Sword bard vs lore bard

[Boared Bard]

Hi All

some thoughts on a old post. I am a human bard 2/fighter 2. I had been encouraged by my dm to go lore bard but due to the party make up (paladin/fighter/cleric/wix/sorcerer) I am ending up in in melee frequently. I like the depth of flavour with lore and have some good ideas of how to progress, but my character idea is based on zorro/fencer, so I am thinking sword bard, where i feel i will have more of an impact and more fun!

my dm is keen for me to give lore bard a go, and I would if the party had more fighter types for me to stand behind, but as we dont i am keen to give sword a go, especially as i could go fighter/battlemaster later and get that sword master feel.

thoughts?

[Koury]

Your character, not DMs right? Sword it up fam.

[Boared Bard]

Lol thanks - that should say fighter 1/bard 2

[Snivlem]

I think you should play what you want, not what your DM want.

But if you care for optimazing i Actually think the 2 level fighter dip goes better with lore than swords

[Boared Bard]

How does a lvl 2 fighter dip go better?

[Snivlem]

A fighter dip goes better with lore because swords is already giving you parts of what you are getting from the fighter dip (the profencies)

If you want to go swords i see little value in the fighter dip except action surge at level 2

[Boared Bard]

What about shields/bm manouvres with sword?

[CTurbo]

If you want to go Swords, by all means go Swords. The DM should have no say in your character unless you are new and asked for help.

Swords gets you an extra Fighting Style too

[Sariel Vailo]

Also the ability to cast spells sans instrument.

[RSP]

First, Lore is fantastic, and cutting Words is probably my favorite Ability in the game.

Second, with a fighter, Paladin and Cleric, why are you being forced to the front line?

Third, I agree with others, it’s your character, you play what is the most fun for you. If you want to emphasis the sword-master feel, go Blade, and you can add Battlemaster later if you so desire. Though depending how you multiclass, Lore and Battlemaster could do this as well, as more of a smart-assed swords man who makes great quips throughout the fight.

It’s really not a question we can answer: what would be more fun for you?

[Nifft]

Yeah agree with everyone here: it's your character, do what you want.

Personally I prefer Lore Bard but that's irrelevant if you want to Sword.

[RSP]

One more thing to add: keep in mind, you’re not going to be a better fighter than the Fighter; and the Paladin will last all day as a tank, while out damaging a Swordbard.

I only mention this because having a character you want to be Zorro, might turn out to be underwhelming when compared to the other front-liners; it’s Zorro compared to Ser Jaime or Launcelot.

Again, just pointing this out because a Bard, first and foremost, is a caster, and though they can get some nice Gish abilities, their spell list is much more support/control than frontliner. You’ll be able to do a cool trick every now and again, but if your expectation is that you’re going to match either the fighter or Pally in melee, I think you’ll be let down.

[sophontteks]

The problem with swords here is that you already have the bonus profeciencies from the fighter and you won't get an extra attack until level 8. If its possible, you may want to ditch the fighter levels entrely.

[Boared Bard]

Well the life cleric sticks at the back, the fighter is an archer and the paladin is the tank. When we get overwhelmed it's me, the wiz and sorcerer. So I step forward.

The sorcerer and me have been reduced to zero twice and just made our death saves.

Approaching lvl 3 bard, I like a lot of the lore college. I don't want to wait till 10th for magical secrets (7th I know) but how do u build a melee lore bard?

At 4th I was thinking of getting magic initiate (wiz) and fire bolt, shocking grasp and shield as a lore bard - but perhaps I could go martial adept and lick up some manoeuvres.

We are not using scag or any other supplements.

[Boared Bard]

How would u build your melee lore bard with fighter 1 /bard 2?

[Snowbluff]

I would get a blade cantrip from SCAG to add a little damage, either from being a high elf, half elf with high elf heritage, or as a variant human with magic initiate.

[CTurbo]

What race are you and what are your stats? What Fighting Style did you take with Fighter 1?

Martial Adept is NOT a good feat IMO, and while Magic Initiate IS a good feat, Shield is a terrible spell choice for it since you can only use it once a day.

I do like the Magic Initiate to get Booming Blade idea, and no matter which Bard college you choose, you could work on being tougher than normal. As mentioned above, The Fighter level is a bit wasted if you choose Swords since you're doubling up the armor proficiencies. Lore does benefit more from a single Fighter level.

I wouldn't worry about taking anymore Fighter levels anytime soon as you don't want to put off your Bard features too much.

You should be reasonably tough with medium or heavy armor plus shield. You can take the Tough feat or Defensive Duelist to help you stand in melee better.

[sophontteks]

Just ask your life cleric to tank. Life clerics are crazy tanky. They have heavy armor and self-heal.

The big problem with your character right now is that, as a multiclass, you are going to be behind on your key abilities. Like, right now as a 4th level character you should have access to 2nd level spells, and 3rd level spells next level, but you only have 1st level spells right now, so you can't really bard. And if you wanted to be a front liner, you won't be seeing that precious second attack until 8th level while the other martial would be seeing it at 5th. If its possible, I would suggest you remove those fighter levels entirely and go straight bard. Or get rid of the bard levels entirely and go straight fighter.

[Finger6842]

Bards don't do well at the front regardless of what you do and Fighter doesn't mix well with Lore since the heavier armor negatively impacts your stealth abilities, which your party seems to need AND you lose spells. The Shield spell 1x/day won't help you stay there either. Lore Bard is a ton of fun though and becomes awesome at level 5. With Hypnotic Pattern and Major Image or Plant Growth you will own the battlefield. It only gets better from there but just as the others mentioned, you're a caster.

If you really are stuck on using a sword then try Rogue, you can backstab with the best of them, you just can't tank. Picking up Find Familiar will give you a semi-permanent help action. I agree with everyone else, in the end play what you choose.

[Boared Bard]

I didnt want to play a full caster and I thought a bard would be more resilient tbh.

Stats are str8, Dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 12, chr 16. War caster feat.

My dm feels I haven't really given the bard class a chance also.

I just don't think the party needs another caster.

So it's either sword bard or a rebuild - fighter/entertainer background may be.

[CTurbo]

Just go Sword Bard then. You'll have fun with it. Yeah you don't get as much from the fighter dip but it's not like you're character is ruined because of it. Lore Bards are fun too and if you chose that route, you'll just have a higher AC than most Lores from your Fighter dip. Either way works.

[McSkrag]

Is it too late to go Swashbuckler Rogue instead of Fighter?

A Swashbuckler X / Bard X sounds like a super fun Zorro type character. Lot's of synergy there. Also looks like your party is missing a rogue.

[CTurbo]

I agree a Swashbuckling Swords Bard would be a lot of fun. You'd want at least Rogue 5 if not 7 IMO though

[RSP]

I didnt want to play a full caster and I thought a bard would be more resilient tbh.

Stats are str8, Dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 12, chr 16. War caster feat.

My dm feels I haven't really given the bard class a chance also.

I just don't think the party needs another caster.

So it's either sword bard or a rebuild - fighter/entertainer background may be.

Warcaster helps in melee. I’d suggest Heroism if staying upfront a lot. If sticking with being in melee, I’d raise your Cha at Bard 4: you’ll want more Cutting Words and better casting, even if I’m melee. I’d not look towards feats as a melee/caster until your attack stat (Dex) and casting stat (Cha) are both better, seeing as you have Warcaster. If fighter was level 1 and you have prof in Con saves, all the better.

Personally, I think Cutting Words will be more helpful to you: be selective with its use until you hit Bard 5 and it becomes a Short Rest Ability. It’s kind of like Shield-lite, and it can absorb damage too (great on AoEs to help the whole party). If you get hit by a small margin, use it to negate the hit; if you get hit by a large margin, or a critical, use it to negate some damage.

At Bard 5, grab Fear, this will wreck encounters. At Bard 6, in your case Haste might be good for an extra Action and extra AC, though you have plenty to choose from (I might even grab Shield [better defense], though Spiritual Weapon [bonus action offense], Shadow Blade [great offensive damage] and Spirit Guardians [AoE] are all great for a melee caster - just pick wisely and don’t overload on Concentration - decide what your go-to Concentration Spell will be and then pick SW or Shield or something non-Concentration to help supliment).

If warranted after Bard 6, grab a few more fighter levels to get extra attack, then Bard the rest after that. You can skip the fighter levels and just stay Bard if by Bard 6 you like the way it’s working, though if still heavily melee, that extra attack can help (particularly if using Shadow Blade).

[sophontteks]

I didnt want to play a full caster and I thought a bard would be more resilient tbh.

Stats are str8, Dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 12, chr 16. War caster feat.

My dm feels I haven't really given the bard class a chance also.

I just don't think the party needs another caster.

So it's either sword bard or a rebuild - fighter/entertainer background may be.
A bard is a full caster, and probably the squishiest caster at that. Despite getting light armor, they lack most defensive spells that the other casters get. If you didn't want to play a caster, you probably picked the wrong class.

But, your party needs a skill monkey, and bards (espesially lore bards) offer that in spades. In the fighter vs. caster balance it doesn't matter. Your party has plenty of tankiness and they have plenty of casters. Your party doesn't need you in any combat roll really, they need a skill monkey. Like others said, I'd suggest a rogue, a bard, or some combination of the two.

With a big party your free to do what you want. The only thing I'd suggest is that you specialize. If you try to be multiple things you may find that yuur not actually good at anything. I wouldn't multiclass at all until you got a better handle on 5e.

[Sariel Vailo]

Magic intitate inflict wounds and a melee scagtrip. Also this fighter bard is doable with the right planning. What archetype were you looking at as a fighter.

[CTurbo]

I'm getting the feeling that you're feeling forced into playing a roll that you never intended on playing. For that I say don't fall into that trap. Don't feel like you MUST go into melee because other players want to hang back. Play your character how you want to play it. We've seen too many times on here somebody trying to adapt their build into being the healer, or into being tougher, or more DPR, etc...


A lot of people don't agree but this is why I think it's best for the players to kinda get with each other on their character ideas. That prevents the players from showing up with 2 Champion Fighters and two Clerics... which I have seen before. Four Str based characters all in Heavy Armor and not a lick of Dex or Cha.

Either way, ANY combination can work, the DM just has to adjust. I've seen parties succeed with no tank.

[A Fat Dragon]

Swords Bard can do some spell things, as strange as that may seem. There abilities allow you to cast spells while having weapons in both hands, so while Lore Bard gives spell potency, Sword Bard can come in with a healing spell at the last moment. In addition, this is your character - if you want to have a Swords Bard that acts like a Lore Bard, Nothing is stopping them. At the end of it all, it matters on what you want to play. Chances are, unless your entire party is a bunch of Pacifist clerics that only heal and don’t fight, you’re going to be fine, no matter what you choose.

[Citan]

Hi All

some thoughts on a old post. I am a human bard 2/fighter 2. I had been encouraged by my dm to go lore bard but due to the party make up (paladin/fighter/cleric/wix/sorcerer) I am ending up in in melee frequently. I like the depth of flavour with lore and have some good ideas of how to progress, but my character idea is based on zorro/fencer, so I am thinking sword bard, where i feel i will have more of an impact and more fun!

my dm is keen for me to give lore bard a go, and I would if the party had more fighter types for me to stand behind, but as we dont i am keen to give sword a go, especially as i could go fighter/battlemaster later and get that sword master feel.

thoughts?
Hey ;)
First things first: as everyone said, it's your character, you should focus on what you want to play, ESPECIALLY since your Fighter pal is kinda a lazy *** to me: as a Fighter, even if he normally goes ranged, he should have no problem switching to a finesse weapon and close in. So HE should be the one taking up the challenge when Paladin gets overwhelmed.

That aside...
Considering also this feedback...

Well the life cleric sticks at the back, the fighter is an archer and the paladin is the tank. When we get overwhelmed it's me, the wiz and sorcerer. So I step forward.

The sorcerer and me have been reduced to zero twice and just made our death saves.

Approaching lvl 3 bard, I like a lot of the lore college. I don't want to wait till 10th for magical secrets (7th I know) but how do u build a melee lore bard?

At 4th I was thinking of getting magic initiate (wiz) and fire bolt, shocking grasp and shield as a lore bard - but perhaps I could go martial adept and lick up some manoeuvres.

We are not using scag or any other supplements.
I was just ready to tell you to rely on Booming Blade, but it seems that one is off.

So.
1) You can still get Booming Blade per DM houserule or what not.
Then imo your best way, by far, is aiming towards a Eldricht Knight 3 / Lore Bard 3 then ramp up Bard. That way...
- You get a potent melee attack, not relying on a specific class feature (Extra Attack).
- You get Shield also, which is a great way to avoid being down if you keep in mind to spare one 1st level slot at all times for such emergencies.
- You still get to be a Lore Bard, which has all kinds of awesomeness. :)
- You can still get Extra Attack some time later if you really want it.
Big downside of course is that you are stalling your spellcasting time for quite some time. Considering there are a Wizard and Sorcerer in your party though, I think it's an acceptable trade-off for party if yourself are fine with it of course.

2) No "weapon cantrip", you still want melee.
Pick one level dip into Sorcerer for Shocking Grasp, Shield and Absorb Elements. Then go Lore Bard.
Or pick one level dip into Hexblade Warlock for CHA-based weapon attacks, Hex and either Shield or Expeditious Retreat or Armor of Agathys. Then go Swords Bard.
Rely on either Haste (if Lore, using Disengage/Dash for free) or Greater Invisibility when you get it. Grab Elemental Weapon at level 10 if you go Swords.

3) No "weapon cantrip", you'd rather avoid melee in the first place.
>> Go plain Lore Bard, get from spell list or magical secrets Plant Growth*, Erupting Earth, Sleet Storm, Cloudkill, etc... You get the idea: movement-hampering spells, that will help you help Paladin keep the frontline alone.
Another kind of spell that kind help is the Walls one: Wind Wall especially is golden against archers, but Wall of Fire too can be very nasty.
Option: dip one level into Draconic Sorcerer for Shield and Earth Tremor as well as decent AC for free, plus Shocking Grasp and Mold Earth.

Also, keep in mind that you are all still very frail, and again, it should NOT be YOUR job to get to the frontline as the first.
Fighter should not stand further than 30-40 feet from Paladin so he can put himself into harm's way in one round max.

If you like playing tactical, the best way is probably focusing on higher spells through pure Bard leveling, with possibly Lore as a priority (at level 5, your Bardic Inspiration will recharge on short rest, making Cutting Words much more efficient, especially considering you can learn Rope Trick, Catnap and ritual cast Leomund's Tiny Hut).

* If/when you get into a fight with enemy army mainly composed of melee, a Cleric's Freedom of Movement on Paladin while you cast Plant Growth will be a winning tactic, even if costly. It ensures that all the backliners are safe for several more rounds, while the Paladin can move around to risk at most one OA when he darts in and out.

[CTurbo]

Hey ;)
...since your Fighter pal is kinda a lazy *** to me: as a Fighter, even if he normally goes ranged, he should have no problem switching to a finesse weapon and close in. So HE should be the one taking up the challenge when Paladin gets overwhelmed.




I do agree with this 100%. The Fighter should be the first one backing up the Paladin, and THEN the Life Cleric should be after that. You should be a distant 3rd.

[RSP]

I do agree with this 100%. The Fighter should be the first one backing up the Paladin, and THEN the Life Cleric should be after that. You should be a distant 3rd.

To be fair, I think it’s disengenous to say to OP “play how you want to play, don’t just do what other Players tell you to do,” while then saying “make other Players run their characters how you think it should be done, not how they want to play their character.” I agree that the OP is free to play their character however they want, but so is the Player of the fighter.

[rbstr]

Absolutely go Swords Bard:
#1 it's what you want to do
#2 see #1

Like plenty of the points you've made make sense. You have a lot of casting power in the party but not so much melee going on. Swords (or Valor) bard can shore that up.
You also can fill in as a skill specialist in areas you might need.
IMO:
Get to level 6 Swords Bard and then add the second level of fighter for action surge and you can also think about adding two more levels of fighter at most (for an archetype and the ability score improvement, you don't want to get extra attack twice, it doesn't stack).

The key to remember is that the Swords Bard's power is still mostly in its ability to cast spells, so don't forget about them.

[Boared Bard]

Thanks all for some great advice, which I will think on.

As for martial archetype I was thinking battle master as I have int 10 which is not good enough for EK. champion offers something compatible to my background but BM offers lots of manouvr3s. Having spoken to the caster in my party they r desperate for some protection hence sword bard.

But magical secrets is a big pull and cutting words cab help protect them from range. As for the fighter he does get stuck in to be fair, but as a group we are short on melee support.

[GorogIrongut]

As for martial archetype I was thinking battle master as I have int 10 which is not good enough for EK. champion offers something compatible to my background but BM offers lots of manouvr3s. Having spoken to the caster in my party they r desperate for some protection hence sword bard.

But magical secrets is a big pull and cutting words cab help protect them from range. As for the fighter he does get stuck in to be fair, but as a group we are short on melee support.

EK's have no need of a high intelligence. There are LOADS of spells you can choose from that avoid a need of any intelligence modifier.

Someone had suggested swapping out Swashbuckler for Fighter. I second this. It's very useful. It would also help solidify your party's great need of a skill monkey (Lore helps with skill monkey and so does my favourite bard, the Satire bard).

As everyone has said, the Life Cleric needs to step up. It's got nothing to do with you being tough in a fight or not. In a few levels they're going to start using Spirit Guardians and that will require them to be on the frontline. They need to start getting used to, at the very least, being right behind the frontline.

If it were me, you've got plenty of casters and plenty of people capable of being frontliners. Your character should be a happy medium. I'd go Swashbuckler 3/Bard (Lore or Satire) 17. You'll have mad, crazy, ridonculous skills. You'll be a viable face. Rogues are quite survivable in combat so you'll be happy floating right behind the frontline so you can find someone to get sneaky on. And with all of that, you'll also still be a full caster who gets loads of magic secrets.

p.s. I mentioned Swashbuckler because I feel strongly that your party is lacking in a skill monkey. If you really want to go more combat, then you're probably better off putting 2 levels into Hexblade and just skipping the fighter entirely. That would open up your casting to a whole bunch of fun while letting you be mostly SAD - Charisma. Eldritch repelling Blast the mooks heading for your softer party members.