Elemental Wildshape

[nickl_2000]

Hi all,

I'm a whole 400 XP away from hitting level 10 as a moon druid, so I will be hitting level 10 either Wednesday night during the session or afterwards. So, I'm trying to figure out the best uses of Elemental Wildshape. What shapes do you use most often? What do you find to be the best tactics?

Also for information sake the rest of the party consists of a reach/booming blade Half-Orc Stone Sorcerer, a Fiend pack bladelock, a Dex based EK/Rogue, and a bard who is new to the group.

[hymer]

What feats have you picked up? Even without Mobile, earthies have 10' reach, and can hit and run using earth glide.
The speed of air elementals is very seductive if you're into that kind of thing. I am.
Don't forget that you can function as summoner in elemental form. Elementals can speak. But you will likely want to stay out of harm's way, unless you have both proficiency in Cons aves and Warcaster.

[nickl_2000]

What feats have you picked up? Even without Mobile, earthies have 10' reach, and can hit and run using earth glide.
The speed of air elementals is very seductive if you're into that kind of thing. I am.
Don't forget that you can function as summoner in elemental form. Elementals can speak. But you will likely want to stay out of harm's way, unless you have both proficiency in Cons aves and Warcaster.

I have Sentinel, Mobile, and Healer for my feats. I'm a VHuman running 18 Wisdom and 18 Con at the moment (with an intelligence of 9 and Charisma of 6).

[hymer]

I have Sentinel, Mobile, and Healer for my feats. I'm a VHuman running 18 Wisdom and 18 Con at the moment (with an intelligence of 9 and Charisma of 6).

Sounds like regular tanking with earth elemental form will be worth doing quite a bit. The fighter/rogue will probably like having you flank for him anyway, like I'm guessing you've been doing a lot.

[nickl_2000]

Sounds like regular tanking with earth elemental form will be worth doing quite a bit. The fighter/rogue will probably like having you flank for him anyway, like I'm guessing you've been doing a lot.

The fighter/rogue has only 1 level in Rogue so far. So, while sneak attack is helpful, it isn't as necessary. As a group we do use flanking (provides +1 to attacks, unless you have advantage). So, that's a solid choice with earth elemental.

Also as a side note, we are currently fighting Giants who have not had much in the way of magical weapons.

[NaughtyTiger]

What feats have you picked up? Even without Mobile, earthies have 10' reach, and can hit and run using earth glide.
The speed of air elementals is very seductive if you're into that kind of thing. I am.
Don't forget that you can function as summoner in elemental form. Elementals can speak. But you will likely want to stay out of harm's way, unless you have both proficiency in Cons aves and Warcaster.

They can speak, but explicitly cannot cast until level 18.
"You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form."
[casting spells is independent from speaking/using hands]


Otherwise,
water: engulf a caster, they can't breathe, ergo, they can't cast (plus i got a water theme)
fire: hit a caster, they take ongoing fire damage (low, but they have to make con saves for concentration)
air: i have 1 level of monk, so 20AC. plus i precast investiture of fire, so i am a firenado...

[Vogie]

They can speak, but explicitly cannot cast until level 18.
"You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form."
[casting spells is independent from speaking/using hands]

Accurate, but since we're talking Moon Druid, they can just as easily Summon elemental as their action, then shift into an elemental as a bonus action.

[dejarnjc]

Otherwise,
water: engulf a caster, they can't breathe, ergo, they can't cast (plus i got a water theme)

I think you can cast spells underwater so you should be able to do so inside a water elemental.

[MrStabby]

I think you can cast spells underwater so you should be able to do so inside a water elemental.

I don't see why not, as long as you can breath underwater, or the spell doesn't need verbal components.

[dejarnjc]

I don't see why not, as long as you can breath underwater, or the spell doesn't need verbal components.

Well I can speak perfectly fine underwater as a normal, red-blooded, human, it's not my fault that others can't hear me. But anyway, I think Crawford tweeted something like you can cast a spell underwater that requires a verbal component but then you immediately begin suffocating/drowning. Bit harsh IMO but reasonable and not too complicated.

[Dalebert]

Nice thing about gaining casting in wildshape at 18th is the restriction on material components is just beast forms. Elementals have hands and can hold a focus or other material components.

[nickl_2000]

Nice thing about gaining casting in wildshape at 18th is the restriction on material components is just beast forms. Elementals have hands and can hold a focus or other material components.

A solid point, but sadly it won't be a consideration in my current campaign. The DM said awhile ago that we would be hitting around level 16, and we have picked up another player since then (so it may be lower).

[Arkhios]

I'm a huge fan of earth elemental as well. That strength is insane!

[Malifice]

I have Sentinel, Mobile, and Healer for my feats. I'm a VHuman running 18 Wisdom and 18 Con at the moment (with an intelligence of 9 and Charisma of 6).

Earth and Fire are the best.

With fire 'the first time' you enter a creatures space on your turn you deal 1d10 fire damage (recurring until it puts itself out).

You then whack it twice, with each hit dealing damage plus also setting it on fire.

Sadly the 1d10 ongoing damage doesnt stack (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/23/does-fire-elementals-fire-damage-stack/), but nothing stopping you from entering one creatures space, and then whacking 2 more.

[nickl_2000]

Earth and Fire are the best.

With fire 'the first time' you enter a creatures space on your turn you deal 1d10 fire damage (recurring until it puts itself out).

You then whack it twice, with each hit dealing damage plus also setting it on fire.

Sadly the 1d10 ongoing damage doesnt stack (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/23/does-fire-elementals-fire-damage-stack/), but nothing stopping you from entering one creatures space, and then whacking 2 more.

I was looking at two options. 1 would be to use the disengage action, then see how many people I could light on fire in a single turn. That seems like the best hoard breaker ability with a Fire Elemental. Seeing as how I'm fighting giants right now with reach, I think I should be able to carefully move around to light several on fire and use the normal attacks combine with mobile to leave some nice lasting damage.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I was looking at two options. 1 would be to use the disengage action, then see how many people I could light on fire in a single turn. That seems like the best hoard breaker ability with a Fire Elemental. Seeing as how I'm fighting giants right now with reach, I think I should be able to carefully move around to light several on fire and use the normal attacks combine with mobile to leave some nice lasting damage.

You might do better either the Dash action. If they hit you with AoOs then they take 1d10 Fire, plus you have lots of HP and resistances.

Edit: investiture of Ice before fire elemental form is crazy good btw.

[nickl_2000]

You might do better either the Dash action. If they hit you with AoOs then they take 1d10 Fire, plus you have lots of HP and resistances.

Edit: investiture of Ice before fire elemental form is crazy good btw.

Why? Is it that fact that it protects you from the cold damage taken when you touch water? What else about it makes it crazy good?

[Mortis_Elrod]

Why? Is it that fact that it protects you from the cold damage taken when you touch water? What else about it makes it crazy good?

If your goal is to set them on fire the difficult terrain and cone blast are very helpful for that. And yes the immune to cold is great too, if enemies keep trying to give you a bath.

Something to note is that many people would think using cold damage might be effective against an elemental. So that value depends on how your DM plays the NPCs, but still could merit value.

Oh and being a FrostFire Elemental is just cool. +40 coolness points.

[nickl_2000]

If your goal is to set them on fire the difficult terrain and cone blast are very helpful for that. And yes the immune to cold is great too, if enemies keep trying to give you a bath.

Something to note is that many people would think using cold damage might be effective against an elemental. So that value depends on how your DM plays the NPCs, but still could merit value.

Oh and being a FrostFire Elemental is just cool. +40 coolness points.

Alright thanks, despite being a Druid for over a year a now, I still struggle with some of the battlefield control spells effectiveness. I was planning on dipping a level into arcana cleric at level 11 to pick up more skills (arcana comes up a lot in this campaign), a lot more cantrips, and more prepared spells in a day. I will watch for this as a possibility at level 12 though.


EDIT: Investiture of Flame as a fire elemental seems pretty amazing too. You could do 1d10 fire damage when you enter their space, 1d10 fire damage on the start of their turn, 1d10 fire damage if it moves within 5 feet of me, and 1d10 fire damage if it attacks me.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Alright thanks, despite being a Druid for over a year a now, I still struggle with some of the battlefield control spells effectiveness. I was planning on dipping a level into arcana cleric at level 11 to pick up more skills (arcana comes up a lot in this campaign), a lot more cantrips, and more prepared spells in a day. I will watch for this as a possibility at level 12 though.


EDIT: Investiture of Flame as a fire elemental seems pretty amazing too. You could do 1d10 fire damage when you enter their space, 1d10 fire damage on the start of their turn, 1d10 fire damage if it moves within 5 feet of me, and 1d10 fire damage if it attacks me.

Indeed. Double inferno is a good strat too. Just walk around the battlefield for a bit and everyone will be on fire. Plus you can make fire lines. I love the investiture spells. So much fun

[NaughtyTiger]

Alright thanks, despite being a Druid for over a year a now, I still struggle with some of the battlefield control spells effectiveness.


as a druid, plant growth is one heckuva control spell.
4x movement (5x if you have a difficult terrain effect)
1 action
no concentration (allowing spike growth, investiture of, call lightning...)
you can specify no growth paths (so make 5 ft paths for your party to use, and the large giant is stuck touching 4x movement)

walls are useful too... split the bad guys forces in 2 groups
water+cold = ice
fire
stone
thorns

[nickl_2000]

as a druid, plant growth is one heckuva control spell.
4x movement (5x if you have a difficult terrain effect)
1 action
no concentration (allowing spike growth, investiture of, call lightning...)
you can specify no growth paths (so make 5 ft paths for your party to use, and the large giant is stuck touching 4x movement)

walls are useful too... split the bad guys forces in 2 groups
water+cold = ice
fire
stone
thorns

I've used plant growth. I love that there is no end time on it either. I used it to fortify the outside of a city that was being attacked by giants (slow the suckers down while we plinked them to death). With 3 days lead time that was super, super effective. Sure, the town now has a jungle outside of all it's entrances that they will need a machete to get through and re-establish trading paths, but I'm an adventurer that's not my problem.

[Malifice]

I was looking at two options. 1 would be to use the disengage action, then see how many people I could light on fire in a single turn.

The answer is 3 max.

You can only set one creature on fire per turn by moving through its space (even if you move through 20 creatures spaces on your turn).

Plus you can slap 2 more with the attack action.

[nickl_2000]

You can only set one creature on fire per turn by moving through its space (even if you move through 20 creatures spaces on your turn).


Why is this so?

[Malifice]

Why is this so?

The ability reads:

The first time it enters a creature's space on a turn, that creature takes 5 (1d10) fire damage and catches fire; until someone takes an action to douse the fire, the creature takes 5 (1d10) fire damage at the start of each of its turns.

It only affects a creature once per turn (the first time you enter a creatures space).

If you can move on different turns, you can torch multiple creatures (one creature per turn; the first creature whos space you enter each turn).

[nickl_2000]

The ability reads:

The first time it enters a creature's space on a turn, that creature takes 5 (1d10) fire damage and catches fire; until someone takes an action to douse the fire, the creature takes 5 (1d10) fire damage at the start of each of its turns.

It only affects a creature once per turn (the first time you enter a creatures space).

If you can move on different turns, you can torch multiple creatures (one creature per turn; the first creature whos space you enter each turn).

Really? I read that completely differently. I read it as the first time you enter any creatures space on a turn you deal 1d10 damage and light them on fire. You can enter their space over and over again, but don't deal more damage to that creature. However, if you then enter a different creatures space you will also do damage to them.

[MaxWilson]

Why is this so?

It's not true.

You can only damage a given creature once per turn, but you can do it once per turn to every creature you can reach. Technically you can even double the damage by Readying a move instead of Dashing, so that you move through the creatures on your turn and *also* someone else's turn.

[Malifice]

It's not true.

You can only damage a given creature once per turn, but you can do it once per turn to every creature you can reach. Technically you can even double the damage by Readying a move instead of Dashing, so that you move through the creatures on your turn and *also* someone else's turn.

Other people are reading it the same that it's only once per turn when you enter a creatures space.

I'm open to either interpretation though.

Do you have a source or reference for this interpretation?

[MaxWilson]

Other people are reading it the same that it's only once per turn when you enter a creatures space.

Out of curiosity: which people besides you?

[Malifice]

Out of curiosity: which people besides you?

Numerous reddit threads. Google it.

That's what I did. Its not clear, but the consensus out there seems to be leaning towards 1/ turn.

[BreaktheStatue]

Numerous reddit threads. Google it.

That's what I did. Its not clear, but the consensus out there seems to be leaning towards 1/ turn.

Grammatically, I could understand either interpretation, but it seems like WOTC tends to explicitly specify when an ability is only meant to be used "once per turn." (Death Domain Cleric's Divine Strike was the first random example I could find, but I know there are more).

If the intent was 1/turn, why not just say "Once per turn, when you first enter..." ?

[Malifice]

What if the sentence instead said 'the first time you attack a creature on your turn...'

Woild we interpret that as the ability works if you attack multiple creatures or only the first one you swung at?

I'm really not sure how its supposed to be interpreted. I can see arguments for both.

[MaxWilson]

Grammatically, I could understand either interpretation, but it seems like WOTC tends to explicitly specify when an ability is only meant to be used "once per turn." (Death Domain Cleric's Divine Strike was the first random example I could find, but I know there are more).

If the intent was 1/turn, why not just say "Once per turn, when you first enter..." ?

It seems clear that the vast majority of posters on this thread agree with you. Malifice appears to be the only one here who thinks you can only set one creature on fire per turn. If anyone else does, speak up and explain why!

Since the consensus ruling is also the common sense ruling (can't set someone on fire when they're already on fire), OP is probably safe in just planning for that interpretation. There may be some DMs on reddit who won't let you set fire to four goblins in one turn, but until I meet one I wouldn't worry about it.

Anyway...

Air and earth forms are great for mobility, even though the damage is in some ways worse. Combine with Mobile feat if you want to. Also, Earth Elemental has both poison immunity and blindsight, in case anyone in your party wants to play tricks with Cloudkill/Stinking Cloud: you'll be immune and anyone in the cloud with you will be in pain, especially if you grapple them there.

Air form also has an interesting AoE attack.

Water firm has an interesting trick for restraining enemies, though IIRC it only works on Medium enemies.

Overall they're all pretty good.