[PF] Advise Me On: Gestalt Synthesist|Ninja

[ezekielraiden]

It's looking like I might actually get to play the character concept that's been a-buzz in my brain for some weeks now, so I figure I should turn to you lovely people to get advice on how to do it well. First, the theme, e.g. why I care about this unusual gestalt mix in the first place.
A half-elf and trained archaeologist, Orendil Mythwyn, youngest son of a prominent elf wizard, a real nerd's nerd, who stumbled into powerful magic (his Summoner abilities) on a dig. Think Dr. Daniel Jackson from the film Stargate (and the first season or two of the show): weedy, weak, ill-suited to hard labor, but a true academic and actually pretty good at the diplomacy thing, too. On a Yixing temple dig in Tian Xia, he finds an ancient metal disk, which speaks to him. Long ago--maybe thousands of years--when the temple was new, a benevolent draconal was called to the world to stop a horrible shira's predation on the local people. Exactly evenly matched, eventually the draconal, with help from mortal mages, made the ultimate sacrifice, to be bound in eternal combat with the shira, in an extradimensional space bound to the disk.

Classic story, right? Well, nobody ever talks about the aftermath of this story--nobody ever considers that spending "eternity" fighting may just make you wear out. Eventually, the shira decided that keeping on fighting wasn't worth it anymore, so it "threw" the fight in a way that meant the draconal killed it...exactly as the evil spirit intended. Its enemy would be trapped forever, alone, unable to escape--what better way to die than to have such sweet revenge? That was a long time ago, and the draconal is shocked at the opportunity to potentially escape its prison when Orendil finds it. They form a pact, enabling the outsider to partially bond with him--it can't fully return into the world at large, but it can get some freedom and actually DO things. This grants Orendil increased physical power and accelerated learning of magical techniques. There is, however, the shira's lingering influence...which also manifests, as his newfound ninja abilities!

So Orendil adventures out in the world, righting wrongs, protecting innocents, etc., bringing his spirit more into line with the dragon's. The spiritual magic acts as a catalyst for his arcane potential, and he manifests a Figment+Sage Familiar, a little blot of the good dragon-spirit's essence detached from his body, dispensing wisdom. As he continues his learning, he works to master the esoteric secrets of creating Wondrous Items like the disk, hoping to find a way to set the spirit free. He has come to Cheliax, ostensibly to do archaeological work in the ruined sections of Westcrown, but really intending to help right wrongs and maybe even bring down the diabolist regime.
For short: Imagine Iron Man crossed with Dr. Strange, or Batman crossed with Doctor Fate. Ninja abilities for combat and base skills, Eidolon for nifty passive effects and even more skills, Summoner spells for spice, delicious, delicious spice. The Iron Man/gadget side of Batman stuff coming from Craft Wondrous Item. (One of the other people is playing a Blacksmith from Spheres of Might, so we'll be teaming up to craft things.)

In raw mechanical terms:
I apologize if the formatting is weird on this, I don't know if there's a "proper" formatting.

Orendil Mythwyn
NG Half-elf Unchained Summoner(Synthesist*)|Unchained Ninja*(Scout, Onibawan)

Ability scores are on a 20 point buy. I'm thinking the following:
Str 8
Dex 7
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 20 (18+2)

Traits: Fate's Favored, Spark of Creation, Reactionary
Drawback: Naive

We are getting a LOT of bonus feats. Two extra feats at first level, and 1 additional extra feat at 4/8/12/16/20. Limit of only 1 "Extra <feature>" feat per 5 levels. Plus, Weapon finesse is treated as an item property, so that's another one I don't have to pick up. I could use advice on feat choices!

1st: Skill Focus Knowledge(Planes) (Half-elf), Extra Evolution, ???, ???
3rd: Craft Wondrous Item
4th: Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) (for familiar)
Higher levels: As many Extra Evolutions as I can fit, while still grabbing the good stuff.

Eidolon: Agathion. It's a good baseline, and perfectly fits the flavor I'm going for--the draconal is a good, spiritual dragon. Not sure if I should take Quadruped or Biped. I'm planning to use weapons (wakizashi, maybe a katana if I can get an effortless lace), so I won't be taking too many natural attacks. Is Pounce still worth it as an Unchained Summoner, once I qualify?

Half-elf chosen both for FCB (+1/4 evo point) and Adaptability (automatically qualfied for Eldritch Heritage). DM has confirmed that we only get one FCB per character level, but with the TON of bonus feats on offer, that's not really a problem. Since I'll be taking Skilled evolutions to pick up fat racial skill bonuses, I'm trading Keen Senses for something else (very strongly considering Fey Magic, would welcome advice as to what spells to pick up).

*GM has given the go-ahead on both using the Synthesist with the Unchained Summoner class, and the 3rd party Unchained Ninja. Standard Scout archetype still works (replacing Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge at exactly the same levels), Onibawan is a 3rd party archetype for the Unchained Ninja (doesn't touch UD).
Looking for advice on Eidolon evolutions and feats mostly, but spell recommendations and other commentary will be welcome. The general premise--Summoner|Ninja that crafts wondrous items and gets a familiar--is locked in, but the details can shift around.

[Andor13]

Well, if 3rd party stuff is okay then Daisho Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/daisho-expertise-combat/) and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/) seem like no brainers. Although you may not need Daisho Expertise depending on if your GM is eliminating Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite with his changes.

[ezekielraiden]

Well, if 3rd party stuff is okay then Daisho Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/daisho-expertise-combat/) and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/) seem like no brainers. Although you may not need Daisho Expertise depending on if your GM is eliminating Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite with his changes.

Yeah, I'm definitely eyeing Daisho Expertise now. The DM has ruled that the automatic Finesse the Unchained Ninja receives can be either swapped out for any other talent in the Equipment Sphere (from Spheres of Might), or counted as the improved version of the Finesse Fighting talent: "If taken a second time, whenever you make an attack using your Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and your Strength bonus on melee damage rolls, you may also add 1/2 your base attack bonus (minimum 1) as a bonus on that damage roll." Which will almost certainly end up better in the long run, since I can still benefit from good Str but get up to +7 damage per attack. (Pretty sure it's better than Huge as a weapon-user, other than Reach as a Biped, but saving 6 points for other purposes is probably worth it.) Thanks for the suggestion though, I hadn't seen Daisho Expertise yet.

Do you (or does anyone) think it would be worth it to take relatively cheap natural attacks like Tail Slap or Tentacle, to add more Sneak Attack chances? Is Huge still worthwhile, especially if I'm mostly relying on weapons?

[Lotheb]

Mechanically natural attacks are usually a good deal with sneak attack as long as you can get sneak attack on full attacks. (Unchained summoners get greater invisibility, but not till 10th level) And check with your that his finnesse houserules let you use natural weapons with your dex (normal weapon finnesse does).

[ezekielraiden]

Mechanically natural attacks are usually a good deal with sneak attack as long as you can get sneak attack on full attacks. (Unchained summoners get greater invisibility, but not till 10th level) And check with your that his finnesse houserules let you use natural weapons with your dex (normal weapon finnesse does).

I'll probably skip learning Greater Invis, because Ninja gives me Vanishing Trick initially and Invisible Blade at 10th level (10 rounds of Invis, upgrading to greater, for 1 ki point). That combined with Pounce (assuming I take Quadruped) and the Scout archetype (which guarantees sneak attacks when you move more than 10' in a round) should do well for keeping me always sneak-attacking. Will check with DM about the natural attacks thing. Thanks!

Edit:
Perhaps it would be good to ask focused questions.

1. What spells are good choices to grab with Fey Magic? The DM has said we probably won't leave Cheliax, so as long as I pick a terrain generally prevalent there, I should be good. I could potentially take options I intend to only/mostly use for crafting, but I'm not sure how effective that would be.

2. Minor and Major Magic are now very good, since the cantrip is unlimited and the 1st level spell is 1/2 your rogue level times per day. What are the best 0th and 1st level Wizard spells to swipe with them?

3. Are there any ways people know of to get one single spell from another class's list? I'd really like to not be dependent on wands of Keep Watch if I don't have to, but I kinda need them to have my Eidolon suit on long enough to qualify for feats and such.

[Andor13]

3. Are there any ways people know of to get one single spell from another class's list? I'd really like to not be dependent on wands of Keep Watch if I don't have to, but I kinda need them to have my Eidolon suit on long enough to qualify for feats and such.

Given that you only need to cast it once a day, it should be cheap enough to just buy or make a Wondrous Item that casts it once a day, bonus points if you make it a magical cup of espresso, or a statue of a Red Bull.

[grarrrg]

3. Are there any ways people know of to get one single spell from another class's list? I'd really like to not be dependent on wands of Keep Watch if I don't have to, but I kinda need them to have my Eidolon suit on long enough to qualify for feats and such.

A Wand or such of Keep Watch should be fine for how often you'll need it.
For other general purposes, have an off-list spell guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296803-Pathfinder-mini-guide-Casting-spells-from-other-lists)

[ezekielraiden]

Given that you only need to cast it once a day, it should be cheap enough to just buy or make a Wondrous Item that casts it once a day, bonus points if you make it a magical cup of espresso, or a statue of a Red Bull.

I love it! I always like just a *little* humor in games, keeps things from getting too serious (which I am wont to do). I'll run it by the DM.

[ezekielraiden]

Does anyone have any tips for the Eidolon side of things? I'm afraid most Summoner guides are painfully out of date now, and few address the specific needs of the Synthesist...especially in the context of gestalt. E.g. should I do biped (easier, gets automatic reach) or quadruped (have to give it arms, but it gets Pounce)? Since I'm using weapons, should I bother getting any natural attacks, or is that a waste of time? Etc.

[grarrrg]

should I do biped (easier, gets automatic reach) or quadruped (have to give it arms, but it gets Pounce)?
Go Quad for Pounce.
Since you're pretty set on Scout-archetype, it'd be kinda stupid to NOT go for Pounce.


Since I'm using weapons, should I bother getting any natural attacks, or is that a waste of time? Etc.

Yes get Naturals, but there is a "but" in there.
Adding Naturals won't interfere with your Manufactured-Weapon attacks, so it's a cheap way to potentially add extra gobs of Sneak dice damage.

BUT
Unchained Eidolons have this little gem: "Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum."
(It should more accurately read "This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to use per round at the given level." Strictly as written there are issues)

The Max Attacks limit starts at 3, and tops out at 7.
I'm assuming 3 of those will be with your Katana (or whatever), so you could easily add 4 more Naturals to that.
Quads start with a Bite, and you can add 2 Claw attacks (on feet) for just 1 Evo-point. After that, a Tentacle is the cheapest way to add another attack, otherwise you'd need Tail>Slap, or Wing>Buffet, or more Arms, or...

[Lotheb]

Edit: ignore this forgot your level 1 feat
Do note that you won't have enough evolution points to actually get arms until level 2, but you can just stick with nat weapons for combat and take off your dragon suit when you need to pick a lock or shake hands

[grarrrg]

Do note that you won't have enough evolution points to actually get arms until level 2

Proposed build includes Extra Evolution at 1st, so Arms (and ONLY Arms) at level 1 is an option.

[Jack_Simth]

1. What spells are good choices to grab with Fey Magic? The DM has said we probably won't leave Cheliax, so as long as I pick a terrain generally prevalent there, I should be good. I could potentially take options I intend to only/mostly use for crafting, but I'm not sure how effective that would be.

2. Minor and Major Magic are now very good, since the cantrip is unlimited and the 1st level spell is 1/2 your rogue level times per day. What are the best 0th and 1st level Wizard spells to swipe with them?

3. Are there any ways people know of to get one single spell from another class's list? I'd really like to not be dependent on wands of Keep Watch if I don't have to, but I kinda need them to have my Eidolon suit on long enough to qualify for feats and such.

1st level spell to grab? Blood Money. Especially as a Synthesist, your Eidolon will give you a lot of strength to burn, and Purified Calling will fix up the damage cheaply.

As to single spells: Use Magic Device and a Page of Spell Knowledge (Arcane) will do you well for 1k for a 1st level spell. Alternately: Keep Watch is a Sor/Wiz spell, so your answer to 3 may be 2.

[ezekielraiden]

Go Quad for Pounce.
Since you're pretty set on Scout-archetype, it'd be kinda stupid to NOT go for Pounce.

Every guide I could find suggested the Scout as a strong choice, which is part of why I'm doing it. It does work very nicely with Pounce.


Yes get Naturals, but there is a "but" in there.
Adding Naturals won't interfere with your Manufactured-Weapon attacks, so it's a cheap way to potentially add extra gobs of Sneak dice damage. <snip>

Thanks for the explanation--I totally missed that the attack limit applies to both manufactured and natural attacks. I may get a tentacle and fluff it as a prehensile tail.


Edit: ignore this forgot your level 1 feat
Do note that you won't have enough evolution points to actually get arms until level 2, but you can just stick with nat weapons for combat and take off your dragon suit when you need to pick a lock or shake hands

No prob--I appreciate having extra eyes looking over things whether or not something changes as a result. :)


1st level spell to grab? Blood Money. Especially as a Synthesist, your Eidolon will give you a lot of strength to burn, and Purified Calling will fix up the damage cheaply.

As to single spells: Use Magic Device and a Page of Spell Knowledge (Arcane) will do you well for 1k for a 1st level spell. Alternately: Keep Watch is a Sor/Wiz spell, so your answer to 3 may be 2.

Blood Money is interesting, I'll keep that in mind. I will definitely be making use of Pages of Spell Knowledge, as I'll be doing Wondrous Item crafting (with help from another party member).

Thanks again, everyone, for your help.

[ezekielraiden]

Since I can only get one FCB (which will always be Half-elf Summoner), what do people think of taking Deific Obedience and Evangelist on the Ninja side? I'm considering asking the DM if I can tweak the Torag devotion, because the fluff doesn't make any sense for the character, but the boons very much reflect his story. (Possibly use Apsu's fluff, but Torag's boons? They're very similar gods.)

[Lotheb]

If you're confident the game will see play at level 14+ the 10% discount on crafting items is prolly worth delaying your ninja abilities by 1 level. Other than that getting Glyph of Warding 1/day without the material component cost (since you get it as a spell like ability) has potential for stockpiling bomb boxes, or fortifying a base. The bonus to saves against magic items seems like crap since most magic items have low save DC's, and the bonus to hit with warhammers will be wasted if you dont use a hammer, but for just a +1 it's prolly not worth it to spend resources to make a warhammer a finnesse weapon.
Bonus to AC is nice, extra languages known and bonus to untrained skill checks is eh.
Spiritual form is decent (mostly for the untyped +4 to an ability score) but prolly not worth activating in combat by the time you get it (level 16). I think temporary additional attacks (like the natural weapon Spiritual Form can grant, or haste) should stack past the Eidolon's max attacks limit as long as it's not active when you assign the Eidolon's evolution points, but if not gills could be useful at some point (by level 16 you should have a better flight option than 40' good for up to 10 min/day)

Yeah prolly worthwhile unless you expect to play extensively at 20th level, in which case Hidden Master is pretty cool