Vaati, Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider

[haplot]

Looking through the Monster manual at Aarakocra entry and it says about the Rod of Law (rod of seven parts).

I was going to do a campaign loosely based on the Rod. I've got stats to use for the Rod, but my main issue is the background for it.

Who or what are the Vaati? Are they air elementals or something? I can't seem to find them in any of my books. Have I missed an entry or something?

Also would anyone have stats or can suggest some for the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider please? As it seems they are integral to the Rod's background and I want to use them if possiible.

Many thanks in advance

[Naanomi]

The Vaati were a race or black skinned giants that were exceedingly Lawful and lived mostly on the elemental plane of air. In the very ancient past, before.... most anything, definetly before any of the PC races existed... they almost completely dominated all of the Inner Planes (they probably created thegenie races as servants at that time) and, after struggling to quell some resistance to their rule, got the entirety of existence involved in their war to establish supremacy of Law and eliminate Chaos in all of the Great Wheel.

The Queen of Chaos rose to be the ‘leader’ of the opposition. She is an enormous corpulent Obyrith demon (the older order of demons before tanar’ri, who were created in the later stages of the War of Law and Chaos). Miska was her champion, who held the title of ‘Prince of Demons’ before Demogorgon.

Their war touched every corner of the cosmos, and Law more or less won in the end... but an immensely Pyrrhic victory... the original Baatorians completely disappeared (leaving an empty plane for the Baatezu and Asmodeus to move in), and the Vaati themselves were almost completely eliminated. The few survivors retired to the world of Greyhawk in the valley of Aaqa.

With the Vaati gone and the Queen of Chaos overthrown by the rebelling Tanar’ri; the War ended. The compact of celestials, brokered by angels and guardinals, stopped the fighting among the celestials, but the fiends never really ended the fight... we just call it the Blood War now.

The Rod of Seven parts still seals Miska away; guarded by what remains of the Vaati servants (and the forces of Law in general)... but very few would like to see him released; for fear of reigniting the War of Law and Chaos again to consume all of the Planes again

[Millstone85]

Any of which, as far as I know, has yet to be explained in the current edition.

[haplot]

Thank you very much for the reply.

It certainly helps me a lot. Its very much appreciated.

I can now finalise things.

Thanks again.

[RedMage125]

The Vaati were a race or black skinned giants that were exceedingly Lawful and lived mostly on the elemental plane of air. In the very ancient past, before.... most anything, definetly before any of the PC races existed... they almost completely dominated all of the Inner Planes (they probably created thegenie races as servants at that time) and, after struggling to quell some resistance to their rule, got the entirety of existence involved in their war to establish supremacy of Law and eliminate Chaos in all of the Great Wheel.

The Queen of Chaos rose to be the ‘leader’ of the opposition. She is an enormous corpulent Obyrith demon (the older order of demons before tanar’ri, who were created in the later stages of the War of Law and Chaos). Miska was her champion, who held the title of ‘Prince of Demons’ before Demogorgon.

Their war touched every corner of the cosmos, and Law more or less won in the end... but an immensely Pyrrhic victory... the original Baatorians completely disappeared (leaving an empty plane for the Baatezu and Asmodeus to move in), and the Vaati themselves were almost completely eliminated. The few survivors retired to the world of Greyhawk in the valley of Aaqa.

With the Vaati gone and the Queen of Chaos overthrown by the rebelling Tanar’ri; the War ended. The compact of celestials, brokered by angels and guardinals, stopped the fighting among the celestials, but the fiends never really ended the fight... we just call it the Blood War now.

The Rod of Seven parts still seals Miska away; guarded by what remains of the Vaati servants (and the forces of Law in general)... but very few would like to see him released; for fear of reigniting the War of Law and Chaos again to consume all of the Planes again

Mostly right.

One thing, though...I though Aaqa was the name of their capital? They were referred to as the "Wind Dukes of Aaqa", and their empire stretched across multiple planes. The place on the Material Plane (Greyhawk) where the huge final battle was (and where many of their forces were buried or retired) was the Fields of Pesh. Pretty sure Aaqa itself (or what's left of it) is somewhere in the Plane of Air.

Also more detail...during the war, the seven 'Wandering Dukes' created the Rod of Law. When it was used against Miska the Wolf-Spider (who was often depicted as a humanoid with 3 wolf heads on his shoulders and a spider-like body), it shattered into the Rod of Seven Parts. The parts of the Rod themselves are all in sequentially-increasing size (3 inch piece attaches to the 5 inch piece, which attaches to the 7 inch piece, etc.). Each piece can be used like a magic compass to find the next-largest piece. So if you have found the 12-inch piece, you're only going to be able to find the 14-inch piece. If any pieces are attached wrong (try to stick the 3 inch piece to the 7, for example), both will separate and be flung far away.

Here's the kicker...when the Rod is fully assembled, it also possesses the power to use Resurrection...once. When that it done, the rod again shatters and the pieces separate and spread all over the world (basically, they're Dragonballs). So...I don't think there's any lore about Miska being "sealed away", or any danger of him returning. Not in official lore, anyway.

[Naanomi]

They were only called The Wind Dukes of Aaqa after they were mostly dead and retired to the Vale of Aaqa on Greyhawk. The possibility of using it to free/ressurect/re-empower Miska is hinted at in the actual Rod of Seven Parts adventure path; and in the Douglas Niles novel.

And yes, most of all that is drawn from 2e sources; supplemented by 3e Fiendish Codex stuff

[Nifft]

Greyhawk in the valley of Aaqa.


retired to the Vale of Aaqa on Greyhawk.

Do you recall roughly where that location was on the map?

Was it in the Flanaesse or one of the less-mapped areas?

[Naanomi]

Do you recall roughly where that location was on the map?

Was it in the Flanaesse or one of the less-mapped areas?
Good question, I don’t recall it was ever officially placed. ‘Surrounded by mountains’; ‘A well kept secret’; ‘Accessible only by flight and Astral portals, teleportation impossible’... I’ll poke around to see if I can find more specifics

[Nifft]

Good question, I don’t recall it was ever officially placed. ‘Surrounded by mountains’; ‘A well kept secret’; ‘Accessible only by flight and Astral portals, teleportation impossible’... I’ll poke around to see if I can find more specifics

Thanks!

I did some poking but couldn't find anything relevant.

[Naanomi]

Thanks!

I did some poking but couldn't find anything relevant.
Re-reading some old modules, it seems like it overlooks Diamond Lake at a distance, which puts it somewhere in the Cairn Hills northeast of Greyhawk itself?

[Nifft]

Re-reading some old modules, it seems like it overlooks Diamond Lake at a distance, which puts it somewhere in the Cairn Hills northeast of Greyhawk itself?

Ooo nice, thanks!

So like this area:

https://preview.ibb.co/iyyxke/Screen_Shot_2018_08_07_at_2_10_31_PM.png (https://ibb.co/jbYmdz)

Which modules, if you don't mind?

I might have some of them.

[Naanomi]

Which modules, if you don't mind?

I might have some of them.
I don't know much of Greyhawk really, but I do see Diamond Lake on there so I guess so.

Age of Worms mostly, but some from the Rod of Seven Parts Boxed Set

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

If I were a person who was interested in this topic, I would do some googling for answers in Afroakuma's various planar questions threads over in the 3.X forum. I might also post something in the AD&D forum, if there's still an active community over there. Most of the information you'll find here is going to come from the Fiendish Codex I, a 3.X book, and the 2E Planescape sourcebooks and adventures.

[haplot]

I'd have to say you guys and gals are chuffing amazing!

Thank you so much for your replies.

Definitely appreciated.

[ZenBear]

I'm an avid youtube consumer, so when I saw this thread's title I immediately thought of VaatiVidya (https://www.youtube.com/user/VaatiVidya/featured) and Hello Future Me (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFQMO-YL87u-6Rt8hIVsRjA) who is always going on about his pet cat Supreme Leader Mishka (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOy527BoYoI). That was a highly specific subject for the giggle fit I just had.

[RedMage125]

They were only called The Wind Dukes of Aaqa after they were mostly dead and retired to the Vale of Aaqa on Greyhawk. The possibility of using it to free/ressurect/re-empower Miska is hinted at in the actual Rod of Seven Parts adventure path; and in the Douglas Niles novel.

And yes, most of all that is drawn from 2e sources; supplemented by 3e Fiendish Codex stuff


Good question, I don’t recall it was ever officially placed. ‘Surrounded by mountains’; ‘A well kept secret’; ‘Accessible only by flight and Astral portals, teleportation impossible’... I’ll poke around to see if I can find more specifics


I don't know much of Greyhawk really, but I do see Diamond Lake on there so I guess so.

Age of Worms mostly, but some from the Rod of Seven Parts Boxed Set

Couldn't find anything on Aaqa. Except that it is mentioned in Oriental Adventures as being a valley on the Prime.

I am, however, very familiar with the Age of Worms, having run it twice, most recently last year. Aaqa's location is never mentioned. The Fields of Pesh, however, are. They are some hundreds of miles northeast of Diamond Lake, not far from the Rift Canyon, with White Plume Mountain visible in the distance. This is in the module "A Gathering of Winds".

HOWEVER, since this is a 5e forum, it is worth noting that the Aarakocra entry says that Aaqa is on the Elemental Plane of Air.

So...that's canon, for 5e.

[Naanomi]

The Rod of Seven Parts boxed set doesn’t set a location for Aaqa specifically, but does state it overlooks the Fields of Pesh, which (combined with age of worms) places it pretty firmly.

And yes, Oriental adventures also tried to place it in the Adribandha mountains. It is like the Rock of Bral, writers have placed it many places because they don’t care about existing cannon

[RedMage125]

The Rod of Seven Parts boxed set doesn’t set a location for Aaqa specifically, but does state it overlooks the Fields of Pesh, which (combined with age of worms) places it pretty firmly.


The Fields of Pesh are on the other side of the Nyr Dyv from Diamond Lake. There is no place that overlooks both.

And again 5e lore does say it's on the plane of Air.

[Naanomi]

The Fields of Pesh are on the other side of the Nyr Dyv from Diamond Lake. There is no place that overlooks both.

And again 5e lore does say it's on the plane of Air.
Fair enough; I freely ignore 5e lore in favor of what seems richer or may make a better story; especially when details are sparse one-line Easter egg references to what is a vast body of written work to be inspired by.

The MM fluff information, in particular, seems to be a lot of info based on what people and scholars believe about monsters rather than definite truths. Asmodeus claiming he invented Yugoloth as a mere servitor race with the help of the Night Hags (rather than being a legitimate integral Fiend race spawned by an unfathomably ancient Primordial Evil) seems to be a classic Devil propaganda job for example

[RedMage125]

Fair enough; I freely ignore 5e lore in favor of what seems richer or may make a better story; especially when details are sparse one-line Easter egg references to what is a vast body of written work to be inspired by.

The MM fluff information, in particular, seems to be a lot of info based on what people and scholars believe about monsters rather than definite truths. Asmodeus claiming he invented Yugoloth as a mere servitor race with the help of the Night Hags (rather than being a legitimate integral Fiend race spawned by an unfathomably ancient Primordial Evil) seems to be a classic Devil propaganda job for example

I'm gonna look through some of my old digital records to verify what you've said. I have a bunch of really old D&D stuff on a hard drive somewhere.

But TBH, this is the first I've ever heard that Aaqa was a place on the Prime. I've always been made to understand that the "Wind Dukes of Aaqa" was how they were referred to across the planes, which sort of implies that Aaqa is their capital. The idea that their society would be named after a city that they founded during the twilight of their empire on the surface of one of their satellite worlds seems silly to me. No one called them "The Wind Dukes of Pesh".

Also remembered something as I was typing this. You cited the Age of Worms as one of the more detailed sources of lore. I am very familiar with this adventure path. And I just distinctly remembered that the lore there says that aside from burying the dead, and leaving behind disciples and half-breeds (druidic Order of the Storm), the Wind Dukes up and LEFT the Prime after the War. Source adventures: The Whispering Cairn, A Gathering of Winds, The Library of Last Resort, Kings of the Rift.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

From Afroakuma's original Planar Questions thread: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14575611&postcount=856)


The Queen of Chaos is one of the obyriths, the ancient demon race of the Abyss. Not as old as some such as Dagon, Dwiergus and Pale Night, she is nonetheless among the greatest and most influential of this insane group.

In the Age Before Ages, there was a powerful race known as the vaati, or Wind Dukes. Lords of Law, they conquered the four Elemental Planes and expanded their empire across the Prime Material Plane. As they encroached on more and more territory, entities of Chaos grew aware of them, and determined to destroy these bringers of order. The obyriths brought chaos to the Inner Planes, the heart of the vaati empires, and the vaati reached out to the beings of Law across the Outer Planes in response.

...

The Queen's great tanar'ri champion was Miska the Wolf-Spider, a powerful being who had been shaped personally by the Queen of Chaos to spawn races of spyder-fiends and embody a power nearly as great as that of the obyriths themselves. She bestowed upon Miska the title Prince of Demons and sent him forth to the wars on the Material Plane against the Wind Dukes, for the forces involved had come to understand that that battlefield would be crucial to ultimate victory.

It was on the Material Plane that an artifact was brought forth against Miska, whose power overwhelmed the Wind Dukes: the Rod of Seven Parts, designed solely to destroy the champion of chaos. It failed in its task, tainted by Miska's chaotic energies, but the wound it struck caused a rift which banished Miska to a planar prison, and the Rod itself scattered to prevent its being used as a key to release him.

...

The Wind Dukes lost most of their numbers in that final battle, and their power left the Inner Planes; now, the survivors are few there, and not many more reside in the Outer Planes. Instead, the remaining community bases itself in a small valley on Oerth; after millennia, it has yet to recover even a fraction of the size of the once-great empire of the vaati.

Oriental Adventures (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20011019a) puts them on the Prime after their decimation. I believe the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set for 2E does as well.

[Naanomi]

Their monster manual entry: “Most of the remaining vaati live in the Vale of Aaqa, a secluded valley ringed with protective mountains. The valley is completely sealed to all means of transit except flight. Teleportation is ineffective, though there are several gates to the Astral plane. The valley’s exact location is a well-kept secret.” doesn’t sound like a place on the Inner Planes at all to me.

In the end, the lore isn’t exactly clear; inferences need to be made. It is possible Aaqa is the name of their original capital; and they named their new home on the Prime after their old place. It could be that the association with Aaqa came when they moved to the Prime, their old name ‘Vaati’ Forgotten or intentionally hidden (they had... still have... a lot of enemies; lots of reason to stay hidden); Though there is a bit more evidence that they were called Wind Dukes before. Or maybe something else.

If you go looking for more sources; the Rod of Seven Parts novel has good stuff in it

[Ronnocius]

Their monster manual entry: “Most of the remaining vaati live in the Vale of Aaqa, a secluded valley ringed with protective mountains. The valley is completely sealed to all means of transit except flight. Teleportation is ineffective, though there are several gates to the Astral plane. The valley’s exact location is a well-kept secret.” doesn’t sound like a place on the Inner Planes at all to me.

In the end, the lore isn’t exactly clear; inferences need to be made. It is possible Aaqa is the name of their original capital; and they named their new home on the Prime after their old place. It could be that the association with Aaqa came when they moved to the Prime, their old name ‘Vaati’ Forgotten or intentionally hidden (they had... still have... a lot of enemies; lots of reason to stay hidden); Though there is a bit more evidence that they were called Wind Dukes before. Or maybe something else.

If you go looking for more sources; the Rod of Seven Parts novel has good stuff in it

As said before the 5th edition lore on the matter is placing Aaqa on the Elemental Plane of Air. It does appear that this could be a change from past editions. In general as far as I know 5th edition has not given much detail on the vaati, Wind Dukes of Aaqa, Miska the Wolf Spider, or the Queen of Chaos aside from the mentions in the aarakocra Monster Manual entry so you would have to heavily borrow from other sources or just make up your own details if you want to run an adventure involving these topics.

From Dungeon Master's Guide page 53:
Here and there among the Labyrinth Winds are hidden realms reachable only by following a particular sequence of flowing winds, and thus largely protected against attackers. One such realm is fabled Aaqa, a shining domain of silver spires and verdant gardens atop a fertile earth mote. The Wind Dukes of Aaqa are dedicated to law and good, and they maintain a vigilant watch against the depredations of elemental evil and the encroachment of the Elemental Chaos. They are served by aarakocra and a little-known race called the vaati.

[Naanomi]

That really throws the existing lore in the trash, making the Wind Dukes aligned with Good; and separating them from the Vaati somehow

[haplot]

Thanks everyone for replying.

Your insights truely are amazingly brilliant, as always.

I find it strange that they've altered the lore for 5e.

Thanks again folks.

[Malifice]

The Vaati were a race or black skinned giants that were exceedingly Lawful and lived mostly on the elemental plane of air. In the very ancient past, before.... most anything, definetly before any of the PC races existed... they almost completely dominated all of the Inner Planes (they probably created thegenie races as servants at that time) and, after struggling to quell some resistance to their rule, got the entirety of existence involved in their war to establish supremacy of Law and eliminate Chaos in all of the Great Wheel.

The Queen of Chaos rose to be the ‘leader’ of the opposition. She is an enormous corpulent Obyrith demon (the older order of demons before tanar’ri, who were created in the later stages of the War of Law and Chaos). Miska was her champion, who held the title of ‘Prince of Demons’ before Demogorgon.

Their war touched every corner of the cosmos, and Law more or less won in the end... but an immensely Pyrrhic victory... the original Baatorians completely disappeared (leaving an empty plane for the Baatezu and Asmodeus to move in), and the Vaati themselves were almost completely eliminated. The few survivors retired to the world of Greyhawk in the valley of Aaqa.

With the Vaati gone and the Queen of Chaos overthrown by the rebelling Tanar’ri; the War ended. The compact of celestials, brokered by angels and guardinals, stopped the fighting among the celestials, but the fiends never really ended the fight... we just call it the Blood War now.

The Rod of Seven parts still seals Miska away; guarded by what remains of the Vaati servants (and the forces of Law in general)... but very few would like to see him released; for fear of reigniting the War of Law and Chaos again to consume all of the Planes again

Age of Worms runs with this as part of a parallel story line. You plunder a few Wind Duke tombs (and find one part of the rod).

[DanyBallon]

Regarding 5e lore and previous edition lore, I’m a bit torn...
I greatly enjoy the created in previous edition as its gives you the impression that the world is old and that there is much more going around.
While at the same time I can understand the decision they made in 5e to disregard part of the previous lore, or to oversimplify it. Let me explain; if you consider that in 4e the setting called «Point of Light», the emphasis was more about a smalls areas where the adventurers start their career and explore the world as they set foot farther and farther. This gave the DM more flexibility for world building, and giving small bits, incomplete or unverified information about foreign people, distant places or events, just help spark DM’s imagination, without constraining them to a specific lore.

I think the tried to do the same in 5e, as it is less daunting to new players and DM. Even the SCAG is vague enough so someone new can take this book and run a FR game completely different from another DM.

That’s why I feel torn between the design flexibility the 5e entries allows and the great lore we got from the previous editions.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think the tried to do the same in 5e, as it is less daunting to new players and DM. Even the SCAG is vague enough so someone new can take this book and run a FR game completely different from another DM.

That’s why I feel torn between the design flexibility the 5e entries allows and the great lore we got from the previous editions.

Agreed, but I don't think they're necessarily in tension. As you say, SCAG is pretty vague. And while the lore changes in the DMG are there, they aren't exactly woven into a setting that's inescapable. So it seems to me they're a good foundation for a DM who wants to build a world but not a cosmology. Meanwhile, if you want to run a full Planescape game, the old Planescape books are still out there to be used.

[Naanomi]

I don’t mind in a lot of cases; and of course the designers are not beholden to old stuff (nor are people playing beholden to any of it). I’m OK with beholder lifecycle changes, political shifts in Hell, even the restructuring of the Inner Planes (after all, it wouldn’t be the first time). I’ll even swollow Asmodeus as a God, even though I don’t like it personally. But...

I don’t like changes that ‘ruin’ larger existing structures like...
- Yugoloth are from Gehenna, made by night hags... ruining the symmetry of the Outsider races, even when you are readopting the Great Wheel when such stuff matters more

I also do not like arbitrary changes on Tiny ‘Easter egg’ level references, like...
-The Wind Dukes were Good, and were not the Vaati

[Ronnocius]

I don’t mind in a lot of cases; and of course the designers are not beholden to old stuff (nor are people playing beholden to any of it). I’m OK with beholder lifecycle changes, political shifts in Hell, even the restructuring of the Inner Planes (after all, it wouldn’t be the first time). I’ll even swollow Asmodeus as a God, even though I don’t like it personally. But...

I don’t like changes that ‘ruin’ larger existing structures like...
- Yugoloth are from Gehenna, made by night hags... ruining the symmetry of the Outsider races, even when you are readopting the Great Wheel when such stuff matters more

I also do not like arbitrary changes on Tiny ‘Easter egg’ level references, like...
-The Wind Dukes were Good, and were not the Vaati

It is actually said in the Monster Manual aarakocra entry that the Wind Dukes of Aaqa 'come from a race of elemental beings called the vaati' (I am paraphrasing). It seems to me like the Wind Dukes are simply vaati nobles or something similar, and the vaati who are not Wind Dukes serve them. At least that is my takeaway.

[Naanomi]

It is actually said in the Monster Manual aarakocra entry that the Wind Dukes of Aaqa 'come from a race of elemental beings called the vaati' (I am paraphrasing). It seems to me like the Wind Dukes are simply vaati nobles or something similar, and the vaati who are not Wind Dukes serve them. At least that is my takeaway.
Maybe. Historically they had a complex caste system with seven (or arguably 8) complex roles in society