4 person team, then they are by definition overpowered.

The fact that you were actually stressing out about it, about not living up to what can only be a definition of an overpowered character, only proves how toxic the all maximum power all the time char op or get out culture can be.


I'm not interesting in having iteration n+1 of how the CR system works, but I should still point out that it is not designed for solo characters at all and every matchup is assuming the standard party of fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard, and this means that no individual character can ever be expected to solo anything any percent of the time.


Regarding the Tarrasque: as always, monsters have to be used in ways that they actually matter. Melee only monsters are only encounters worth xp when the party actually faces an appropriate amount of danger from their melee, no matter what level they or the party are. The Tarrasque does in fact have terrifyingly high numbers compared to a normal party, and for someone who hasn't read about how to kill it on the internet can't be easily stopped, and it's own entry makes it clear that more than just the PCs are at risk. Finally, the Tarrasque is one of those poorly set up monsters that has a CR of 20 but is characterized as a boss that you should be fighting much earlier for a much higher challenge, with a level of 15-17 being more likely.

For a good use of the Tarrasque I like World's Largest Dungeon- the party (somewhere around 15-17 based on the expected starting level for the area) pretty much stumbles into the thing while trapped in an underground teleport-locked complex, and is on a pretty short time limit for finding a way to deal with it. Notably, killing it permanently or even temporarily is not required, and simply getting it to change targets (it's currently under someone else's control) and go on a rampage instead of hacking away at the time limit is still a success, for certain values of success.

I ran a PF scenario where a group of monsters (a colossal plant monster from mm3 or 2 I believe) had captured the tarrasque and decided to use it as a food source. They had members constantly beating it to submission and numbered about 50. Now 50 colossal monsters congregating into one area warrants some alarm from nearby kingdoms. So yay adventurers... "Go kill those things."

[icefractal]

Except that you can... reverse gravity is the classic example.Mmm, I wouldn't call that a win by itself. Big T is 30x30, so for full coverage you're only managing an area 10' high. If you allow "more than half covered" to work, you can get 20' high, although that would result in slower "falling" IMO. Also, it's an 8th level spell that lasts 1 round/level; you still have to kill the Tarrasque while it's up there, because you're not buying much time to evacuate.

So in the case where the Tarrasque is actually dangerous - it's in ur base, killing ur dudes - this may not even work. Not only does it get a save when standing on anything solid, but if it's near any buildings or trees it can move itself out of the area (Climb +17 with no ranks).

That isn't to say the Tarrasque couldn't be better designed, but I think it's actually a pretty legit challenge in the right circumstances.

[Fizban]

Except that you can... reverse gravity is the classic example.
Pretty sure it was proved last time I saw this argument that Reverse Gravity doesn't cut it. The Tarrasque occupies 27 10' cubes and has a further reach of 20', while Reverse Gravity gives you only one 10' cube per 2 levels and has a duration of 1 round/level. Reverse Gravity doesn't stop the Tarrasque. (ninja'd)

I don't disagree that the tarrasque was intended to be a force of nature, rampaging across the countryside, but it doesn't have the stats to back it up.
A force of nature doesn't threaten the PCs. A force of nature threatens everyone but the PCs. Even if your PCs don't consider it a threat, the Tarrasque is a tornado that never ends and actively seeks out things to kill.

I would be curious to see what printed monster would be considered a "threat" to parties that don't consider the Tarrasque a threat. I imagine the category is nothing but monsters that include full spellcasting, because the DM is then assumed to optimize them to be on part with that of the party via magic. (And that's an honest question btw, 'cause I don't think I've ever heard anyone who calls the Tarrasque a non-threat speak highly of any monster).

[Calthropstu]

Pretty sure it was proved last time I saw this argument that Reverse Gravity doesn't cut it. The Tarrasque occupies 27 10' cubes and has a further reach of 20', while Reverse Gravity gives you only one 10' cube per 2 levels and has a duration of 1 round/level. Reverse Gravity doesn't stop the Tarrasque. (ninja'd)

A force of nature doesn't threaten the PCs. A force of nature threatens everyone but the PCs. Even if your PCs don't consider it a threat, the Tarrasque is a tornado that never ends and actively seeks out things to kill.

I would be curious to see what printed monster would be considered a "threat" to parties that don't consider the Tarrasque a threat. I imagine the category is nothing but monsters that include full spellcasting, because the DM is then assumed to optimize them to be on part with that of the party via magic. (And that's an honest question btw, 'cause I don't think I've ever heard anyone who calls the Tarrasque a non-threat speak highly of any monster).

PF gave it a ranged attack, but even then it just flat loses to high end spellcasters. Or archers on griffons. Once downed, it can be kept down simply by putting it so far into the negatives it would take 1000 years for regen to get it back up.

[icefractal]

PF gave it a ranged attack, but even then it just flat loses to high end spellcasters. Or archers on griffons. Once downed, it can be kept down simply by putting it so far into the negatives it would take 1000 years for regen to get it back up.If you encounter it out in a field, yeah. Or you could just run away from it in that case.

When it's in a city wrecking stuff and eating people, and you want it to stop doing that ASAP, it's not so trivial a challenge (for a party whose casters don't ignore spells/day, and without ubercharger-level DPS - ie. like the vast majority of campaigns). And keep in mind that as a CR 20 creature, it's not even supposed to be a big deal for a 20th level party; it's a big deal for a 15-16th level one.

[Calthropstu]

If you encounter it out in a field, yeah. Or you could just run away from it in that case.

When it's in a city wrecking stuff and eating people, and you want it to stop doing that ASAP, it's not so trivial a challenge (for a party whose casters don't ignore spells/day, and without ubercharger-level DPS - ie. like the vast majority of campaigns). And keep in mind that as a CR 20 creature, it's not even supposed to be a big deal for a 20th level party; it's a big deal for a 15-16th level one.

In pf, it's cr 25.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A wizard 20 with no feats can be expected to solo a Balor or Pit Fiend with proper spell selection and preparation. It's not really a question of optimization, so unless you've taken a PrC that loses tons of caster progression you should be fine. It's also kind of overkill for a lot of tables, so you can afford to pick suboptimal spells and feats for a theme build in most games.
I wouldn't sweat it if you're performing a little lower on the power scale unless it's a problem in a game you're actually playing.

The CR system is pretty well known to be kind of inaccurate sometimes so it's hardly a basis for argument. Expected power level varies hugely between different tables, different DMs or even just different campaigns.
A blaster wizard throwing bog-standard Fireballs without metamagic can be just as appropriate as a mailman doing 500+ damage with an Orb of Fire.


If you encounter it out in a field, yeah. Or you could just run away from it in that case.

When it's in a city wrecking stuff and eating people, and you want it to stop doing that ASAP, it's not so trivial a challenge (for a party whose casters don't ignore spells/day, and without ubercharger-level DPS - ie. like the vast majority of campaigns). And keep in mind that as a CR 20 creature, it's not even supposed to be a big deal for a 20th level party; it's a big deal for a 15-16th level one.
It's a magical beast with a will save bonus of +20 and no particular immunities to mind-affecting. It can literally be neutralized with a single spell as long as you account for SR.

[Eldariel]

If you encounter it out in a field, yeah. Or you could just run away from it in that case.

When it's in a city wrecking stuff and eating people, and you want it to stop doing that ASAP, it's not so trivial a challenge (for a party whose casters don't ignore spells/day, and without ubercharger-level DPS - ie. like the vast majority of campaigns). And keep in mind that as a CR 20 creature, it's not even supposed to be a big deal for a 20th level party; it's a big deal for a 15-16th level one.

Its will-saves are poor enough that something like Dominate Monster has a 50%+ of just oneshotting it. Sorc could one-up that and just use e.g. Enslave off Aboleth through Shapechange. Or just turn into anything with mental drain effect with your active Shapechange and drain it to death. Really, Shapechange provides you with ample means to hit it with things until it stays down and there's really no reason not to have it active that high up.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mmm, I wouldn't call that a win by itself. Big T is 30x30, so for full coverage you're only managing an area 10' high. If you allow "more than half covered" to work, you can get 20' high, although that would result in slower "falling" IMO. Also, it's an 8th level spell that lasts 1 round/level; you still have to kill the Tarrasque while it's up there, because you're not buying much time to evacuate.
It's a 7th-level spell to a wizard, not an 8th. To beat the tarrasque, you cast multiple reverse gravities in concert using arcane spellsurge and celerity. You move your 30x30 area up 10' per casting, and when the tarrasque reaches the height you want (or when you run out of slots, more likely), you only need to maintain the top layer or two. Obviously, persistomancy makes this very easy, but other measures can be taken, including several shots of save-or-lose spells. If holding on to things is the issue, cast grease a couple of times :smalltongue:.

[Darth Ultron]

Really ''as strong as you want to be".

It is hard to say things about 'power'' as D&D is not a pure linear game. If your power is 10, you don't auto kill anything of 9 or under.

And it's all about How You Play the Game.

A huge number of games outright always let the players win. Period. So you can'y really use them as a baseline for 'power' levels.

A huge number of games have bias homebrew rules that help the player characters and hurt everyone else. And, of course, there are always ''rule interpretations" that help the PCs too.

Few DM's play aggressively against the players, so they have the monsters more just 'hurt' or 'knock down' the PCs in a very 'combat is sport/cartoon way'.

All the above, and more, greatly effect the game.

[ryu]

Really ''as strong as you want to be".

It is hard to say things about 'power'' as D&D is not a pure linear game. If your power is 10, you don't auto kill anything of 9 or under.

And it's all about How You Play the Game.

A huge number of games outright always let the players win. Period. So you can'y really use them as a baseline for 'power' levels.

A huge number of games have bias homebrew rules that help the player characters and hurt everyone else. And, of course, there are always ''rule interpretations" that help the PCs too.

Few DM's play aggressively against the players, so they have the monsters more just 'hurt' or 'knock down' the PCs in a very 'combat is sport/cartoon way'.

All the above, and more, greatly effect the game.

There's even the style where the players losing is very real thing which will happen if they play poorly and retreating without people dying isn't given out without effort. That too can exist across a wide spectrum of power levels.

[Calthropstu]

There's even the style where the players losing is very real thing which will happen if they play poorly and retreating without people dying isn't given out without effort. That too can exist across a wide spectrum of power levels.

I do not pull punches and players die because of that. The Jade Regent adventure path was ridiculously tough for my players. So much so that they gave up in the final book, mainly because I didn't pull punches.

[AtlasSniperman]

Where is this repeated notion that a lvl20 PC is cr 20 coming from?

I was under the impression that a group of 4pcs @l20 is cr20. If that's the case then according to the cr rules, it's"four monsters of the same cr: cr+4"

Which would put a single l20 PC at cr16 wouldn't it?

[ViperMagnum357]

Where is this repeated notion that a lvl20 PC is cr 20 coming from?

I was under the impression that a group of 4pcs @l20 is cr20. If that's the case then according to the cr rules, it's"four monsters of the same cr: cr+4"

Which would put a single l20 PC at cr16 wouldn't it?

Page 37 of the DMG: 'An NPC with a PC class has a Challenge Rating equal to the NPC's level. Thus, an 8th-level Sorcerer is an 8th-level encounter.'

[Asmotherion]

With absolutelly no intention to sound smug, here is a List of Defining Factors:

-How Long have you been playing the Game?
-What materials do you have Access to?
-How much Liberty does your DM allows with them?
-How Good are you with Out of the Box thinking?
-How Good are you at staying focused on one task wile multitasking?

There is virtually no Cap at what you can do at 20 level, with a DM that allows Out of the Box thinking and if you can Focus at what you're Doing.

Example:

I once Spammed an instance of my spell slots, and then proceded to long rest in a Magnificent Mansion, after a Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. Since time (in that Setting) didn't flow on the Astral Plane, I just Plane Shifted Back in the middle of the Battle, with my spell slots and HP full, and my Buffs on, gaining the most Unfair Advantage Ever (Technically only a single Round passed for the Opponent's Perspective).

For a Wizard, it's about Knowing: How, when and where to use which spell. And most importantly, using the right variables; That's what distinguishes a Novice from a Master. Anyone can use a Fireball, but only a Master will think WHERE to use a Fireball instead of, say a Vitriolic Sphere.

[Blue Jay]

I do not pull punches and players die because of that. The Jade Regent adventure path was ridiculously tough for my players. So much so that they gave up in the final book, mainly because I didn't pull punches.

I pull punches. I'm a total cupcake of a DM. I mean, I try to challenge my players and give them tough objectives, but I usually want the PCs to succeed, and I'm not really savvy enough in villain design to regularly make them able to stand up well against the PCs.

To me, the best parts of the game are the storytelling and the creativity: the achievements and the competition don't really motivate me much, so I just try to make things entertaining and fun, and at least give the feel of a villain or monster trying to kill the heroes.

So, when someone asks "how powerful are you supposed to be?" I really have no idea how to answer that question, because the game has never really been about power to me. Since I play exclusively online, I usually have enough time to build and tailor encounters to my players (part of the creativity I enjoy is customizing monsters and NPCs), so the PCs' power level usually ends up being appropriate.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would be curious to see what printed monster would be considered a "threat" to parties that don't consider the Tarrasque a threat.Anything that can resist the draining attacks of undead, or that can hit incorporeal undead? It's really easy to summon shadows and wraiths and stuff to drain the tarrasque into a coma, and there's absolutely nothing it can do about them, except run away.

[noob]

Balors and pit fiends are some of the strongest things in the Monster Manual--soloing them should be possible for a god wizard, but they aren't as limited as the tarrasque, so be prepared to drop multiple high-level spells. You should, with some strategizing, be able to beat them. At the very least, you can shapechange into a pit fiend and buff yourself with empyreal ecstacy, death ward, silence and so on. That'll let you go toe-to-toe and beat them. Time stop and arcane spellsurge let you get your buffs up.
Misuse of the god wizard term(which is by default a wizard supposed to make his team win by giving advantages to his team mates, making the battlefield a perfect place and debuffing opponents depending on the cases).
maybe you were thinking about batman wizard(which is more about solving problems by itself by always using the perfect spells for the situation) or maybe to buff stacking gishing wizards.
Or even to rudisplork wizards which minds rape a commoner in loving his opponents and then spam lovepain on the commoner and other shenanigans which ends the opponents with ease and no range limit.

[Doctor Awkward]

Anything that can resist the draining attacks of undead, or that can hit incorporeal undead? It's really easy to summon shadows and wraiths and stuff to drain the tarrasque into a coma, and there's absolutely nothing it can do about them, except run away.

I admit I may have missed something in the debates over the years, but I never fully understood this approach.

In addition to being immune to both energy drain and ability damage, the tarrasque's Regeneration states that it "is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds", and specifically calls out mummy rot which deals Constitution damage.

Would that not also include any form of permanent ability score drain?

[RoboEmperor]

I admit I may have missed something in the debates over the years, but I never fully understood this approach.

In addition to being immune to both energy drain and ability damage, the tarrasque's Regeneration states that it "is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds", and specifically calls out mummy rot which deals Constitution damage.

Would that not also include any form of permanent ability score drain?

Ability Damage =/= Ability Drain. Mummy rot deals constitution DAMAGE

You're not supposed to use Allips, pure and simple. Some guy who thinks he's smart (he probably is smart) abused the allip, shared it with everyone, and now Big T is a joke.

Big T has a HUGE jump height so try beating him with another method other than this cheese. He is ridiculously hard to kill.

Then again... uberchargers...

Ok, he is ridiculously hard to kill without using some sort of exploit. This becomes apparent to people like me who try to kill the Tarrasque using Planar Binding exclusively. Balors, Pit Fiends, they can't kill Big T. Balor could maybe dominate it given enough tries.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about vile damage? Can't heal that up in 3e.

[Asmotherion]

The most Cheesee, yet effective way to down a Tarrasque is to summon some Allips with "Summon Undead 5". Then have a Wraith seal the Deal with "Create Greater Undead". All that from the safety of an Overland Flight Spell.

Let it Touch Attack the thing, 'till it's Wisdom score hits 0 and it gets into a Coma. The Tarrasque is Imune to Ability Damage AND Energy Drain, but not Ability Drain.

The Tarrasque has a Touch AC of 5, and the things you use are Incorporeal, thus should be in no real threat of getting hit.

When it reaches 0 Wisdom, all you have to do is reach it to 0 Con, and then use your Wish spell to permanently Kill it, monitoring the whole thing from the sky, like a cool Mage should do. Don't get your hands dirty.

[Doctor Awkward]

Ability Damage =/= Ability Drain. Mummy rot deals constitution DAMAGE



I'm aware. My point was does the mode of attack employed by allips and wraiths (shadows do nothing to the tarrasque, on account of specifically dealing ability damage) not constitute exactly the type of "incurable wounds" that the tarrasque is immune to? Mummy rot is only one example (and a bizarre one as the tarrasque is also immune to all diseases...)

[Doctor Awkward]

When it reaches 0 Wisdom, all you have to do is reach it to 0 Con, and then use your Wish spell to permanently Kill it, monitoring the whole thing from the sky, like a cool Mage should do. Don't get your hands dirty.

Even if I'm wrong about ability drain, that won't work.

The Regeneration states explicitly that the tarrasque can only be killed by first "raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points)". Per RAW, it cannot be killed any other way, regardless of what other general rules are in place.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even if I'm wrong about ability drain, that won't work.

The Regeneration states explicitly that the tarrasque can only be killed by first "raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points)". Per RAW, it cannot be killed any other way, regardless of what other general rules are in place.It's also not immune to drowning. Feel free to drown it in water, then fill the water with concrete dust and build it into the foundation of a castle somewhere.

[Asmotherion]

Even if I'm wrong about ability drain, that won't work.

The Regeneration states explicitly that the tarrasque can only be killed by first "raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points)". Per RAW, it cannot be killed any other way, regardless of what other general rules are in place.

In any case, I find that dealing with a Kaiju-esue creature happens to be a lot easyer when it is in a coma, and it's technically dying.

Reducing to 0 Con reduces the amount of HP total by 594+240 for a -5 Con Modifier (48 total HD, removing the bonus from Con, x(-5)), Leaving the Tarasue With a Total of 24 HP Total, and at 0 Hp. This means one must bring it to -24 HP to make it Dead before using Wish and make it Permanent.

[Doctor Awkward]

It's also not immune to drowning. Feel free to drown it in water, then fill the water with concrete dust and build it into the foundation of a castle somewhere.

...Okay... even if the Regeneration doesn't cover that as well...

The risk of suffocation from drowning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning) doesn't begin until a number of rounds equal to double the creature's Con score. For the tarrasque, that would be 70.

In addition, the creature must fail a scaling Con check that starts at DC 10. Now ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks) function as "essentially untrained skill checks", meaning a natural 1 is not an automatic failure. A Constitution score of 35 is a +12 modifier, so that's another 3 rounds before the tarrasque even has to roll, and 10 more after that until he is merely at a 50/50 shot of beginning to suffocate.

The point is, unless you somehow construct a watertight 30x30 foot prison entirely out walls of force, I'd wager 73 rounds is more than enough time for it to shred whatever container you are attempting to accomplish this in.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

...Okay... even if the Regeneration doesn't cover that as well...

The risk of suffocation from drowning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning) doesn't begin until a number of rounds equal to double the creature's Con score. For the tarrasque, that would be 70.

In addition, the creature must fail a scaling Con check that starts at DC 10. Now ability checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks) function as "essentially untrained skill checks", meaning a natural 1 is not an automatic failure. A Constitution score of 35 is a +12 modifier, so that's another 3 rounds before the tarrasque even has to roll, and 10 more after that until he is merely at a 50/50 shot of beginning to suffocate.

The point is, unless you somehow construct a watertight 30x30 foot prison entirely out walls of force, I'd wager 73 rounds is more than enough time for it to shred whatever container you are attempting to accomplish this in.Just knock it into deep water and cast a Widened barred forcecage on it. Or do the forcecage thing and bury it via call avalanche. Or forcecage (again) before filling the area with choking smoke (through pyrotechnics, maybe), and burying it in dozens of feet of walls of iron. I'm sure there's more.

[Doctor Awkward]

Just knock it into deep water and cast a Widened barred forcecage on it. Or do the forcecage thing and bury it via call avalanche. Or forcecage (again) before filling the area with choking smoke (through pyrotechnics, maybe), and burying it in dozens of feet of walls of iron. I'm sure there's more.

A Widened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#widenSpell) Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) would occupy a 10th-level spell slot, and thus require epic spellcasting. I don't think the tarrasque can really be considered a "fair" challenge to epic level characters.

EDIT: And upon closer examination is Forcecage even a valid target for Widen? The feat specifies burst, emanation, line, and spread. Forcecage is none of those.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A Widened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#widenSpell) Forcecage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm) would occupy a 10th-level spell slot, and thus require epic spellcasting. I don't think the tarrasque can really be considered a "fair" challenge to epic level characters.

EDIT: And upon closer examination is Forcecage even a valid target for Widen? The feat specifies burst, emanation, line, and spread. Forcecage is none of those.On second thought, try Sculpt Spell and hit it with the ball version. A 40' forcecage ball would work just fine. And it'd only be an 8th level spell! Less, with some proper metamagic reducers.

[King of Nowhere]

The way I read it, the tarrasque is immune to ability drain too, it's just that the designers worded it poorly. It is supposed to be immune to everything except dealing it >859 damage and using miracle/wish.

And all those combo require preparation. If you don't know you''ll be fighting a tarrasque (which is not the case of the god wizard or the batman wizard, who use extensive divinations even before going to the toilet just to know in advance how much toilet paper they need, but it is actually the case of many campaigns), then chances are you may not have anything capable of hurting it enough. If you know in advance and prepare accordingly, of course any encounter is much easier.

And it really depends on the table, but most people play at an optimization level at which they would not solo the tarrasque. that forums are full of builds capable of oneshotting it before level 10 is of little consequence in actual campaigns.

[Asmotherion]

The way I read it, the tarrasque is immune to ability drain too, it's just that the designers worded it poorly. It is supposed to be immune to everything except dealing it >859 damage and using miracle/wish.

And all those combo require preparation. If you don't know you''ll be fighting a tarrasque (which is not the case of the god wizard or the batman wizard, who use extensive divinations even before going to the toilet just to know in advance how much toilet paper they need, but it is actually the case of many campaigns), then chances are you may not have anything capable of hurting it enough. If you know in advance and prepare accordingly, of course any encounter is much easier.

And it really depends on the table, but most people play at an optimization level at which they would not solo the tarrasque. that forums are full of builds capable of oneshotting it before level 10 is of little consequence in actual campaigns.

It is not imune to ability drain by RAW. As a DM, you are free to Homebrew one that is, without informing players of it, and that is a diferent matter. No DM is by any means stricktly binded to keep a creature to their original entry.

My point is, and still stands, that the more you know about D&D, the easyer a challenge gets. A Tarrasque, even at level 20 or 25, if it's your first playthrough, will probably get you killed. If on the other hand it's a standard Tarrasque and you're a 3.5 veteran, it gets a lot easyer, and the DM will need to probably get templates over it to make it a Challenge for you. Perhaps even make it a Flying Creature, just to keep you on your toes.

[Deophaun]

Meh, I prefer just plane shifting the Tarrasque to Faerun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Meh, I prefer just plane shifting the Tarrasque to Faerun.All those epic level spellcasters who are so horribly built that the tarrasque is still considered a massive threat.

[Deophaun]

All those epic level spellcasters who are so horribly built that the tarrasque is still considered a massive threat.
I didn't say I liked Faerun.

[Allanimal]

I do not pull punches and players die because of that.

I’m ok with DMs killing off characters, but when the players die, that’s going a bit far. :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Anything that can resist the draining attacks of undead, or that can hit incorporeal undead? It's really easy to summon shadows and wraiths and stuff to drain the tarrasque into a coma, and there's absolutely nothing it can do about them, except run away.
So I ask again: what monsters? Even accepting the idea that one specific spell from a splatbook can quickly stop the Tarrasque, if you have it available, what high level monsters are immune to that spell which you would also consider a threat?


And far more importantly- when that specific "exploit" is not available, what then? You say it's not immune to drowning, how are you going to arbitrarily drown it? Your responses to this question grow more and more specific, indicating that the Tarrasque is not in fact a pushover, but requires specific countermeasures that a character may or may not have. Even if you're allowed to Sculpt a Forcecage the way you want, how do you propose simply "knocking it into deep water," heck, even if the DM has obligingly started it conveniently next to some deep water? You speak of the Tarrasque as a trivial challenge, but your proposals are non-trivial.

I could make a thread with a list of all the high level monsters to pick from, but no one has yet responded from that direction: just the same old premade anti-Tarrasque plans from every Tarrasque thread. What I want to know is what party is actually capable of no-selling the Tarrasque without a specific anti-Tarrasque trick while simultaneously not doing the same thing to every other comparable monster. I do not think this party exists, because I do not think a monster exists which satisfies the people who think the Tarrasque is a pushover, with the possible exception of those few monsters with full PC class spellcasting.

What I want to know is, how does one claim that a character which can solo a monster of CR equal to their level is not by definition overpowered? Even accepting the idea that such a fight can be expected to be 50/50 (which I obviously do not), has anyone actually proposed that the hypothetical wizard would have a 50/50 shot against anything? No, it's that the PC should just win against the Tarrasque. Against a PC capable of soloing the Tarrasque without the Allip trick, what other monster can possibly compete?

[Luckmann]

[...]

So, if you're a level 20 wizard in a REAL game you play, how do you fair against Balors, Pit Fiends, and Tarrasques?

I would be a wet spot on the polished marble floor of Baator.

I'm stricly low-op, running themes builds and quirky stuff that I only after settling on a concept try to optimize. And I believe that to be more in line with the intent of the game than to build something that is theorycrafted along a long line of assumptions in regards to available items and prestige classes, as well as often being decoid of characterization in terms of feats and "wasted" skill points.

I think example characters also support this, with them often having feats any optimizer would consider superfluous and cited as favouring attacks and actions that could easily be considered inferior.

My point is, and still stands, that the more you know about D&D, the easyer a challenge gets. A Tarrasque, even at level 20 or 25, if it's your first playthrough, will probably get you killed. If on the other hand it's a standard Tarrasque and you're a 3.5 veteran, it gets a lot easyer, and the DM will need to probably get templates over it to make it a Challenge for you. Perhaps even make it a Flying Creature, just to keep you on your toes.How would your character know how to deal with a Tarrasque just because you have played D&D a lot?

[Eldariel]

I would be a wet spot on the polished marble floor of Baator.

I'm stricly low-op, running themes builds and quirky stuff that I only after settling on a concept try to optimize. And I believe that to be more in line with the intent of the game than to build something that is theorycrafted along a long line of assumptions in regards to available items and prestige classes, as well as often being decoid of characterization in terms of feats and "wasted" skill points.

I think example characters also support this, with them often having feats any optimizer would consider superfluous and cited as favouring attacks and actions that could easily be considered inferior.
How would your character know how to deal with a Tarrasque just because you have played D&D a lot?

Dealing with the Tarrasque isn't really rocket science. It's massive, slow, clumsy, dumb as bricks, and completely one-dimensional. Things which are threats on high level are intelligent, equipped, versatile, mobile, well-rounded and threatening at a range. This includes most high level Outsiders, Dragons and Undead (as Undead spellcasters are everywhere) as well as Humanoids (with caster levels; Fighter 20 is a joke particularly with NPC WBL, but casters don't really care that much about WBL particularly with free rein to use consumables).

Against big T, all you need to do is take a quick glance towards it, wonder if you're missing something or if it's in any way surprising, realise it's just what it looks like; a big, stupid jellyfish. Then you just goombastomp it like you would goombastomp a big stupid jellyfish because its weaknesses are precisely where you'd imagine. Pathfinder version is a bit more rounded but also weakened enough that even a Fighter 20 can solo it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-130509.html) despite it supposedly being CR25. No, it's at best CR16-17; it loses to simple numbers and is still one-dimensional.

No matter how theme-built, it's pretty hard to build a level 17 Wizard that lacks a means to beat it; Gate does, Shapechange does, bloody Dominate Monster has a pretty good shot at it (as does repeated application of Magic Jar, which it'll probably never figure out anyways; as a bonus, you can grand theft body it).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I would be a wet spot on the polished marble floor of Baator.

I'm stricly low-op, running themes builds and quirky stuff that I only after settling on a concept try to optimize. And I believe that to be more in line with the intent of the game than to build something that is theorycrafted along a long line of assumptions in regards to available items and prestige classes, as well as often being decoid of characterization in terms of feats and "wasted" skill points.

I think example characters also support this, with them often having feats any optimizer would consider superfluous and cited as favouring attacks and actions that could easily be considered inferior.
The example characters are quite often not even rules legal. They're also generally limited to options from core and the splatbook they appear in.
Also contrary to that interpretation a simple wizard 20 with a good selection of core spells is already pretty damn high-op.
So i'd say it's less deliberate intent and more that they just didn't know any better. It's not like they had years of people discussing things on the internet to fall back on.
But yes, the game assumes something on the low end of optimization. DMs playing high-op generally have to rebuild monsters to be a valid challenge and ignore CR to make encounters "by feel".

Playing high-op is fun though. Or at least a change of pace when you've been playing 3.5 for years.


How would your character know how to deal with a Tarrasque just because you have played D&D a lot?
Because we're talking about wizards and the Tarrasque is a magical beast, so it falls under Knowledge:Arcana.
And because a lot of people can't help metagaming.

[Fizban]

Regarding Dominate Monster: with a 9th level spell and +10 modifier for DC 29 and a +20 will save, that's a 60% chance of the spell failing. This is compounded by SR 32, which depending on your exact caster level might be another 60% spell failure. Multiply the 40% chance of success on each roll and you get all of a 16% chance of success per casting, with a 9th level spell. You have how many 9th level slots?

With DC 32 (starting 18 and +5 tome included), cl 20, and +3 cl from items (Robe of the Archmagi and the ioun stone), the Tarrasque now has a 60% chance of failure and another 60% chance of failure, for a whopping 64% chance to beat save and SR per 9th level slot. You spend 1-2 of your 5-7 slots to beat an encounter that is supposed to use 20% of your resources, yeah that's about on par for rocket tag. You still need to spend some further amount of time and resources to deal with it more permanently, along with however the DM is running Dominate effects. If you're a level 20 party facing the Tarrasque as part of a greater adventure/adventuring day all of that matters and the Tarrasque has done its job.

If you're from the first example more in line with a 17th level party? 16% chance of success on 2 shots, 3 if you're an Enchanter specialist. If you don't get lucky you're gonna have to find some other way to stop it.


Shapechange into an Allip is just the Allip trick by a different means, though at least a 9th level one. Gating something to fight it for you continues to rely on knowing exactly what you need to gate in, and even if you do it still costs 1,000xp to do it, on top of whatever means you intend to use to deal with it more permanently. Justifying perfect knowledge of the Tarrasque via the Knowledge skill- base DC 58 for creature type, +5 per piece of useful information as determined by the DM. Unless the DM agrees that this specific weakness has been previously discovered and is within the information tier you get on your check, then you cannot justify the information with the Knowledge skill. Other information spells take their own time to cast and still basically tell you what the DM wants you to know.

Someone will probably mention Assay Resistance making SR unimportant, and for that, well sure I have no defense. If your power level assumes Assay Resistance is in play, then monsters which rely on SR get a ton weaker. The Tarrasque is one of the few that do rely heavily on SR, so it certainly stands out. But like any other specific spell that suddenly upends a monster, the question of which is in the wrong- the monster or the spell?, continues to apply. If it so happens that other monsters which rely less on SR are less impacted by it, and so introducing Assay Resistance only makes them somewhat weaker, does that mean the Assay Resistance is balanced or the Tarrasque is underpowered? Considering how many high level monsters do have Spell Resistance, I think it's fairly obvious that Assay Resistance is overpowered, but if your game's power level assumes Assay Resistance then the Tarrasque is particularly vulnerable.

[RoboEmperor]

Dealing with the Tarrasque isn't really rocket science. It's massive, slow, clumsy, dumb as bricks, and completely one-dimensional. Things which are threats on high level are intelligent, equipped, versatile, mobile, well-rounded and threatening at a range. This includes most high level Outsiders, Dragons and Undead (as Undead spellcasters are everywhere) as well as Humanoids (with caster levels; Fighter 20 is a joke particularly with NPC WBL, but casters don't really care that much about WBL particularly with free rein to use consumables).

Against big T, all you need to do is take a quick glance towards it, wonder if you're missing something or if it's in any way surprising, realise it's just what it looks like; a big, stupid jellyfish. Then you just goombastomp it like you would goombastomp a big stupid jellyfish because its weaknesses are precisely where you'd imagine. Pathfinder version is a bit more rounded but also weakened enough that even a Fighter 20 can solo it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-130509.html) despite it supposedly being CR25. No, it's at best CR16-17; it loses to simple numbers and is still one-dimensional.

No matter how theme-built, it's pretty hard to build a level 17 Wizard that lacks a means to beat it; Gate does, Shapechange does, bloody Dominate Monster has a pretty good shot at it (as does repeated application of Magic Jar, which it'll probably never figure out anyways; as a bonus, you can grand theft body it).

How does Gate do it?

[Eldariel]

How does Gate do it?

I dunno, you can Gate in a Solar and wait for Big T to roll a natural 1 vs. slaying arrow (comes complete with the Miracle/Wish, buffs, etc. - it can likely find a more efficient way of killing it) or like gate in a Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) and have Big T try a DC 43 Will-save or perhaps a Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) or whatever. Too many options, really. Anything generically good can beat Big T and you don't need much in terms of Knowledge-checks to that end.

[RoboEmperor]

I dunno, you can Gate in a Solar and wait for Big T to roll a natural 1 vs. slaying arrow (comes complete with the Miracle/Wish, buffs, etc. - it can likely find a more efficient way of killing it) or like gate in a Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) and have Big T try a DC 43 Will-save or perhaps a Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane) or whatever. Too many options, really.

Abominations are Divine Rank 0 making them Deities so you cannot gate them in.

I guess Solar would work, he's got 4 arrows a round so that's 80 arrows for a natural 1. Rolling a 2 or higher 80 times in a row is actually 1.65% chance.

But no Abominations. They're deities.

[Cosi]

So I ask again: what monsters? Even accepting the idea that one specific spell from a splatbook can quickly stop the Tarrasque, if you have it available, what high level monsters are immune to that spell which you would also consider a threat?

Probably the Balor, which is possessed of a magic weapon that enables it to harm incorporeal creatures, mobility options that prevent you from kiting it, and offenses that can threaten a 20th level character. And has been mentioned in this thread. There are high level monsters that are serious threats, the Tarrasque just isn't one of them.


And far more importantly- when that specific "exploit" is not available, what then?

"What if I ban all the tactics you use to win until you lose" is not an argument anyone should find compelling. Special pleading that whatever beats the challenge is illegal is obviously ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Fizban]

I dunno, you can Gate in a Solar and wait for Big T to roll a natural 1 vs. slaying arrow (comes complete with the Miracle/Wish, buffs, etc. - it can likely find a more efficient way of killing it)
If the Solar can't stop it any faster than anyone else, how is that an upgrade? The Solar's given list of prepared spells contains nothing in particular that would help. It has to sit there and chop through DR or fish for failed saves like anyone else. The scenario where it's already in ur base eating ur dudes, as it were, is perfectly valid.

Also, responding to "How does it do the thing you're so sure it does" with "I dunno, something"- is basically my entire point. The culture of "wizards always win" relies heavily on that sort of thing. If you think Gate does the job then it's up to you to prove it.


Reverse Gravity isn't off the hook either btw- even if series of Reverse Gravity spells might be able to get the Tarrasque all the way out of arm's reach of the ground, for a couple of minutes, that's a whole lot of 7th+ level spells just to make it stop moving for a couple of minutes (Arcane Spellsurge also 7th). So you've got it to stop moving for a bit, now what? Entering melee defeats the whole purpose of getting it stuck in mid-air. Char-op tells me that non-bow builds are terrible at shooting, does your party specifically include an archer? How specialized is their build and gear going to need to be to actually put the Tarrasque down within the time limit?

Probably the Balor, which is possessed of a magic weapon that enables it to harm incorporeal creatures, mobility options that prevent you from kiting it, and offenses that can threaten a 20th level character. And has been mentioned in this thread. There are high level monsters that are serious threats, the Tarrasque just isn't one of them.
Do you accept that the Tarrasque doesn't need to personally threaten the PCs? Because, as has already been stated, that is the whole point of the thing. That it must be stopped rather than survived.

"What if I ban all the tactics you use to win until you lose" is not an argument anyone should find compelling. Special pleading that whatever beats the challenge is illegal is obviously ridiculous and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Pointing out that a monster was not designed around a spell that was printed years later, which just so happens to summon the one thing that got left off its list of immunities, not so ridiculous no.

So, you're putting forth the Balor on the criteria of it not being vulnerable to the Allip trick. So, your expected party which considers the Tarrasque a non-threat but does consider the Balor a threat does so based only on the criteria that they specifically know this weakness and carry the summon undead spell to throw an Allip at the Tarrasque. They have no other game changing plans to defeat it? Just that one trick? Then they haven't actually proven anything other than what we already know: one designer missed one specific immunity and another designer wrote a spell that the internet noticed can exploit that missing immunity.
(This is why I said doing it without the exploit is the important part).

The funny thing is, Shapechange and Gate are not only both core, and thus making them valid point of contention that the Tarrasque might have been badly designed from the beginning, but they are also 9th level spells. If the only counters to the Tarrasque are an exploit that could have been fixed with about 5 words of errata, and a pair of 9th level spells widely regarded as the most powerful in the game. . . . that's not a badly designed high level obstacle. If anything it's a perfectly designed high level obstacle.

If the only response to my challenge of "What normal party no-sells the Tarrasque while still being challenged by standard monsters at that level (and not using the Allip exploit)," is "Parties that Gate in Solars," -that is not a party that is challenged by Balors or Pit Fiends either.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So I ask again: what monsters?Anything with level-appropriate spellcasting. Also anything with actual defenses worthy of being anywhere near that CR. Anything with intelligence greater than that of a particularly retarded orc that uses magic items. Anything with skills high enough to escape from easily-laid traps, such as stealth skills and Jump/Escape Artist. Anything with teleportation/plane-hopping magic, though that's counterable fairly trivially -- it does, however, require additional resource expenditure.

Many outsiders hit most or all of these.


Even accepting the idea that one specific spell from a splatbook can quickly stop the Tarrasque, if you have it available, what high level monsters are immune to that spell which you would also consider a threat?The PHB is not a "splatbook." Forcecage is available to any wizard of high enough level to cast it that hasn't banned the school. And there's nothing "immune" to forcecage unless it's simply too large to fit in, as it doesn't affect the target directly, and even being too large only makes it unable to be affected indirectly. And even then, Sculpt Spell helps with that issue.


And far more importantly- when that specific "exploit" is not available, what then?"If you find ways to neutralize it, I'll ban them, and I'll keep banning them until you're useless" is not a valid argument. It's not even worth responding to in the way you're asking me to.


You say it's not immune to drowning, how are you going to arbitrarily drown it?Teleportation to the bottom of a lake or the sea? Plane shift it to the Elemental Planes of Water or Earth? Create avalanche? Transmute rock to mud? (Feel free to follow that up with transmute mud to rock.) Summoning an earth monolith to drag it down into the depths of the earth? Divination magic beforehand to find the right location coupled with some bait to draw its attention coupled with Chained disintegrates under its feet to make it fall into an Underdark cavern filled with water?


Your responses to this question grow more and more specific, indicating that the Tarrasque is not in fact a pushover, but requires specific countermeasures that a character may or may not have.You're arguing that I'm being too specific with my answers, but you're not happy with answers like, "drown it," either, because you then demand clarification which you're then annoyed by when it's "too specific." Can't be specific, can't be general. What do you want?


Even if you're allowed to Sculpt a Forcecage the way you want, how do you propose simply "knocking it into deep water," heck, even if the DM has obligingly started it conveniently next to some deep water? You speak of the Tarrasque as a trivial challenge, but your proposals are non-trivial.It's a 20th level wizard that can rewrite reality. How is anything it can do ever going to be trivial? There have been numerous suggestions on how to take it down without a problem, but you keep moving the goalposts farther and farther away because you don't like them. This is not a valid way to debate, I hope you realize.


I could make a thread with a list of all the high level monsters to pick from, but no one has yet responded from that direction: just the same old premade anti-Tarrasque plans from every Tarrasque thread.That's because they work. The tarrasque is a badly designed puzzle monster, one that has a lot of solutions the designers didn't account for, making it absurdly easy to defeat in ways other than killing it. Wizards are apparently supposed to use up their complement of spells blasting it, while a single spell can negate it (dominate monster, Sculpted forcecage, plane shift, gate, shapechange, and several others), but you rail against anything but "beat it down manually and cast wish."


What I want to know is what party is actually capable of no-selling the Tarrasque without a specific anti-Tarrasque trick while simultaneously not doing the same thing to every other comparable monster. I do not think this party exists, because I do not think a monster exists which satisfies the people who think the Tarrasque is a pushover, with the possible exception of those few monsters with full PC class spellcasting.Here's a way to take it down with a party of 5th level wizards. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=302428&postcount=175) I assure you that a 20th level wizard is much, much nastier than that.


What I want to know is, how does one claim that a character which can solo a monster of CR equal to their level is not by definition overpowered? Even accepting the idea that such a fight can be expected to be 50/50 (which I obviously do not), has anyone actually proposed that the hypothetical wizard would have a 50/50 shot against anything? No, it's that the PC should just win against the Tarrasque. Against a PC capable of soloing the Tarrasque without the Allip trick, what other monster can possibly compete?It's a level 20 wizard. It's pretty well established that just giving one a decent spell selection means it's overpowered, pretty much by definition.

[Asmotherion]

I would be a wet spot on the polished marble floor of Baator.

I'm stricly low-op, running themes builds and quirky stuff that I only after settling on a concept try to optimize. And I believe that to be more in line with the intent of the game than to build something that is theorycrafted along a long line of assumptions in regards to available items and prestige classes, as well as often being decoid of characterization in terms of feats and "wasted" skill points.

I think example characters also support this, with them often having feats any optimizer would consider superfluous and cited as favouring attacks and actions that could easily be considered inferior.
How would your character know how to deal with a Tarrasque just because you have played D&D a lot?

It's an age old debate about what is or is not metagaming.

Basically, My PC may be clueless about a Tarasque, but I as a Player may pick up the Hints, and have my PC do the reserch needed because of it. As a player AND a PC I may then devise a better strategy to deal with such a threat based on the knowlage my PC Gathered, preparing the right spells etc.

Limiting your Perspective as a PC can be a Pain in the Head, and it's a lot easyer for DMs to homebrew stuff when they want you to not know Monster Stats.

[Efrate]

Just dump it on another plane and be done with it? project image to get close and cast, plane shift to get it away and wash your hands of it. using 7ths. Its only plus 20 will. You get enough shots. if not abusing time traits of planes gets you what you need pretty instantly. there is probably a way to widen gate enough that you can just bait it through, needs to be 50 ft in diameter iirc. let the abyss deal with it. or where ever.

[Fizban]

The PHB is not a "splatbook."
I've been taking it as a given that people talking about the Allip exploit are assuming the summon undead spell- if it's Shapechange then there still remains the fact that it's an exploit they probably learned on the internet, but a 9th level spell is a 9th level spell.

Teleportation to the bottom of a lake or the sea? Plane shift it to the Elemental Planes of Water or Earth? Create avalanche? Summoning an earth monolith to drag it down into the depths of the earth? Divination magic beforehand to find the right location coupled with some bait to draw its attention coupled with Chained disintegrates under its feet to make it fall into an Underdark cavern filled with water?
Teleportation and Plane Shifting both allow saves and spell resistance and often require touch range, you'd be better off sticking with Dominate Monster. Call Avalanche is only capable of burying Large creatures. Earh Monoliths have a grapple of +55 vs the Tarrasque's +81, making them completely incapable of grabbing on. Chained Disintigrate into a pit, now there's something interesting, and actually a spell that I could see someone preparing!- now prove that such a cavern is likely to exist*, because if you don't have a source, the DM gets to say no.

You're arguing that I'm being too specific with my answers, but you're not happy with answers like, "drown it," either, because you then ask for clarification which you're then annoyed by when it's "too specific." Can't be specific, can't be generic. What do you want?
I want answers that aren't tailor made for the challenge- what a "normal" party would actually respond with that proves the Tarrasque is inadequate, and the less rooted in exploit or cheesy rulings the better. I want someone to put their money where their mouth is and prove it. If you want to drown the Tarrasque then you'd best be able to tell me why I'm not going to be able to stop you without a severe breach of the gaming contract, because your claim that the Tarrasque is a bad monster hinges you on being able to crush it cheaply and easily.

It's a 20th level wizard that can rewrite reality. How is anything it can do ever going to be trivial? There have been numerous suggestions on how to take it down without a problem, but you keep moving the goalposts farther and farther away because you don't like them. This is not a valid way to debate, I hope you realize.
Your drowning suggestions rely on metamagic'd combinations and terrain, which are specific builds (yes, spell selection is part of a build) that are super effective vs the Tarrasque, or DM cooperation- that's what makes them non-trivial. Casting Dominate Monster is trivial, but has a variable chance of success. Casting Gate is trivial, except for the cost of 1,000xp and admission that you're willing to Gate away all your problems. Casting Shapechange is trivial, but the only real certain kill there is back to the Allip exploit which you ought to have no way of knowing. And the more spell slots you're devoting to the job, the more you're admitting that the Tarrasque has met the definition of a challenge by forcing you to burn resources (it supplied the threat by threatening the town, and anyone who actually dared enter melee with it).

Trying to get people to prove what they say tends to look a lot like moving the goalposts, yes. Because, like I said in my last post (probably while you were typing), the "wizard always wins" culture likes to rattle off a list of spells as if that magically solves things, without actually proving that their magic will solve things. You can accuse me of constantly shooting down everything, but what happens when you try something like that in a game? The DM takes that input and decides what happens, not based on what the player wants to happen, but based on whatever they've set up. You want to knock the Tarrasque into the sea, you have to do it. You want to dump it into an underdark lake, you have to do it. So prove that you can do it, not because the DM let you, but because the rules say you can just do it. And if and when you do so, I'll look at how many spells you spent and how much rampaging the Tarrasque did and decide whether it was a bad monster or not. The same way any DM would.


That's because they work. The tarrasque is a badly designed puzzle monster, one that has a lot of solutions the designers didn't account for, making it absurdly easy to defeat in ways other than killing it. Wizards are apparently supposed to use up their complement of spells blasting it. A single spell can negate it (dominate monster, Sculpted forcecage, plane shift, gate, shapechange, and several others), but you rail against anything but "beat it down manually and cast wish."
I have now addressed the whole list, to recap- dominate percentages, water requirement, plane shift worse than dominate, gate admits you're not evaluating the caster anymore, shapechange is a more expensive way to exploit the loophole you don't know about.
Edit: you went and added more- Transmute Rock to Mud requires it to be standing on unworked rock and while it is capable of enough volume to cover the whole body, fails to account for just hoisting yourself out by the arms. Mud to Rock explicitly allows a reflex save to escape and has a lower DC than all previous spells which the Tarrasque succeeds on a 2. And while we're at it, cave-ins, Call Avalance? The DM can allow a buried character to free themselves with a DC 25 strength check- I allow the Tarrasque to do so.

Here's a way to take it down with a party of 5th level wizards. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=302428&postcount=175) I assure you that a 20th level wizard is much, much nastier than that.
Yes, a forumite can read the statblock and figure out exactly how to take it down with some number of people and resources that were perfectly designed for the job. As to whether a 20th level wizard is nastier?

That's the whole point of the thread now, isn't it? The same point it always comes back to. Your idea of a 20th level wizard apparently doesn't match that of the game's. I say that your wizard is overpowered because they defeat monsters cheaper and easier than they should, and you say it's not the wizard's fault the monsters are badly designed. I consider the DMG and MM supreme in defining power levels, you consider the PHB and any other character building resources supreme. We will not be agreeing on this.


It's a level 20 wizard. It's pretty well established that just giving one a decent spell selection means it's overpowered, pretty much by definition.
Well then we have nothing to argue about in that department: we both agree that there are certain spells which are overpowered, and that characters can be overpowered. By using the term "overpowered" you acknowledge that the game has an expected power level, and by playing outside of that power level certain monsters won't work as advertised. These are all true regardless of our personal preference of power level.


How good the Tarrasque is at their job will still come down to what people think its job is- it's abundantly clear that most people arguing against the Tarrasque don't consider a monster significant unless it can personally hunt down and kill PCs of a certain power level.


*Actually don't, because Chain spell doesn't give you the ability to hit things you don't have line of effect to, so the deepest pit you can make is 20', assuming the first target is fully disintegrated before the secondary targets are chosen.

Just dump it on another plane and be done with it? project image to get close and cast, plane shift to get it away and wash your hands of it. using 7ths. Its only plus 20 will. You get enough shots. if not abusing time traits of planes gets you what you need pretty instantly. there is probably a way to widen gate enough that you can just bait it through, needs to be 50 ft in diameter iirc. let the abyss deal with it. or where ever.
Plane Shift: with DC 27 and +20 vs SR 32 has a 12% chance of success, costs one 1+n 7th level slots for the mock 17th. Mock 20th, DC 29 and +23, 24% chance per Plane Shift. Cumulative odds still require quite a few castings to close in on surety.

Now tell me why you had nothing but Project Image and Plane Shift prepared in your high level slots- since as a 20th level caster, the Tarrasque is something you're expected to deal with before lunch.

You may of course at any time choose to involve your party members- at which point the wizard admits they need a party because they cannot solo the encounter.

Edit: but seriously, if we're actually going to slug this out over the Tarrasque someone should start a separate thread for it. I need to go to bed though, and it's not my proof. And there's probably gonna be three more posts before my internet reconnects and I can actually save this edit :smallsigh:

[Cosi]

Do you accept that the Tarrasque doesn't need to personally threaten the PCs? Because, as has already been stated, that is the whole point of the thing. That it must be stopped rather than survived.

The question of how appropriate the Tarrasque is as a natural disaster is utterly irrelevant to how appropriate it is as a combat encounter. Are Elemental Weirds actually correctly CRed because you can defeat the encounter "there's an Elemental Weird somewhere in the wilderness between points A and B" with teleport at 12th level? Of course not. Because CR measures the creature's danger in a fight, not some other engagement.


Pointing out that a monster was not designed around a spell that was printed years later, which just so happens to summon the one thing that got left off its list of immunities, not so ridiculous no.

Sure, summon undead didn't exist when the Tarrasque was printed. But the Tarrasque existed when summon undead was printed. It seems to me that your position is the Tarrasque is correctly CRed, and therefore anything that allows you to beat it easily must be unfair. Instead, you should look at the tools the game gives people, and ask yourself whether the Tarrasque actually has the abilities necessary to challenge characters that use the abilities the game provides them at 20th level.


So, you're putting forth the Balor on the criteria of it not being vulnerable to the Allip trick. So, your expected party which considers the Tarrasque a non-threat but does consider the Balor a threat does so based only on the criteria that they specifically know this weakness and carry the summon undead spell to throw an Allip at the Tarrasque.

The Tarrasque's weakness to the Allip is hardly unique. Any magical beast without an energy attack or the appropriate immunity goes down to the summoned Allip. Are we supposed to assume that players will know exactly enough to expect that the Tarrasque will be immune to lots of things, but not that it won't be immune to the specific thing they try?


They have no other game changing plans to defeat it? Just that one trick? Then they haven't actually proven anything other than what we already know: one designer missed one specific immunity and another designer wrote a spell that the internet noticed can exploit that missing immunity.

It turns out you only need to win once. How many alternate tactics are your PCs obliged to provide you with before you allow them to defeat encounters?


If the only response to my challenge of "What normal party no-sells the Tarrasque while still being challenged by standard monsters at that level (and not using the Allip exploit)," is "Parties that Gate in Solars," -that is not a party that is challenged by Balors or Pit Fiends either.

A fight with a Balor starts with you getting dazed, and the continues to you being dazed for the rest of the encounter while the Balor's summons or minions wail on you until you die. The ability to gate in a Solar doesn't really help you there.


I want answers that aren't tailor made for the challenge- what a "normal" party would actually respond with that proves the Tarrasque is inadequate, and the less rooted in exploit or cheesy rulings the better.

This is just moving the goalposts. Who cares if the character has dedicated resources to beating a specific challenge? It's only a problem if they can't beat other challenges. dominate monster isn't a bad plan against things that aren't the Tarrasque.


which are specific builds (yes, spell selection is part of a build) that are super effective vs the Tarrasque

Do those builds give up comparable equity against other encounters? If they don't, how is "you can beat the Tarrasque easily with tweaks that don't dramatically weaken you against other encounters" different from "the Tarrasque is too weak"?


Casting Gate is trivial, except for the cost of 1,000xp

This was not a good argument that gate is fine when the designers made it and it isn't a good argument now. If you spend 1000 xp to win an encounter and that encounter gets you more than 1000xp, you're still coming out ahead.


Casting Shapechange is trivial, but the only real certain kill there is back to the Allip exploit which you ought to have no way of knowing.

Again, that "exploit" works against huge swaths of monsters. It's not at all a stretch that a 20th level character (who will have had shapechange for three or four levels) might have at some point noticed that incorporeal forms are good against beast-type enemies, or that the Allip was particularly fit for purpose.


gate admits you're not evaluating the caster anymore

Sorry remind me who cast gate? I'm pretty sure it was "the caster", but I could be confused.


Your idea of a 20th level wizard apparently doesn't match that of the game's.

That's weird, because I built a 20th level Wizard using only resources the game provided for that task.


I say that your wizard is overpowered because they defeat monsters cheaper and easier than they should,

Your position (that monsters are balanced around a party) is categorically incapable of making that judgment.

[eggynack]

If you can find an allip out in the wild by some means (maybe through divinations) then there are various ways to get said allip under your control at pretty low level. All of that is doable in core. It also really doesn't matter that a given spell has a low likelihood of killing the tarrasque. The reason the tarrasque is a dumb monster isn't because it happens to lack ability drain immunity or the capacity to harm an allip. The reason the tarrasque is a dumb monster is because it has such limited capacity to harm your garden variety creature with a fly speed. A lot of creatures without the ability to harm an allip can still not be taken out by a wizard casting summon undead. Because those creatures have a way to harm an invisible wizard flying a decent distance above the battlefield. As long as you have any means whatsoever of taking out a tarrasque, at any chance of success over the course of a day, then the answer to the question, "What common wizard spell is capable of defeating the tarrasque?" is a trivial one. Fly. You get a decent distance away, prepare one of the spells that can let you win, return to the field of battle, launch that spell, and repeat until you win. Yeah, it's a little cheap, but it's effective at pretty low level, and possible for the majority of wizards out there, almost ignoring both book access and level (with more of the former probably helping with the latter).

[Deophaun]

I want answers that aren't tailor made for the challenge-
Here's the problem with that: the Tarrasque is a Colossal beast that moves at a whopping 2 mph. Barring some jerk plane shifting it into the middle of Waterdeep, ::ahem:: you are going to know about it and have time to prepare a countermeasure before it reaches a population center that you do not have time to evacuate. People can outrun the Tarrasque with a leisurely stroll as long as they don't let it get close enough to provoke a rush, so getting a random village to pack up and leave once they see the Tarrasque's head peek above the surrounding forest isn't that big of a deal.

The Tarrasque's weakness to the Allip is hardly unique. Any magical beast without an energy attack or the appropriate immunity goes down to the summoned Allip.
Not really. Incorporeal creatures can be hurt by "creatures that strike as magic weapons," and the only things I know of in game that resembles that description are creatures with DR/magic or DR/epic, of which the Tarrasque is one.

[Fizban]

One more for the road then.

The question of how appropriate the Tarrasque is as a natural disaster is utterly irrelevant to how appropriate it is as a combat encounter. Are Elemental Weirds actually correctly CRed because you can defeat the encounter "there's an Elemental Weird somewhere in the wilderness between points A and B" with teleport at 12th level? Of course not. Because CR measures the creature's danger in a fight, not some other engagement.
Actually I just took a look over the Encounter section again and wouldn't you know it? No mention of fights. Implied by the phrase "wipe them out" regarding resource usage and by the difficulty ratings based on probability of death, but never directly says it's a fight. Not until the end, when they describe several possible types of encounters, only one of which is combat.

If PCs don't care about anything other than their own survival then the Tarrasque isn't a good challenge for them. Luckily, lots of PCs care about things other than their own survival.

Instead, you should look at the tools the game gives people
The false "The Game" construct- arguing from the position that "the game" consists of every book the arguer wants included. The Game is not, cannot, and has never tried to be balanced based on the sum total of everything printed at once. The only logical position to argue from regarding balance of The Game is the root: DMG, MM1, (PHB obviously) and whatever specific books are being evaluated. The more books you add, the more you accept responsibility for changing the game. The Game did not give people Summon Undead- a DM that gives their players Summon Undead and then complains about the Tarrasque (or anything else) being vulnerable to it has only themselves to blame. As I have said before, many times.

The Tarrasque's weakness to the Allip is hardly unique. Any magical beast without an energy attack or the appropriate immunity goes down to the summoned Allip. Are we supposed to assume that players will know exactly enough to expect that the Tarrasque will be immune to lots of things, but not that it won't be immune to the specific thing they try?
So you're putting forth that your idea of a normal party is one that kills everything with summoned Allips, as their first resort? That's a mighty specific "normal" party you've got there.

A fight with a Balor starts with you getting dazed, and the continues to you being dazed for the rest of the encounter while the Balor's summons or minions wail on you until you die. The ability to gate in a Solar doesn't really help you there.
Actually a fight with a Balor starts with you rolling initiative, during which it is likely one or more of your four party members will go first- initiative is rolled even if it teleports directly into the middle of the party, you don't get surprise rounds from that. Depending on sequencing there are a number of options to prevent it from using Blasphemy, with a much lower hit dice there's better grounds to argue the party will see it coming, and by attempting to close to Blasphemy range it has left itself open to more of the party while being far less durable than the Tarrasque. Sure, it's a good monster, doesn't mean the Tarrasque can't do its job.

This is just moving the goalposts. Who cares if the character has dedicated resources to beating a specific challenge? It's only a problem if they can't beat other challenges. dominate monster isn't a bad plan against things that aren't the Tarrasque.
You seem to have missed the party where I agreed that casting a number of Dominate Monsters was a fair response and cost.

Do those builds give up comparable equity against other encounters? If they don't, how is "you can beat the Tarrasque easily with tweaks that don't dramatically weaken you against other encounters" different from "the Tarrasque is too weak"?
Well the bigger question is whether any of those builds are actually as super effective as advertised, but as above re: you allowed the content you're responsible for the consequences. It's a little asterisk that goes next to the winner's entry, a footnote acknowledging that they couldn't do it without that extra content.

Assuming the wizard has a silver bullet that cost them nothing, they still have to have it prepared. No 20th level wizard prepares Project Image and a dozen copies of Plane Shift, and that's the only one that's actually functioning at the moment.

The rest either requires no response or has been covered.



Here's the problem with that: the Tarrasque is a Colossal beast that moves at a whopping 2 mph. Barring some jerk plane shifting it into the middle of Waterdeep, ::ahem:: you are going to know about it and have time to prepare a countermeasure before it reaches a population center that you do not have time to evacuate. People can outrun the Tarrasque with a leisurely stroll as long as they don't let it get close enough to provoke a rush, so getting a random village to pack up and leave once they see the Tarrasque's head peek above the surrounding forest isn't that big of a deal.
Except some jerk Plane Shifting it into the middle of Waterdeep is a perfectly valid encounter the DM could spring on you at 20th level. And having it awaken from it's slumber beneath a population center is also perfectly valid. Cities are full of crowds which don't get to flee at full speed, and some people are dumb, and some will try to hide, and so on. Being forced to evacuate a population center is no joke, the economic damage could have all sorts of knock-on effects, diplomatic repercussions, just raw casualties from people stampeding over each other.. . And Ao forbid the DM gives you, say, a Tarrasque that's been Dominated by the BBEG and is actually on a specific mission.

[Deophaun]

Except some jerk Plane Shifting it into the middle of Waterdeep is a perfectly valid encounter the DM could spring on you at 20th level.
If that's the sort of game you play, sure. Campaigns that have depth beyond "a wizard did it" tend not to do random stuff like that, however.

And having it awaken from it's slumber beneath a population center is also perfectly valid.
Not really, no:

The location of the tarrasque’s lair is a mystery, and the beast remains dormant much of the time. Its torporous slumber usually lasts 6d4 months before it leaves its lair for a brief hunting foray lasting 1d3 days. Once every decade or so, the monster is particularly active, staying awake for 1d2 weeks. Thereafter, it slumbers for at least 4d6 years unless disturbed.
So you have a max of 24 years after Big T has rampaged across the land for people to build a city over it and forget it was there. Not bloody likely.

Now, there is an adventure that relies on a town that has enslaved Big T underneath it, but in that circumstance, if the party doesn't get clues that they are dealing with Big T before it breaks its bindings and annihilates the city, that would be a poorly structured adventure. If there are clues and the party is just too oblivious or unquestioning, then they'd probably have a tough time regardless.

[Fizban]

Alright, point to Deophaun for checking the entry (I'd been pulling numbers from srd for speed), I never noticed it was that specific on the hibernation cycle. The location being a mystery still leaves some room, but it does stretch credulity to say it's being run by the book if it's that close to a town. That does pretty well lock it in as a proper boss monster though, which means a sub 20th party, whose options haven't been looking so good.

Unless it's being used along with other CR 20 elements as part of the adventure conclusion, and that's a situation I don't think I've ever seen anyone really address.

[Cosi]

Not until the end, when they describe several possible types of encounters, only one of which is combat.

Yeah, but none of those are "it gets a perfect ambush that no ability you have can possibly prevent".


The false "The Game" construct- arguing from the position that "the game" consists of every book the arguer wants included.

Wow, I guess you should tell that to the company that published Heroes of Horror and described it in their own words as "a rules supplement for the Dungeons and Dragons Roleplaying Game." Next argument please.


So you're putting forth that your idea of a normal party is one that kills everything with summoned Allips, as their first resort? That's a mighty specific "normal" party you've got there.

No, I'm just observing that it's not terribly honest of you to act like using a tactic that works against creatures like the Tarrasque against the Tarrasque is some kind of exploit. It isn't like there's no other instance where a summoned Allip would win a fight.


You seem to have missed the party where I agreed that casting a number of Dominate Monsters was a fair response and cost.

It's almost like the specific point I made (that dominate monster works against other stuff) was an instance of a general principle (that anti-Tarrasque tactics are low cost and do not disproportionately weaken you against other enemies). Unless your contention is that the fourth level spell slot you spent to summon an Allip was going to be critical in your efforts to defeat a Pit Fiend?


Well the bigger question is whether any of those builds are actually as super effective as advertised, but as above re: you allowed the content you're responsible for the consequences. It's a little asterisk that goes next to the winner's entry, a footnote acknowledging that they couldn't do it without that extra content.

Yes, you used the tools you used. I'm sure that whatever argument was presented you would locate some aspect that you could special plead about because you're not arguing honestly. No one else should care, because as noted the people who are actually allowed to decide which things are legitimate parts of Dungeons and Dragons (the designers) said this thing was.


Except some jerk Plane Shifting it into the middle of Waterdeep is a perfectly valid encounter the DM could spring on you at 20th level.

I would like you to show me the point the Tarrasque's stat block where it has plane shift as a listed ability. I expect you won't be able to do this (since it doesn't), and that should indicate to you that "it gets plane shifted there" is not an appropriate start for an encounter with the Tarrasque. It is, you might say, an unintended exploit.

[Deophaun]

I would like you to show me the point the Tarrasque's stat block where it has plane shift as a listed ability
Don't rag on Fizban over this. I brought it up, and it was in reference to my preferred way of dealing with the Tarrasque.

[Cosi]

Don't rag on Fizban over this. I brought it up, and it was in reference to my preferred way of dealing with the Tarrasque.

He's the one insisting that the only valid encounter with the Tarrasque is one where it gets to perfectly surprise you in the middle of an inhabited area. I'm just pointing out that the arguments he's making in service of that aren't very good. I don't view it as "ragging him" so much as "calling out a bad argument".

[Elkad]

Big T can be beaten by just spamming your collection of SaveOrLose spells at him, even if you are stuck in a low-ceiling cavern.

Oh sure, you have to beat SR and maybe get him to fail the save, but you'll be 1 in 4 or so on that even without Assay.
So you just have to live for a few rounds while you rip through your collection of spells until one sticks.


Assuming you aren't trapped in a small room with it, it's terribly easy to kite.
Live through it's surprise round. It's OK to get swallowed (actually it might be preferable if you have some Verbal-only spells to try from inside - like Irresistible Dance - it reduces the damage output a LOT).
Your invisible tumbling Imp scrambles for range, possibly taking a Run action. It just has to live this round and get some distance.

Big T's turn again. Your Imp is invisible, so even a small zigzag will have BigT randomly attacking the wrong squares, assuming he even noticed it.

Next round your Imp UMDs Benign Transposition to move you to range, and then Tumbles a few squares in a random direction. (Still Invisible)
Your turn. Optionally, Timestop and put up a buffstack. Move even farther and cast a SoD.

You stroll away at your normal 40-60' walk speed and cast anything medium range or better at it until it fails a save.
Your Imp stays max Benign Transposition range from you, with a readied action to swap places if BigT uses a 300' RushCharge or otherwise gets within 40' of you.

When you stick something that disables it for a few rounds, break out the scrolls of Imprisonment and chain them until one works.

[Calthropstu]

I pull punches. I'm a total cupcake of a DM. I mean, I try to challenge my players and give them tough objectives, but I usually want the PCs to succeed, and I'm not really savvy enough in villain design to regularly make them able to stand up well against the PCs.

To me, the best parts of the game are the storytelling and the creativity: the achievements and the competition don't really motivate me much, so I just try to make things entertaining and fun, and at least give the feel of a villain or monster trying to kill the heroes.

So, when someone asks "how powerful are you supposed to be?" I really have no idea how to answer that question, because the game has never really been about power to me. Since I play exclusively online, I usually have enough time to build and tailor encounters to my players (part of the creativity I enjoy is customizing monsters and NPCs), so the PCs' power level usually ends up being appropriate.

I was running an ap, so the monster encounters were made for me. I ran them in ways that forced te pcs to retreat again and again.

They had power, and obliterated encounters that should have destroyed them. But other encounters really gave them a hard time.

It's about realizing the party strengths and weaknesses. I can't count the number of times I nearly tpk'd them because of glaring holes in their defenses which the enemy studied and exploited.

It's not just about what spells you have or when to use them. It's about tactics. It's about movement, which enemy to attack and when, which spell to maximize effect, how to make the battlefield work for you.

A lot of monsters have intelligence and wisdom scores MUCH higher than our own. Odds are they can think of tactics we wouldn't dream of... So they are being nerfed just by the gm controlling them. So if I can think of a strategy, odds are they can too.

I LOVE the strategy aspect of D&D. So if I kill a pc or 2... or 5... along the way? Cool.

That said, a tpk is generally bad.

[martixy]

I'm not sure if someone already covered that(I won't read through 3 pages of wall-of-text posts), but from a practical standpoint, monsters are NOT a balance point for the game. It's your fellow players, to the extent, you or they are not okay with the current situation.

I'd move on to theory, but OP's long gone and there no point in getting in on this internet shouting match.

[magicalmagicman]

I'm not sure if someone already covered that(I won't read through 3 pages of wall-of-text posts), but from a practical standpoint, monsters are NOT a balance point for the game. It's your fellow players, to the extent, you or they are not okay with the current situation.

I'd move on to theory, but OP's long gone and there no point in getting in on this internet shouting match.

Actually I'm not long gone. I'm still looking for more opinions on the original topic but yeah the Tarrasque discussion is off-topic. The first one wasn't, but the allip debat is.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually I'm not long gone. I'm still looking for more opinions on the original topic but yeah the Tarrasque discussion is off-topic. The first one wasn't, but the allip debat is.I guess I should avoid responding to the tarrasque stuff, then.

[magicalmagicman]

I guess I should avoid responding to the tarrasque stuff, then.

No, it's fine. respond to your heart's content. The thread's run it's course.

[martixy]

Actually I'm not long gone. I'm still looking for more opinions on the original topic but yeah the Tarrasque discussion is off-topic. The first one wasn't, but the allip debat is.

In that case, on the original topic, I'd wager someone who isn't just dropped in/rocketed to L20 or other such campaign anomalies, should have built up enough familiarity with the game by that point to be able to solo a CR20 a good amount of the time.

So yea, in a REAL game, as you mention you'd generally have historical context, both meta(as in familiarity with the game) and in-world, apart from mechanics(such as allies and various other accumulated resources) which should generally make a single CR20 opponent, I daresay, a cakewalk at that point.

[Calthropstu]

Well, the reality is the "power level" of your character should match your fellow pcs.
Can your fellow pcs one shot a balor/tarrasque/pit fiend? Can they solo it as often as you? Do they complain you outshine them? Do you feel they outshine you?
If the answer to those is no, yes, no, no then there is no problem. Otherwise, talk with them and see what you should do.

Edit: If you feel you need more power, start another thread and ask for optimizing tips. I doubt any other board can help you better than this one in that regard.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, the reality is the "power level" of your character should match your fellow pcs.
Can your fellow pcs one shot a balor/tarrasque/pit fiend? Can they solo it as often as you? Do they complain you outshine them? Do you feel they outshine you?
If the answer to those is no, yes, no, no then there is no problem. Otherwise, talk with them and see what you should do.

Well... the question was more about... um...

Lets say there's this wizard player. And he tells a group of friends "Tarrasque is too hard to kill with my wizard". Will the friends say "Yeah, you're not supposed to solo him" or will they say "ZOMG U N00BSH1T U SUK ROFL! U DUN DESERVE TO WIZARD YOU N00B!"

From what I gathered from the thread,
Yes, they will say I suck if I can't kill a tarrasque solo as a wizard.
But they won't say I suck if I can't kill a Balor or a Pit Fiend solo as a wizard.

[chaos_redefined]

Why isn't "Oh, have you tried doing this" an option there?

Why must players respond either with "yeah, that's fine" or "oh, you suck"? Why can't players help other players grow?

[Remuko]

Well... the question was more about... um...

Lets say there's this wizard player. And he tells a group of friends "Tarrasque is too hard to kill with my wizard". Will the friends say "Yeah, you're not supposed to solo him" or will they say "ZOMG U N00BSH1T U SUK ROFL! U DUN DESERVE TO WIZARD YOU N00B!"

From what I gathered from the thread,
Yes, they will say I suck if I can't kill a tarrasque solo as a wizard.
But they won't say I suck if I can't kill a Balor or a Pit Fiend solo as a wizard.

normal players wont react like that. grognards on an optimization forum might. so i dont think you should be too worried.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it makes you feel better, then, "YOU SUCK!" :smallwink:

...Wait, is that supposed to make you feel better?

[Calthropstu]

Well... the question was more about... um...

Lets say there's this wizard player. And he tells a group of friends "Tarrasque is too hard to kill with my wizard". Will the friends say "Yeah, you're not supposed to solo him" or will they say "ZOMG U N00BSH1T U SUK ROFL! U DUN DESERVE TO WIZARD YOU N00B!"

From what I gathered from the thread,
Yes, they will say I suck if I can't kill a tarrasque solo as a wizard.
But they won't say I suck if I can't kill a Balor or a Pit Fiend solo as a wizard.

To be fair, you can solo the tarrasque with a levitate spell and some creativity.
There are ways a commoner can take him down without rolling. For the cost of a portable hole and bag of holding, you can destroy the tarrasque permanently.
Other methods of getting rid of him include planeshift and other such dimensional trickery, energy drain, bypassing his immunities... So many one shots affect him that wizards have a lot of options against him. It's like playing a video game without looking at any walkthroughs. Yeah boss monsters will be hard. But then you look at the tips and it's like "Wow, is it really that simple?"
So planeshift the tarrasque to the positive material plane. Watch it explode. GG.
Balors and pitfiends, on the other hand, have numerous options with which to fight back. Their numbers might be lower, but pit fiends have an annual "I WIN, GG" ability in wish. They also have numerous other abilities, not least of which is greater teleport at will.
So yeah, everyone has a tougher time killing one. If you pile spellcaster levels onto one, it SERIOUSLY becomes a problem. I saw pf stats for a 15th lvl sorcerer succubus... Talk about insane.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I wonder how the tarrasque would fare if you upped its Int to 10, boosted its Cha to 19+, and gestalted it with twenty levels of the educated wilder variant.

[Calthropstu]

I wonder how the tarrasque would fare if you upped its Int to 10, boosted its Cha to 19+, and gestalted it with twenty levels of the educated wilder variant.

Very, very well. The mere thought of that scares me.

[Eldariel]

Very, very well. The mere thought of that scares me.

Or just have you fight a Psion 20/Wizard 20 that True Mind Switched / Permanent Magic Jared into Big T. Which is the most probable case anyways given how useful a body that is to have; what kind of a caster would pass up on chance to have one? And they're prolly evil.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Or just have you fight a Psion 20/Wizard 20 that True Mind Switched / Permanent Magic Jared into Big T. Which is the most probable case anyways given how useful a body that is to have; what kind of a caster would pass up on chance to have one? And they're prolly evil.Is there some way to perma-polymorph into something else while retaining the tarrasque's more favorable qualities, such as regen, the physical stats, and the carapace? Basically, to allow yourself to interact with much smaller (ie, normal-sized) beings.

I guess you could use the shrink collar from the A&EG (turns the wearer Small, but otherwise retains all stats), then use alter self to turn into an appropriately humanoid-like magical beast. I'd suggest girallon followed by disguise self into a humanoid lookalike, but girallons are A.) Large and are thus more than 1 size category away from Small, and B.) more than 5 HD. I suppose you could skip alter self and just go with disguise self. Use a pearl of speech (MIC) to speak, as needed.

[Doctor Awkward]

I wonder how the tarrasque would fare if you upped its Int to 10, boosted its Cha to 19+, and gestalted it with twenty levels of the educated wilder variant.

In my games, I give the tarrasque a 120 ft. line breath weapon.
That also entangles targets, and affects them as though through a targeted dispel with a caster level equal to half his HD + Cha mod.

Seems to solve most problems with uppity players.

[noob]

In my games, I give the tarrasque a 120 ft. line breath weapon.
That also entangles targets, and affects them as though through a targeted dispel with a caster level equal to half his HD + Cha mod.

Seems to solve most problems with uppity players.

I guess your players never use the fly spell to get above 200 feet high.
Good for you thanks to that they probably did not think yet about space conquest.

[Calthropstu]

I guess your players never use the fly spell to get above 200 feet high.
Good for you thanks to that they probably did not think yet about space conquest.

I took over space completely.

Which reminds me, you need a liqour license renewal for your space bar.

[Fizban]

I would like to point out that my initial question was regarding parties, not individual wizard soloing. I was actually expecting more people to name their favorite melee builds that would just one round it or whatever, which I would point out can crush any other monster. After which you can just keep eliminating the suggested build parties until you reach one that matches the intended difficulty level for whatever high level monsters are taken as the standard, thus solving for how strong you're "supposed" to be at high level.

Perhaps unsurprisingly the preferred option was to just lean on the assumption that the wizard can solo everything, then debate the Tarrasque rather than laboriously measure party power levels. And hey it's fun so I went along anyway.

I've aimed to shape these responses into general points that apply to all high level monters, any more Tarrasque problems can be sent to their own thread.

Wow, I guess you should tell that to the company that published Heroes of Horror and described it in their own words as "a rules supplement for the Dungeons and Dragons Roleplaying Game." Next argument please.
As I have said, the DMG does not endorse the idea that the DM must allow every book in every game- heck, in order to do so one must first take the stance that anyone who doesn't own every book isn't playing The Game, and that would be a disastrous move for the company. The DMG instead makes it clear that the DM is responsible for choosing what to use and what to not. There's nothing to argue about, so I have no need to supply an argument.

No, I'm just observing that it's not terribly honest of you to act like using a tactic that works against creatures like the Tarrasque against the Tarrasque is some kind of exploit. It isn't like there's no other instance where a summoned Allip would win a fight. . .
Unless your contention is that the fourth level spell slot you spent to summon an Allip was going to be critical in your efforts to defeat a Pit Fiend?
It would be a bit disingenuous, if I had ever seen summoning Allips recommended as a standard tactic for anything other than Tarrasque arguments. The power of the spell is widely known specifically because of that exploit in the first place. As always, one broken spell does not prove anything other than that spell is broken. Since the DM is not required to include every little thing, one broken non-core spell does not invalidate a monster. Since you seem to disagree with any use of DM authority, there is nothing further to discuss- we've both stated our views and know that you're not going to change my mind, done.

Dominate Monster on the other hand, is a foundational core spell. In the test to prove to me, a DM that is not allowing the player to dictate the content and context of the game, that a monster is fundamentally flawed- the Allip exploit means nothing while Dominate Monster odds are in fact quite convincing. The odds don't seriously disagree with me though, and similar odds apply to other monsters at the same level.


In fact, this analysis tends to come to entirely different conclusions: that save or lose isn't actually all that crushing against high level monsters. Feeling bad about not living up to the wizard hype doesn't make much sense if it turns out the hype was just hype. If a "decent" spell selection capable of crushing the game relies on Shapechange, Gate, or Time Stop novas- that's a pretty small list of "decent" spells, to the point you can't really use a broad word like "decent" to describe the narrowed selection.

He's the one insisting that the only valid encounter with the Tarrasque is one where it gets to perfectly surprise you in the middle of an inhabited area.
Any CR 20 monster being pitted against 20th level PCs is only one of the encounters they face that day. If the Tarrasque is being selected by the DM for such an encounter, it by definition can't be lumbering out in the field just waiting for them to show up, and must already be in a threatening position (unless it is being used as a distraction of course). This could be accomplished any number of ways.

This is why the Balors and the Pit Fiends and whatnot are potentially quite a bit less threatening in the grander scheme- it's a lot easier to efficiently kill enemies that are obligingly coming for you and don't require any special setups to kill, which means you're not drained for the other encounters you'll be facing. I would be more worried about characters which solo those guys than those that claim they can solo the Tarrasque, since the latter all seem to rely on burning a ton of spells or getting lucky.

A lower level party ought to be allowed some time to prepare for the Tarrasque, the same way a lower level party shouldn't be thrown against a Balor without time (and knowledge), and so on, but poor monster use doesn't make the monster bad. The amount of time they should get will obviously depend on how much a given monster is going to be a puzzle for them vs how well they already know exactly how to counter it. And we haven't even got to other encounter types like the 'ol "gotta destroy this artifact by scrubbing the Tarrasque's teeth with it."

Big T can be beaten by just spamming your collection of SaveOrLose spells at him, even if you are stuck in a low-ceiling cavern.

Oh sure, you have to beat SR and maybe get him to fail the save, but you'll be 1 in 4 or so on that even without Assay.
I already did the math on these above- odds for a mock 17th level caster were 14 or 16% on a 9th level will save IIRC, and 24% for the same at 20th, per casting. Lower level spells quickly hit the point where you're fishing for a natural 1 combined with a successful SR check, which is terrible odds to say the least. If you don't land it within your limited high level slots, you're done. The tricky thing about probability is that four castings at 25% is not a guarantee- there's a net 32% or so that you can get four failures in a row (0.75^4), leaving only a 68% chance to succeed within four 9th level slots. Those aren't bad odds, but they aren't "this monster is useless" either.

The same math applies to Balors, Pit Fiends, and every other high level monster with the same defenses. High saves plus high SR= spells failing a lot. Remove Assay Resistance so the monsters run as originally intended and save-or-die is a gamble plain and simple. The main difference is that the Tarrasque trades hunter-killer ability for massive resistance to weapon combat, forcing the PCs to spend heavily on magic to solve this problem (unless they have a super archer).

[Calthropstu]

Spells that have a major use as one shot kills AND utility:
Planeshift
Dominate/Dominate Monster
Teleport Other
Charm/Chatm Monster


Wizards should have all three of those in their spellbooks. Their versatility is massive. You can get rid of enemies, send allies where you need to go, penetrate defenses, turn enemies into allies, travel to other planes.

Forget the tarrasque, those spells work on almost anything. Hell, the planeshift will work on balors and pitfiends since they don't have innate plane shift spell likes.

So yeah, the wizard (or sorcerer) has options to oneshot most things with spells he can also prep for utility.

As for other characters, yes there are plenty. The psions have similar options to play with. An ubercharger can be built to oneshot most things. A ranger build can cluster shot enough damage to take down a lot (though maybe not the big T) and a paladin smiting can easily take down some major baddies.

Lots of build optiobs for lots of different optimization levels, but casters literally have oneshots built straight into their baseline.

[RoboEmperor]

Spells that have a major use as one shot kills AND utility:
Planeshift
Dominate/Dominate Monster
Teleport Other
Charm/Chatm Monster


Wizards should have all three of those in their spellbooks. Their versatility is massive. You can get rid of enemies, send allies where you need to go, penetrate defenses, turn enemies into allies, travel to other planes.

Forget the tarrasque, those spells work on almost anything. Hell, the planeshift will work on balors and pitfiends since they don't have innate plane shift spell likes.

So yeah, the wizard (or sorcerer) has options to oneshot most things with spells he can also prep for utility.

As for other characters, yes there are plenty. The psions have similar options to play with. An ubercharger can be built to oneshot most things. A ranger build can cluster shot enough damage to take down a lot (though maybe not the big T) and a paladin smiting can easily take down some major baddies.

Lots of build optiobs for lots of different optimization levels, but casters literally have oneshots built straight into their baseline.

Charm and Dominate monster are complete trash. Charm may survive at the level it's obtained but if they work against any high level enemy you must be playing some serious low-op.

SR:YES
Saving Throw
2nd Saving Throw to make it do something it's against
1st level spell (protection from evil) makes it worthless
Break Enchantment has 100% success against it
An enemy using Magic Circle against Good simply whiffing past your dominated creature will give it a chance to murder you.
A metric **** ton of stuff makes you completely immune to it.

The only time it should work is against a generic, no magic mook at which point even normal blasting will murder it.

[Calthropstu]

Charm and Dominate monster are complete trash. Charm may survive at the level it's obtained but if they work against any high level enemy you must be playing some serious low-op.

SR:YES
Saving Throw
2nd Saving Throw to make it do something it's against
1st level spell (protection from evil) makes it worthless
Break Enchantment has 100% success against it
An enemy using Magic Circle against Good simply whiffing past your dominated creature will give it a chance to murder you.
A metric **** ton of stuff makes you completely immune to it.

The only time it should work is against a generic, no magic mook at which point even normal blasting will murder it.

Eh, sure. And when my quickened dispel targetting your protection from evil effect, which you probably got from a magic item because it's super cheap but has a cl of like... 5 so gets shredded like paper, removes that protection, and I order you to give me all your items and dispel all your protections and order you to give me all the info I want... You can have your free will back because I am done with you.

And, if I deem you an actual threat, I sell you to illithids for food.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wizards should have all three of those in their spellbooks. Their versatility is massive. You can get rid of enemies, send allies where you need to go, penetrate defenses, turn enemies into allies, travel to other planes.
A lot of wizards ban enchantment, be they specialists or Incantatrixes. It's the go-to school to ban first after all.
And that's fine. There are hundreds of spells for wizards alone, you don't need any single one (though you really shouldn't ban Conjuration/Transmutation if you're concerned with power).

Sorcerers on the other hand really can't afford to take situational spells, especially not higher level ones. And anything mind-affecting definitely falls under situational since so many things are immune.

Not that they're bad spells, but i wouldn't call them must have.


Charm and Dominate monster are complete trash. Charm may survive at the level it's obtained but if they work against any high level enemy you must be playing some serious low-op.

The only time it should work is against a generic, no magic mook at which point even normal blasting will murder it.
Hardly. The supposedly widespread immunity to mind-affecting at high levels is vastly overstated.
In fact most enemies that are actually threatening to a high level spellcaster are not natively immune. Unless you're playing in an undead-heavy campaign they're perfectly usable.
Just because you can't use them against everything doesn't mean you can use them against nothing, and in the cases when they work they're devastating.

Not everything has high SR and a moderate level of optimization makes most cases of it completely irrelevant. Every caster wants CL boosts after all and there's a ton of them.
For experienced players the higher level you are the less likely it is that your CL will "only" match your character level. And that's not counting Assay Spell Resistance or the Arcane Mastery feat.

As for saving throws you can do quite a bit without triggering the 2nd save. Even within those limitations controlling someone is still very powerful.
And enchantment is by far the easiest school to boost save DCs for, by a large margin.

A wizard can afford to take situational spells, and in the situations where Charm/Dominate work (which pop up a lot more often than common forum wisdom would have you believe) they're probably the most devastating thing you can do - you're not just neutralizing the enemy, you're adding his strength to your own.

[RoboEmperor]

A lot of wizards ban enchantment, be they specialists or Incantatrixes. It's the go-to school to ban first after all.
And that's fine. There are hundreds of spells for wizards alone, you don't need any single one (though you really shouldn't ban Conjuration/Transmutation if you're concerned with power).

Sorcerers on the other hand really can't afford to take situational spells, especially not higher level ones. And anything mind-affecting definitely falls under situational since so many things are immune.

Not that they're bad spells, but i wouldn't call them must have.


Hardly. The supposedly widespread immunity to mind-affecting at high levels is vastly overstated.
In fact most enemies that are actually threatening to a high level spellcaster are not natively immune. Unless you're playing in an undead-heavy campaign they're perfectly usable.
Just because you can't use them against everything doesn't mean you can't use them against nothing, and in the cases when they work they're devastating.

Not everything has high SR and a moderate level of optimization makes most cases of it completely irrelevant. Every caster wants CL boosts after all and there's a ton of them.
For experienced players the higher level you are the less likely it is that your CL will "only" match your character level. And that's not counting Assay Spell Resistance or the Arcane Mastery feat.

As for saving throws you can do quite a bit without triggering the 2nd save. Even within those limitations controlling someone is still very powerful.
And enchantment is by far the easiest school to boost save DCs for, by a large margin.

A wizard can afford to take situational spells, and in the situations where Charm/Dominate work (which pop up a lot more often than common forum wisdom would have you believe) they're probably the most devastating thing you can do - you're not just neutralizing the enemy, you're adding his strength to your own.

Again, any NPC worth their salt will have a mind-affecting immunity item. Talk to a DM who lost a character to a SoD when he was a player, there is not a chance in hell anyone IMPORTANT is not gonna have blanket immunities to mind-affecting, death effects, etc, which again limits the spell to generic random unimportant mooks.

SoDs are wealth tax in high op. If the DM fails to pay that tax then not only does his BBEG deserves to die anti-climatically because of a bad roll but that game is most definitely low op. Maybe mid op.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Again, any NPC worth their salt will have a mind-affecting immunity item. Talk to a DM who lost a character to a SoD when he was a player, there is not a chance in hell anyone IMPORTANT is not gonna have blanket immunities to mind-affecting, death effects, etc, which again limits the spell to generic random unimportant mooks.

SoDs are wealth tax in high op. If the DM fails to pay that tax then not only does his BBEG deserves to die anti-climatically because of a bad roll but that game is most definitely low op. Maybe mid op.

I don't know what games you play in, but items can be dispelled and no game even remotely high-op won't have the players using dispels.
Even leaving that aside a mind-affecting immunity item comes at 110,000gp at the cheapest.
Not only is that alone half the WBL of even a level 20 NPC and way beyond the treasure value of most monsters - so you can't actually afford to cover every immunity with items - it's also all loot that your players will pick up after the encounter. The problem with that should be obvious.

When i DM - and with most groups i've played in - monsters and NPCs tend to use consumables to patch weaknesses because of that. And those can also be dispelled, so actual immunity does not exist for those who don't have it natively.

[Calthropstu]

Again, any NPC worth their salt will have a mind-affecting immunity item. Talk to a DM who lost a character to a SoD when he was a player, there is not a chance in hell anyone IMPORTANT is not gonna have blanket immunities to mind-affecting, death effects, etc, which again limits the spell to generic random unimportant mooks.

SoDs are wealth tax in high op. If the DM fails to pay that tax then not only does his BBEG deserves to die anti-climatically because of a bad roll but that game is most definitely low op. Maybe mid op.

BBEG? Sure. A bbeg will probably have layered defenses. All his mooks? Probably not. And charm/dominate on even ONE enemy mook gives you immeasurable information, and an immensely powerful weapon: a trusted ally of your enemy turned traitor.
Outsiders, magical beasts, abberations, mobstrous humanoids, humanoids, animals... none of these have native immune to mind affecting.

Is every single member of the thieves guild going to have protection from evil? No. Is the thieves guild leader going to? Sure. From an item most likely. Meaning dispel + dominate = win.

[Manyasone]

normal players wont react like that. grognards on an optimization forum might. so i dont think you should be too worried.
Dude. I'm a grognard andi couldn't care less even if I tried. 'Enjoy the game' is my motto

[Asmotherion]

Just dump it on another plane and be done with it? project image to get close and cast, plane shift to get it away and wash your hands of it. using 7ths. Its only plus 20 will. You get enough shots. if not abusing time traits of planes gets you what you need pretty instantly. there is probably a way to widen gate enough that you can just bait it through, needs to be 50 ft in diameter iirc. let the abyss deal with it. or where ever.

Generally, it's a good way to deal with it. Unfortunatelly, it does not give you the means to get it's body, witch is in itself a nice McGuffin (if the DM works with you), and with some creativity you can find so many ways to use it anyway. Like, not necessarily right away, but if you stash it somewere, and create an Epic Necromancy spell (with an Epic Necromancy Spell Seed perhaps?) latter.


If you can find an allip out in the wild by some means (maybe through divinations) then there are various ways to get said allip under your control at pretty low level. All of that is doable in core. It also really doesn't matter that a given spell has a low likelihood of killing the tarrasque. The reason the tarrasque is a dumb monster isn't because it happens to lack ability drain immunity or the capacity to harm an allip. The reason the tarrasque is a dumb monster is because it has such limited capacity to harm your garden variety creature with a fly speed. A lot of creatures without the ability to harm an allip can still not be taken out by a wizard casting summon undead. Because those creatures have a way to harm an invisible wizard flying a decent distance above the battlefield. As long as you have any means whatsoever of taking out a tarrasque, at any chance of success over the course of a day, then the answer to the question, "What common wizard spell is capable of defeating the tarrasque?" is a trivial one. Fly. You get a decent distance away, prepare one of the spells that can let you win, return to the field of battle, launch that spell, and repeat until you win. Yeah, it's a little cheap, but it's effective at pretty low level, and possible for the majority of wizards out there, almost ignoring both book access and level (with more of the former probably helping with the latter).

Hey, don't disrespect Big-T. A smart DM can spawn the thing in a less favorable environment. For example, a Ghost Tarrasque or one Trapped in the Ethereal plane wile the party happens to travel that plane. Now that's a threat. It can fly. It has hit ethereal creatures normally.

In fact, that's probably were I'd make my party encounter a Big T, and the story would add up (the reason why civilisation still exists is because someone managed to trap it there).

[RoboEmperor]

BBEG? Sure. A bbeg will probably have layered defenses. All his mooks? Probably not. And charm/dominate on even ONE enemy mook gives you immeasurable information, and an immensely powerful weapon: a trusted ally of your enemy turned traitor.
Outsiders, magical beasts, abberations, mobstrous humanoids, humanoids, animals... none of these have native immune to mind affecting.

Is every single member of the thieves guild going to have protection from evil? No. Is the thieves guild leader going to? Sure. From an item most likely. Meaning dispel + dominate = win.

The BBEGs and random mooks in my level 17+ table are usually outsiders, optimized undead, or spellcasters, not MUNDANES. We debate whether or not to use assay resistance or ignore it completely for SR:NO spells let alone dispel magic. And I wouldn't call our table high op. Mid-high at best and I'd put us closer to mid than high. Virtually all outsiders of any importance have at-will protection from good-like effect and with spellcasters it's a rocket, we need 100% reliability not a hail mary SoD.

If you're fighting mundane BBEGs at level 17+ I really doubt you're playing high op. Low to mid at best.

Not to sound condescending no offense. But that's just it. It's spellcasting or go home at higher optimizations even for NPCs.

[Asmotherion]

The BBEGs and random mooks in my level 17+ table are usually outsiders, optimized undead, or spellcasters, not MUNDANES. We debate whether or not to use assay resistance or ignore it completely for SR:NO spells let alone dispel magic. And I wouldn't call our table high op. Mid-high at best and I'd put us closer to mid than high. Virtually all outsiders of any importance have at-will protection from good-like effect and with spellcasters it's a rocket, we need 100% reliability not a hail mary SoD.

If you're fighting mundane BBEGs at level 17+ I really doubt you're playing high op. Low to mid at best.

Not to sound condescending no offense. But that's just it. It's spellcasting or go home at higher optimizations even for NPCs.

Define Mundane.

Do you have any idea how Sky Rocket Tome of Battle (Esspecially Maneuvers) can make a Mundane? Equip them with the right Magic Items, and they're not mundane at all.

Wile Magic is more my kind of thing, I've learnd not to underestimate a Non-Caster who knows what he's doing. Bonus if he has some limited spellcasting ability (For example Hexblades and Paladins).

Maneuvers and Skill Tricks can Alter Reality almost to the Point of a Spell; They are Two sides of the same proverbial Coin.

[Eldariel]

Define Mundane.

Do you have any idea how Sky Rocket Tome of Battle (Esspecially Maneuvers) can make a Mundane? Equip them with the right Magic Items, and they're not mundane at all.

Wile Magic is more my kind of thing, I've learnd not to underestimate a Non-Caster who knows what he's doing. Bonus if he has some limited spellcasting ability (For example Hexblades and Paladins).

Maneuvers and Skill Tricks can Alter Reality almost to the Point of a Spell; They are Two sides of the same proverbial Coin.

Eh, maneuvers and skill tricks are nice but they can't do:
- Strategic level movement
- Information gathering/information wars
- Minionmancy
- SLA acquisition/form shifting

They can mimic some of the tactical caster capabilities and make for a decent combat bot but that's all they are; on high levels, you need to be able to match the ability to move 10 miles as a swift action, acquire virtually any knowledge as a standard action, ability to produce any ability in the game and outsource multiple tasks at the same time to capable underlings, and the ability to acquire any set of abilities in the game. Maneuvers and skill tricks do jack squat with regards to all of that making them largely superfluous; comparable to things you can Planar Bind or Summon at best. Class features, not actual classes.

[Asmotherion]

Eh, maneuvers and skill tricks are nice but they can't do:
- Strategic level movement
- Information gathering/information wars
- Minionmancy
- SLA acquisition/form shifting

They can mimic some of the tactical caster capabilities and make for a decent combat bot but that's all they are; on high levels, you need to be able to match the ability to move 10 miles as a swift action, acquire virtually any knowledge as a standard action, ability to produce any ability in the game and outsource multiple tasks at the same time to capable underlings, and the ability to acquire any set of abilities in the game. Maneuvers and skill tricks do jack squat with regards to all of that making them largely superfluous; comparable to things you can Planar Bind or Summon at best. Class features, not actual classes.

For all that, the BBEG can have a caster right hand General for example, but does not need to be the one casting the spells himself. Think a Merlin to an Arthur. The one "calling the shots" is the BBEG, wile the one manipulating the events, and possibly the BBEG is the caster.

I'm just saying...

[Eldariel]

For all that, the BBEG can have a caster right hand General for example, but does not need to be the one casting the spells himself. Think a Merlin to an Arthur. The one "calling the shots" is the BBEG, wile the one manipulating the events, and possibly the BBEG is the caster.

I'm just saying...

That doesn't change the fact that the non-casters is completely and utterly dwarfed in ability by the caster and two casters would prove much more formidable.

[Asmotherion]

That doesn't change the fact that the non-casters is completely and utterly dwarfed in ability by the caster and two casters would prove much more formidable.

Hey, don't try to convince me. I play casters for a reason.

I'm just saying that a BBEG can be as interesting in a Narative way as a Mundane, Can still be a combat challenge, and with a good group organisation, won't lack any resources.

[Eldariel]

Hey, don't try to convince me. I play casters for a reason.

I'm just saying that a BBEG can be as interesting in a Narative way as a Mundane, Can still be a combat challenge, and with a good group organisation, won't lack any resources.

But far as the CR system is concerned, he'll be inappropriately CRd compared to the caster lieutenant; the other parts of the organisation are certainly the reasons for there being a challenge. So while doable, I recommend statting the BBEG themself at like CR10-13 for 20 levels in a martial class in a normal game with all classes allowed.

[Florian]

"How strong are you supposed to be at high level?"

That somehow strikes me as asking an entirely wrong question, or not understanding what resource management means when compared to the CR system.

Any class at full resources and kitted out with full WBL can go "nova" and pull a stunt equal to a tactical nuke or orbital strike (Yes, that includes Fighter, but may not include the Monk, depending on whether we talk 3.5 or PF).

Discounting the usual forum blah-blah about Batman Wizards, the question is how you could handle the unknown, an adventuring day with a lot of encounters and no foreknowledge what you will face and how many resources you have to burn to see you and your party through.

[Calthropstu]

The BBEGs and random mooks in my level 17+ table are usually outsiders, optimized undead, or spellcasters, not MUNDANES. We debate whether or not to use assay resistance or ignore it completely for SR:NO spells let alone dispel magic. And I wouldn't call our table high op. Mid-high at best and I'd put us closer to mid than high. Virtually all outsiders of any importance have at-will protection from good-like effect and with spellcasters it's a rocket, we need 100% reliability not a hail mary SoD.

If you're fighting mundane BBEGs at level 17+ I really doubt you're playing high op. Low to mid at best.

Not to sound condescending no offense. But that's just it. It's spellcasting or go home at higher optimizations even for NPCs.

Psh, yeah.

So, Your mooks are extra planar and undead eh?

So I dispel your at will protection from good with a swift, dominate your outsider, command it not to reactivate its protection from good.

You DO know that can be dispelled right? And even the highest level bbegs have low level servants. Unless you have a Balor emptying trash and moving linens, I WILL find a way to get someone. And even if you do, I am still dispelling protection from good.

In short, your "mid high op" is laughably weak.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh, maneuvers and skill tricks are nice but they can't do:
- Strategic level movement
- Information gathering/information wars
- Minionmancy
- SLA acquisition/form shifting

They can mimic some of the tactical caster capabilities and make for a decent combat bot but that's all they are; on high levels, you need to be able to match the ability to move 10 miles as a swift action, acquire virtually any knowledge as a standard action, ability to produce any ability in the game and outsource multiple tasks at the same time to capable underlings, and the ability to acquire any set of abilities in the game. Maneuvers and skill tricks do jack squat with regards to all of that making them largely superfluous; comparable to things you can Planar Bind or Summon at best. Class features, not actual classes.

All of that can be handled at the organizational level with minimal magical input. There's no need for the BBEG of the adventure to do every little thing personally. That's what minions are for.

[Cosi]

I wonder how the tarrasque would fare if you upped its Int to 10, boosted its Cha to 19+, and gestalted it with twenty levels of the educated wilder variant.

Pretty well, but the Wilder is doing a lot of the heavy lifting there. The interesting question in that context is what the weakest creature you could gestalt a 20th level Wilder with without generating something stronger than the Tarrasque is. The CR 12 Protean Scourge becomes pretty devastating when it gets 20th level casting (but better, 'cause the points aren't shared), and that's not even supposed to be a challenge for people fighting the Tarrasque.


Perhaps unsurprisingly the preferred option was to just lean on the assumption that the wizard can solo everything, then debate the Tarrasque rather than laboriously measure party power levels. And hey it's fun so I went along anyway.

Yes, because you don't need to debate party power levels. Parties are comprised of characters, and those characters have a defined balance point they are supposed to hit. Insisting on adding a bunch of noise only makes the data worse. I don't know why people want to do that.


As I have said, the DMG does not endorse the idea that the DM must allow every book in every game- heck, in order to do so one must first take the stance that anyone who doesn't own every book isn't playing The Game, and that would be a disastrous move for the company. The DMG instead makes it clear that the DM is responsible for choosing what to use and what to not. There's nothing to argue about, so I have no need to supply an argument.

No, you can't supply an argument, because the designers of the game made it clear you are wrong. Heroes of Horror contains rules for Dungeons and Dragons, and says so in the literal first sentence of the book. There's no ambiguity there, nor any need for external analysis. If you want to ask "how does a core-only party beat the Tarrasque", ask that, but if you want to talk about the rules of Dungeons and Dragons, you should consider listening to the people who wrote the rules of Dungeons and Dragons.

And, no, that doesn't mean that "not using those rules isn't playing the game". There are, considering only PHB races and PHB classes, well over a trillion possible builds. Are you using that content in your game? Of course not! But you're still playing the game.


It would be a bit disingenuous, if I had ever seen summoning Allips recommended as a standard tactic for anything other than Tarrasque arguments.

Well that's because no one gets in long, involved arguments about how to kill Hydras or Grey Renders, not because Allips don't beat them. People beat Siege Crabs somehow, but it's not using the tactics discussed for beating them, because no one has ever had a discussion about how best to beat a Siege Crab. That doesn't mean that it would suddenly be invalid to use those tactics if people were to have such a discussion. As far as I can discern, your point appears to be "anyone on a forum ever proposed that solution, therefore it's invalid", which is notable for not being an argument.


The power of the spell is widely known specifically because of that exploit in the first place. As always, one broken spell does not prove anything other than that spell is broken.

It's interesting that you insist that the spell is broken on the basis of absolutely nothing. The problem couldn't possibly exist on the DM's side of the screen. Has to be those dirty, nasty players with their dirty, nasty powergaming they learned on the dirty, nasty forums you inexplicably frequent.


a DM that is not allowing the player to dictate the content and context of the game,

That's a weird way of saying "the DM is banning things to avoid an encounter they didn't design well being trivialized". Again, the designers have taken the very clear position that the things you keep calling "exploits" are just part of the rules.


If a "decent" spell selection capable of crushing the game relies on Shapechange, Gate, or Time Stop novas- that's a pretty small list of "decent" spells, to the point you can't really use a broad word like "decent" to describe the narrowed selection.

Again, you only have to win once. If your tactic works, it works. You don't lose points for not having other options any more than you gain points for having them.


If the Tarrasque is being selected by the DM for such an encounter, it by definition can't be lumbering out in the field just waiting for them to show up

You understand that the literal name of the game is a reference to exactly "monsters waiting around for PCs to show up", right? It's not "always getting ambushed in your base all the time and Dragons". Besides, there's a lot of middle ground between "the Tarrasque waits for you to kill it" and "the Tarrasque has to start in an urban area you can't evacuate and you have no chance of detecting it early". The Tarrasque loses on unfavored ground or neutral ground, and maybe poses an appropriate threat on favored ground. Compare that to the Balor (an actually appropriate CR 20 threat). It's optimal setup looks like this:

1. It gets a round of prep which it uses to activate its summon ability.
2. The PCs are all in an area where they can all be hit with one blasphemy.
3. It gets a surprise round.

Note that these are actually more plausible than the advantages you're demanding for the Tarrasque, because it has meaningful tools to help achieve them (at-will teleport and dominate monster).

If it gets that setup, the PCs never get an action. So if you give the Balor a comparable advantage to what you want for the Tarrasque, it always wins. But, no, you're not giving an unfair advantage to the Tarrasque.


This is why the Balors and the Pit Fiends and whatnot are potentially quite a bit less threatening in the grander scheme- it's a lot easier to efficiently kill enemies that are obligingly coming for you

Why would they come for you? They have better mobility and minion-mancy. Unlike the Tarrasque (which you are for some reason giving perfect attacker and defender's advantage), these guys actually have the tools they need to pick engagements. You would think that would make it harder for PCs to force them to battle, not easier.


I would be more worried about characters which solo those guys than those that claim they can solo the Tarrasque, since the latter all seem to rely on burning a ton of spells or getting lucky.

Ah yes, the horrible strain of "one 4th level spell slot, and a 5th level buff you cast yesterday". Truly, a burden beyond compare for a 20th level character. How will they ever survive!


forcing the PCs to spend heavily on magic to solve this problem (unless they have a super archer).

"Oh no, we can't use the horribly ineffective gimp who foisted himself on us and will have to instead rely on level appropriate characters with level appropriate abilities!"


For all that, the BBEG can have a caster right hand General for example, but does not need to be the one casting the spells himself. Think a Merlin to an Arthur. The one "calling the shots" is the BBEG, wile the one manipulating the events, and possibly the BBEG is the caster.

I'm just saying...

I gotta agree that it's not terribly inspiring for the non-caster to have to pull in a caster for help. There's a clear asymmetry when a Wizard BBEG doesn't need a Fighter minion for anything.

[Asmotherion]

Psh, yeah.

So, Your mooks are extra planar and undead eh?

So I dispel your at will protection from good with a swift, dominate your outsider, command it not to reactivate its protection from good.

You DO know that can be dispelled right? And even the highest level bbegs have low level servants. Unless you have a Balor emptying trash and moving linens, I WILL find a way to get someone. And even if you do, I am still dispelling protection from good.

In short, your "mid high op" is laughably weak.

When did this escalete into a "mine is bigger, yours is smaller" conterst?

Why do people always expect that the DM should and Will play the BBEG in the most Stupid and Predictable way possible? If he is, let's say a Half-Fiend Wizard, before the Final Battle he will have a lot more Defances going on than just a Regular "Protection From Good". Dispelling the Wall of Force, Dominate Person on some NPCs he will use as Meat Shields (and as his elite troop) that the DM will have made the PCs interact with and possibly made friends with before Domination, and a possible Prismatic Wall to make him watch the battle wile the PCs waste Spell Slots and take Damage. If he is super Cruel, he can move out of the Prismatic Wall, cast a Spell, and move Back Behind.

A BBEG Boss fight is not supposed to be a Fair Fight.

[Eldariel]

All of that can be handled at the organizational level with minimal magical input. There's no need for the BBEG of the adventure to do every little thing personally. That's what minions are for.

Certainly, but such matters outsourced make the BBEG far less formidable; all you need to do is kill their minion and suddenly they're stranded in the Abyss or whatever, completely unable to do anything. Similarly, yeah, such things are handled by minions but magic is by far the most efficient means of creating minions. Mundanes have really weak and expensive options for generating minions and few if any ways of coercing things that do have magic to work for them. Thus they need a ridiculous amount of resources to match what magic does very cheaply. It's just not a balanced equation; a mundane BBEG needs like CR100 worth of NPC wealth to match what a CR20 magical BBEG can do out of the box.

[RoboEmperor]

Psh, yeah.

So, Your mooks are extra planar and undead eh?

So I dispel your at will protection from good with a swift, dominate your outsider, command it not to reactivate its protection from good.

You DO know that can be dispelled right? And even the highest level bbegs have low level servants. Unless you have a Balor emptying trash and moving linens, I WILL find a way to get someone. And even if you do, I am still dispelling protection from good.

In short, your "mid high op" is laughably weak.

So let me get this straight. In a battle with a Balor and Marilith minions, You're going to dispel ALL of the Unholy Auras on them which may fail because of the caster level check and because there are multiple instances of it. Then you're going to cast dominate monster on a high SR and high will save creature, and if you manage to pass all 3 hurdles to finally dominate a marilith, what's stopping another marilith from casting Unholy Aura and freeing the dominated creature? Are you going to spend another action dispelling the newly cast Unholy Aura and dispel your own Dominate in the process? And then cast another dominate monster to re-dominate the marilith only for it to be freed again? What a fine way to spend your action. No you're right, Dominate Monster is the best level 9 spell and every wizard worth their salt should memorize one regularly.

[Darth Ultron]

Why do people always expect that the DM should and Will play the BBEG in the most Stupid and Predictable way possible?

This is the typical way to play D&D and is used by most gamers. The idea is the game is only ''fun'' if the players ''win'' all the time automatically. It's a lot like typical movie or TV storytelling: It's not ''if'' the heroes will win, it is just ''how'' the heroes will win.

So this has any foes as just being soft targets for the players to ''have fun'' killing.

[Calthropstu]

When did this escalete into a "mine is bigger, yours is smaller" conterst?

Why do people always expect that the DM should and Will play the BBEG in the most Stupid and Predictable way possible? If he is, let's say a Half-Fiend Wizard, before the Final Battle he will have a lot more Defances going on than just a Regular "Protection From Good". Dispelling the Wall of Force, Dominate Person on some NPCs he will use as Meat Shields (and as his elite troop) that the DM will have made the PCs interact with and possibly made friends with before Domination, and a possible Prismatic Wall to make him watch the battle wile the PCs waste Spell Slots and take Damage. If he is super Cruel, he can move out of the Prismatic Wall, cast a Spell, and move Back Behind.

A BBEG Boss fight is not supposed to be a Fair Fight.

Not talking about the boss fight. I am talking about fighting the shadow war BEFORE the boss fight. BBEGs are tough. Challenging them head on is always going to be difficult at best, suicide likely. No, you penetrate their defenses slowly, find weak points, go after minions, test the waters with throw away summons, bind elementals to collapse his base, dilomacy his allies into abandoning him.

All while fending off his counters. You don't likely one shot the bbeg. I am talking about minions, slaves and allies of the BBEG who will be MUCH less defended.

[Asmotherion]

This is the typical way to play D&D and is used by most gamers. The idea is the game is only ''fun'' if the players ''win'' all the time automatically. It's a lot like typical movie or TV storytelling: It's not ''if'' the heroes will win, it is just ''how'' the heroes will win.

So this has any foes as just being soft targets for the players to ''have fun'' killing.

That's why I like to give my games a Horror tone. In horror movies, you never know if it's one of those were the protagonists survive 'till the end, or if it has an ending with a TPK. Even if someone dies and comes back, something might be off, and the player himself might be unaware of it until the worst possible time (A Geass/Quest being one of many Examples).


Not talking about the boss fight. I am talking about fighting the shadow war BEFORE the boss fight. BBEGs are tough. Challenging them head on is always going to be difficult at best, suicide likely. No, you penetrate their defenses slowly, find weak points, go after minions, test the waters with throw away summons, bind elementals to collapse his base, dilomacy his allies into abandoning him.

All while fending off his counters. You don't likely one shot the bbeg. I am talking about minions, slaves and allies of the BBEG who will be MUCH less defended.

All this allow great RP, and effort. Overall, it would mean you and your party would DESERVE to have weakened his defences (at least to some point). The whole point however (from a DM perspective) would be to have you use up major resources in doing so, and calculate how much you want to continue this, using (as a random example) the money and food of the town that are running Low as Leverage/an other thing to handle through Spell Slot Managment.

PS: I like how this Imaginary Campain is almost taking an Actual Shape now:
So far we've got:
Half Fiend (Unknown Race) BBEG
Sorcerer OR Wizard 20

-He has cast "Dominate Person" on Major NPCs and former Allies the PCs met during their travels, and uses them as his Elit Troup of Soldiers.
-When in combat, avoids to engage Directly, instead gets behind Abjuration Spells, and lets his Minions handle the Job, wile he passivelly participates with "Spectral Hand" and "Touch Attack Spells.
-I think a Necromancer Build fits the Job nicely. Thus our BBEG has his Personal Squad of Undead, Summon Undead, and I think he's more of an Uncorporeal kind of guy, so let's skip Create Undead, and go Create Greater Undead directly. He does keep Skeletons and Zombies though.
-Planarly Bound a couple of High Level Fiends who can summon their own Fiends, as well as 4 elementals (1 of each type). I'd also add some Efreeti, for variety of Evil Outsiders (and Wish Granders).

Finally, give him a Ring of 9 Lives for the Off-Chance of getting Caught into something he Can't Handle himself.

I'd make a major part of the campain about Choosing to Prevent Domination of the Friendly Major NPC and loosing a major battle doing so, or Winning and suffer the loss of a Friend and Ally (and having to face them in the final battle).

How does that sound everyone? :P

[Kelb_Panthera]

Certainly, but such matters outsourced make the BBEG far less formidable; all you need to do is kill their minion and suddenly they're stranded in the Abyss or whatever, completely unable to do anything. Similarly, yeah, such things are handled by minions but magic is by far the most efficient means of creating minions. Mundanes have really weak and expensive options for generating minions and few if any ways of coercing things that do have magic to work for them. Thus they need a ridiculous amount of resources to match what magic does very cheaply. It's just not a balanced equation; a mundane BBEG needs like CR100 worth of NPC wealth to match what a CR20 magical BBEG can do out of the box.

Not minion. Minions. A BBEG that's a solo or even duo character threat is nothing to write home about. Not even worth the title, really, and that includes casters.

If you take out an important lieutenant, that triggers a response. Any of a number of his underlings or one of your other lieutenants either looks into it, reports it to you, or both. If losing one minion unravels your whole organization and all of your plans, you're doing it -very- wrong.

As for magic being the most efficient minion generator; it's only second. The most efficient is leadership chaining; everyone involved is there voluntarily. An ECL 20 character can have hundreds if not thousands of minions for a single feat and there's no saving throws, no skill or ability checks, and precious little chance of them turning against you without being compelled.

On a personal combat level, gearing him isn't that complicated. At the strategic level you use the fact he doesn't try to do everything himself. You might grab a helm of teleportation to get him somewhere pressing in a hurry but the logistics of everything else gets distributed across a whole organization.

[Calthropstu]

Not minion. Minions. A BBEG that's a solo or even duo character threat is nothing to write home about. Not even worth the title, really, and that includes casters.

If you take out an important lieutenant, that triggers a response. Any of a number of his underlings or one of your other lieutenants either looks into it, reports it to you, or both. If losing one minion unravels your whole organization and all of your plans, you're doing it -very- wrong.

As for magic being the most efficient minion generator; it's only second. The most efficient is leadership chaining; everyone involved is there voluntarily. An ECL 20 character can have hundreds if not thousands of minions for a single feat and there's no saving throws, no skill or ability checks, and precious little chance of them turning against you without being compelled.

On a personal combat level, gearing him isn't that complicated. At the strategic level you use the fact he doesn't try to do everything himself. You might grab a helm of teleportation to get him somewhere pressing in a hurry but the logistics of everything else gets distributed across a whole organization.

Problem with that chain... you've actually created a scenario where taking out key players collapses massive portions of the organization.

You take out the lvl 16s, for example, and all of their followers have little reason to remain. 4 kills at that point eliminates 90% of the organization. Now you go from a few thousand to a few hundred, and at that point you can start working down the final core of the group.

As for the necromancy, sure charm and dominate won't work, but control undead most certainly will.

And no, eliminating or dominating a single person won't destroy an organization powerful enough to be led by a bbeg. But it WILL allow you to find holes in their defenses and garner information about what they fear.

Who is under the bbeg's control? Can that control be broken? Can his leiutenants be bribed? Can his sources of power be disrupted? Does he ever go off to be alone? Is assassination an option? Who does he trust most? What are his next moves?

You can get some of that info from even his lowliest soldiers. And if he protects his undead from control undead, how is HE controlling them? And can you disrupt it en masse?

Any long term bbeg strategy is going to have exploitable holes. If the gm hasn't allowed for those exploits, then why are we even playing? Does the gm want you to stroll into the bbeg's lair with a skip and a jump, swing your swords a few times and then live happily ever after?