Mass Suggestion Mistake

[MarkVIIIMarc]

As a DM I am nowhere near as good at optimizing "my" bad guy's combat as when I'm a PC. As DM you have to pay attention to everyone's turn in combat instead of concentrating on yours coming up.

Last night I really goofed on Mass Suggestion. The bad guy had it and cast it. Half the party failed their saves. His command as stated was "sit criss-cross and take your pants off until I release you". It messed with those in armor who had to doff it but the darned bard just sat on the floor and hairy knees showing cast Shatter. I should have made taking his pants off be a whole action lol but it cracked me up.

I meant to have them tie themselves up sitting on the ground and hold their pants tight, I figured the holding would keep them from casting. The pants off part was just fitting for the group.

You all ever have any great critical fails with Suggestion or Mass Suggestion?

[nickl_2000]

I'm struggling in how a PC, when interacting with the BBEG, could possibly think that removing their pants and sitting on the ground would be reasonable.

Is the BBEG a super attractive NPC that the PCs would be interested in? Because then, okay I see that as reasonable.

[Tanarii]

I'm struggling in how a PC, when interacting with the BBEG, could possibly think that removing their pants and sitting on the ground would be reasonable.

Is the BBEG a super attractive NPC that the PCs would be interested in? Because then, okay I see that as reasonable.
Maybe s/he's their ex-kindergarten teacher? And even then the pants part would be weird.

[NaughtyTiger]

Well before the game,
I plan out the tactics I am going to use.
I script the phrases for command, suggestion.


Then as I am in the middle of combat:
describing the scene, coordinating dice rolls and damage, tracking turn order...
i forget that i had plans, use the wrong spell, usually forget to move the token...

Dm'ing is not easy for an old fogey.

[Corran]

We are playing SKT, I am playing a wizard. The group is travelling on a flying castle, the owners of which is a giant couple, who have agreed to drop as off at the home village of the party's fighter. Now, part of the fighter's backstory, was that he had a lot of older brothers, and all the brothers were very competitive to one another. So naturally, he was preparing for this session, as he wanted to show off to all his brothers and prove to them how big of an adventurer he had become. So I came up with the idea and told the fighter: ''It would be the best entrance if you just fell out of the sky! I have feather falling, so you'll be alright.'' The player playing the fighter really liked the idea, but he said that his character would probably not go along with such a plan however tempting it was, as the PC was afraid of heights. To which I said ooc: ''Well, I have suggestion prepared, and I have one bad roll on stock'' (divination wizard). The player playing the fighter smiled and nodded. He then suggested that it would be better if it was only him that entered the village that way, and we all agreed, as no one wanted to steal even a fraction of the glory the fighter was after. So suggestion is used, the fighter jumps from the castle walls, and feather fall is used on him. The fighter wants to do a superhero landing, yet the DM thinks this is a bit too much, so he grabs the phb to read the spell's description. After a few moments he goes: ''Yeah... you are flying a lot higher than 600 feet...''. My wizard goes: ''Oh s**t! Uhm, there is no easy way to say this, but he is probably dead....''. At this point the giant enters the scene: ''So, where do you want us to land the castle? Wait.... weren't there 5 of you?''. The bard shakes his head, and the gunslinger responds: ''We wont make a stop here afterall...''.
ps: The fighter lived and met up with us later in the session.

[Segev]

...I call "cheap shot" on the DM for not reminding you you're well over 600 feet from the ground before you did this stunt. The wizard doubtless knows when he has to cast feather fall during a fall to land safely, and the PCs, unlike the players, can clearly see how far to the ground it is.

[Corran]

...I call "cheap shot" on the DM for not reminding you you're well over 600 feet from the ground before you did this stunt. The wizard doubtless knows when he has to cast feather fall during a fall to land safely, and the PCs, unlike the players, can clearly see how far to the ground it is.
All true, but the tone of the campaign was entirely comic relief. So in a sense, instead of a superhero landing, the fighter simply landed with his face first, all while screaming while he was falling. The PC didn't break anything, didn't die, dice were not even rolled, he simply fell unconscious upon landing. And instead of showing off, he became even more of a laughing stock to his brothers and the village folk. So it was kind of a 'DM screws with players' moment, yes, albeit for completely different reasons than usual in such cases.

[sophontteks]

The suggestion itself doesn't have to be reasonable. It only has to be worded to sound reasonable.

"Take your pants off."
Not reasonable, failed suggestion.

"Your pants are covered in ants and must be removed."
Reasonable suggestion.

The suggestion can be completely absurd. It only has to be worded to sound reasonable. Huge difference. Afterall, if it was reasonable, you could just ask and save a spell slot.

For those looking to make the most of suggestion. The suggestion needs a justification. Just give it one and you are good to go.

[Master O'Laughs]

Sorry to jump in, but I remember once my DM had the wizard cast suggestion on my barbarian and simply said to "attack my allies." There may have been another line but at the time it just didn't sound like a reasonable for my PC to do.

Unless a PC is highly suspicious of his teammates, is there anyway to make a "Attack your allies" suggestions seem reasonable?

[sophontteks]

That would fall into being "Obviously self-harmful." In my opinion.

[clash]

"Those guys you think are your allies, are actually shapeshifters that took their place. You must defeat them to save your allies"

[Segev]

"Those guys you think are your allies, are actually shapeshifters that took their place. You must defeat them to save your allies"

...I am now amused by, "I have cast a mind-control spell on you, so you have no choice but to do everything I tell you to!" It's technically true, almost recursively.

[KillingTime]

Using Suggestion to force PCs (or NPCs) to attack their allies is well against the intended power level of the spell.

Suggestion is a level 2 spell.
Enemies Abound is a level 3 spell and can only randomly cause characters to attack their allies.
Not until level 4 (Dominate Beast) and level 5 (Dominate Person) can a caster actively force creatures to turn on their friends.

Suggestion is a great spell, but DMs really need to tone down what they deem to be reasonable.
In almost all cases I think it's a non-combat spell, since in the heat of battle very few things the caster can suggest are going to appear reasonable.

[sophontteks]

Suggestion can take someone out of the fight, but I think "obviously self-harmful" rules out pretty much any suggestion which will result in the target getting hurt. That is going to significantly hinder its in-combst potential.

If it wasn't for that clause it would be a broken spell because I can make just about anything sound reasonable.

[nickl_2000]

Suggestion can take someone out of the fight, but I think "obviously self-harmful" rules out pretty much any suggestion which will result in the target getting hurt. That is going to significantly hinder its in-combst potential.

The real power of suggestion comes from situational awareness and improvisation. My personal best use ever happened in combat. The suggestion was "Your commander has lost his mind and needs to be killed before he harms more innocents." This worked because in this case, the commander was possessed and had lost his mind. Beyond that he was, in fact, killing the innocents that he was charged to protect.

In most situations, this would be completely worthless since it's not reasonable. In this case, it was both reasonable and extremely helpful.



As a side note, the bad guy happened to crit twice against the commander killing him and thus freeing him from the suggestion. My bard cast levitation on himself, got out of combat reach with the suggested bad guy and viciously mocked him to deal.

[Tanarii]

Then as I am in the middle of combat:
describing the scene, coordinating dice rolls and damage, tracking turn order...
i forget that i had plans, use the wrong spell, usually forget to move the token...

Dm'ing is not easy for an old fogey.That's pretty much everything in every game. I glance at my notes ... then pretty much make up each encounter as I go.

I miss two line monster statblocks, let me tell you. I certainly don't miss late TSR "RPGs are about stories" flowery descriptions that didn't give any useful information though.

[sophontteks]

I make up for the things I miss with superficial effects and silly voices.
Oh, sure, I literally missed nearly every mechanic we can think of, but they were too busy laughing at my character's voice.

[Zalabim]

Sorry to jump in, but I remember once my DM had the wizard cast suggestion on my barbarian and simply said to "attack my allies." There may have been another line but at the time it just didn't sound like a reasonable for my PC to do.
Just reading this, I have the image of an enemy wizard casting suggestion and literally ordering, "Attack my allies." At least you wouldn't be attacking the wizard. This is the suggestion mistake thread, after all.