The difference between 'You can fly 10 ft', and 'You gain 10ft flying speed'

[Jerrykhor]

Is that the former apparently allow you to fly out of grapples, but the later cannot. I'm talking about Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic. You can thank Mr JC https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1024774411918827520

What do you think? Personally, I think JC's ruling is incredibly stupid. Most people would read either line and wouldn't see a difference in meaning. He wouldn't be wrong, if 5e didn't use plain English for the rules. You can't use plain English for one rule, and pedantic minute technical terms with strict definitions of key wordings in another. Where's the consistency?

Then again, JC is probably a troll. Who else would put Polymorph as '...target's stats including mental ability scores are changed...', and then 'target retains alignment and personality...' and not define either word? He probably had a good laugh seeing the players argue about the RP effects of the spell.

[ciarannihill]

Is that the former apparently allow you to fly out of grapples, but the later cannot. I'm talking about Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic. You can thank Mr JC https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1024774411918827520

What do you think? Personally, I think JC's ruling is incredibly stupid. Most people would read either line and wouldn't see a difference in meaning. He wouldn't be wrong, if 5e didn't use plain English for the rules. You can't use plain English for one rule, and pedantic minute technical terms with strict definitions of key wordings in another. Where's the consistency?

Then again, JC is probably a troll. Who else would put Polymorph as '...target's stats including mental ability scores are changed...', and then 'target retains alignment and personality...' and not define either word? He probably had a good laugh seeing the players argue about the RP effects of the spell.

I mean I would've intuitively thought that this is the difference...One is the ability to perform a single action as opposed to the other which distinctly changes one's abilities/characteristics. It likely also makes a difference for things like Haste -- the former would be unaffected while the latter would be affected. Seems distinct enough to me.

Seems like this is less of a post about the mechanical question and more another post to rag on Jeremy Crawford, and as with almost every other post I've seen attempting to do this it's largely reactionary and blows a corner case into a federal case... He's just telling you what RAI is, you don't have to obey it. Every sourcebook and JC himself encourage you to make rulings on your own as opposed to sifting for his answer to everything. You don't like what it means RAI? Just don't rule it that way...

[Eragon123]

Yeah, I've ragged on JC before but I actually agree with this ruling here.

Beyond the whole somewhat roundabout way of explaining it.

If you feel that is this unfair, it'd be reasonable to ask for a strength check us their spellcasting DC to hang on.

I understand general frustration with JC, I don't understand the frustration here.

(My main surprise is that he ruled in favor of sorcerers....)

[Jerrykhor]

I still believe Temptestuous Magic is referencing your own speed, because it mentions not provoking OA. It has to mention that as an exemption to the rule, because only movement by your own speed will provoke it.

[mephnick]

You can't use plain English for one rule, and pedantic minute technical terms with strict definitions of key wordings in another. Where's the consistency.

First of all, I agree with his ruling (a rarity), but yes, this is a major problem with the design of 5e. They jump back and forth between vague "casual language as rules" and "no, this one is actually technical language" and it leads to a lot of confusion. Just think of all the "it's a ranged weapon attack but not an attack with a ranged weapon" lawyer crap and then mirror that with the "stealth is meant to be vague and narratively adjudicated by the DM". Like, use a consistent voice.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The difference is also that you can't dash or use haste to increase that movement. There's good reason for that distinction to be made, considering this is a low level class ability and giving any actual flight speed might have been too powerful.

In this instance and given the context of your "complaint" it actually is a relatively useful ability regardless because Grappling is often considered a good way to stop a spellcaster and this is a built in escape where the spellcaster probably wouldn't have been able to make the contested check.

My take on it: It makes sense. If distinctions like this weren't important, they wouldn't have been made.

Grapple only prevents you from making use of your Speed to move, even making specific mention of Thunderwave being able to break a grapple. This effect specifically doesn't mention speed, instead only saying that you "Fly up to 10 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity". Compare it directly to the 18th level feature for Storm Sorcerer's (or any other effect that grants a creature a fly speed) and you'll the wording is intended to be different.

What counts as movement tied to your speed and otherwise is very specific in the PHB, and the rules that would affect you from using Speed or moving at all are also very specific. Can't Move (Paralyzed, Petrified, Unconscious) is different from Speed is 0 (Restrained).


I still believe Temptestuous Magic is referencing your own speed, because it mentions not provoking OA. It has to mention that as an exemption to the rule, because only movement by your own speed will provoke it.

OA specifies "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." this movement is tied to your Bonus Action and thus would normally leave you open to an OA.

I don't really understand the complaints of some things getting technical. Specific beats General is mentioned in the PHB, those Specifics are the technical bits added out of necessity to keep some game mechanics from falling apart. Combat wouldn't function without these aspects. I'd wager there's a correlation between how specific the rules get and how much they have to do with combat related mechanics.

[ciarannihill]

The difference is also that you can't dash or use haste to increase that movement. There's good reason for that distinction to be made, considering this is a low level class ability and giving any actual flight speed might have been too powerful.

In this instance and given the context of your "complaint" it actually is a relatively useful ability regardless because Grappling is often considered a good way to stop a spellcaster and this is a built in escape where the spellcaster probably wouldn't have been able to make the contested check.

My take on it: It makes sense. If distinctions like this weren't important, they wouldn't have been made.

Grapple only prevents you from making use of your Speed to move, even making specific mention of Thunderwave being able to break a grapple. This effect specifically doesn't mention speed, instead only saying that you "Fly up to 10 feet without provoking attacks of opportunity". Compare it directly to the 18th level feature for Storm Sorcerer's (or any other effect that grants a creature a fly speed) and you'll the wording is intended to be different.

What counts as movement tied to your speed and otherwise is very specific in the PHB, and the rules that would affect you from using Speed or moving at all are also very specific. Can't Move (Paralyzed, Petrified, Unconscious) is different from Speed is 0 (Restrained).



OA specifies "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." this movement is tied to your Bonus Action and thus would normally leave you open to an OA.

I don't really understand the complaints of some things getting technical. Specific beats General is mentioned in the PHB, those Specifics are the technical bits added out of necessity to keep some game mechanics from falling apart. Combat wouldn't function without these aspects. I'd wager there's a correlation between how specific the rules get and how much they have to do with combat related mechanics.

Another point of note, albeit unlikely to matter given the short range, is that with movement speed you can split your movement. Move 5 feet, act, then move the other 5 feet. With this it appears to require the entire movement take place at once without being split, which is a potentially important distinction.

[Unoriginal]

Is that the former apparently allow you to fly out of grapples, but the later cannot. I'm talking about Storm Sorceror's Tempestuous Magic. You can thank Mr JC https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1024774411918827520

What do you think? Personally, I think JC's ruling is incredibly stupid.

It's a perfectly logical disctinction, sorry to say.



Most people would read either line and wouldn't see a difference in meaning. He wouldn't be wrong, if 5e didn't use plain English for the rules. You can't use plain English for one rule, and pedantic minute technical terms with strict definitions of key wordings in another. Where's the consistency?

It's consistent, this ruling IS using plain English.

"You gain a 10ft flying speed" means that you use your turn's movement to do it, and all the things that affect speed, like grappling, or Dash, affect it. And if you have a 10ft flying speed, and use those 10ft, you are out of movement for the rest of your turn.

"You can fly 10ft" means that you're using the ability to do that, independently of the rest of your movement.

So imagining a character somehow had both the Sorcerer's ability and a Dash the same turn, assuming a 30ft ground speed, said character could walk 60ft and then fly 10ft more.

While if they had a 10ft flying speed, and used Dash, they'd only get 20ft of flight and then couldn't move more on their turn.

So yeah, it's plain English.



Then again, JC is probably a troll. Who else would put Polymorph as '...target's stats including mental ability scores are changed...', and then 'target retains alignment and personality...' and not define either word? He probably had a good laugh seeing the players argue about the RP effects of the spell.

That's absurd, the definitions are already provided by the bloody books, the meaning is clear.

Mental ability scores are WIS, INT and CHA. Alignement and personality are what you write in the "alignment", "Bond", "Trait" and "Flaw" section of your sheet.

I think you hate Crawford and that you're using this opportunity to rant.



I still believe Temptestuous Magic is referencing your own speed

Well you are wrong about that, though. JC just confirmed it wasn't referencing your own speed. You can houserule it however you prefer, on the other hand.



because it mentions not provoking OA. It has to mention that as an exemption to the rule, because only movement by your own speed will provoke it.

It mentions that it doesn't provoke AoO because it's not a movement using your own speed, but a Bonus action, like ProsecutorGodot.



I'm not sure why you hate on this when it makes Tempestuous Magic much better than if it just gave you a 10ft flying speed.

You can use it to break out of any grapple or grapple-like ability, and move more than what would normally be allowed for your character (and doesn't actually reduce your movement per round like a 10ft flying speed would).

[Cynthaer]

Yeah, it all makes perfect sense to me. And I have no idea what you're on about with the Polymorph stuff, nor what that has to do with the flying ruling.

[Xetheral]

While I understand that Tempestuous Magic lets you move in addition to using your speed, I find it absurd to rule that it therefore bypasses all effects that in-universe restict movement, like Grappled or Restrained. For example, I would rule that webs that stop a creature from using its fly speed would also stop a creature from flying by any other means, including Tempestuous Magic. After all, the webs don't cease to exist just because you're using a mode of movement separate from your speed--they're still there obstructing movement.

[Potato_Priest]

While I understand that Tempestuous Magic lets you move in addition to using your speed, I find it absurd to rule that it therefore bypasses all effects that in-universe restict movement, like Grappled or Restrained. For example, I would rule that webs that stop a creature from using its fly speed would also stop a creature from flying by any other means, including Tempestuous Magic. After all, the webs don't cease to exist just because you're using a mode of movement separate from your speed--they're still there obstructing movement.

I concur, and would rule the same way, but this is unfortunately not the RAW of the situation.

To add to the confusion, if a creature restrained by Entangle uses this ability to move out of the area of the plants, it is still restrained by them until it succeeds its strength check or the spell ends.

[Cynthaer]

While I understand that Tempestuous Magic lets you move in addition to using your speed, I find it absurd to rule that it therefore bypasses all effects that in-universe restict movement, like Grappled or Restrained. For example, I would rule that webs that stop a creature from using its fly speed would also stop a creature from flying by any other means, including Tempestuous Magic. After all, the webs don't cease to exist just because you're using a mode of movement separate from your speed--they're still there obstructing movement.
As far as ending a grapple goes, I think it's the same abstraction that kicks in when you break a grapple by forcibly moving the grappler.

You could argue that pushing me 10 ft backward has nothing to do with breaking my grip on an opponent, but the assumption is that the effect pushes you in such a way as to also break your grip. Ultimately, this rule is less about hard realism and more about tactically interesting and reasonably intuitive combat.

I certainly see nothing wrong with ruling that Tempestuous Magic won't get you through a specific obstacle such as webs, or even houseruling that it won't break any restricting conditions at all.

Personally, I think it's usually more interesting to let it bypass restrictions where it's reasonable, because "something happens" is almost always more engaging than "nothing happens".

[sophontteks]

JC's ruling makes sense. I'm actually confused why its a ruling at all.

If tempestuous magic just gave you 10 feet of flying movement, you would be forced to choose between 10 feet of flying OR your normal movement (or some combination). That's terrible!

Your speed IS irrelevant to it. You can fly 10 feet after you cast a spell, even if its not your turn, even if you are grappled, even if your speed is 0.

Think about what the ability does. A literal burst of air propels you away. You are not moving at all. The air is moving you.

[MaxWilson]

While I understand that Tempestuous Magic lets you move in addition to using your speed, I find it absurd to rule that it therefore bypasses all effects that in-universe restict movement, like Grappled or Restrained. For example, I would rule that webs that stop a creature from using its fly speed would also stop a creature from flying by any other means, including Tempestuous Magic. After all, the webs don't cease to exist just because you're using a mode of movement separate from your speed--they're still there obstructing movement.

If Repelling Blast and Thorn Whip can move creatures out of a grapple without making any kind of a check, I have no problem with a blast of wind from Tempestuous Magic being able to do the same thing.

I can imagine implementing some kind of a contest or limit on magical movement from Repelling Blast/Thorn Whip/Tempestuous Magic when you're grappled/restrained, but I haven't felt the need to do so yet. If I were going to limit one, I'd limit them all.

[Unoriginal]

JC's ruling makes sense. I'm actually confused why its a ruling at all.

It's not a ruling, Crawford was just explaining the rule to someone who wasn't sure.


While I understand that Tempestuous Magic lets you move in addition to using your speed, I find it absurd to rule that it therefore bypasses all effects that in-universe restict movement, like Grappled or Restrained. For example, I would rule that webs that stop a creature from using its fly speed would also stop a creature from flying by any other means, including Tempestuous Magic. After all, the webs don't cease to exist just because you're using a mode of movement separate from your speed--they're still there obstructing movement.

I think sophontteks put it best:



Think about what the ability does. A literal burst of air propels you away. You are not moving at all. The air is moving you.

The burst of air is simply stronger than most restrains.

It's as if you were using a Repelling Blast on yourself, basically.

[sophontteks]

It's not a ruling, Crawford was just explaining the rule to someone who wasn't sure.
Ah, makes sense. Yeah gaining 10 feet of flying speed would be a really bad ability.
Or, a really amazing ability, since it never ends this flying speed it gives you. You'd just be gaining another 10 feet of flying speed every time you cast a spell.

[Xetheral]

Think about what the ability does. A literal burst of air propels you away. You are not moving at all. The air is moving you.


If Repelling Blast and Thorn Whip can move creatures out of a grapple without making any kind of a check, I have no problem with a blast of wind from Tempestuous Magic being able to do the same thing.

I can imagine implementing some kind of a contest or limit on magical movement from Repelling Blast/Thorn Whip/Tempestuous Magic when you're grappled/restrained, but I haven't felt the need to do so yet. If I were going to limit one, I'd limit them all.


The burst of air is simply stronger than most restrains.

It's as if you were using a Repelling Blast on yourself, basically.

If Tempestuous Magic involved the character being propelled by a sudden, violent burst of air, these arguments might convince me. But that's not what the ability does: it gives the sorcerer the ability to fly (via whirling air gusts). To me, that implies controlled flight, which should be subject to all the same limitations as other forms of controlled flight.

To my knowledge, this is the only non-teleportation ability in the game that lets a character with zero movement speed move themselves. Am I correct? Or am I overlooking other, similar abilities?

[sophontteks]

If Tempestuous Magic involved the character being propelled by a sudden, violent burst of air, these arguments might convince me. But that's not what the ability does: it gives the sorcerer the ability to fly (via whirling air gusts). To me, that implies controlled flight, which should be subject to all the same limitations as other forms of controlled flight.

To my knowledge, this is the only non-teleportation ability in the game that lets a character with zero movement speed move themselves. Am I correct? Or am I overlooking other, similar abilities?
So you are saying because you can control the gusts, the gusts aren't moving you?
When I drive my car, am I moving myself? or is the car moving me? Does the fact that I control the car make any difference at all?
The amount of force it would take for a gust of air to propel you into the air 10 feet is quite high, and the ability is an instant effect. Its nothing remotely similar to, say, growing wings and using your own movement.

I am not aware of any other abilities off the top of my head that allow free instant movement at all. What abilities are you comparing it to?

[MaxWilson]

To my knowledge, this is the only non-teleportation ability in the game that lets a character with zero movement speed move themselves. Am I correct? Or am I overlooking other, similar abilities?

Repelling Eldritch Blast can move you if you target the Tarrasque with it.


Reflective Carapace. Any time the tarrasque is targeted by a magic missile spell, a line spell, or a spell that requires a ranged attack roll, roll a d6. On a 1 to 5, the tarrasque is unaffected. On a 6, the tarrasque is unaffected, and the effect is reflected back at the caster as though it originated from the tarrasque, turning the caster into the target.

[Xetheral]

So you are saying because you can control the gusts, the gusts aren't moving you?
When I drive my car, am I moving myself? or is the car moving me? Does the fact that I control the car make any difference at all?
The amount of force it would take for a gust of air to propel you into the air 10 feet is quite high, and the ability is an instant effect. Its nothing remotely similar to, say, growing wings and using your own movement.

I'm saying that you're moving as the result of force applied smoothly over 10', as opposed to a single thrust strong enough to propel you 10 ft. For example, with Tempestuous Magic you can fly 5' in one direction, then turn and fly 5' in another. You can also choose to move 5' in one direction and then choose not to go any farther. That's much more analogous to growing wings and flying that it is to being blasted out of a Web spell by a Repelling Eldritch Blast.


Repelling Eldritch Blast can move you if you target the Tarrasque with it.

Good find. :) Unlike Tempestuous Magic though, deliberately reflecting a Repelling Eldritch Blast off the Tarrasque doesn't give you the ability to move as you will... instead it moves you a predetermined distance in a predetermined direction.

[ciarannihill]

I'm saying that you're moving as the result of force applied smoothly over 10', as opposed to a single thrust strong enough to propel you 10 ft. For example, with Tempestuous Magic you can fly 5' in one direction, then turn and fly 5' in another. You can also choose to move 5' in one direction and then choose not to go any farther. That's much more analogous to growing wings and flying that it is to being blasted out of a Web spell by a Repelling Eldritch Blast.

It's possible I'm reading it wrong, but the implication is that it's 10ft in one direction, uninterrupted.

At 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.

It doesn't work the same way as normal movement, it's not a movement speed. You can do it partially, but splitting it up or zigzagging appears to be outside of what is described. A DM might rule that you can do that, but as written it appears to be a single 10ft movement in a singular direction.

[Xetheral]

It's possible I'm reading it wrong, but the implication is that it's 10ft in one direction, uninterrupted.

At 1st level, you can use a bonus action on your turn to cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you, immediately before or after you cast a spell of 1st level or higher. Doing so allows you to fly up to 10 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.

It doesn't work the same way as normal movement, it's not a movement speed. You can do it partially, but splitting it up or zigzagging appears to be outside of what is described. A DM might rule that you can do that, but as written it appears to be a single 10ft movement in a singular direction.

Then we're reading it differently. I agree you have to make the movement all at once, but I see no reason it all has to be in the same direction, or that you have to decide in advance how much of the movement you want to use (both of which would be necessary if Tempestuous Magic was a sudden force launching you, rather than a continual force smoothly applied over 10').

Given how I read the ability as working, does it make sense to you that I find it absurd that it would let you ignorere movement restrictions like Grappled or Restrained?

[Zalabim]

I concur, and would rule the same way, but this is unfortunately not the RAW of the situation.

To add to the confusion, if a creature restrained by Entangle uses this ability to move out of the area of the plants, it is still restrained by them until it succeeds its strength check or the spell ends.
I imagine this works in the same way that a creature restrained by being properly tied up with rope, or caught in a thrown net, would still be restrained by the rope after being shoved, pulled, or conceivably even teleported. Evard's Black Tentacles uses the same "restrained by the spellstuff until the spell ends" wording (then says how a restrained creature can try to break free), but Web does not. Web says "restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free." But then Web also lasts up to an hour, not just up to a minute.

[sophontteks]

I'm saying that you're moving as the result of force applied smoothly over 10', as opposed to a single thrust strong enough to propel you 10 ft. For example, with Tempestuous Magic you can fly 5' in one direction, then turn and fly 5' in another. You can also choose to move 5' in one direction and then choose not to go any farther. That's much more analogous to growing wings and flying that it is to being blasted out of a Web spell by a Repelling Eldritch Blast.



Good find. :) Unlike Tempestuous Magic though, deliberately reflecting a Repelling Eldritch Blast off the Tarrasque doesn't give you the ability to move as you will... instead it moves you a predetermined distance in a predetermined direction.

The way you are imagining it, your flying speed would be 10 feet. If you have a movement speed of 30 feet, we could conclude that you are flying at 1/3 the speed you can run in a nice smooth movement analogous to wings.

The way its written is, you instantly fly up to 10 feet. The effect is so dramatic and sudden its akin to teleporting. Its not subtracted from your total movement, at all, and it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. You fly up to 10 feet away in a snap of your fingers.

And there is no way this could possibly happen smoothly just because of physics. An object in motion stays in motion. The amount of force required for a gust of wind to propel someone 10 feet into the air is incredibly high. The amount of force for said object to change direction midair is nowhere near this.

[TheUser]

"You gain 10ft flying speed" means you must be able to spend movement to fly

"You can fly 10 ft" precludes the need for movement to be spent and does not give any restrictions on what stops you from flying.

Clearly you can have a 5 tonne dragon with it's claws dug deep into you and can fly right out of it's clutches yes?

[sophontteks]

"You gain 10ft flying speed" means you must be able to spend movement to fly

"You can fly 10 ft" precludes the need for movement to be spent and does not give any restrictions on what stops you from flying.

Clearly you can have a 5 tonne dragon with it's claws dug deep into you and can fly right out of it's clutches yes?
Yep, just like casting the gust cantrip on an ally in the same situation.
Or, if you don't like being fancy, shoving an ally.
I prefer gust of wind myself. But people think it blows.

[Xetheral]

The way its written is, you instantly fly up to 10 feet. The effect is so dramatic and sudden its akin to teleporting. Its not subtracted from your total movement, at all, and it doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. You fly up to 10 feet away in a snap of your fingers.

(Emphasis added.) The ability says that you: "cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you". I see nothing in that description to support the assertions that I've bolded above. In particular, "swirling gusts of air" does not suggest to me that the effect must be so dramatic and sudden to be akin to teleportng. And "briefly" is not synonymous with either "instantaneously" or "in a snap of your fingers".

Moreover, mechanically the effect says that it "allows you to fly up to 10 feet". Allowing you to fly is very different than throwing you or launching you 10' in a given direction. For example, an explosion might throw you 10' backwards through the air, and it would be reasonable to say that you "flew through the air". It would not be reasonable to say that the explosion "allowed you to fly 10'".


And there is no way this could possibly happen smoothly just because of physics. An object in motion stays in motion. The amount of force required for a gust of wind to propel someone 10 feet into the air is incredibly high. The amount of force for said object to change direction midair is nowhere near this.

I see nothing that says the effect "propels" the sorcerer 10 feet into the air. The whirling air gusts could, e.g., briefly lift the Sorcerer 1" into the air, slide them 5' east, then 5' north, then dissipate. Alternatively, if the Sorcerer chose to use the flight to move 10' straight up, the whirling air gusts can apply a force continuously over the entire distance. The amount of force in question is almost identical in both cases: it's equal to the sorcerer's weight, plus an amount sufficient to accelerate the (weightless) mass of the sorcercer and then decelerate them (nothing in the ability says you arrive with an excess velocity vector). In the zig-zag example, the amount of force is slightly higher since it requires acceleration in multiple directions each acting over only half the "brief" duration.

[Tanarii]

This is a fairly poorly written ability. Unsurprisingly, because originally SCAG. But nothing indicates it is not willing movement on its turn.

The bigger problem, and why it is poorly written, is that it breaks a previously existing underlying assumption in the rules: that reducing a creatures speed to 0 meant it can not willingly move on its turn. If that's the intended use of it, it needed to be written far better. Too many spells and effects depend on that assumption.

[sophontteks]

(Emphasis added.) The ability says that you: "cause whirling gusts of elemental air to briefly surround you". I see nothing in that description to support the assertions that I've bolded above. In particular, "swirling gusts of air" does not suggest to me that the effect must be so dramatic and sudden to be akin to teleportng. And "briefly" is not synonymous with either "instantaneously" or "in a snap of your fingers".

Moreover, mechanically the effect says that it "allows you to fly up to 10 feet". Allowing you to fly is very different than throwing you or launching you 10' in a given direction. For example, an explosion might throw you 10' backwards through the air, and it would be reasonable to say that you "flew through the air". It would not be reasonable to say that the explosion "allowed you to fly 10'".



I see nothing that says the effect "propels" the sorcerer 10 feet into the air. The whirling air gusts could, e.g., briefly lift the Sorcerer 1" into the air, slide them 5' east, then 5' north, then dissipate. Alternatively, if the Sorcerer chose to use the flight to move 10' straight up, the whirling air gusts can apply a force continuously over the entire distance. The amount of force in question is almost identical in both cases: it's equal to the sorcerer's weight, plus an amount sufficient to accelerate the (weightless) mass of the sorcercer and then decelerate them (nothing in the ability says you arrive with an excess velocity vector). In the zig-zag example, the amount of force is slightly higher since it requires acceleration in multiple directions each acting over only half the "brief" duration.
You are emphasizing the fluff and ignoring what the ability does. I mean you are making so many assumptions an a literal sentence of text here. I mean, the idea that you can zig zag is the most controversial thing here. Where in this text does it say you can zig zag?

You see nothing about where it happens at instant speed? Its not an action. Its not a part of your movement. That is instant speed. How else could someone possibly fly 10 feet and move 60 feet in a dash? If it took any amount of time at all your movement speed would be reduced. A round is 6 seconds of real time. A person can run 60 feet in 10 seconds. If it took 1 second to fly 10 feet, they would only be able to cover 50 feet of ground in that same time frame. Right?

The ability does not allow the sorcerer to stay in the air at all. They would immediately fall 10 feet if they go straight up. That heavily implies a strong burst of force. How could it possibly be continuous when its NOT continuous!!!

Not to mention the fact that the force required to lift someone 10 feet is just clearly not the same as the force required to keep someone motionless 10 feet in the air.

[Tanarii]

I mean you are making so many assumptions an a literal sentence of text here.
He irony of this statement, followed by an entire post of assumptions, exploded the forums just a little bit. Definitely a hiccup at least. :smallamused:

[sophontteks]

He irony of this statement, followed by an entire post of assumptions, exploded the forums just a little bit. Definitely a hiccup at least. :smallamused:
When you take a fluff sentence and try to guess how the mechanics work, you are making an assumption.
When you take a fluff sentence to explain how the mechanics work, you are not making an assumption.

Its a confusing ability granted, many people have thought it gives you a 10 foot flying speed and that the sorcerer can just hover in the air and such. I'm not assuming anything, I'm explaining how it works.

[Xetheral]

You are emphasizing the fluff and ignoring what the ability does. I mean you are making so many assumptions an a literal sentence of text here. I mean, the idea that you can zig zag is the most controversial thing here. Where in this text does it say you can zig zag?

I made arguments about both the descriptive text and the mechanics in the first two paragraphs (respectively) of my last post. The mechanical effect says that it "allows you to fly up to 10 feet". It does not say that all 10 feet have to be in the same direction.

We are apparently starting from different interpretive baselines here: you believe that if an ability allows you to move up to 10' it has to all be in a straight line. I disagree, and think that if an ability allows you to move up to 10' you can move in any combination of directions you want as long as the total distance is 10'.


You see nothing about where it happens at instant speed? Its not an action. Its not a part of your movement. That is instant speed.

The ability explicitly takes a bonus action to activate. So your assertion is false.


How else could someone possibly fly 10 feet and move 60 feet in a dash?

You can't, unless the spell activating Tempestuous Magic is a reaction spell or you're under the effect of Haste. Otherwise you don't have enough actions to (1) cast a spell of 1st level or higher, (2) spend a bonus action to activate Tempestuous Magic, and (3) spend an action to Dash.


If it took any amount of time at all your movement speed would be reduced. A round is 6 seconds of real time. A person can run 60 feet in 10 seconds. If it took 1 second to fly 10 feet, they would only be able to cover 50 feet of ground in that same time frame. Right?

The ability requires a bonus action. That's a sufficient investment of time that I see no contradiction with the movement speed rules, which are already quite abstract.


The ability does not allow the sorcerer to stay in the air at all. They would immediately fall 10 feet if they go straight up. That heavily implies a strong burst of force.

I never claimed it allows the ability to stay in the air after the effect ends. In my zig zag example, the character falls one inch once the movement is over. In my 10' straight up example, the character falls 10'. The fact that the character falls is true both if they are lifted by a sudden burst of force and if they are lifted by a force acting smoothly over 10'.



How could it possibly be continuous when its NOT continuous!!!

I haven't found convincing any of your explanations so far as to why the force can't be continuous. I'm therefore certainly not going to find convincing a conclusory assertion.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is a fairly poorly written ability. Unsurprisingly, because originally SCAG. But nothing indicates it is not willing movement on its turn.

The bigger problem, and why it is poorly written, is that it breaks a previously existing underlying assumption in the rules: that reducing a creatures speed to 0 meant it can not willingly move on its turn. If that's the intended use of it, it needed to be written far better. Too many spells and effects depend on that assumption.

Why are you making an assumption that having your speed reduced to zero stops you from willingly moving? Teleportation via spells like Misty Step is willing movement, the only reason it also doesn't provoke OA is because it's given specific exception. The wording on Misty step is actually very similar to this ability, the only drastic difference is that Tempestuous Magic is not teleportation.


He irony of this statement, followed by an entire post of assumptions, exploded the forums just a little bit. Definitely a hiccup at least. :smallamused:

Following with this, you've created a singularity of Irony.

[Tanarii]

Following with this, you've created a singularity of Irony.Yah that occured to me but I posted it anyway. :smallbiggrin: