Possible fix for the Undying patron?

[Cerefel]

So the Undying patron is often considered the weakest patron that the warlock has access to. My idea for fixing this would be to remove Speak with Dead from its expanded spell list and replace it with Animate Dead.

I feel that this would give the Undying patron its own niche, but I am a little concerned as to whether it may be too powerful.

What are the playground's collective thoughts on the matter?

[Garfunion]

The Undying patron isn’t about becoming a nercomancer and creating/summoning undead. It is about the warlock using “unholy” magic to prolong their existence upon the mortal world.

[MaxWilson]

The Undying patron isn’t about becoming a nercomancer and creating/summoning undead. It is about the warlock using “unholy” magic to prolong their existence upon the mortal world.

That makes me think they ought to have a custom invocation that lets them learn Magic Jar.

[Cerefel]

Well I don't really see how Animate Dead is any *less* thematically appropriate than Speak with Dead in that regard, though if you have suggestions for other changes I would love to hear them

[Grod_The_Giant]

I... wouldn't go with Animate Dead, due to the wonky way it'll interact with short-rest casting-- though it could make a fun invocation. If you want to boost the pact, I'd start by overhauling Among the Dead-- at the moment it's good, but very niche.

[Garfunion]

Well I don't really see how Animate Dead is any *less* thematically appropriate than Speak with Dead in that regard, though if you have suggestions for other changes I would love to hear them
The problem is, what are you wanting out of this Patron? To me RP wise the archetype is fine.
I do not have the book in front of me to break down it’s feature to see what could be changed.

[Naanomi]

Besides a... passable but nothing spectacular... spell list:

1) Know spare the dying, resistance to disease, perminant sanctuary VS Undead
6) Heal 1-13 HP once per long rest under specific circumstances
10) slow aging, no need to eat/breath/sleep (but doesn’t remove need for long rest)
14) Heal 15-28 once per long rest, can reattach severed parts (note: virtually nothing existing severs parts)

[MaxWilson]

Well I don't really see how Animate Dead is any *less* thematically appropriate than Speak with Dead in that regard, though if you have suggestions for other changes I would love to hear them

Passing out Animate Dead to a warlock just seems like asking for trouble with pacing. If the warlock realizes he can animate arbitrary numbers of zombies (up to a point), why should he stop at just one hour's worth? Why not three? Or five? Or ten?

The problem might be self-correcting as other players realize they don't like hanging around waiting for the Undying warlock to finish babysitting his hordes, and they want to just proceed with the adventure and leave him behind. But it seems like a problem that doesn't need to exist--why create it?

If you just want to give Undying a small power boost, you could e.g. make them immune to Exhaustion and point out the synergies between Berserker Barbarians and Undying bladelocks, for example. Or you could steal Hexblade's "animate specter" ability and attach it to the Undying warlock. You could even take the Undying's current abilities and just turn them up to 11, e.g. making the long rest abilities short-rest abilities and the short-rest abilities recharge 5-6.

There's a lot of things I would consider doing before I considered encouraging warlocks to spam Animate Dead 24 hours a day.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well I don't really see how Animate Dead is any *less* thematically appropriate than Speak with Dead in that regard, though if you have suggestions for other changes I would love to hear them

Well, when you live for a really long time the people you liked to speak with often die long before you do, seems nice to have a way to bring them back around for a nice conversation.

I think it has its own theme down just fine, can't argue that at a glance it seems a little subdued compared to other patrons. I think you'd have better luck making some changes to class features rather than the expanded spell list.

The idea to give them Magic Jar as a high level invocation is pretty good, like MaxWilson suggested. Custom invocations are cool and can help further exemplify your warlocks unique skills, I wish there were more subclass based invocations.

I personally would consider allowing Defy Death to recharge on a Short Rest, perhaps even consider giving an amount of uses equal to their constitution modifier (undying seems to push Con as a secondary stat thematically). It seems a bit lame to limit such a niche skill to a LR on Warlock's SR based design. Take some of the limitations off other features, like Among the Dead making creatures immune to the feature for 24 hours if you target them. Make the reattaching of limbs a separate bonus action that isn't tied to resting, you don't often lose a limb so I don't see the harm.

[Tanngrisnr]

Never played one, never seen one in play. As Garfunion said above, RP wise the archetype is fine.

That said, if I were to make a few tweaks in the archetype's mechanics, I'd probably go for something like this:

--WARNING: None of this has seen any playtesting, and probably never will--

1st lvl: Among the Dead - Add HD thresholds identical do the Cleric's Destroy Undead, but instead of destroying them nice skeletons, undead with HD equal to or smaller than the number shown in the table (see the Cleric's ability) outright ignore you, no save necessary. If you attack them or cast a harmful spell on them, they can attack you as normal. Undead with more than 4HD still follow the game mechanics as presented in SCAG. If this is too strong, remove the "ignore effect" from undead with more than 4HD.

Alternatively, become immune to disease and gain advantage on Death Saves.

6th lvl: Defy Death - Make it recharge on a short rest.

If you choose the homebrew mechanic that gives you advantage on Death Saves, short rest Defy Death becomes a really good feature.

10th lvl: Undying Nature - I'd leave as is.

14th lvl: Undestructible Life - Increase the number of hit points regained. Something like 5d10 (half the damage of Hurl Through Hell). Maybe make this work with your spell slots. Two uses of a 5d10 heal per short rest, but at a very high cost.

[sophontteks]

There is nothing wrong with the undying. Its spell list is ok. Its just not the strongest from an optimizers standpoint. Something which is honestly over-rated.

Speak with dead is actually danm strong. And you can pretty much use it at will. You can rest after using it in most cases.

If I was going to fix it, spare the undying could be given the grave cleric treatment. Let it be used at range as a bonus action. Its not super original, but lets face it. The cantrip is useless without these buffs.

That alone would make it a top pick.

[Naanomi]

The problem with speak with the dead on the spell list is that most Undying warlocks I would play would be taking the unlimited use invocation anyways...

[Mortis_Elrod]

I would loved it if you got some awesome Necro powers.


I don't mind the whole immortality thing, I just wish not every single ability was about that.

Edit: give me some life stealing affects. or anything Active besides spare he dying. If i wanted to support my party i would have went with celestial patron for ranged bonus action heals.

[sophontteks]

The problem with speak with the dead on the spell list is that most Undying warlocks I would play would be taking the unlimited use invocation anyways...
They could just not do this and use that invocation elsewhere. I think in most cases it shouldn't be too hard to short rest after speaking with the dead.

[Specter]

That wouldn't be a problem at all, considering that a Divine Soul/Warlock can already do that.

[Naanomi]

They could just not do this and use that invocation elsewhere. I think in most cases it shouldn't be too hard to short rest after speaking with the dead.
Meh, I would want to be talking to all the dead all the time... not resting to do it.

Undying gets undercut by Hexblade a lot. Want a death themed Warlock? You can summon a spectre with Hexblade! You like healing and the durability it gives? Hexblade gives armor, a defensive curse, and a source of Temp HP that very likely overshadows the healing you get on the long-rest in a busy day. Even thematically the tie to the Shadowfel is sort of 'death-y'

[LichPlease]

Here are the links to my Undying Warlock guide. Hope it helps.

Original:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561519-Lich-Please!-My-Undying-Warlock-Necromancer-Guide

Abridged:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564461-Abridged-Undying-Warlock-Necromancer-Guide

[JoeJ]

Undying gets undercut by Hexblade a lot. Want a death themed Warlock? You can summon a spectre with Hexblade! You like healing and the durability it gives? Hexblade gives armor, a defensive curse, and a source of Temp HP that very likely overshadows the healing you get on the long-rest in a busy day. Even thematically the tie to the Shadowfel is sort of 'death-y'

Remember that Undying is intended to be sort of niche. It's unique to Faerun, not something that is expected to exist in every D&D campaign.

[Eragon123]

Remember that Undying is intended to be sort of niche. It's unique to Faerun, not something that is expected to exist in every D&D campaign.

And with the Hexblade, it’s likely to not exist in any. Or more reasonably, much less than it used to be and it was hardly popular to begin with.