Initative in Play-By-Post / with Side Init rule (DMG.270)

[odigity]

I'm about to run my first PbP game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565461-Campaign-of-Chaos-5e-(noob-DM)).

I decided to use the optional Side Initiative rule (DMG.270) because waiting for each player to individual roll can single-handedly cost 1-2 days. However, the consequence of that is characters with initiative bonuses are prevented from benefiting from them. As a compromise, I decided I'd also calculate group initiative bonuses for each side, which seemed fair and mechanically sound.

However, one potential player submitted a Barbarian and pointed out that their 7th level ability gives them advantage on init, which wouldn't translate. In that case, I've decided to translate their advantage into a flat +5 bonus, which would then get aggregated during the group init calculation.

Does that seem fair? Does anyone see any problems with that? Can anyone spot any other init-related problems stemming from this optional rule, and do you have any suggestions on how to handle those as well?

And most importantly, does anyone have actual experience with this scenario (PbP + Side Init rule) they'd like to share?

[Arzanyos]

So, the main draw of side initiative is flexibility. Anybody on the side can go in any order, and you don't have to do all that tracking of who's going when. However, in PbP, you're already online, so might as well track all that. As well, waiting on people will always be kinda unwieldy. Waiting in turns won't make it much more so.

My suggestion: Just roll initiative for each person, as the DM. You can apply all the bonuses, and it can all be done at the start of combat.

[odigity]

So, the main draw of side initiative is flexibility. Anybody on the side can go in any order, and you don't have to do all that tracking of who's going when. However, in PbP, you're already online, so might as well track all that. As well, waiting on people will always be kinda unwieldy. Waiting in turns won't make it much more so.

My suggestion: Just roll initiative for each person, as the DM. You can apply all the bonuses, and it can all be done at the start of combat.

That's a good point. That eliminates the need to fiddle with rule changes.

The downside is, if individual initiative is used, then players must now post in initiative order. Meaning, if players A through E have the following results:


B 22
A 19
C 16
E 11
D 4


Then no one can post until B posts. The no one can post until A posts, etc... that could take days, since each step could result in up to 24hrs of waiting (before I step in as DM and run their char for them), for a total of 5 days for a round, worst case scenario.

Whereas if everyone is free to go in any order, we should be able to complete a round in 24-36hrs.

[tigerusthegreat]

I have always done pseudo side based, rolling initiative and grouping players together so a group can go in any order. So if the order would be:

Player 1
Player 2
Enemy 1
Enemy 2
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Enemy 3

Then players 1 or 2 could go in any order, as could players 3,4, or 5 but 1 and 2 couldnt go until after enemy 3


As a note, advantage roughly translates to a +3.325 bonus on average

[odigity]

I have always done pseudo side based, rolling initiative and grouping players together so a group can go in any order. So if the order would be:

Player 1
Player 2
Enemy 1
Enemy 2
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Enemy 3

Then players 1 or 2 could go in any order, as could players 3,4, or 5 but 1 and 2 couldnt go until after enemy 3

I agree that's an optimization, but it still requires a lot of coordination and bottlenecking.


As a note, advantage roughly translates to a +3.325 bonus on average

I've always heard it's approximately slightly less than 5. I think there's a chart somewhere...

[Rogerdodger557]

I've always heard it's approximately slightly less than 5. I think there's a chart somewhere...

The actual math might not be there, but the ruling for passive ability checks is that advantage/disadvantage grants a flat +/- 5 to the modifier.

[Zergrinch]

I think the simplest is to roll initiative once for each side, and add the average initiative bonus per side.

The fairest option would probably to roll initiative normally for everyone, and average the rolls.

[Pelle]

This solution is quite easy to use:

0. All PCs roll initiative. DC is 10+X, where X is the bonus the monsters/enemies have to initiative.
1. All PCs who beat the DC take a turn
2. All monsters/enemies take a turn.
3. All PCs take a turn.
4. Etc...

So if you have a high bonus to initiative, you have a higher chance of going before the monsters...

[Stan]

At the very least, make all the initiative rolls.

But I've tried group initiative in pbp and prefer it. The bottleneck issue you mentioned is very real. Some people are online only only in the evening or only in the morning. If the person before them doesn't happen to take their turn right before the next person's online window, you might have to wait nearly a day for them to post. If they are busy that day, you might wait two days for one post. Switching to to group initiative can make a typical round go from ~1 day/person to ~2 days total.

Players can game the system slightly by arranging their turns into what is more useful than the rolls of individual initiative would easily allow, firing off the aoe spell before the melee character charges, and things like that. I'm ok with that as it encourages thinking and teamwork.

When I've used group initiative, I was very generous and used the highest initiative modifier among the characters for the group. That way, if someone has a feature that helps initiative, not only is it not squashed, it helps everyone. In practice, this makes the mod only ~+1 or +2 higher most of the time. For the opposing party, I used the most common modifier. Yea, this is leniant, but I've got other ways to be brutal. Plus, I don't find "surprise, you're dead before you can do anything!" to be very interesting.

[odigity]

This solution is quite easy to use:

0. All PCs roll initiative. DC is 10+X, where X is the bonus the monsters/enemies have to initiative.
1. All PCs who beat the DC take a turn
2. All monsters/enemies take a turn.
3. All PCs take a turn.
4. Etc...

So if you have a high bonus to initiative, you have a higher chance of going before the monsters...

That's a clever hack, but still not as simple as side initiative to explain or apply.


At the very least, make all the initiative rolls.

Fore sure.


But I've tried group initiative in pbp and prefer it. The bottleneck issue you mentioned is very real. Some people are online only only in the evening or only in the morning. If the person before them doesn't happen to take their turn right before the next person's online window, you might have to wait nearly a day for them to post. If they are busy that day, you might wait two days for one post. Switching to to group initiative can make a typical round go from ~1 day/person to ~2 days total.

Glad to see someone report experiences that confirm my theoretical suspicions.


Players can game the system slightly by arranging their turns into what is more useful than the rolls of individual initiative would easily allow, firing off the aoe spell before the melee character charges, and things like that. I'm ok with that as it encourages thinking and teamwork.

I agree. I'd be thrilled to see a group working together that hard to maximize their effectiveness within the constraints given.


When I've used group initiative, I was very generous and used the highest initiative modifier among the characters for the group. That way, if someone has a feature that helps initiative, not only is it not squashed, it helps everyone. In practice, this makes the mod only ~+1 or +2 higher most of the time. For the opposing party, I used the most common modifier. Yea, this is leniant, but I've got other ways to be brutal. Plus, I don't find "surprise, you're dead before you can do anything!" to be very interesting.

I think I'll probably go with my average init idea. That way high init players are contributing, but low init players still inflict some consequence. It seems fair. (With advantage converted to +4 or +5.)

[Pelle]

That's a clever hack, but still not as simple as side initiative to explain or apply.


What do you mean? This is Side Initiative, meaning all on one side go, then all on the other side go, etc. It's just also a check at the start of combat to see of anyone get a "bonus turn". It's really easy to explain, just announce at the start of combat "Roll Initiative! The DC is 1X, if you beat it you get to act before all the monsters!"

[Stan]

What do you mean? This is Side Initiative, meaning all on one side go, then all on the other side go, etc. It's just also a check at the start of combat to see of anyone get a "bonus turn". It's really easy to explain, just announce at the start of combat "Roll Initiative! The DC is 1X, if you beat it you get to act before all the monsters!"

Because, after the first turn, those players going after the opponents and those going before the opponents for the next turn are going at the same time.

Suppose 5 players, 3 of them roll initiative better than the average initiative of the monsters.
1. Those three have a group turn.
2. Monsters go.
3. players go.

repeat 2 and 3.

It's only a slight mod, though I'd still make all the initiative rolls. It's kinda like rolling to get a surprise round but there's no surprise effects.

[Pelle]

Suppose 5 players, 3 of them roll initiative better than the average initiative of the monsters.
1. Those three have a group turn.
2. Monsters go.
3. players go.

repeat 2 and 3.


Yes, that was exactly what i suggested. Are we talking past each other?

I thought the point of side initiative was that the players don't need to take their actions in the same order every turn. Don't have my Dmg available so can't check the description...

[Stan]

Yes, that was exactly what i suggested. Are we talking past each other?


No, I was trying to explain your method to odigity.

[username1]

In a pbp game I would even use a different alternative rule. Page 270 dms guide: speed factor. Only I would change it a bit. Instead of using weapons for your int bonus you use your normal int bonus. This keeps it simple. This way every can post at any time. Then you role everyone's int and the describe how their actions play out.