Hel's Comeuppance

[Freeholder]

The order will be successful in saving the council of dwarves, but the dwarven elders will vote to destroy the world in order to protect the stability of the world and protect the souls of all the other races. Just before the last vote is cast, a portal to the snarls world opens in Hel's plane. The goddess is destroyed, but the snarl stops for the time being. The book would end with Redcloak and Xykon before Kraagors gate having completed the ritual.

Given that we have already seen evidence that the order, and team evil, do not understand the full implications of the snarl and the world within the rifts, this might not mean the immediate end of the world. This would catch us up with what team evil has been doing, see some justice dealt to Hel and introduce the snarl as an immediate threat for the last book.

I know this is not too likely, but thought I'd throw it out there.

[Anymage]

For starters, killing Hel wouldn't stop a pan-pantheon agreement. We've been seeing the northern drama, but there are two whole other pantheons that have already cast their votes. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if The Dark One did get control over the snarl, he'd be quite happy if one of the other pantheons were helmed by an evil god.

For another, Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't have much to do if the big threat tied to them were wrapped up. (Well, Red might. Xy would lose his driving focus, and wind up just doing stuff for evulz. That's a serious villain downgrade.) The story demands a proper face off.

[Peelee]

For starters, killing Hel wouldn't stop a pan-pantheon agreement. We've been seeing the northern drama, but there are two whole other pantheons that have already cast their votes.

As you said the two other pantheons already voted, and they tied. Northern pantheon is the tiebreaker, but they also tied. The demigods voted to tiebreak and THEY tied, making it down to Dvalin. But, at any stage, of the tie is broken the lower states don't matter. If Hel dies before Dvalin votes, they the Northern pantheon isn't tied anymore, and can cast their collective vote.

Not that I really think it's going to go that way, but the theory certainly has legs to stand on.

[woweedd]

Um...I'm pretty sure that if The Snarl gets free, EVERYONE DIES.

[KorvinStarmast]

Um...I'm pretty sure that if The Snarl gets free, EVERYONE DIES.
New theory: the Snarl is a really big pile of rocks (https://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml).

[The MunchKING]

Also if Redcloak completes the Ritual AND the Dark One is pulling a Alderaan here and killing someone cosmic to show he's got the power, why Hel?

Why not one of the Good Gods, or the Pantheon leader if he really wants to make a Statement? And why would he start with the Northern realm rather than the Southern Pantheon whose Paladins have been murdering all his Gobbos?

[woweedd]

Also if Redcloak completes the Ritual AND the Dark One is pulling a Alderaan here and killing someone cosmic to show he's got the power, why Hel?

Why not one of the Good Gods, or the Pantheon leader if he really wants to make a Statement? And why would he start with the Northern realm rather than the Southern Pantheon whose Paladins have been murdering all his Gobbos?
Yeah. I mean, if I were The Dark One, assuming I decided to kill anyone at the start, rather then simply use it as a threat, i'd probably take out Dragon. Leader of the Southern Pantheon and all.

[Mike Havran]

Just before the last vote is cast, a portal to the snarls world opens in Hel's plane.
Who would open it?

[Rrmcklin]

I don't really understand thinking Hel will get any special comeuppance anyway. Her actions basically only amount to trying to orchestrate something basically half the gods think should happen anyway for personal gain.

Yeah, she's evil, but unless you think all of the evil gods and/or any god that voted for the world to be destroyed I'm pretty sure you're out of luck.

Her comeuppance, such as it is, will be that her plans will fail, and her lot in life will not improve. There's not much basis for anything else.

[jwhouk]

Who would open it?

Someone in the Snarl's World.

Say, some guy who calls himself The Giant.

[Bad Wolf]

Even if Hel's plan fails, she'll probably be fine. Considering that she now has a cleric of unknown level safely away from all the action at the Godsmoot, she'd be better off than she was before Durkon got vamped.

[Fyraltari]

Someone in the Snarl's World.

Say, some guy who calls himself The Giant.
My guess is no.


So no, it STILL isn't Earth in the Rift. It will never be Earth in the Rift. Earth will never show up.

[woweedd]

My guess is no.



It's Htrae, a version of Earth where everything is spelled backwards. It is otherwise identical.

[Hekko]

The order will be successful in saving the council of dwarves, but the dwarven elders will vote to destroy the world in order to protect the stability of the world and protect the souls of all the other races.

My theory is that if they do that, the deaths of the dwarves will be a sacrifice, making it honourable.

[Fyraltari]

It's Htrae, a version of Earth where everything is spelled backwards. It is otherwise identical.

On si sseug ym.

[Peelee]

It's Htrae, a version of Earth where everything is spelled backwards. It is otherwise identical.

Left is right, up is up, black is black, dogs chase cats in the other direction.... madness, I tells ya!

[Evergone]

My theory is that if they do that, the deaths of the dwarves will be a sacrifice, making it honourable.
That's what I figured as well. Choosing a dishonourable death (and thus Hel) for the greater good is honourable.
It would be a neat twist if the world gets destroyed, without ending the story. I don't see how that would work, but it'd be a neat twist. Would probably resolve Belkar's prophecy too, without him explicitly dying.

[Fyraltari]

My theory is that if they do that, the deaths of the dwarves will be a sacrifice, making it honourable.
The Elders' deaths would be honorable, sure but I don't think the other dwarves would be spared Hel.

[jwhouk]

And I can see it now:

:roy: "But if you do that, there won't be an afterlife for any of us to go to!"

[Rrmcklin]

My theory is that if they do that, the deaths of the dwarves will be a sacrifice, making it honourable.

You might be able to pull that off for the council members actually doing the voting, but I don't see how that would make sense for your average dwarf who would have no idea this is even going on. You can't make a sacrifice if you're not aware of the situation.

And even then, I don't think like, what 50-100 (or more) people going "Hey, kill all of these millions without them knowing or their consent" would be particularly "honorable" either.

[Hekko]

And I can see it now:

:roy: "But if you do that, there won't be an afterlife for any of us to go to!"

Um, no. If the Snarl gets out, there won't be an afterlife. If the gods undo the world before the Snarl gets out, the souls will proceed to their respective afterlives - which is why Hel wants this to happen.


You might be able to pull that off for the council members actually doing the voting, but I don't see how that would make sense for your average dwarf who would have no idea this is even going on. You can't make a sacrifice if you're not aware of the situation.

Thor would have to argue that the council members formally speak for all dwarves from their clans. It's kind of weak (but still not as weak as arguing a death following a fight with a tree is honourable, in my opinion... although we didn't see the outcome of the argument).


And even then, I don't think like, what 50-100 (or more) people going "Hey, kill all of these millions without them knowing or their consent" would be particularly "honorable" either.

The people in OOTS world have an afterlife. They know this. Snarl threatens the eternal existence of their souls. Undoing the world cuts short their (temporary) lives, but preserves their eternal afterlives.

Anyway, I don't think this is the way the story will go, there are way too many questions that would remain unanswered that way. But it would serve Hel right to be cheated out of these souls like that.

[woweedd]

Um, no. If the Snarl gets out, there won't be an afterlife. If the gods undo the world before the Snarl gets out, the souls will proceed to their respective afterlives - which is why Hel wants this to happen.



Thor would have to argue that the council members formally speak for all dwarves from their clans. It's kind of weak (but still not as weak as arguing a death following a fight with a tree is honourable, in my opinion... although we didn't see the outcome of the argument).



The people in OOTS world have an afterlife. They know this. Snarl threatens the eternal existence of their souls. Undoing the world cuts short their (temporary) lives, but preserves their eternal afterlives.

Anyway, I don't think this is the way the story will go, there are way too many questions that would remain unanswered that way. But it would serve Hel right to be cheated out of these souls like that.
To be fair, tree roots are a legit danger for a species who live underground.

[SlashDash]

One of the silliest ideas I've seen here. Considering Redcloak's betrayl, I don't see anyway they can complete the ritual without a smackdown in team evil.

And no way is Redcloak the winner without Xykon being a major antagonist for Roy

[Synesthesy]

Also if Redcloak completes the Ritual AND the Dark One is pulling a Alderaan here and killing someone cosmic to show he's got the power, why Hel?

Why not one of the Good Gods, or the Pantheon leader if he really wants to make a Statement? And why would he start with the Northern realm rather than the Southern Pantheon whose Paladins have been murdering all his Gobbos?

Because the Dark One doesn't want to kill a leader: he doesn't want open war between gods, he wants to speak to them.
Hel and her bet is a problem for Dark One goals (freedom and equality for all races), and she is not that liked to make northen gods swear revenge upon her. I think Hel would be perfect.

Ok, I thought this while I was writing it, I don't expect it to happen :smallwink:

[King of Nowhere]

it would be a massively disappointing deus ex machina if it happened. I mean, rockssnarl falls, the main villain of the arc dies?

[Kish]

Ten gold says that the Dark One will remain a fundamentally negative figure. Thirty gold says the Dark One will not intervene to save the world from Hel.

[Rrmcklin]

Thor would have to argue that the council members formally speak for all dwarves from their clans. It's kind of weak (but still not as weak as arguing a death following a fight with a tree is honourable, in my opinion... although we didn't see the outcome of the argument).

Except the Council specifically doesn't formally speak for all dwarves of their clans. We were explicitly told this; the Council is merely a traditional thing now, and not the dwarves formal legislative body. It's more than just a "kind of weak" argument, it has been explicitly said to be untrue in the story.


The people in OOTS world have an afterlife. They know this. Snarl threatens the eternal existence of their souls. Undoing the world cuts short their (temporary) lives, but preserves their eternal afterlives. Anyway, I don't think this is the way the story will go, there are way too many questions that would remain unanswered that way. But it would serve Hel right to be cheated out of these souls like that.

People keep saying "they have an afterlife, so it doesn't matter" and we've been repeatedly told and shown that isn't true. People in this world like being alive and seem very content to stay alive as long as possible. Your argument of "Everyone has to die sometime anyway" means about as much in their world as it does ours. Whatever you think it should mean something different to them, the fact remains it doesn't.

[Kish]

People keep saying "they have an afterlife, so it doesn't matter" and we've been repeatedly told and shown that isn't true. People in this world like being alive and seem very content to stay alive as long as possible. Your argument of "Everyone has to die sometime anyway" means about as much in their world as it does ours. Whatever you think it should mean something different to them, the fact remains it doesn't.
Thank you. It's so irritating the way so many people here blur "resurrection is possible, though far out of reach for over 99% of the world's population" into "death is trivial and meaningless."

[Rrmcklin]

I also have to point out that the gods seem very intent to keep more mortals from finding out about the Snarl and the danger it poises. It's unlikely Davlin even would explain the full consequences and would probably just say something like "It is currently being debated for reasons I can't specify whether to destroy this world or not, yay or nay?"

And with that limited information, I can't think of any reason the Council would vote "yay" as a whole.


Because the Dark One doesn't want to kill a leader: he doesn't want open war between gods, he wants to speak to them.
Hel and her bet is a problem for Dark One goals (freedom and equality for all races), and she is not that liked to make northen gods swear revenge upon her. I think Hel would be perfect.

The Dark One doesn't want to "talk" to the gods, he intends to threaten them into doing what he wants, with their lives and all of creation on the line.

And he doesn't want "freedom and equality for all races" he wants a better positions for Goblinoids, specifically. It has never been implied that the Dark One cares at all about other races usually assigned evil like the orcs or whatever.

[Synesthesy]

The Dark One doesn't want to "talk" to the gods, he intends to threaten them into doing what he wants, with their lives and all of creation on the line.

And he doesn't want "freedom and equality for all races" he wants a better positions for Goblinoids, specifically. It has never been implied that the Dark One cares at all about other races usually assigned evil like the orcs or whatever.

I apologize for my limited knowledge of english, I wanted to say "threaten" just like you say.

But I don't know, it's true that Redcloak speaks almost only about goblinoids, but we don't know the real political view of the Dark One.... he can be a goblinoid suprematist or a believer that every creature was born free and have rights... or anything between.