Why Doesn't Hel Spruce Up Her Afterlife?

[Zenzis]

I don't know if there is a DND cosmology reason for this with all the complex afterlives. Is there any reason Hel couldn't just make her afterlife a bit nicer? It would really encourage dwarves to not be so worried about dying with honor, and thus grant her a good deal more souls.

[hroþila]

I don't know if there is a DND cosmology reason for this with all the complex afterlives. Is there any reason Hel couldn't just make her afterlife a bit nicer? It would really encourage dwarves to not be so worried about dying with honor, and thus grant her a good deal more souls.
Because Hel is Evil, not a publicist.

I don't know.

[zinycor]

I don't know if there is a DND cosmology reason for this with all the complex afterlives. Is there any reason Hel couldn't just make her afterlife a bit nicer? It would really encourage dwarves to not be so worried about dying with honor, and thus grant her a good deal more souls.

Damn!! That's a good question!! Maybe she can't? Maybe even if she could, she wouldn't because she is a bitch

[Snails]

Axiom: Evil gods like being Evil.

Hurting people for both power and pleasure is just who they are.

So maybe it is not a logical necessity for Hel's domain to be awful, but it is a convenience for inflicting suffering.

[Sylian]

Hel seems fairly emotional, so I don't think she'd enjoy treating the souls well (assuming she's even able to do that, she doesn't strike me as someone who really understands what makes people happy). Even if she did spruce it out, how would she spread the word? All of her clerics are undead, after all. I suppose someone who went to Hel and was raised could tell people that it's not that bad anymore, although I doubt that would happen often at all (and people might be reluctant to believe them).

[Snails]

Zenzis' question is both the best and worst question I have ever read on these boards. :smallbiggrin:

Let's go whole hog... Can you imagine a campaign world where dying dishonorably was considered a better fate than dying with honor?

[JavaScribe]

For the same reason she thought giving up clerics would be a good idea; She's completely entitled and self-centered. Other peoples' desires do not occur to her, even in the sense of how to manipulate them. There's a reason she doesn't have any followers, when even other evil gods do.

[Jama7301]

Aren't their afterlives some kind of reflection of their domains and alignments? If sprucing up her image makes her more appealing, she may have to cut some things out of her reach, or try to encroach on one of the other gods' turf, and as it stands, she probably doesn't have the power to put up too much of a fight. After the world is destroyed though...

[NecroDancer]

i'm pretty sure that Hel is weak compared to the other gods because she doesn't have many followers. She might not have the divine power to change or alter her realm.

[Gullintanni]

Spruce trees are not native to Nifelheim; and building an interplanar supply chain without a high priest on the prime material is an absolute nightmare. :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

i'm pretty sure that Hel is weak compared to the other gods because she doesn't have many followers. She might not have the divine power to change or alter her realm.
I'm sure she's powerful enough to stop tormenting her captives.

[Luna_Mayflower]

For the same reason she thought giving up clerics would be a good idea; She's completely entitled and self-centered. Other peoples' desires do not occur to her, even in the sense of how to manipulate them. There's a reason she doesn't have any followers, when even other evil gods do.

You're talking about my future wife! I mean, after I help her murder Thor and take over the world... but yeah, learn some respect!

[Jama7301]

I'm sure she's powerful enough to stop tormenting her captives.

I've always wondered about that. I wonder if Evil deities draw some power from suffering, instead of just devotion.

Regardless, Hel's soul-funded credit card might be a little low, balance wise. She can't pay the Infernal Decorators to update the decor.

[Themrys]

Spruce trees are not native to Nifelheim; and building an interplanar supply chain without a high priest on the prime material is an absolute nightmare. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't importing trees render it even more unappealing to dwarves?

Except to the warriors, of course ... perhaps she can't spruce up her afterlife because Thor already gets all the spruce trees for Valhalla where the warriors fight them inbetween the feasting.


Seriously, tho, it shouldn't be that hard for her to improve her afterlife. She's more nuanced in the original mythology, and certainly wouldn't encroach on someone else's territory by just not tormenting dwarf souls.

Problem is, she's a self-centered jerk, so it possibly never occurred to her that she might get more souls if she was nicer to them.

(How bad, exactly, is she, though? I don't think she actively tortures anyone, she seems much too self-centered to put that much effort into it, so if she doesn't have people who do the torturing for her, ordering the dwarves around and giving them diseases if they annoy her, might be all she does. Being made to clean a giant chair and then be yelled at for doing exactly that is not nice, but it also isn't much like the descriptions of Christian hell. Arguably, Tarquin puts more effort into being Evil with a capital E; what with the phoenix liver eating and all that.)

[Reathin]

Basically, because Hel is the divine equivalent of an emo teen. She's entirely self-centered and completely oblivious to other people's problems, isn't at all grateful for having a better life than a great majority of other beings (she's a literal goddess, after all), she doesn't get along with her family (although this is mostly on Loki...). Changing her plane, if that's a possible thing, would involve changing her perspective from "why isn't the world doing everything MY way! I deserve it!", putting aside immediate gratification (ie. hurting beings she doesn't like) in an effort to achieve long term goals, and ultimately just growing up. Unlike mortals, she's entirely capable of just deciding not to grow up, so she wallows in her situation and tries to get others to make sacrifices (in several senses of the phrase) for her own benefit (ie. destroying every living thing for her own empowerment).

[brian 333]

As a person who has spent some time as a service tech, I have entered hundreds of homes. You would be very surprised to see what people who are not a part of your circle consider atteactive decor. I am reminded of a living room with a tan wall, a pink wall, and a green wall with a heavy texture ceiling impregnated with glitter and blue trim. This color scheme was apparently created by a well paid interior decorator. Did I mention the Tiffany Lamp I had to install upside-down as a ceiling fixture?

Hel may think her decor is both stylish and hip.

[Fyraltari]

That sounds like work.

[archon_huskie]

Wouldn't importing trees render it even more unappealing to dwarves?



That was my line of thought too.

But Hell's Domain appears to be under ground. so it should have roots coming out of the walls.

[jwhouk]

Zenzis' question is both the best and worst question I have ever read on these boards. :smallbiggrin:

Let's go whole hog... Can you imagine a campaign world where dying dishonorably was considered a better fate than dying with honor?

I can even volunteer a race to do it: TROLLS!

(The ones that hide under bridges, not the weird ones with the long, stand-up, multi-color hair...)

[DaggerPen]

I'm sure she's powerful enough to stop tormenting her captives.

Oh yeah, this.

I recall when the discussion thread for 1084 came out commenting that if Hel didn't make her afterlife so terrible, she wouldn't have dwarves going so hard out of their way to avoid it. My bet is that she never even considered making her afterlife pleasant after the bet, because she's incredibly self-centered and never thought for a second that she wouldn't be able to just sit back and reap the rewards of undeserved souls. But then when Thor told the dwarves about the bet, and the dwarves went out of their way to avoid going to her afterlife, the damage was done, and without living clerics, even if she did make her afterlife more pleasant, it would be difficult to spread word of it without clerics. She might still have some better luck if she eased off now, even if she can't throw a party to rival Valhalla, but I doubt she has any interest in trying, because she's not really the altruistic sort. She can't even manage to be grateful to people who've tried to help her if it doesn't go exactly the way she wanted.

(None of that, of course, gets her off the hook for the situation in the first place.)

[The MunchKING]

Part of it is she's the Northern God of Disease and Decay and Undeath and other nasty stuff, so she's got a pretty gothy sense of style most likely.

The other thing is at least in the other versions of Helheim, it's explicitly a place of punishment for not dying well. So it's SUPPOSED to be a punishment for Dwarves who couldn't die honorably here too is my guess.

[Particle_Man]

Could be the divine equivalent of the person that is too depressed to clean up their home.

Or, losing the bet makes her angry, and she doesn't want to let go of that anger, and making her place nicer would distract her from the anger she feels at losing the bet.

[DaggerPen]

Part of it is she's the Northern God of Disease and Decay and Undeath and other nasty stuff, so she's got a pretty gothy sense of style most likely.

I'm not really the clubbing type, but I'm pretty sure there are some pretty chill Goth clubs out there. Set out some absinthe and cushy leather chairs or something.


The other thing is at least in the other versions of Helheim, it's explicitly a place of punishment for not dying well. So it's SUPPOSED to be a punishment for Dwarves who couldn't die honorably here too is my guess.

It's possible, but I find myself kind of skeptical of that, since it's explicitly the result of a bet about whether souls or clerics are more important.

[Fyraltari]

The other thing is at least in the other versions of Helheim, it's explicitly a place of punishment for not dying well

Unless I am severely mistaken, that come from the later, Christian-influenced, versions.

The older myths had several, quite different afterlives including one at Freya's, possibly some reincarnation and warrior heaven, Valhalla (where you don't necessarily have to due in battle to get to).
Helheim was more the "miscalleanous" afterlife, where most people would go and just live mundane, earth-like lives, for eternity (but kind of colorless) not unlike some versions of the Fields of Elysium, actually. Unless you were a truly terrible person, in which case you become snake snack.

[Jama7301]

I think we're missing the forest for the trees here.

Hel is Evil. This is a D&D based world. I doubt capital E Evil afterlives are nice places. Sure, they may promise you power and glory for serving them well in your life, but I'd put even money on them screwing you over in death, and treating you like the rest of the people there. An Evil recruitment campaign would just be lying to people, promising them the world, and never letting them see where they're destined to end up.

[Anymage]

It's a trope in a lot of stories that hugely powerful mythical beings are tightly bound to their natures, and the stickverse outer planes exist to strip away all your human quirks until you're ultimately soul-stuff that is in perfect alignment with the plane. As a hugely powerful outsider composed of soul stuff, I don't know that Hel is even capable of becoming something nicer than the embodiment of disease and dishonorable death. Even if her plan to assimilate all the dwarves somehow worked out, she'd still be the queen of disease/undeath primarily, and queen of the pantheon second.

Why doesn't she put in a debate hall where you're always right, a dungeon where the monsters are just tough enough to challenge you, and a tavern of one night stands? The function of planes is to break incoming souls down to better match the nature of the plane they're on, and often the nature of the god whose domain they fall under. LG heaven had those things to help people get their mortal urges out of their system, in a plane populated and designed entirely by LG beings. I don't see how Hel's Happy Fun Land aspects incoming souls towards either general NE malaise nor her specific disease tainted outlook. For that matter, aside from Slaneesh-like gods of pleasure to excess (where you don't want to see what the petitioners graduate to), I don't see how having a nice introductory layer assists in either attracting compatible souls, or helping process them into the soul-stuff you ultimately want. At most you design to appeal to characters like pre-growth Belkar, where being free to stab everything you're strong enough to stab is enticement enough.

[brian 333]

It's a trope in a lot of stories that hugely powerful mythical beings are tightly bound to their natures, and the stickverse outer planes exist to strip away all your human quirks until you're ultimately soul-stuff that is in perfect alignment with the plane. As a hugely powerful outsider composed of soul stuff, I don't know that Hel is even capable of becoming something nicer than the embodiment of disease and dishonorable death. Even if her plan to assimilate all the dwarves somehow worked out, she'd still be the queen of disease/undeath primarily, and queen of the pantheon second.

Why doesn't she put in a debate hall where you're always right, a dungeon where the monsters are just tough enough to challenge you, and a tavern of one night stands? The function of planes is to break incoming souls down to better match the nature of the plane they're on, and often the nature of the god whose domain they fall under. LG heaven had those things to help people get their mortal urges out of their system, in a plane populated and designed entirely by LG beings. I don't see how Hel's Happy Fun Land aspects incoming souls towards either general NE malaise nor her specific disease tainted outlook. For that matter, aside from Slaneesh-like gods of pleasure to excess (where you don't want to see what the petitioners graduate to), I don't see how having a nice introductory layer assists in either attracting compatible souls, or helping process them into the soul-stuff you ultimately want. At most you design to appeal to characters like pre-growth Belkar, where being free to stab everything you're strong enough to stab is enticement enough.

Those are other planes. Hel exists to be served, and has absolutely zero consideration for whatever you want, desire, or need, except in how those things can be manipulated to get more souls to serve her.

You want Happy Funland for an afterlife? Your chances are better if you worship Banjo.

If you are asking why Hel cannot change into a more reasonable, more accomodating deity, well, all I can say is, try making a tobacco smoker of twenty years quit. Sure, she can if she wants too. The question is, does she want to?

[Anymage]

If you are asking why Hel cannot change into a more reasonable, more accomodating deity, well, all I can say is, try making a tobacco smoker of twenty years quit. Sure, she can if she wants too. The question is, does she want to?

One of my big arguments is that Hel cannot change that deeply. Living humans get to learn, grow, and change. Outsiders, even really big ones like gods, are much more bound to their natures.

[KorvinStarmast]

Basically, because Hel is the divine equivalent of an emo teen. Let me guess: she always plays a tiefling in D&D?

[DGM]

Let's go whole hog... Can you imagine a campaign world where dying dishonorably was considered a better fate than dying with honor?

Ask Hilgya. She seems to think she's already living in one.

[martianmister]

She's too lazy.

[Luna_Mayflower]

She's too lazy.

She can be as lazy as she wants! I'll wait on her hand and foot if she loves me!

[martianmister]

She can be as lazy as she wants! I'll wait on her hand and foot if she loves me!

Considering you're confirmed to have a S&M fetish, it's not a surprise.

[Particle_Man]

Considering her portfolio, I would watch out for stds.:smalleek:

[TheTinyMan]

She can be as lazy as she wants! I'll wait on her hand and foot if she loves me!

She seems like she'd enjoy a good service sub...but I'm not sure that she makes the best dominant, judging by her interactions with the frost giant demigod. :smallbiggrin:

[Luna_Mayflower]

Considering you're confirmed to have a S&M fetish, it's not a surprise.

Only for goddesses! Don't slander my prophetic name by suggesting I'd serve anyone else.


Considering her portfolio, I would watch out for stds.:smalleek:

Yeah, but we all make sacrifices for those we love, don't we?


She seems like she'd enjoy a good service sub...but I'm not sure that she makes the best dominant, judging by her interactions with the frost giant demigod. :smallbiggrin:

Nuh, don't insult Hely! That frosty man was a crap servant! He couldn't even slow the OOTS down! Not only would I use my future sight to predict where those pesky PCs would be, but I'd summon my small yet potent following on this forum to slay that greenhilted menace!

[TheTinyMan]

Yeah, but we all make sacrifices for those we love, don't we?
Hey, all you've gotta do is use the appropriate protection and/or Cure Disease spell after! Or is your love for her so great that you'd bear all the diseases that she'd deliver?


Nuh, don't insult Hely! That frosty man was a crap servant! He couldn't even slow the OOTS down! Not only would I use my future sight to predict where those pesky PCs would be, but I'd summon my small yet potent following on this forum to slay that greenhilted menace!
Yes, but THEN your following has a chance to be swayed by the cause of Good, Righteousness, and that pretty green sword!

[Luna_Mayflower]

Hey, all you've gotta do is use the appropriate protection and/or Cure Disease spell after! Or is your love for her so great that you'd bear all the diseases that she'd deliver?


Yes, but THEN your following has a chance to be swayed by the cause of Good, Righteousness, and that pretty green sword!

If she wills it, I will bear whatever disease she wishes. Oh, and my followers are already good, then just know that I'm their prophet and I'm worthy of their loyalty. Obviously.

[brian 333]

If she wills it, I will bear whatever disease she wishes. Oh, and my followers are already good, then just know that I'm their prophet and I'm worthy of their loyalty. Obviously.

You expect loyalty from people devoted to a goddess of betrayal? Come, child, and drink the Kool Aid we've prepared in this galvanized wash tub to prove your devotion.

[Psyren]

Is Hel morally justified in making her afterlife such a terrible place to afterlive? :smalltongue:

You might as well ask why the IFCC tortures souls too. Whether it's by Cosmic Mandate that someone's afterlife has to be crappy, whether the torture itself does provide tangible metaphysical benefits, or just for the evulz, ultimately the reason why doesn't matter - your only job as a mortal dwarf is to avoid it if you can.

[Luna_Mayflower]

You expect loyalty from people devoted to a goddess of betrayal? Come, child, and drink the Kool Aid we've prepared in this galvanized wash tub to prove your devotion.

My dear, I'm a leader, not a follower. They are devoted to me. :smallamused:


Is Hel morally justified in making her afterlife such a terrible place to afterlive? :smalltongue:

You might as well ask why the IFCC tortures souls too. Whether it's by Cosmic Mandate that someone's afterlife has to be crappy, whether the torture itself does provide tangible metaphysical benefits, or just for the evulz, ultimately the reason why doesn't matter - your only job as a mortal dwarf is to avoid it if you can.

Stop trying to get this thread shut down! You're ruining my Hel-based fantasies!

[brian 333]

My dear, I'm a leader, not a follower. They are devoted to me. :smallamused:



Stop trying to get this thread shut down! You're ruining my Hel-based fantasies!

Hel follows you? Good luck with that. Also, can I be the beneficiary of your life insurance policy?

[Luna_Mayflower]

Hel follows you? Good luck with that. Also, can I be the beneficiary of your life insurance policy?

Wait, what?! No way! I follow Hel and my fan club/loyal minions follow me! It's a pyramid!

[martianmister]

Only for goddesses! Don't slander my prophetic name by suggesting I'd serve anyone else.

What about Malack? :smallconfused:

[Luna_Mayflower]

What about Malack? :smallconfused:

Oh yeah... Jake is lovely too.

[woweedd]

Same reason the other Evil gods don't. Namely:
https://youtu.be/za1LdYvlnLw?t=58

[martianmister]

Same reason the other Evil gods don't. Namely:
https://youtu.be/za1LdYvlnLw?t=58

Because they all have Napoleon complex? Seems right.

[Tetsujin-28]

As with most questions about cosmology and the afterlife in OOTS, the answer is: D&D-based cosmologies aren't exactly the most well thought out.

[Rrmcklin]

I'd say the idea that a god would have to alter their realm to accommodate the mortals would be antonym to all of them, whether good or bad.

The gods set the rules, and good, evil, or neutral, the mortals play by them. The idea that Hel would have to change to suit the mortals is changing the power dynamic in a way that would never occur to her (or probably any of the gods, save maybe the ones who were formerly mortal themselves).