Fun Find: GREATER DRAGONMARK

[8wGremlin]

GREATER DRAGONMARK has some interesting wording on the feat, what would you rule?


You learn a set of spells, each of which youcan cast once without expending a spell slotor using a material component. The list ofspells, the spellcasting ability for them, andthe type of rest you must complete to regainthe use of these spells are shown on theGreater Dragonmark Benefits table.




Now this states that you can cast them once which out expending a spell slot, which implies that if you have spell slots you can cast them using those slots.

But the next line is odd, you must complete a rest to get back the use of the spell, so if you already know them, then does this interfere with normal casting.

Take 1:
I have spell slots of the correct level I can use them to cast the spell.

Take 2:
I know the spell, but the feat now makes me rest before I can cast it again!


If this is Take 1, then multi class characters who have spell slots but no spells of that level could now cast the spells using those slots.

Thoughts?

[JackPhoenix]

No, it does not imply that you can cast dragonmark spells using spell slots. It states the opposite: that you don't need to use, and don't need to have a spell slot to use the ability. Neither 1 nor 2.

[leogobsin]

Yeah how I would interpret it is working the same way Magic Initiate does: you can cast it once without using a slot and using the casting stat specified by the feat, and then if you have it known/prepared from a class you have levels in you can cast it using slots and using that classes casting stat.

[Nettlekid]

The feat states that you learn the spells. That means that if you can cast spells then these are spells you can cast just like any other, because you can cast any spell you know out of spell slots you have.

Since it says you must take a rest to regain the use of these spells, it's referring to the free casting you get. But even before that you still know the spells and can cast them like any spell you know.

This language is different from racially granted spells like the Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke which never says that you know the spell, just that you can cast it using the racial trait.

[JackPhoenix]

The feat states that you learn the spells. That means that if you can cast spells then these are spells you can cast just like any other, because you can cast any spell you know out of spell slots you have.

Since it says you must take a rest to regain the use of these spells, it's referring to the free casting you get. But even before that you still know the spells and can cast them like any spell you know.

This language is different from racially granted spells like the Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke which never says that you know the spell, just that you can cast it using the racial trait.

Problem with that: only class that learns its spells is a wizard, and wizard has to prepare them. Nobody else needs to "learn" spells, they either know all of them and prepare them as they want, or have a limited number of spells known. And unlike Magic Initiate, GD doesn't refer to specific class spell lists, so the clause used to cast MI spells from spell slots if you have a level in the same class doesn't apply there.

[leogobsin]

Problem with that: only class that learns its spells is a wizard, and wizard has to prepare them. Nobody else needs to "learn" spells, they either know all of them and prepare them as they want, or have a limited number of spells known. And unlike Magic Initiate, GD doesn't refer to specific class spell lists, so the clause used to cast MI spells from spell slots if you have a level in the same class doesn't apply there.

Weeeell, actually every class that doesn't prepare from its full class list except for Wizard uses language about "learning" spells. From the Bard "Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher":


The Spells Known column of the Bard table shows when you learn more bard spells of your choice.

(the same language appear in the class descriptions for Eldritch Knight, Ranger, Arcane Trickster, Sorcerer, and Warlock). Compare to the Wizard section "Learning Spells of 1st Level and Higher":


Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook.

Interestingly, the Wizard description never actually uses the phrase "Spells Known" the way other casters do (your spellbook is referred to as "the repository of the wizard Spells you know", but otherwise a Wizard doesn't "know" spells, they just have spells in their spellbook). The rules actually seem a little iffy on whether or not Wizards "learn" spells other than cantrips, per se.

Long story short, Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, Sorcerers, and Warlocks (and maybe Wizards) definitely do learn spells; it seems vague as to whether you can cast spells "learned" through a dragonmark since they aren't through a specific class list though.

[Arceus]

Yes, you learn the spells, but most classes cannot cast them with spell slots.

Most spell-casting classes can only cast spells they know from that spells- for example, a Sorcerer specifies that they can use their spell slots to cast Sorcerer spells known, and as the spells known via Greater Dragonmark would be sorcerer spells for that character, they do not have the ability to cast the Dragonmark spells with spell slots. It's excatly the same as Magic Initiate in that regards.

The exceptions are Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights, as they do not have the same limitations on using their spellslots.

[8wGremlin]

What of Multiclassed character say Cleric/Arcane trickster that combined has the slots (but no known spells)

[Wintorn]

The feat states that you learn the spells. That means that if you can cast spells then these are spells you can cast just like any other, because you can cast any spell you know out of spell slots you have.

Since it says you must take a rest to regain the use of these spells, it's referring to the free casting you get. But even before that you still know the spells and can cast them like any spell you know.

This language is different from racially granted spells like the Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke which never says that you know the spell, just that you can cast it using the racial trait.

You powergamers are thirsty.

[Tetrasodium]

GREATER DRAGONMARK has some interesting wording on the feat, what would you rule?






Now this states that you can cast them once which out expending a spell slot, which implies that if you have spell slots you can cast them using those slots.

But the next line is odd, you must complete a rest to get back the use of the spell, so if you already know them, then does this interfere with normal casting.

Take 1:
I have spell slots of the correct level I can use them to cast the spell.

Take 2:
I know the spell, but the feat now makes me rest before I can cast it again!


If this is Take 1, then multi class characters who have spell slots but no spells of that level could now cast the spells using those slots.

Thoughts?

mmmm..... no. I would probably allow a wizard to get a scroll of that spell cheaply from their house in the form of someone letting them scribe it from their spellbook if they went looking for someone in the house willing to let them. The thing about dragonmarks is that the spells they grant you is only a tiny fraction of their true power. Right now there are only a few examples of dragonmark focus devices in wgte, but the eberron community has made a bunch of dragonmark focus items if you look around. even with the limited examples, there are clearly some very nice ones.

You do not know the spell, you have something inside you that lets you simply do something that most people can not do. This extends to the use of dragonmark focus items for your mark and actual spells that are somehow linked to your mark. For exmple cure wounds, prayer of healing, etc are all d8/slot level+modifier, it's entirely possible that someone with the mark of healing could cast a version that was 2d4/slot level+modifier

[Kadesh]

Surely it would have said 'you can cast these spells out of your normal spell slots', or been much clearer if that was the intention?

[qube]

You powergamers are thirsty.
seems like it.

Sheesh, people. It's a playtest (an official one, sure, but still a playtest) - not an actual finished product. As such, exact wording will still need a lot of work. And, as such


GREATER DRAGONMARK has some interesting wording on the feat, what would you rule?

Whatever seems most balanced, regardless of what the letter of the description might or might not say if you try to look at it from a crooked perspective.

[8wGremlin]

seems like it.

Sheesh, people. It's a playtest (an official one, sure, but still a playtest) - not an actual finished product. As such, exact wording will still need a lot of work. And, as such

GREATER DRAGONMARK has some interesting wording on the feat, what would you rule?

Whatever seems most balanced, regardless of what the letter of the description might or might not say if you try to look at it from a crooked perspective.

You are right, but without seeing how far the rabbit hole goes, then we don't know how many changes are needed to shore it all up.

But back to the case in point, it seems that with the current wording, there is ambiguity and possible integration issues.
lets clean up the RAW wording so that RAW=RAI, and make for a better game.