Character Progression Conundrum

[Arkhios]

Turns out my third time was the charm, considering our Rise of the Runelords (3.PF) campaign. (I've had my character killed twice before now)

Now, I have a ridiculously sturdy dwarf barbarian 6/fighter 3 (natural stats; rolled: str 18, dex 16, con 19, int 13, wis 11, cha 10) with a dwarf cleric 7 (natural stats; standard array: str 13, dex 8, con 16, int 10, wis 16, cha 10) as his cohort (storywise, they're brothers).

As is normal (at least I think it's a standard assumption), when I made a new character in place of my previous character who died a few levels ago, I started one level behind the others. A few sessions ago, when the other three characters leveled up to 9th level, I was left a few hundred XP below the 9th level mark. The next time we were given our XP, I ended up being almost two thousand XP ahead of the three who had previously been far ahead of me.

Since two of the other characters (cleric 7/thaumaturgist 2 and Wizard 7/Loremaster 2) are sharing the load of crafting magic items for the whole party, and thus expending their own XP's per RAW, I was thinking about taking levels in Rogue next, as I think we might actually need another rogue. The third character is a Ranger 8/Rogue 1, but she's considered about getting her animal companion as strong as possible, and is unlikely to take any more levels in rogue, and her skill points are primarily directed towards animal handling and survival stuff.

As for myself, with the int 13, I have taken Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down, and have used all of them to great effect, even considering that I have levels in barbarian and two rages per day. I digress a bit, but I think this is worthwhile to know. I am the group's tank, and have done the job remarkably well, and I have noticed that since enemies rarely make a hit on my ridiculously high AC, and my saves are already pretty damn great (especially against spells, thanks to being a dwarf). Currently, I have more hit points than I probably need, and the dwarven cleric is using Shield Other for his brother, so that does help quite a bit as well.

Anyway, I'm aware that if I take rogue levels at this point, I'll suffer a 20% experience penalty, but I'm wondering if it would still be worth it. I feel kind of sorry that I rushed ahead of the other group and I was thinking I could, indeed, take the penalty for a few levels. Besides, rogue levels stack for uncanny dodge, so there's that too. I might take one more level in fighter at some point, but I'd like to take at least 5 rogue levels next. (5th level of rogue would eliminate the experience penalty, since fighter levels don't count for a dwarf).

What do you think?

[Psyren]

Rogue levels would be a waste with your Int in my opinion. Even if your rogue/ranger wants a more nature-y focus going forward, they should have plenty of skill points left over, and your party has enough magic to handle the rest. It'll also hurt your fort save, and being the tank, most fort saves will fall on you - enemies whose attacks carry poison, diseases, curses, SoD effects and the like. If you just want it for traps and uncanny dodge, I'd recommend more Barbarian instead, especially if you're using PF rage powers.

Speaking of which, you mention it's 3.P but throughout your post I only saw 3.5 rules - XP penalties, XP for crafting, even the trip rules appear to be 3.5 since Knock-Down is a thing. What exactly are you using from PF? If it's class features, all the more reason not go splashing and dipping around, you're denying yourself some pretty powerful features if you do.

[Calthropstu]

Turns out my third time was the charm, considering our Rise of the Runelords (3.PF) campaign. (I've had my character killed twice before now)

Now, I have a ridiculously sturdy dwarf barbarian 6/fighter 3 (natural stats; rolled: str 18, dex 16, con 19, int 13, wis 11, cha 10) with a dwarf cleric 7 (natural stats; standard array: str 13, dex 8, con 16, int 10, wis 16, cha 10) as his cohort (storywise, they're brothers).

As is normal (at least I think it's a standard assumption), when I made a new character in place of my previous character who died a few levels ago, I started one level behind the others. A few sessions ago, when the other three characters leveled up to 9th level, I was left a few hundred XP below the 9th level mark. The next time we were given our XP, I ended up being almost two thousand XP ahead of the three who had previously been far ahead of me.

Since two of the other characters (cleric 7/thaumaturgist 2 and Wizard 7/Loremaster 2) are sharing the load of crafting magic items for the whole party, and thus expending their own XP's per RAW, I was thinking about taking levels in Rogue next, as I think we might actually need another rogue. The third character is a Ranger 8/Rogue 1, but she's considered about getting her animal companion as strong as possible, and is unlikely to take any more levels in rogue, and her skill points are primarily directed towards animal handling and survival stuff.

As for myself, with the int 13, I have taken Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-Down, and have used all of them to great effect, even considering that I have levels in barbarian and two rages per day. I digress a bit, but I think this is worthwhile to know. I am the group's tank, and have done the job remarkably well, and I have noticed that since enemies rarely make a hit on my ridiculously high AC, and my saves are already pretty damn great (especially against spells, thanks to being a dwarf). Currently, I have more hit points than I probably need, and the dwarven cleric is using Shield Other for his brother, so that does help quite a bit as well.

Anyway, I'm aware that if I take rogue levels at this point, I'll suffer a 20% experience penalty, but I'm wondering if it would still be worth it. I feel kind of sorry that I rushed ahead of the other group and I was thinking I could, indeed, take the penalty for a few levels. Besides, rogue levels stack for uncanny dodge, so there's that too. I might take one more level in fighter at some point, but I'd like to take at least 5 rogue levels next. (5th level of rogue would eliminate the experience penalty, since fighter levels don't count for a dwarf).

What do you think?

Is the chasis 3.5 or pf? Because there is no crafting xp cost in pf.

[Arkhios]

Is the chasis 3.5 or pf? Because there is no crafting xp cost in pf.

You do the math.

Just kidding... I was in the understanding that referring to "3.PF" means that you basically use the 3.5 rules and the stuff provided by Pathfinder Chronicles materials (which are made to seamlessly apply to 3.5).

There was a time when 3.5 and Pathfinder collided before using the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. That time was when the setting materials were called Pathfinder Chronicles and they were written with 3.5 rules in mind. (FYI, if you didn't know, that was when Pathfinder Core rules were still in development; ergo, not finished).

In other words, we use Pathfinder Chronicles materials for the setting relevant parts, and 3.5 where it applies.


Rogue levels would be a waste with your Int in my opinion. Even if your rogue/ranger wants a more nature-y focus going forward, they should have plenty of skill points left over, and your party has enough magic to handle the rest. It'll also hurt your fort save, and being the tank, most fort saves will fall on you - enemies whose attacks carry poison, diseases, curses, SoD effects and the like. If you just want it for traps and uncanny dodge, I'd recommend more Barbarian instead, especially if you're using PF rage powers.

Speaking of which, you mention it's 3.P but throughout your post I only saw 3.5 rules - XP penalties, XP for crafting, even the trip rules appear to be 3.5 since Knock-Down is a thing. What exactly are you using from PF? If it's class features, all the more reason not go splashing and dipping around, you're denying yourself some pretty powerful features if you do.

As I mentioned above, we use 3.5, in addition to more 3.5 compatible Pathfinder Chronicles materials. Thus, I'm not using PF rage powers. I'm using the standard barbarian from 3.5 players handbook.

There was a reason why many "old" pathfinder rules can still be found but have been replaced or updated to match the Core rules. That reason is explained above.

Regarding the ranger/rogue's skill points. I have absolutely no right to demand her to distribute her "plenty of remaining left-over" skill points the way I'd like them to be. It's her character, not mine. And I'm pretty sure she's going to improve her nature-skills.

Regarding my character's Int, I'm not following. Why would 9 skill points per level compared to only 5 skill points per level be a waste (+4 more per level)? Plus, I don't have to take exactly same skills as the ranger/rogue, would I? Of course, I'd take a reasonable amount of ranks in Search, so that I might aid the other one with finding traps, especially if they're made of stone, in which case I can notice them automatically as a dwarf. But I'm more interested in taking the athletic and acrobatic skills, such as Tumble and Balance. (I've already kept putting points into climb and jump regularly, as well as craft armorsmithing, because of reasons.)

And frankly, My Fortitude save is already at +13 with a +1 cloak of resistance, and added to that, +2 against spells, spell-like abilities, and poisons from being a dwarf. I have confidence in my chances with fortitude saves. I'm aware that my will saves might be a problem, but at this point, when barbarian base will has just become +2 and fighter base will has just become +1, taking rogue levels won't set me behind a normal progression. I think I can manage fort saves remaining unchanged for two levels, because after all, I did get +3 from fighter levels, and thus I'm two points ahead of the curve if compared to a full 9th level barbarian or 9th level fighter (in which case, base fortitude save would be just +6). Since I'm using medium armor, I know that Evasion will be unusable, but boosting my Reflexes will still count against all kinds of area damage, such as if we face a dragon at some point. Even halving the damage from the breath weapon helps a lot.

Also, I'm somewhat interested in Sneak Attacks, because landing a sneak attack will increase my chance to be able to use Knock-Down. Currently I'm dealing a minimum of 10 damage against large enemies (I have a bonus feat from the campaign that gives a +1 to attack and +2 to damage against Large or larger creatures, and I have a +4 belt of giant strength, so my damage modifier is already quite high), but I'd like to be able to deal a steady minimum of 10 points of damage against all targets, and getting sneak attacks can definitely help with that.

[Psyren]

You seem a bit defensive on this which suggests to me that you've already made up your mind.

If you're using 3.5 classes then you have less to lose by dipping around, so go for it.

[Nifft]

3.5e Barbarian has a level 3 ACF which gives you hilarious anti-trap power: take a look at the Trapkiller from Dungeonscape.

You use Survival to find traps, and you make an attack roll to disarm them.

No Rogue levels, and no cross-class skills.

[Arkhios]

You seem a bit defensive on this which suggests to me that you've already made up your mind.

If you're using 3.5 classes then you have less to lose by dipping around, so go for it.

It's not that I was defensive, but that I'd like to hear why it would be a waste, instead of just saying it's a waste without an explanation.

I think I'm roughly at 50:50 about this issue. I'm not that much concerned about the choice of class itself. It's more about would that 20% exp penalty be too much of a blow to take for 5 levels, even considering that my total XP is way ahead of the others, and that two of them are creating magic items (thus, losing some of their XP along the way as well).


3.5e Barbarian has a level 3 ACF which gives you hilarious anti-trap power: take a look at the Trapkiller from Dungeonscape.

You use Survival to find traps, and you make an attack roll to disarm them.

No Rogue levels, and no cross-class skills.

Unfortunately, as funny as the ACF looks like, I'm unable to use it. The only ACF's we can choose to take are from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, and there are only 1 for each class -- and most are related to specific regions. For example, the ACF's for both Barbarian and Rogue are out of question in this campaign, because the campaign is set in wrong region.