How would you build your beguiler and why?

[Jahjohama]

If you were making a beguiler, how would you build it?

What race, feats, skills, multiclass, and prestige classes would you take and why?

[Psyren]

For broad questions like this, handbooks are your best starting point. Check out the Beguiler Handbook (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php?topic=727.0), then come back with any specific questions you might have or specific concepts you want to realize from among what the class is good at.

[Arael666]

I would probably make a beguiler beguiler

[Cosi]

Obviously the Beguiler is a spellcaster. You get a bunch of Illusion and Enchantment magic. People rag on that, but the package is actually quite good. At 1st level, color spray, sleep, silent image, and charm person are quite sufficient to win almost any encounter, and at 4th level you pick up glitterdust. Throughout your career you get consistently good will-based save-or-dies. charm monster et al are generally underestimated by the forum. Yes, some things are immune. Yes, your enemies could cast protection from good. But if they aren't or don't, you get to recruit permanent allies. That's completely nuts. It also takes Diplomacy from a significant investment to stupidly easy (charm makes people Friendly, at which point they become Helpful after only a DC 20 check). You also get some utility options like dispel magic and haste.

But the spell list isn't the selling point for the Beguiler. The casting mechanic is. Beguilers (alongside Warmages and Dread Necromancers) have the best casting mechanic in the entire game. They know all the spells on their list, and they can cast whichever spell they happen to want out of any given spell slot. They do face some restrictions. Their list is a lot shorter than a Sorcerer's (though, frankly, they get as many good spells at most levels and literally anything else -- also, its all up front). They have a level's delay from the Wizard. But their versatility is pretty solid. It also means spells that would otherwise be worthless gain some marginal value because the Beguiler doesn't have to put any effort into having the option. rouse is a pretty garbage spell. No Sorcerer would bother to learn it, and few Wizards would learn it unless they were learning all the spells (and even then, they'd never prepare it). But there are some points where it might be useful -- not every game, not even every session, but sometimes -- and only a Beguiler is going to be able to take advantage of it then.

So the obvious direction to take a Beguiler is one that takes advantage of their powerful casting mechanic. Adding more spells to your list is uniquely good as a Beguiler, because you don't have to spend additional resources to learn those spells. The classic example of this is the Rainbow Servant. You get some Prestige Domains (which give you extra spells), and then as a capstone you get to cast all Cleric spells spontaneously. Also, because text trumps table, you get full casting progression. But there are other options out there that do similar thing. Shadowcraft Mage is an old standby, though Beguilers can't quite get in on schedule. Prestige Domains themselves are quite good, and substitute domain lets you swap them to whatever domain you want. Apprentice (Spellcaster) allows you to swap any spell you know for any other spell of equal or lower level once per Beguiler level -- letting you turn your worthless spells known into good tools like substitute domain. It also lets you get into virtually any PrC with a spell knowledge prerequisite and utilize almost any spell combo. Arcane Disciple is worth noting, but not as nice as Prestige Domains. Knowstones and Runestaves are also good, particularly since you get UMD. Knowstones in particular are pretty nuts in some readings. The UMD example in the PHB establishes that you can use Emulate Class Feature to emulate expending a class feature, and Knowstones include expending the spell slot as part of the cost, so a good enough UMD check gives you at-will spells.

In short, you can build a Beguiler to do almost anything you want. You almost always want a level of Mindbender (because it's free), and you probably want at least one Prestige Domain + substitute domain, but beyond that you can build into almost any PrC. My preferences would be:

Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10 -- This is the best build if you expect the game to go to 16th level. Take Apprentice at 1st level, grabbing substitute domain plus whatever else you want. Finish with whatever you want.
Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 1/Beguiler +1/Shadowcraft Mage 5 -- This is better for shorter games (or if Rainbow Servant is houseruled to lose caster levels). Divine Oracle for a Prestige Domain at no lost casting, the extra Beguiler level to pick up the spell you need for Shadowcraft Mage from Apprentice. You can fill out later levels with other stuff, but if you have time to do that you probably should have gone Rainbow Servant.
Beguiler 5/Divine Oracle 1/Incantatrix 3/Spellwarp Sniper 1/Primal Scholar 5 -- A pet build of mine that is on kind of shaky ground. The idea is that you use Persistent hunter's eye to qualify for Spellwarp Sniper, then use Spellwarped sandblast (obtained via Apprentice) for a no-save ranged touch stun. Primal Scholar is there for the standard unfettered heroism cheese making your no-save stun at-will. Probably wants an extra level or two of Beguiler to pick up unfettered heroism and arcane spellsurge.
Beguiler 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 -- Just a generic "magic Rogue" build. Hinges on the assumption that Unseen Seer gives you Sneak Attack if you don't have it, which is arguably shaky, but IMO valid.

[noce]

I did a water halfling beguiler 19 / shadow adept 1.

Shadow adept because those 3 feats are gold, and because mindbender can break game. I preferred to be better at what the beguiler already does, instead of adding perks.

Feats the usual ones for a beguiler. Every DC booster to ench/ill in the game, obviously.

[Jahjohama]

Thank you all very much for your advice and suggestions.

Cosi - your suggestions caught my eye, particularly the one below. Could you expand on exactly how you would build that character? What feats you would take and when? How would you build the character all the way to lvl 20? Taking which feats and focusing on which skills, and at which level?

"Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10 -- This is the best build if you expect the game to go to 16th level. Take Apprentice at 1st level, grabbing substitute domain plus whatever else you want. Finish with whatever you want."

thank you again for your previous post, it was very thorough and much appreciated.

[Cosi]

What feats you would take and when?

One of the nice things about the Beguiler is that you don't really have many demands on your feats. Obviously you take Apprentice at 1st level, and since you're going Mindbender you take Mindsight at 6th level. Aside from that your feats are open. The traditional option is to take Arcane Disciple a bunch of times, but that's weaker with access to substitute domain (since both give you access to the domains of your god and substitute domain gives more access). As others have noted, DC boosters are good. Shadow Weave Magic is the best. Spell Focus also exists. You can also grab feats for a PrC you plan on taking over the last couple of levels.


How would you build the character all the way to lvl 20? Taking which feats and focusing on which skills, and at which level?

Three possibilities:

Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Dweomerkeeper 4
Feats
For Apprentice, the only real constant is
1st: Apprentice (Spellcaster)
3rd: Extend Spell, or other metamagic feat of choice
6th: Mindsight
9th: Craft Wondrous Item, or other item creation feat of choice
12th: Free Feat, options include Improved Initiative, Obtain Familiar (into Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit) for stupid cheese), other metamagic or item creation feats, Persistent Spell and DMM: Persistent if you can find a god with the Magic domain and a domain that grants turning (easy if you can worship a pantheon), Versatile Spellcaster (arguably allows early entry). You can also take these earlier and move up your metamagic and item creation feats to either 12th or 15th level.
15th: Free Feat, see above Taking which feats and focusing on which skills, and at which level?
18th: Free Feat, see above

This is a pretty simple build, and honestly not all that impressive. You're basically going for the 1/day Supernatural Spell which would allow you to pop out greater effects from miracle at no cost. The big draw is that you get a bunch of free feat slots if you happen to have some cool feat-based combo. Getting into Dweomerkeeper requires you to swap one of your domains to Magic, to have a Metamagic feat and an Item Creation feat, and to have made a magic item. Even a Feather Token counts.

Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Incantatrix 4
Feats
1st: Apprentice (Spellcaster)
3rd: Extend Spell
6th: Mindsight
9th: Iron Will (you can also get this via Otyugh Hole)
12th: Invisible Spell
15th: Sculpt Spell
17th: Persistent Spell [Incantatrix Bonus Feat]
18th: Free Feat
20th: Metamagic Feat [Incantatrix Bonus Feat]

For Apprentice, the only real constant is
Similar to the previous build, except you get Persistent Spell abuse instead of no-XP miracle greater effects. Invisible Spell is there for the interaction with Persistent arcane spellsurge (emulating it with miracle is free, or you could but an item). arcane spellsurge knocks your standard action spells down to a swift action, and your full round action spells down to a standard. Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of full round action spells. Unless you use metamagic on them, and Invisible Spell is +0 adjustment metamagic. Then you also Persist all the buffs you want.

Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Shadow Adept 1
1st: Apprentice (Spellcaster)
3rd: Spell Focus (Illusion)
6th: Mindsight
9th: Shadow Weave Magic
12th: Earth Sense
15th: Heighten Spell
18th: Earth Spell

Standard Shadowcraft Mage build. Cast spontaneously off the Cleric list, the Beguiler list, your three favorite domains, the Sorcerer/Wizard Evocation list, and the Sorcerer/Wizard Conjuration (Creation or Summoning) lists. Oh, and you can swap those domains around. Your Shadow Illusions aren't quite as real as a dedicated Shadowcraft Mage, but you come close.

For skills, I think you can take whatever, once you satisfy Prestige Class prerequisites. I recommend standard Rogue skills (Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Bluff, etc) as you will likely be called upon to fill that role. Note that your magic is pretty good at emulating areas you're lacking here, particularly in stealth. The advantage skills haves is being at-will, so think about what you'll need frequently versus what you can afford to have less access to.

This build doesn't get super much mileage out of Apprentice (particularly since you eventually get substitute domain anyway), but I think it's worth it for amplifying the value of Rainbow Servant at early and mid levels. Pulling out random spells from random domains is a lot of versatility -- I suggest trying to swing the Worship a Pantheon option, and keeping a list of useful spells from your possible domains.

Overall, your role is going to be a lot like a Wizard. You have BFC, save or dies, and a lot of utility. At high level you go absolutely insane though. I recommend looking up obscure Cleric spells that are niche useful. You never know when you're going to need to cast ice axe for some reason.

[gorfnab]

I would probably make a beguiler beguiler
I've done this. It's actually really fun to play.

[Jahjohama]

Wow! Cosi, you have delivered my friend! Many, many thanks for your detailed and thorough explanations on building a beguiler. I am ready and excited to start our campaign, and will be following your advice to the T. Thank you again!

[Seharvepernfan]

If you were making a beguiler, how would you build it?

What race, feats, skills, multiclass, and prestige classes would you take and why?

Beguiler is the ultimate non-lethal face. My race would be human or half-elf (preferably half-elf, if they could get some racial traits to make them on par). Feats would be:
-keen intellect (int is your best stat, will is your best save, and you have the skills on your class list)
-improved initiative (you are fragile and you really want to get your spells working before the enemy)
-spell penetration/greater (you are so dependent on your spells working)
-probably illusion and enchantment focus/greater (your main schools)
Pretty simple choices.
I wouldn't multiclass.
Maybe a dip into mind-bender for telepathy and the mindsight feat, but I'd prefer to be chaotic good.
Int first, 12-14 cha and dex to start with.

Skills are the hardest part, because you have so many choices. As a human with at least +2 int, I'm looking at 9 skills per level to begin with. Bluff, diplomacy, disguise, sense motive, sleight of hand, use magic device, concentration, spellcraft, search (that's 9), I would prioritize disable device and open lock after that, if I had more points. I'm tempted to take some of the movement skills (balance, climb, jump, tumble) and listen/spot/hide/move silently for the sneak-thief aspect, but it largely depends on party role.

[Troacctid]

Obtain Familiar is a really good feat for a Beguiler because familiars share all your skill ranks and you have a LOT of skill ranks.

[Vizzerdrix]

I would probably make a beguiler beguiler

Ive always wanted to do this. Along with a tibbit barbarian, and a hairy spider cleric.

[Grim Reader]

It depends a lot on which level you are playing at.

At low levels, Beguilers are the best of the spontaneous arcane casters, overwhelmingly better than Sorcerers. Their spell list reads pretty much like a "best arcane spells to know" list at low levels. At high levels however, Sorcerers overwhelm them as badly back. Beguilers start to lose traction after 5th level spells, assuming competent spell picks by Sorcerers.

The Beguiler spell list has much less horizontal redundancy than Warmages, but do suffer some vertical redundancy which contributes to the loss of traction vs. the Sorcerer at high levels.

Your primary weak points are lack of spells that target Fortitude, and the inability to spam damage spells. Which has its place sometimes. Good ways to fix this includes one of the Bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium. Necromantic Bloodline gives you some options to attack Fort, and opens up Turn Undead if you need it. Costs you the ability to cast conjuration [healing] spell, meh. Penumbra bloodline gives you the Shadow Conjuration line, albeit that comes online at later levels and overlaps with several spells you already have.

Levels in Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror) lets you pick Fire and Necromancy spells off ANY list. (And also Enchantment and Illusion, but theres not a lot of good spells in those schools you do not have already). This is a good way to broaden your spell selection. (Also get some natural armor and ability score boosts. Including Int)

You can also dip Sand Shaper (Sandstorm). One level gives you a massive number of bonus spells known. It does cost you a caster level, though.

You should not expend resources on domain access, unless you really, really want a spell. You are not a Sorcerer and do not get as much out of it. Complete Divines rule for spontaneous casters that gain access to domains states that you may add a domain spell to your list whenever you have "an option to choose a new spell known". That is basically your Advanced Learnings, and that quickly becomes a heavy price. However, the domain access almost certainly overrides the school limitations on Advanced Learning, so some spells could be worth the cost.

Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine) can be tricky to get past a DM, because there is a discrepancy between text and table, and different language versions of the book has different corrections. And a Beguiler knows all the spells on his or her list, but the capstone of Rainbow Servant is very clear that the spells do not go on your list. It says you may learn them, but the Beguiler is short on ways to learn spells, that is basically Advanced Learning again. Only one of which comes after level 16.

You do get to pick Miracle or Gate I suppose, but its a ten level investment, and your DM may or may not rule Rainbow Servant 6/10 advancement.

[Cosi]

-spell penetration/greater (you are so dependent on your spells working)

This is not really as true as you'd think. You're a minionmancer, so even if your offensive spells are getting SRed away, you still have whatever charmed/Diplomancy'd/dominated allies you've already accumulated. The silent image line of spells are SR:No and guaranteed to waste an action against anything that isn't immune. Also, you can probably get assay spell resistance for less than a feat.


Skills are the hardest part, because you have so many choices. As a human with at least +2 int, I'm looking at 9 skills per level to begin with. Bluff, diplomacy, disguise, sense motive, sleight of hand, use magic device, concentration, spellcraft, search (that's 9), I would prioritize disable device and open lock after that, if I had more points.

At least +2 INT? Unless you're going straight up Elite Array, a caster is almost always getting at least a 16 in their primary stat, and probably better. Also, you absolutely should not be taking Sleight of Hand over Disable Device. One is basically flavor in most cases, the other is a core part of your functionality as a Rogue-type. You should probably get Open Lock on similar grounds.


At high levels however, Sorcerers overwhelm them as badly back. Beguilers start to lose traction after 5th level spells, assuming competent spell picks by Sorcerers.

This is the conventional wisdom, but it is wrong. Even looking at just their spell list, the Beguiler gets greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, true seeing, mind blank, dominate monster, and time stop past 5th. And also a bunch of other spells. Plus Apprentice lets you switch your two least favorite spells at each level out for any spell of the same level, or you're taking a PrC. Plus Advanced Learning (again, or a PrC). A Beguiler that is built anywhere remotely resembling competently has at least the versatility of a Sorcerer.


Levels in Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror) lets you pick Fire and Necromancy spells off ANY list.

At a rate lower than you would get by just taking Beguiler levels and using Apprentice. I guess you get some other minor stuff?


You should not expend resources on domain access. You are not a Sorcerer and do not get as much out of it. Complete Divines rule for spontaneous casters that gain access to domains states that you may add a domain spell to your list whenever you have "an option to choose a new spell known". That is basically your Advanced Learnings.

The Beguiler automatically knows all spells that are available to it ("your spell list is the same as your spells known list"). That extends to Prestige Domains. If it was intended to use the mechanism you suggest, it would have been mentioned explicitly as such because Complete Divine post-dates the existence of the Warmage. Advanced Learning doesn't even work the way your argument needs it to -- it adds new spells to your list, not your spells known. This further supports the thesis that Prestige Domains grant all their spells to Beguilers.


the capstone of Rainbow Servant is very clear that the spells do not go on your list. It says you may learn them, but the Beguiler is short on ways to learn spells, that is basically Advanced Learning again. Only one of which comes after level 16.

No, that's not what it says. It says you "gain access to them". The Beguiler knows all the spells to which it has access. The FAQ corroborates this (ordinarily I wouldn't consider it a good argument to cite the FAQ, but in this case it's clarifying rather than overruling).


You do get to pick Miracle or Gate I suppose, but its a ten level investment, and your DM may or may not rule Rainbow Servant 6/10 advancement.

No you wouldn't. If we accept that "access to" means "only via Advanced Learning", you would not be able to take either miracle or gate, as neither is an Enchantment or Illusion spell.

[Grim Reader]

This is the conventional wisdom, but it is wrong. Even looking at just their spell list, the Beguiler gets greater dispel magic, mass suggestion, true seeing, mind blank, dominate monster, and time stop past 5th. And also a bunch of other spells. Plus Apprentice lets you switch your two least favorite spells at each level out for any spell of the same level, or you're taking a PrC. Plus Advanced Learning (again, or a PrC). A Beguiler that is built anywhere remotely resembling competently has at least the versatility of a Sorcerer.

What does a Beguiler do with Time Stop?

Anyway, Sorcerers get to pick from things like the Celerity Line, Summon Monster, Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Wish, Gate, Genesis, Shapechange, Prismatic Sphere, the Arcane Fusions, Planar Bindings, etc. (Seriously Mass Suggestion? You don't have enough "Will save or lose" spells by then?)

Sorcerers also can take Prcs, and and Advanced Learning is 4 picks of even more enchantment or illusion spells over your career.


At a rate lower than you would get by just taking Beguiler levels and using Apprentice. I guess you get some other minor stuff?

Which Apprentice are we talking about here? I don't really see that the PHB 2 feat is going to let you pick spells off other classes lists. Or give you more than 1 first level bonus spell known, whereas the prc expands the number of spells you know.


The Beguiler automatically knows all spells that are available to it ("your spell list is the same as your spells known list"). That extends to Prestige Domains. If it was intended to use the mechanism you suggest, it would have been mentioned explicitly as such because Complete Divine post-dates the existence of the Warmage. Advanced Learning doesn't even work the way your argument needs it to -- it adds new spells to your list, not your spells known. This further supports the thesis that Prestige Domains grant all their spells to Beguilers.

The actual text is "If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a
domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell." That seems fairly straightforwards to me. You must have the option to choose a new known spell. And then you get to pick a domain spell instead. You could make the argument that you get a domain spell in addition to your pick, although that does not seem to make sense to me, and I don't think it would fly for any class.

The Beguilers "your spell list is the same as your spells known list" does not come into play until the spell is either known or on your list. You must fulfill the condition of at least one of the two.


No, that's not what it says. It says you "gain access to them". The Beguiler knows all the spells to which it has access. The FAQ corroborates this (ordinarily I wouldn't consider it a good argument to cite the FAQ, but in this case it's clarifying rather than overruling).

No. The Beguiler known all the spells on its list, not all it has access to. The actual text is: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists."

The character can specifically learn the spells even though they don't appear on his spell list. They are also cast as divine spells, as opposed to picks from Domain lists which are cast as Arcane spells by spontaneous arcane casters. Now learning spells is something mentioned in the class descriptions of Sorcerers and Wizards, which need a minimum ability score to learn spells, but Beguilers only use the term as a part of Advanced Learning.



No you wouldn't. If we accept that "access to" means "only via Advanced Learning", you would not be able to take either miracle or gate, as neither is an Enchantment or Illusion spell.

Well, I assumed that picking a spell from the domain replaced the normal spell pick (I don't see you getting both after all) , and therefore didn't carry over the limitation on schools. However, it would be within RAW to say that it expands the potential picks to the Domain spells, but that you still have to obey the chool requirement. That would make Domains even worse investments for Beguilers though.

[Deophaun]

At least +2 INT? Unless you're going straight up Elite Array, a caster is almost always getting at least a 16 in their primary stat, and probably better. Also, you absolutely should not be taking Sleight of Hand over Disable Device. One is basically flavor in most cases, the other is a core part of your functionality as a Rogue-type. You should probably get Open Lock on similar grounds.
First, even the Rules Compendium flat out states that Open Lock is a complete waste of a skill. If you want it, put one point in it to get past the untrained part, but don't waste skill points.

Sleight of Hand is really undervalued. It's a good way to shut a caster down by just stealing his spell component pouch or holy symbol, for instance. It's great for intelligence gathering if you have some means of creating a bug (dragoneye rune is a GPS tracker, while a party member's psicrystal makes for a good listening device). It can even substitute for Quick Draw in terms of retrieving any item, not just weapons (not to mention stowing them, which Quick Draw doesn't help with). Finally, if you pick up Master Pickpocket, you can strip someone of their armor as a free action, as in addition to reducing the free-action penalty, MP lets you take anything that isn't in their hands at the time.

Basically, if you have SoH as a class skill, the available skill points, and are looking for something to fill out one of your feats, max invest in SoH and take Master Pickpocket.

[Ramza00]

What character level of play are we talking about? Like we start at X level, and we plan to play Y levels before the game is over?

[Cosi]

What does a Beguiler do with Time Stop?

Same things as anyone else probably. It's not like they can't take Delay Spell.


Anyway, Sorcerers get to pick from things like the Celerity Line, Summon Monster, Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish, Wish, Gate, Genesis, Shapechange, Prismatic Sphere, the Arcane Fusions, Planar Bindings, etc.

The action economy spells are nice, but minions are always going to be better action economy. summon monster is a garbage spell (except maybe something like taking summon monster IV as one of your extra 4th level spells at high level). Taking limited wish as your first 7th level spell means that your only spell of that level costs XP to use. Ditto wish, and to a lesser degree gate. shapechange is good. prismatic sphere is not better than Beguiler 9ths. planar binding is not really a better minionmancy option than what the Beguiler has available.


Which Apprentice are we talking about here? I don't really see that the PHB 2 feat is going to let you pick spells off other classes lists. Or give you more than 1 first level bonus spell known, whereas the prc expands the number of spells you know.

The relevant text is "Each time an apprentice gains another of these levels, he can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows". No restriction there about being from your class. And while it doesn't give you bonus spells known, replacing a spell you won't cast with one you will is really a lot like getting a new spell.


The actual text is "If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell." That seems fairly straightforwards to me. You must have the option to choose a new known spell.

This reading makes Prestige Domains dysfunctional. Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages do not ever choose new known spells. Advanced Learning adds a spell to their list, not to their list of spells known. Your reading makes Prestige Domains entirely non-functional for these classes, one of which (the Wamage) already existed at the times these rules were released. Every relevant piece of text suggests that making spells available to a Beguiler is synonymous with the Beguiler getting those spells as Spells Known.


No. The Beguiler known all the spells on its list, not all it has access to. The actual text is: "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists."

Again, this is a case where it is ambiguous. Except in this case there is explicit clarification from the FAQ that it works for the Beguiler (well, that it works for the Warmage, but the Beguiler uses the same mechanics).


Sleight of Hand is really undervalued. It's a good way to shut a caster down by just stealing his spell component pouch or holy symbol, for instance.

So your plan is to get into melee range with the enemy caster, and then spend an action to do something that is literally incapable of killing him? And you expect this to be more relevant than disarming traps?


It can even substitute for Quick Draw in terms of retrieving any item, not just weapons (not to mention stowing them, which Quick Draw doesn't help with).

Yes, but you only need one rank to do this. Failure just means you get detected, not that you don't draw the item.

[Deophaun]

So your plan is to get into melee range with the enemy caster, and then spend an action to do something that is literally incapable of killing him? And you expect this to be more relevant than disarming traps?
Because spending a free action is absolutely terrible. Yes, I expect to get into melee range with the enemy caster. Because I'm a bloody beguiler and no one is going to see me coming. And I don't care if I kill the caster or not, because what's the caster going to do? Shoot his crossbow at me? Scary.

And I expect this to be more relevant than Opening Locks. It may or may not be more relevant than disarming traps (which I can leave to the party Paladin anyway).

Yes, but you only need one rank to do this. Failure just means you get detected, not that you don't draw the item.
If you can reliably hit a DC 40 with one rank, sure. Otherwise, no.

[Cosi]

Because spending a free action is absolutely terrible. Yes, I expect to get into melee range with the enemy caster. Because I'm a bloody beguiler and no one is going to see me coming. And I don't care if I kill the caster or not, because what's the caster going to do? Shoot his crossbow at me? Scary.

If you're spending a free action, you need to make DC 40. Even if we assume (as is strict RAW) that you can take an infinite number of free actions to retry until you roll a 20 you need +20 to pull this off. That's not trivial, though it is likely better than Open Lock.

But even then, Eschew Materials is a feat, and you'd be dumb not to take it if this is a thing people do.


If you can reliably hit a DC 40 with one rank, sure. Otherwise, no.

That's the "lift a small object" DC. We're talking about palming, which is an opposed check were failure causes you to be detected.

[Deophaun]

If you're spending a free action, you need to make DC 40.
DC 30. Please read my post. Thank you.


But even then, Eschew Materials is a feat, and you'd be dumb not to take it if this is a thing people do.
Why would I be dumb not to take it? This isn't a thing people do. This is a thing I do.

But hey, if casters are now dumb not to take Eschew Materials, then my build has just robbed a feat off every caster we come across. And I can still plant stones with suspended silence on their person. Win!

Also, Eschew Materials does nothing to help divine casters, as it doesn't remove focus requirements.

That's the "lift a small object" DC. We're talking about palming, which is an opposed check were failure causes you to be detected.
No, we're talking about both. Drawing an item would be "lift a small object." That's DC 40 as a free action for your 1 Rank Wonder. And that's the big thing we want.

Palming would be for stowing. And yes, that would be opposed. The problem is, drawing the object again after it's been stowed in that fashion is a Standard action, not a Move. This is not favorable when you're trying to sling six different wands, for example.

[Grim Reader]

Same things as anyone else probably. It's not like they can't take Delay Spell.

I think the most common uses are to buff, heal, summon buddies or get out of dodge. All of which are things the Beguiler list isn't really set up to do. Time Stop is a wonderful force multiplier for your other spells, but the more spells you have that are good to cast during a Time Stop the more you get out of it.



The action economy spells are nice, but minions are always going to be better action economy. summon monster is a garbage spell (except maybe something like taking summon monster IV as one of your extra 4th level spells at high level).

Yeah.. I don't really think the Summon line is exactly garbage, to put it mildly. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook&p=22092940#post22092940) are some basic resources (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List) on them. And the ability to get off more than one spell per action is more than just "nice".


Taking limited wish as your first 7th level spell means that your only spell of that level costs XP to use. Ditto wish, and to a lesser degree gate. shapechange is good. prismatic sphere is not better than Beguiler 9ths. planar binding is not really a better minionmancy option than what the Beguiler has available.

You get a choice between them. Often you will take Limited Wish for Archmage and Supernatural Transformation. However, at that level (7) the Beguiler gets 8 spells that you wouldn't normally waste a pick on. The Sorcerer gets to pick between Arcane Spellsurge, Forcecage, Limited Wish, Summon Monster VII, etc. etc.

The fact is, the Sorcerer lineup is just better at high levels. Way better. Also, at high level much of the Beguilers Minionmancy can be replicated off one spell pick by the Sorcerer. It takes a lot more resources for the Beguiler to replicate Sorcerer picks outside his area of competence.


The relevant text is "Each time an apprentice gains another of these levels, he can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows". No restriction there about being from your class. And while it doesn't give you bonus spells known, replacing a spell you won't cast with one you will is really a lot like getting a new spell.

Thats not ever TO. Assuming that everytime you get the ability to chose a new spell it may be from any list unless its specified that it has to be from your classes spell list isn't going to fly at any table. I'm pretty sure it runs the other way, you only get offlist spells if it is specified.


This reading makes Prestige Domains dysfunctional. Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warmages do not ever choose new known spells. Advanced Learning adds a spell to their list, not to their list of spells known. Your reading makes Prestige Domains entirely non-functional for these classes, one of which (the Wamage) already existed at the times these rules were released. Every relevant piece of text suggests that making spells available to a Beguiler is synonymous with the Beguiler getting those spells as Spells Known.

Prestige Domains are not dysfunctional just because they are less useful to fixed list casters. Unless your definition of functional is "benefits Beguilers more than any other class" There is no reason to assume that Prestige Domains were meant to be more useful to fixed-list casters than anyone else.

Also, they can still be of use to those classes. They are just harder to take advantage of than classes with more ways to learn new spells. All you need is "an option to choose a new known spell." You can use advanced learning, the much maligned Extra Spell, or picks from Prcs, etc.

There is no rule saying that everything has to be better for a Beguiler, and a Beguiler is a strong enough class not to need any extra help.


Again, this is a case where it is ambiguous. Except in this case there is explicit clarification from the FAQ that it works for the Beguiler (well, that it works for the Warmage, but the Beguiler uses the same mechanics).

Yes, but the FAQs are not that good with the rules, this references a different class and extrapolates from a phrase that does not occur in the Beguilers own description. I'd say it does not trump the written rules.

[Cosi]

DC 30. Please read my post. Thank you.

You're missing the -20 "as a free action" penalty. In fairness, I missed the +10 bump to the DC for repeated attempts (and was phrasing the penalty as a DC increase, which is mathematically equivalent, but confusing). So you need to, effectively, make a DC 50 check for this to work. In fairness, you get to keep trying until you roll a 20, so all you really need is a +30 bonus, but that's still a +30 bonus.


Why would I be dumb not to take it? This isn't a thing people do. This is a thing I do.

You think that you're the only person whose going to figure this out? If this works -- and there are a lot more ifs than you seem to think -- lots of people are going to use it, and other people are going to counter it.


No, we're talking about both. Drawing an item would be "lift a small object." That's DC 40 as a free action for your 1 Rank Wonder. And that's the big thing we want.

Wat. Drawing a hidden object is part of the "hiding objects" rules, which are an opposed check. The result of failure is that people see your hidden object. You don't drop it or anything, so in exchange for the "they automatically pass" -20 penalty, you get to draw stuff for free.


Yeah.. I don't really think the Summon line is exactly garbage, to put it mildly. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook&p=22092940#post22092940) are some basic resources (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List) on them. And the ability to get off more than one spell per action is more than just "nice".

You're pulling in monsters half your CR. What the hell is your Summoner Sorcerer going to do when he's asked to defeat a Fire Giant with "your pick of CR 5 monsters"? I don't know, but it's definitely going to be worse than the Beguiler just casting charm monster and getting a new permanent friend. It's not the worst spell in the game. Around 10th level I would definitely pick up summon monster IV to increase the utility of my 4th level slots. But it's really bad unless you invest a lot in it, and even then you're just a sucker's Druid. A Sorcerer gets one spell at a new level. He can't afford to screw around with spells that aren't useful offensively (ironically, the Beguiler can, so summon monster is better for them).


You get a choice between them. Often you will take Limited Wish for Archmage and Supernatural Transformation. However, at that level (7) the Beguiler gets 8 spells that you wouldn't normally waste a pick on. The Sorcerer gets to pick between Arcane Spellsurge, Forcecage, Limited Wish, Summon Monster VII, etc. etc.

The Beguiler gets those two, and gets the six best spells of their list. Comparing your third and fourth picks to those six (and remember you're getting those way later) doesn't look so hot. And once again, spending your only 7th level spell known on something you're not using til next level is not a good plan.


Thats not ever TO. Assuming that everytime you get the ability to chose a new spell it may be from any list unless its specified that it has to be from your classes spell list isn't going to fly at any table. I'm pretty sure it runs the other way, you only get offlist spells if it is specified.

If that were the case, they wouldn't have needed to errata Extra Spell. Restrictions don't magically exist -- like anything else, they must be explicitly declared. If you can point to a general rule that applies here, I will gladly change my tune.


Also, they can still be of use to those classes. They are just harder to take advantage of than classes with more ways to learn new spells. All you need is "an option to choose a new known spell." You can use advanced learning, the much maligned Extra Spell, or picks from Prcs, etc.

No, you can't use Advanced Learning. Read the book. Advanced Learning is not a spell known. It adds a spell to your list. Because that is the mechanism by which Beguilers (and Warmages and Dread Necromancers) get new spells. Seriously, if you actually read the class it becomes very obvious that "when the Beguiler learns spells" means "as soon as it becomes possible to learn them".


Yes, but the FAQs are not that good with the rules, this references a different class and extrapolates from a phrase that does not occur in the Beguilers own description. I'd say it does not trump the written rules.

Of course not. Both the written rules and the FAQ agree -- the Beguiler gets full access to the Cleric list from Rainbow Servant.

[Deophaun]

You're missing the -20 "as a free action" penalty.
I'm missing no such thing. I'll put in another request for you to read my initial post, because you are missing something.

but that's still a +30 bonus.
Not a +30! And actually, it's +29.

You think that you're the only person whose going to figure this out?
Going by how Sleight of Hand is frequently dismissed, I will say yes, I am. Are you currently running most of your casters, PC and NPC, with Eschew Materials? Game's been out how long?

Wat. Drawing a hidden object is part of the "hiding objects" rules
No, it's not. You are not trying to hide an object that's already hidden. You are lifting it. That's a base of DC 20. Your 1 Rank Wonder needs a DC 40 to perform it as a free (the fact that I have repeatedly listed this DC as 40 should also be a hint that you need to re-read my initial post for the DC 30).

BTW, I do keep noticing how your responses continue to get more and more selective as to the cases you are trying to refute. It's a rapid retreat to the keep.

[Troacctid]

No way is the Master Pickpocket plan going to be commonplace. It requires the investment of a feat and a skill that is cross-class for almost everyone (which usually means another feat investment to get it as a cross-class skill). That's a serious opportunity cost.

[Cosi]

Fun fact Deophaun: not everyone has memorized the effects of feats so obscure that they come from setting-specific books without a feats section. Next time, you can just say "Master Pickpocket, which reduces the penalty to -10" in your initial post -- which you notably did not do -- and then avoid this conversation. This is a practice known as "communicating".

In any case, it's sort of irrelevant, as applying Master Pickpocket causes your strategy to not work as it explicitly makes items in hand exempt, which allows any caster to simply hold their spell component pouch or holy symbol and laugh as you fail to do anything effective off your feat and +29 skill check. So I guess the reason people aren't taking Eschew Materials is because your brilliant plan is foiled by the simple expedient of having and using hands.


No, it's not. You are not trying to hide an object that's already hidden. You are lifting it. That's a base of DC 20. Your 1 Rank Wonder needs a DC 40 to perform it as a free (the fact that I have repeatedly listed this DC as 40 should also be a hint that you need to re-read my initial post for the DC 30).

Go read the text. The section describing lifting items (starts with "If you try to take something from another creature") starts after the action for retrieving a hidden item. Since the hidden item is hidden on you, and you are not another creature, that DC does not apply.

[Deophaun]

Fun fact Deophaun: not everyone has memorized the effects of feats so obscure that they come from setting-specific books without a feats section. Next time, you can just say "Master Pickpocket, which reduces the penalty to -10" in your initial post -- which you notably did not do -- and then avoid this conversation. This is a practice known as "communicating".
Communication!

Finally, if you pick up Master Pickpocket, you can strip someone of their armor as a free action, as in addition to reducing the free-action penalty, MP lets you take anything that isn't in their hands at the time.

In any case, it's sort of irrelevant, as applying Master Pickpocket causes your strategy to not work as it explicitly makes items in hand exempt, which allows any caster to simply hold their spell component pouch or holy symbol and laugh as you fail to do anything effective off your feat and +29 skill check. So I guess the reason people aren't taking Eschew Materials is because your brilliant plan is foiled by the simple expedient of having and using hands.
Now, tell me how many of your casters have been doing that?

Go read the text. The section describing lifting items (starts with "If you try to take something from another creature") starts after the action for retrieving a hidden item. Since the hidden item is hidden on you, and you are not another creature, that DC does not apply.

20 Lift a small object from a person
I'm just going to go back to blocking you.

[Troacctid]

In any case, it's sort of irrelevant, as applying Master Pickpocket causes your strategy to not work as it explicitly makes items in hand exempt, which allows any caster to simply hold their spell component pouch or holy symbol and laugh as you fail to do anything effective off your feat and +29 skill check. So I guess the reason people aren't taking Eschew Materials is because your brilliant plan is foiled by the simple expedient of having and using hands.
Important NPCs often carry a stash of consumables, so being able to steal their potions and scrolls and the like is still pretty valuable. It's also just a fun ability to have. I'm a fan, personally.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Are you allowed to commission a customized runestaff to cover spells that Beguiler is lacking?
(My go to choice being a "travel" themed runestaff with stuff like flight and teleportation, or maybe something with some blasting spells like lesser orbs)

It's only DC 20, and Beguilers have UMD as a class skill, so....

That's the first thing I'd want to know before deciding on a Beguiler build.

[Grim Reader]

You're pulling in monsters half your CR. What the hell is your Summoner Sorcerer going to do when he's asked to defeat a Fire Giant with "your pick of CR 5 monsters"? I don't know, but it's definitely going to be worse than the Beguiler just casting charm monster and getting a new permanent friend. It's not the worst spell in the game. Around 10th level I would definitely pick up summon monster IV to increase the utility of my 4th level slots. But it's really bad unless you invest a lot in it, and even then you're just a sucker's Druid. A Sorcerer gets one spell at a new level. He can't afford to screw around with spells that aren't useful offensively.

The primary use for Summon Monster is all the monster abilities you can access through it. Uses as a beatstick or tank are secondary and mostly amount to buying actions. What do you do to defeat a Fire Giant? Well, you could hit its Reflex save, which is far worse than the Will one. (Or its lowest ability score, dexterity, hello Shivering Touch -oh hello Cold Vulnerability too?) or Charm Monster if you want to hit Will. Like I said, most of the Beguiler Minionmancy costs the Sorcerer a spell pick. For the Beguiler to get Shivering Touch is much more work.

Beguilers are not great because they can hit Will saves in many different ways, or because they can charm minions. They are great at low and mid levels because they have a host of effects, illusions, defenses, battlefield control, minionmancy etc and it would take a lot of investment to replicate the whole suite.


The Beguiler gets those two, and gets the six best spells of their list. Comparing your third and fourth picks to those six (and remember you're getting those way later) doesn't look so hot. And once again, spending your only 7th level spell known on something you're not using til next level is not a good plan.

What? The Beguiler gets none of those, and generally very sub-par spells at level 7. Also, you take the spell you feel is best. Limited Wish if you feel the need for a panic button or are ready to transform it, Spellsurge if you want to machinegun, Shadow Conjuration for flexibility, etc.


If that were the case, they wouldn't have needed to errata Extra Spell. Restrictions don't magically exist -- like anything else, they must be explicitly declared. If you can point to a general rule that applies here, I will gladly change my tune.

No, they errata'ed Extra Spell precisely because it had a line that could be interpreted as opening up offlist spells: "Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."


Of course not. Both the written rules and the FAQ agree -- the Beguiler gets full access to the Cleric list from Rainbow Servant.

The written rule says the spells are not added to the characters list, and the FAQ does not even mention Beguilers. (And are generally shaky anyway.)

[Troacctid]

I'd argue that Beguilers "learn" all the spells on their class spell list as soon as they gain access to spells of that level, which means that whenever the Rainbow Servant gains access to a new level of spells, she learns all the Cleric spells of that level, but she wouldn't retroactively learn Cleric spells for all the spell levels she already has access to.

[Cosi]

Communication!

You notice how that post never mentions the size of the bonus, or, the exact thing you were being passive aggressive about? You weren't clear the first time, and then instead of clarifying you tried to score points by being condescending. That's not a smart move, and it works even worse here because once I actually read the text of the feat, I realized it makes your proposed strategy not work.


Now, tell me how many of your casters have been doing that?

How many have not been doing that? Do you specifically track what each NPC is holding? Do you think the answer to that question is going to be anything other than "the thing they need to cast spells" if this trick works for you once?

Also: you didn't give me a bit to quote, but please explain how "draw" and "lift" are synonyms.


Important NPCs often carry a stash of consumables, so being able to steal their potions and scrolls and the like is still pretty valuable. It's also just a fun ability to have. I'm a fan, personally.

You want to spend a feat, a bunch of skill points, and probably an item or something to spend actions in combat stealing things from your opponents? You get that stuff at the end of the fight anyway. Doing it outside combat seems not great, because repeatedly robbing people you interact with socially blind is going to make your life much more difficult.


Are you allowed to commission a customized runestaff to cover spells that Beguiler is lacking?

Runestaves are good. I suggest you look at what you're getting from the rest of your build in concert with what you put on your Runestave.


The primary use for Summon Monster is all the monster abilities you can access through it.

Yes, it's a niche utility spell for multiplying your spells known. It's also notably less necessary for Beguilers, because they have more spells known, and better ways of expanding their list further.


Like I said, most of the Beguiler Minionmancy costs the Sorcerer a spell pick.

If you are ever picking Beguiler spells as a Sorcerer, the Beguiler is beating you super hard. She gets all those spells for free, gets more spells, and gets them as soon as she gets a new level of spells. The only hope the Sorcerer has is that the spells not on the Beguiler list are sufficiently better than the ones on it that it makes up for the Beguiler getting more 3rd level spells known when she gets 3rd level spells than the Sorcerer will ever have between 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells.


For the Beguiler to get Shivering Touch is much more work.

The Sorcerer gives up stinking cloud for shivering touch. The Beguiler gives up hesitate. You tell me which seems like a more expensive cost.


What? The Beguiler gets none of those, and generally very sub-par spells at level 7.

Apprentice, remember? The Beguiler swaps a spell per Beguiler level for any same-level spell in the whole game. It should be noted that the Sorcerer can do that too, but he gets a lot less value out of picking from the Cleric or Druid lists than the Beguiler gets from turning phase door into whatever spell the Sorcerer wanted to take while still getting more 7th level spells at 14th level than the Sorcerer has at 20th.


No, they errata'ed Extra Spell precisely because it had a line that could be interpreted as opening up offlist spells: "Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research."

That's fluff text. If Power Attack had a piece of text that said "Power Attack is often used when fighting Giants", that wouldn't imply it does anything extra against Giants. You're reaching here, and in any case you need to cite some actual rules. So I ask you again: where does it say that the default case for "get an extra spell" is "from your list"? Because if it doesn't say that anywhere, you're simply wrong.


The written rule says the spells are not added to the characters list, and the FAQ does not even mention Beguilers. (And are generally shaky anyway.)

The written rules are ambiguous. The FAQ clarifies them. The FAQ is a poor source to overrule written text, but that's not what's happening here.


I'd argue that Beguilers "learn" all the spells on their class spell list as soon as they gain access to spells of that level, which means that whenever the Rainbow Servant gains access to a new level of spells, she learns all the Cleric spells of that level, but she wouldn't retroactively learn Cleric spells for all the spell levels she already has access to.

So Advanced Learning does nothing? Remember, Advanced Learning very specifically does not grant you the spell as a spell known. It adds it to your list, and it can only add spells of levels you can already cast. If the Beguiler's spell knowledge is one-and-done, Advanced Learning does nothing. I'm not saying it's categorically impossible to have a class feature that does nothing, but I do think that if your interpretation of an ambiguous case results in parts of the class itself being dead rules, it's probably the wrong interpretation.

[Mato]

If you were making a beguiler, how would you build it?I'd start with sorcerer...

And just like that, I got to skip to page 2 where everyone is talking about the sorcerer is better than a beguiler while arguing about how a rainbow servant might better than a summoning sorcerer that can use planar binding to bind elder evils. And it seems like the ones losing the debate have already moved to blocking people and ignoring official sources in favor of their terrible opinions.

Well Jahjo, now you know why most people don't bother asking GitP to help them build anything: It's like asking to be the responsible party in a train wreck. Here, try reading through this and see if it helps you some. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=363.0)

[Cosi]

"Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."


I'd start with sorcerer...

It's often a good idea to start with a character that has a more limited set of options, as the variety of spells available to an optimized Beguiler can be overwhelming.


And just like that, I got to skip to page 2 where everyone is talking about the sorcerer is better than a beguiler

There's one guy whose claiming that, and he's obviously wrong because Beguiler + Apprentice is already better than Sorcerer even without having to take any PrCs, short circuiting his claims about how if you misread things and ignore how the Beguiler functions, Prestige Domains do nothing. Unless you'd like to present the supposed rule that says "a spell" means "from your spell list" unless stated otherwise?


while arguing about how a rainbow servant might better than a summoning sorcerer that can use planar binding to bind elder evils.

planar binding for Elder Evils relies on precisely nothing that is unique to the Sorcerer. A Beguiler who uses a Knowstone or Runestave to gain access to planar binding is just as capable in that area. Conversely, Rainbow Servant only works as well as it does for the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. So yes, if your best argument for the Sorcerer is something the Beguiler can also do, the Beguiler is obviously better. Unless you'd like to point me at some Sorcerer-specific aspect of planar binding abuse? Oh, and preferably one that's better than what any class can do with it (that is: infinite wishes).


And it seems like the ones losing the debate have already moved to blocking people and ignoring official sources in favor of their terrible opinions.

No one involved in the Rainbow Servant debate has mentioned blocking anyone. The FAQ is not, to my knowledge, the opinion of anyone in this thread. Terrible is obviously a subjective claim, but I think reading an ambiguous case as having a class feature of the class itself not do anything is probably more terrible than endorsing the reading of the people who created the content in question.


Well Jahjo, now you know why most people don't bother asking GitP to help them build anything: It's like asking to be the responsible party in a train wreck. Here, try reading through this and see if it helps you some. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=363.0)

Fun Fact: the author of the guide agrees with the exact opinions you were just calling "terrible" with regards to Prestige Domains and Rainbow Servant. Apparently your position is that you shouldn't listen to GitP because we'll tell you to do things that the guides you'll listen to instead will also tell you to do. As far as I can tell, the build advice in the guide is pretty much what I've presented here, except the author didn't know about substitute domain (which clearly works if Prestige Domains do), or Apprentice (the only argument against which is assertion without evidence that "a spell" implies "from your list").

[Troacctid]

Learning a spell isn't inherently restricted to your spell list, but most spellcasting classes include a clause specifically limiting spells they learn to their spell list. As a result, effects like Extra Spell need to include language overriding that restriction in order to allow choosing spells from other lists.

[Cosi]

Learning a spell isn't inherently restricted to your spell list, but most spellcasting classes include a clause specifically limiting spells they learn to their spell list. As a result, effects like Extra Spell need to include language overriding that restriction in order to allow choosing spells from other lists.

Most of the feats a Fighter will gain are Fighter Bonus Feats. Nevertheless, the "Acquiring Feats" section of the PHB does not feel the need to note that a Fighter can explicitly take non-Fighter Bonus Feat feats on level up. Restrictions do not magically transfer, they must be explicitly noted or inherited.

[Troacctid]

Most of the feats a Fighter will gain are Fighter Bonus Feats. Nevertheless, the "Acquiring Feats" section of the PHB does not feel the need to note that a Fighter can explicitly take non-Fighter Bonus Feat feats on level up. Restrictions do not magically transfer, they must be explicitly noted or inherited.
This is actually a laughably poor example because the Fighter's bonus feat ability does in fact feel the need to note that a Fighter can explicitly take non-Fighter Bonus Feat feats on level up. It also clearly denotes that only the bonus feats provided by the class feature have that restriction.

[Cosi]

This is actually a laughably poor example because the Fighter's bonus feat ability does in fact feel the need to note that a Fighter can explicitly take non-Fighter Bonus Feat feats on level up. It also clearly denotes that only the bonus feats provided by the class feature have that restriction.

So a restriction on something applies to everything related to that thing unless the ability notes otherwise? Then what happens when a Monk reaches 9th level? The Monk's bonus feat ability contains no text about being able to take normal feats with his level-up feats, and contains only six items (Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip). He gets three of those as bonus feats, and if your argument is correct, he must select only from the remaining three as feats. What happens when he reaches 9th level and attempts to select a fourth feat?

In any case, we could also talk about the Rogue, who manages to have a class bonus feat that is not from a list, despite the fact that most other classes (possibly every) that grant a bonus feat grants it from a list. That ability reads exactly "A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability." Should we expect that because it is similar to things that have a restriction, it also has that restriction, or is that argument completely absurd?

Alternatively, consider the Knowstone. It does explicitly note that the spell has to be on your list for you to acquire it. If that was the default, why is the text "provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list" part of the item description? Isn't that supposed to be implied?

[Troacctid]

So a restriction on something applies to everything related to that thing unless the ability notes otherwise? Then what happens when a Monk reaches 9th level? The Monk's bonus feat ability contains no text about being able to take normal feats with his level-up feats, and contains only six items (Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip). He gets three of those as bonus feats, and if your argument is correct, he must select only from the remaining three as feats. What happens when he reaches 9th level and attempts to select a fourth feat?
It doesn't say "The monk selects her feats from the following list," does it?


Alternatively, consider the Knowstone. It does explicitly note that the spell has to be on your list for you to acquire it. If that was the default, why is the text "provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list" part of the item description? Isn't that supposed to be implied?
Clarification never hurts.


In any case, we could also talk about the Rogue, who manages to have a class bonus feat that is not from a list, despite the fact that most other classes (possibly every) that grant a bonus feat grants it from a list. That ability reads exactly "A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability." Should we expect that because it is similar to things that have a restriction, it also has that restriction, or is that argument completely absurd?
Look, if you're gonna argue that a spell gained from another source doesn't use the rules for a class's spellcasting ability, fine, but you realize that said spellcasting ability is also what gives you the ability to, for example, cast that spell with your spell slots?

[Cosi]

Another point just occurred to me: restrictions are cumulative. If "from your list" applies unless noted otherwise, it applies to Advanced Learning, because Advanced Learning says "The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know." It does not lift any restriction on only learning spells from your class list. Why do you keep making arguments that are nonsensical in the face of abilities the Beguiler actually has?


It doesn't say "The monk selects her feats from the following list," does it?

Fine, then the Warblade or the Scout. They both use very similar language ("gains" versus "gets"), and they have an explicitly spelled out list rather than a tag, but overall I think you're on pretty thin ground trying to draw a dividing line, and neither have any text that clarifies their restrictions as not being global.


Clarification never hurts.

And I suppose if it didn't have it, that would be because the restriction is so obvious we should all know it was implied. If everything is evidence for your position, nothing is.


Look, if you're gonna argue that a spell gained from another source doesn't use the rules for a class's spellcasting ability, fine, but you realize that said spellcasting ability is also what gives you the ability to, for example, cast that spell with your spell slots?

No, it being a spell known does that. The rules of one ability do not influence another ability unless explicitly stated. Where is the explicit general rule that "a spell" means "from your list"?

[weckar]

Prestige bard (or prestige paladin if you can finagle your way in) are surprisingly solid choices, especially if capping a rainbow serve at build. It basically means more spells, so more options.

[Malimar]

Called upon to build a beguiler, I would probably actually build a beguiler/wizard/ultimate magus. Something about ultimate magus yells "I'm for sorcerers, but beguilers are a more fun way to do it".

[Troacctid]

Another point just occurred to me: restrictions are cumulative. If "from your list" applies unless noted otherwise, it applies to Advanced Learning, because Advanced Learning says "The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know." It does not lift any restriction on only learning spells from your class list. Why do you keep making arguments that are nonsensical in the face of abilities the Beguiler actually has?
Because it names a different list right there in the ability?


Fine, then the Warblade or the Scout. They both use very similar language ("gains" versus "gets"), and they have an explicitly spelled out list rather than a tag, but overall I think you're on pretty thin ground trying to draw a dividing line, and neither have any text that clarifies their restrictions as not being global.
Where are you seeing that either of those classes says you choose your feats from a particular list? I'm looking at the Scout right now and it clearly says that you gain a bonus feat, which must be from the list. The restriction very explicitly only applies to that feat.


No, it being a spell known does that. The rules of one ability do not influence another ability unless explicitly stated. Where is the explicit general rule that "a spell" means "from your list"?
Well RC 139 says that new spells are selected according to the restrictions for your class, which is sort of a general rule, but it just refers you back to each class's specific rule establishing their spell list.

[Cosi]

Prestige bard (or prestige paladin if you can finagle your way in) are surprisingly solid choices, especially if capping a rainbow serve at build. It basically means more spells, so more options.

I'm not super sold on Prestige Bard. Generally, I find losing caster levels is especially bad for spontaneous casters, as they're already behind the curve. Beguilers also already get glibness, and some other good Bard spells. Prestige Paladin is good though. Particularly because it works with Battle Blessing.


Because it names a different list right there in the ability?

So? Your claim is that the restriction "from your list" applies unless that restriction is explicitly lifted. "The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school" doesn't explicitly lift that restriction. If I say "you can only eat vegetables" and then later say "you can only eat foods that are yellow", you can't magically have a banana -- the original restriction applies. If "a spell" doesn't override "from your list", neither does "a sorcerer/wizard spell". That's how restrictions work.


Where are you seeing that either of those classes says you choose your feats from a particular list? I'm looking at the Scout right now and it clearly says that you gain a bonus feat, which must be from the list. The restriction very explicitly only applies to that feat.

What is the difference between the text of the Fighter's bonus feat class feature and the Scout's bonus feat class feature that necessitates the Fighter explicitly note that you can take non-Fighter Bonus Feats at level up, but does not necessitate that the Scout note the same thing? Alternatively, if that allowance is unnecessary, why does the restriction on spells casters learn apply in places the restrictions on feats Fighters take does not?

Here is the text in full of the Fighter class feature:

At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Here is the text of the Scout class feature (the list of feats is omitted):

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level), a scout gains a bonus feat, which must be selected from the following list:

So let's list the differences (excepting the absence of the permission to take regular feats):

The Fighter "gets" a bonus feat, while the Scout "gains" a bonus feat. I don't see this distinction as particularly strong. The Monk "gains" Improved Unarmed Strike, but you rejected the notion that Monks are only allowed to select from their lists of bonus feats, so clearly this can't be the operative distinction.

The Fighter notes specifically that it gains its bonus feat in addition to the ones normally gained at 1st level. The Scout does not. In addition to the obvious reasoning that the Scout doesn't get a bonus feat at 1st level, it should be noted that the Wizard -- whose bonus feat ability, as apposed to the fixed Scribe Scroll bonus feat -- doesn't kick in til 5th level also has the following passage:


These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or Spell Mastery when choosing these feats.

The Fighter gets bonus feats from a list determined by a tag, while the Scout gets bonus feats from a list created explicitly. This argument is weak to begin with, and completely nonsensical once we observe that PrCs such as the Incantatrix and the core Eldritch Knight (who selects from the exact list of feats available to the Fighter) have bonus feats from tag-based lists without the text the Fighter has allowing them to take other feats.

The Fighter is explicitly noted as having to meet prerequisites, while the Scout is not. This difference is either semantically meaningless, or it allows Loremasters to gain Epic Spellcasting as a bonus feat.

In summary, I find no meaningful distinction between the text of the Fighter's Bonus Feat ability and the Scout's Bonus Feat ability. This implies that either the vast majority of presented Scout, Warblade, and Incatatrix builds are illegal, or that you are in fact wrong, and restrictions from other abilities don't apply to the functioning of an ability. It seems to me that we should prefer non-dysfunctional interpretations of the rules, which in this case means not attempting to propagate restrictions to random places in order to limit the power of characters. If you feel Apprentice makes Beguilers too powerful, you can simply ban it.


Well RC 139 says that new spells are selected according to the restrictions for your class, which is sort of a general rule, but it just refers you back to each class's specific rule establishing their spell list.

That's not a general rule. That's a the rule for gaining spells as a result of gaining levels in a class. The only thing it does is clarify that Sorcerers can't use "drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list" to justify getting cure light wounds. The only remotely relevant text is "they never gain spells any other way", which just blanket makes every feat, item, class feature, or other ability that grants characters new spells not work if read literally. Nothing in that passage restricts spell acquisition in general to spells from your list.