Lancer Paladin Viability

[Maquise]

I'm somewhat new to 5e, and have a lot of experience with Pathfinder, so I'll get that out of the way from the start. What I am wondering is, how viable is it to make a mounted-combat themed paladin in 5e, and how would one go about it? At first glance, it does not seem very useful, at least, not without a little bit of DM finagling. I know that the Mounted Combat feat is good for mount survivability, but it still seems like they are very fragile for the most part.

[Mellack]

Mounted Combatant makes the mount a lot more durable, and at 5th level paladins can cast Find Steed. That means even if your mount does die or you can't take it in somewhere, it is not too hard to get it back.

[NaughtyTiger]

The mount is fragile, especially without mounted combatant feat.
Things that help:
warding bond (cleric or paladin-crown)
aid
false life (wiz or warlock)

my mount is wearing ring of evasion

[nickl_2000]

The mount is fragile, especially without mounted combatant feat.
Things that help:
warding bond (cleric or paladin-crown)
aid
false life (wiz or warlock)

my mount is wearing ring of evasion

Saddle of the Caviler too.

[strangebloke]

Okay, so I've put a lot of thought into this. Bear with me here.

First, the lance.
Pros:
It deals 2 more damage than any other 1-handed weapon if you're on a mount. It deals 1 more damage than any other reach weapon. It deal 4 more damage than the other 1-handed reach weapon.


Cons:
Disadvantage if you're hitting within five feet.


Overall, it's generally not worth using, unless you're on a mount. On a mount, it's incredibly strong. If your character is going to spend any amount of time mounted, and you were already speccing for 1-handed combat (dueling style, etc.) you should have a lance. The disadvantage seems bad, but it actually should never come up if you're on a large-sized mount.

This is due to a complex rules interaction. A large mount occupies four squares. Do you, the player riding the mount, occupy 1/4 of each square, or 1 of the four squares, or all of the four squares? JC put the kibosh on the last of those interpretations, and I believe (though I can't find the quote) that he favors the second one. At the start of your turn, you decide which 'corner' of the mount's controlled area you occupy. So you can always decide your position such that you'll not be attacking at disadvantage.

Second, the Mount.
Pros:
Optionally, your mount can act as a minion with its own turn. Can add a modest damage boost if your mount is intelligent enough to be entrusted with this.
You can order your mount to dodge/disengage/dash. No, this doesn't cost you anything. Yes, you should do this every round. Mounts therefore boost mobility by a huge amount.
Even if the mount is vulnerable, every attack against it is an attack that isn't hitting you. 40~some hp for a second level spell ain't horrible! 100~some hp for a fourth level spell ain't terrible either.
Skills. Some mounts have skills and abilities that let you do things you otherwise couldn't. Find Greater Steed gives you flying mounts, of course, but you might be able to argue yourself into a Giant Owl with regular find steed, which has better saves, skills, and abilities than a warhorse, but worse damage. (and is lower CR)


Cons:
Depending on level, your mount is very vulnerable. Bad saves, low hp, and low AC. If you're on a flying mount, this can be disastrous, but even on a regular mount its bad. Fear is a spell, and it wrecks mounted builds.
Large size, small dungeon. Woops, that door is too narrow for a horse, sorry! Some DMs feel very clever when they do this. Before dedicating to a mounted build, ask your DM "How much of this will be outdoors?"
Checks to avoid being dismounted or to retain control of your horse. Once again, ask your DM how often these are going to come up. If the answer is "Every time the mount takes damage." don't run a mounted build.


How to Make Your Mount Better:
Barding. Costs four times as much as normal armor, weighs twice as much. Generally, I think mounts are assumed to be proficient in all types of armor, but once again... ask your DM. It isn't covered by RAW.
Military Saddle. Advantage on any check to remain mounted. CANNOT be used on flying mounts, so watch out.
Mounted Combatant. Advantage against everyone medium size or smaller is awesome. Protecting your mount is good. I would actually advise letting your mount take a few small hits in each combat. Remember, replacing your mount is sort of cheap, and it can use hit dice to heal on a short rest.
Dodge every turn. Between this and mounted combatant, your mount should only rarely take AOE damage.
pump charisma so that your aura effects your mount and makes him more resilient to spells.
Choose your mounts wisely. Warhorse is the best mount you can easily buy, but has bad saves. Giant Owl is the best mount with a low enough CR to possibly be summoned with regular find steed, and has good saves and skills and can fly, but it has bad saddle options and does no damage. Pegasus is just about perfect for find greater steed but other options include the Peryton (resistance to all nonmagical b/s/p) and the guard drake (its a dragon).
Inspiring Leader. Give your mount a defensive boost between most combats. 10 HP every 10 minutes isn't bad at all.


Ultimately, there are lots of ways to prevent damage to your mount, but it is going to be very weak to AOE save-or-suck effects. Being a paladin with high charisma fixes some of this, but still. Falling to your death after your pegasus fails a save against hold monster is a stupid way for a level 11 PC to die.

[tieren]

I would go with a small race on a medium mount so the indoors thing doesn't become too much of a problem. Like a halfling on a mastiff. Between the benefits of find steed and taking say the protection fighting style, I think the mounted combatant feat is superfluous.

[strangebloke]

I would go with a small race on a medium mount so the indoors thing doesn't become too much of a problem. Like a halfling on a mastiff. Between the benefits of find steed and taking say the protection fighting style, I think the mounted combatant feat is superfluous.

Large mounts have benefits if you want to use a lance. (See my post) However in general... I still disagree with you. The mount options are much better for a large mount.

[Maquise]

For flavor reasons, I would prefer to stick with warhorse/pegasus. Is that still workable, outside of dungeons?

[Grear Bylls]

Large mounts have benefits if you want to use a lance. (See my post) However in general... I still disagree with you. The mount options are much better for a large mount.

How is a large mount better with a lance than a small character? It isn't heavy, and therefore is the only d12 weapon effective for a small character. The within 5 ft. disadvantage is t a problem, either, as you even mentioned a mount gives you effectively a free disengage. You also have 40 feet of movement on a mastiff, more than the typical 30 for lower level monsters. Mastiffs are also SOOOOO much cheaper.

I don't see how a small character is any less viable than a medium one. I'd argue they might be a little better, in fact (other than looking more stupidly)

[sophontteks]

Mounts are really effective as they are. But they can't go everywhere. You gotta take this question to the DM. Is this campaign going to allow you to engage in mounted combat with enough frequency to be worth the investment?

Mounts allow you to move 120 feet per round while using all of your attacks and without provoking attacks of opportunity, unless they have reach. So, yeah, they are strong. Paladins can summon mounts as well.

[NorthernPhoenix]

How is a large mount better with a lance than a small character? It isn't heavy, and therefore is the only d12 weapon effective for a small character. The within 5 ft. disadvantage is t a problem, either, as you even mentioned a mount gives you effectively a free disengage. You also have 40 feet of movement on a mastiff, more than the typical 30 for lower level monsters. Mastiffs are also SOOOOO much cheaper.

I don't see how a small character is any less viable than a medium one. I'd argue they might be a little better, in fact (other than looking more stupidly)

For a lot of people who want to run mounts for reasons other than charop, this matters A LOT.

[mephnick]

How is a large mount better with a lance than a small character? )

It generally removes the strongest feature of Mounted Combatant because your mount is no longer larger than most of your enemies.

[Malifice]

Okay, so I've put a lot of thought into this. Bear with me here.

First, the lance.
Pros:
It deals 2 more damage than any other 1-handed weapon if you're on a mount. It deals 1 more damage than any other reach weapon. It deal 4 more damage than the other 1-handed reach weapon.


Cons:
Disadvantage if you're hitting within five feet.

.


When are you ever attacking within 5' with a lance?

Your mount can take the disengage action every round. When you're mounted you use your mounts speed instead of your own, you have the mobility of a dashing Rogue with Mobility feat on your horsey.

If you cant be bothered disengaging and moving around the place and full attacking every round, have the horse Dodge (while you attack).

And if your enemy is 100' away, have your horse Dash, and then move 100' or whatever your horses double speed is, and you can attack the same round when you get there.

It should be in Plate barding as soon as you can afford it (the thing cant attack when you do unless it's intelligent and you want it to take seperate actions so who cares if its even proficient)?

Thanks to Share Spells its often worth it to have your Mount act independently. Those crap Paladin smite spells that no-one likes? They work with the Share Spells part of Find Steed spell.

Cast Branding smite/ Searing Smite/ Banishing smite on yourself, and your mount gets it as well.

[Throne12]

They where just talking about pets, mounts, and npc's . Getting xp and leveling up with the party It in the DMG somewhere. They can even take class levels. So you can buy a mount and if you keep it alive and Adventure with it and share xp. That's one way to help keep it alive and make mounted combat more enjoyable

[strangebloke]

For flavor reasons, I would prefer to stick with warhorse/pegasus. Is that still workable, outside of dungeons?

totally workable. A large mount can still fit through 5 foot doorways, remember. It just can't do so quickly. Most dungeons have wider than 5 foot doorways. More likely you're going to run into ceiling problems.

The number one concern for any mounted character is having their mount lose a saving throw.


How is a large mount better with a lance than a small character? It isn't heavy, and therefore is the only d12 weapon effective for a small character. The within 5 ft. disadvantage is t a problem, either, as you even mentioned a mount gives you effectively a free disengage. You also have 40 feet of movement on a mastiff, more than the typical 30 for lower level monsters. Mastiffs are also SOOOOO much cheaper.

I don't see how a small character is any less viable than a medium one. I'd argue they might be a little better, in fact (other than looking more stupidly)
Lots of reasons.

the only listed small mount for find steed is the Mastiff, which... is crap. It's got piddly hp, crappy saves, weak move speed, and a crappy attack action. It's only saving grace is that it's a decent scout.
As Mephnick pointed out, you lose the main bonus of Mounted combatant: Free advantage
It looks stupid.


When are you ever attacking within 5' with a lance?

Your mount can take the disengage action every round. When you're mounted you use your mounts speed instead of your own, you have the mobility of a dashing Rogue with Mobility feat on your horsey.

If you cant be bothered disengaging and moving around the place and full attacking every round, have the horse Dodge (while you attack).

And if your enemy is 100' away, have your horse Dash, and then move 100' or whatever your horses double speed is, and you can attack the same round when you get there.

It should be in Plate barding as soon as you can afford it (the thing cant attack when you do unless it's intelligent and you want it to take seperate actions so who cares if its even proficient)?

Thanks to Share Spells its often worth it to have your Mount act independently. Those crap Paladin smite spells that no-one likes? They work with the Share Spells part of Find Steed spell.

Cast Branding smite/ Searing Smite/ Banishing smite on yourself, and your mount gets it as well.
Right, I know all this.

But perhaps your team needs you to hold the line. Or perhaps you want to get AoOs. My point is that the 'disadvantage w/in five feet' should basically never come up, ever.

The share spells ability is crazy strong. Crown paladin stacking spirits guardians twice? Yes please.