OOTS #1133 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[TRH]

It's definitely good to see Durkon chipper again.

[knag]

Ever the optimist, Durkon! Hope they grab that ash before Hilgya scatters it...

[Alaska Fan]

Excellent summation of the problem.

[hroþila]

But Durkon, by discussing it before it happens you're totally jinxing it! Back to Elan with you! Wait, that would mean he does get resurrected. Now I understand Nale.

[TheTinyMan]

There's way too much talk of this being the queue leading to the afterlife, a part of me is terrified that it's nothing of the sort!

To say nothing of the terror I feel regarding the Resurrection...

[hamishspence]

I like Durkon's optimism here.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hopefully it’s not misplaced.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

That 7th panel got me. Classic Durkon, in the best sense.

Minrah was "warned" by Hilgya about Durkon, and this seems to contrast nicely with that "warning". Hmmm...


Hilgya: Be careful with Durkon, he's a pig.
Minrah: But he seemed nice to me.
Hilgya: I said STAY OUT of his way. He's min-- I mean, he's mean!

:smallbiggrin:

[Tarthalion]

I think Durkon has been reading the forums...

Anyway, he clearly will accept a resurrection, despite dying with honor, so that's one question answered, not that there was ever any real doubt.

[DCR]

There's that contagious Elan optimism! Good on ya Durkon, not even letting death get you down!

[Lvl 2 Expert]

{Scrubbed}

[woweedd]

How may clerics in this world can even cast Resurrection without a corpse? Anyway, it's nice to see Durkon happy. It's also notable that, despite having just died an honorable death, technically twice, he's still willing to go back for the sake of saving the world, in spite of the personal risk. A true dwarf, through-and-through. Let's hope Elan's Law Of Probability works!

[StyxMotors]

Great to see Durkon & Minrah still playing a part in this story. And, of course, I'm *really* enjoying the quick drumbeat of new pages! Thanks, Giant

[BaronOfHell]

I love that moment when Minrah smiles at what Durkon says.

[warmachine]

Yep. When a dire crisis suddenly shows up out of nowhere and all you do is whack some vampire spawn before being crushed by higher level characters, that's still answering the call to battle when it's most needed. Revolutions have been built on such courage.

[woweedd]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote.}
Didn't he recently complete a lot of the Kickstarter rewards? I'm guessing that's the reason.

[Shining Wrath]

"Dinnae get ta spend much time talkin' ta Elan, then?" is perhaps the funniest line ever delivered by Durkon.

"Dinnae get much more distinguish'd than tha." is Durkon at his finest, dispensing encouragement and wisdom.

And we now know that Durkon will answer the call if resurrected, not that there was much doubt. The man who never gives up will not give up the Order's quest, even at the risk of his immortal soul becoming a toy of Hel. He is who he is.

[denthor]

Didn't get much time talking to Elan then.

Cute line

[Dausuul]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

[dmc91356]

I've officially spent too much time reading OOTS. All I was thinking about when reading Minrah's lines was that Elan would firmly disagree. Then Durkon goes and says what he says . . .

[137beth]

Good job, Durkon, keep reminding us of how unlikely it is for you to come back in order to increase the chance that you will come back!

[woweedd]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.
I wouldn't describe Roy's situation as "a bit of trouble". It formed the plot of an entire book, whereas i'm betting that Durkon will be resurrected by the end of this one. I'm tempted to take Andi's stipend, but it's not enough on it's own, I don't think.

[2.5 cats]

{Scrubbed}

[Shining Wrath]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

I can think of five dwarves who owe Durkon's mom everything they have plus quite a bit more, and who therefore might be willing to help out, especially with the fate of the world at stake. Also, Hilgya wants to have words with Durkon (if only so she can kill him herself), and we know she got quite a bit of money from bankrupting her own clan for revenge.

[ProfLucario]

{Scrubbed}

[knag]

Any speculation on the tower? Valhalla? Bureaucratic Deva HQ? One of Xykon's secret hideouts?

In Norse myth Valhalla is described as a "hall", as in a viking longhouse, with the shields of the fallen for the roof. Could be I tower, I suppose, but I don't think that's where they are.

[Tarthalion]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

I'm hoping it doesn't take as long as Roy. Sure, it would probably be anticlimactic for him to be raised absolutely immediately, but I don't see it taking 222 strips.

[woweedd]

I can think of five dwarves who owe Durkon's mom everything they have plus quite a bit more, and who therefore might be willing to help out, especially with the fate of the world at stake. Also, Hilgya wants to have words with Durkon (if only so she can kill him herself), and we know she got quite a bit of money from bankrupting her own clan for revenge.
That would be amazingly sweet. Kinda a "pay-it-forward" thing, I like it. Plus, it can finally give us the scene i've been hoping for ever since we met Sidgi: Durkon reuniting with her after years spent in Human lands. It's that, and him possibly running into his father in the afterlife. It'd be nice to see a good father show in this comic for once.


I'm hoping it doesn't take as long as Roy. Sure, it would probably be anticlimactic for him to be raised absolutely immediately, but I'm hoping it won't take 222 strips.
Fun fact: When he was resurrected, Roy had been dead for a third of the comic up to that point.

[Rogan]

Anybody else reading the title and waiting for a 'speak with dead' or something like that?

[DaOldeWolf]

Tower? :smallconfused:

Where are they going? Could it be something about dwarf procedure? So many questions that need answering.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How may clerics in this world can even cast Resurrection without a corpse?

The ash counts as a corpse, for the purposes of the lowest level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) that can be used on former undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm).


Tower? :smallconfused:

Where are they going? Could it be something about dwarf procedure? So many questions that need answering.
Patience, Iago, patience

Grey Wolf

[johnbragg]

How may clerics in this world can even cast Resurrection without a corpse?

For Resurrection (7th level), all you need is the ashes, or any piece of the corpse at all. Which is why Durkon is worried about them remembering to grab some ashes, and why a poster or two was worried about what a vengeful Hilgya might do to the ashes.

EDIT: Ninja'd--but only once. Not bad.

EDIT 2: If something does happen to the ashes, Durkon will need a 9th level True Resurrection, which doesn't require remains.

[Tarthalion]

Fun fact: When he was resurrected, Roy had been dead for a third of the comic up to that point.
Even now, he was dead for almost a fifth of the entire online comic.

[woweedd]

The ash counts as a corpse, for the purposes of the lowest level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) that can be used on former undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm).


Patience, Iago, patience

Grey Wolf

Huh. Neat. I suspected as much, but it's nice to have confirmation. Also, why Jafar?

[Coyote0715]

It doesn't appear like Minrah will be rejoining them, even if she is called.

[johnbragg]

It doesn't appear like Minrah will be rejoining them, even if she is called.

She's willing--there's evil to fight, and she doesn't sound like she's had her fill of stopping evil.

[Dr.Zero]

I love that moment when Minrah smiles at what Durkon says.

She smiled and stopped! I suspect that when Hilgya feared Minrha might have been the next gf of Durkon, she might have been not so far from truth. Just a bit too early on time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, why Jafar?

I just love the line - the cadence of it - when counseling to just give something time.

Grey Wolf

[Resileaf]

Glad to see that good old Durkon will not abandon his friends to remain in Valhalla.

However, the portrayal of his apparent afterlife worries me. It's too dark, and too empty, and the mention of a tower feels off somehow.

I wonder if this will lead to another battle for Durkon and Minrah to overcome.

[Shining Wrath]

She smiled and stopped! I suspect that when Hilgya feared Minrha might have been the next gf of Durkon, she might have been not so far from truth. Just a bit too early on time.

We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven.

RELEASE ... THE SHIPPING!

[woweedd]

It doesn't appear like Minrah will be rejoining them, even if she is called.
I'm pretty sure she'd come back, given the opportunity. She just doesn't have much hope of it, since, unless you're an adventure, gaining access to a high-level Cleric AND powdered diamonds is pretty hard. If you're an adventurer, you can just have your friendly neighborhood Wizard pop over the Plane of Earth, and grab a diamond the size of a grapefruit.


I just love the line - the cadence of it - when counseling to just give something time.

Grey Wolf
Personally, I prefer "Slow down, Maurice!"

[Coyote0715]

She's willing--there's evil to fight, and she doesn't sound like she's had her fill of stopping evil.

She may be willing, but she does say what are YOU going to do, not WE. I hope we find out soon. I would like to see her back.

[factotum]

However, the portrayal of his apparent afterlife worries me. It's too dark, and too empty, and the mention of a tower feels off somehow.


One could possibly assume that Durkon's afterlife destination was messed around with by him having been a vampire, but then why would Minrah be there? I don't think there's another shoe to drop here--this is definitely where dwarves who die in combat end up, which is supposed to be a good place.

[woweedd]

We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven.

RELEASE ... THE SHIPPING!
A. Valhalla.
B. I'm pretty sure Minrah is considerably younger then him. I'd eyeball her at late-20s,early-30s, whereas he's in his early-50s. Granted, those don't mean the same thing for a dwarf as they would for a human, and they're in the same Age Category, but still.
EDIT: I was wrong, OK?

One could possibly assume that Durkon's afterlife destination was messed around with by him having been a vampire, but then why would Minrah be there? I don't think there's another shoe to drop here--this is definitely where dwarves who die in combat end up, which is supposed to be a good place.

Possibly this is the area where Hel and Thor judge the dead? Assuming Hel's still allowed, which, given she just tried to overthrow the Head of the Pantheon, she might not be.

[hroþila]

However, the portrayal of his apparent afterlife worries me. It's too dark, and too empty, and the mention of a tower feels off somehow.

I wonder if this will lead to another battle for Durkon and Minrah to overcome.
OK, wild guess. I'm not sure I actually believe this but... the tower might be Niflheim or the entrance to it or be built on top of it like with Dorukan's dungeon or whatever. The bet gave Hel dominion over all dwarves, with an exception for honorable ones (which of course ended up being the majority of them). The two times we've seen Hel and Thor argue, they were in Niflheim. Perhaps she gets all the souls by default and Thor has to go there to claim his. Perhaps, no matter how clear-cut a case is (and Durkon and Minrah's cases are clear-cut), that's where they're sent at first.

If so, we might get a scene with Thor and perhaps Hel next.

[DaggerPen]

Huh. Seems weird that no deva or anything has come for them this far. I know Roy did spend a bit talking to his father before the deva showed up, but it still felt... better manned? Is something else going on up there right now?

[Crisis21]

We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven.

RELEASE ... THE SHIPPING!

No! Bad shipping! Bad! Go sit in the corner!

[woweedd]

Huh. Seems weird that no deva or anything has come for them this far. I know Roy did spend a bit talking to his father before the deva showed up, but it still felt... better manned? Is something else going on up there right now?
As mentioned earlier, this is possibly the site where Hel and Thor judge the dead's...death. THEN they go the Deva, or something else, depending on Minrah's professed Alignment.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. Seems weird that no deva or anything has come for them this far. I know Roy did spend a bit talking to his father before the deva showed up, but it still felt... better manned? Is something else going on up there right now?

There is also the conspicuous absence of every other ex-vampirized dwarven soul. Why is it only Minrah and Durkon? Where is Cindy?

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

A. Valhalla.
B. I'm petty sure Minrah is considerably younger then him. I'd eyeball her at late-20s,early-30s, whereas he's in his early-50s. Granted, those don't mean the same thing for a dwarf as they would for a human, and they're in the same Age Category, but still.

She's got class levels, while having lived in dwarf town (and not fought evil more dangerous than kobolds). A dwarf fighter (she was a fighter first) starts at 40 + 5d6 years of age (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm).

Despite appearances, she's probably about his age - within a decade or or so. Compare Hilgya, who we know is about Durkon's age.

They have 60 or 70 years of youth left.

[SilverCacaobean]

Good to see Durkon both optimistic and ready to rejoin the fight.

However... something's very wrong there. Why are they alone? This vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) died just a few moments before Minrah did and she's nowhere to be seen. Maybe Durkon will meet Odin to have things explained to him? But why is Minrah there?

I also expect that there 'll be at least some trouble before Durkon gets resurrected. Not a book's worth of trouble like Roy but still.

[Keltest]

There is also the conspicuous absence of every other ex-vampirized dwarven soul. Why is it only Minrah and Durkon? Where is Cindy?

Grey Wolf

Which one was Cindy?

[drazen]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

They knocked off a whole bunch of frost giants. Presumably they picked up some cash from them?

The real problem might be that Durkon had the last of the diamond dust before being vampirized (he was using it to try to resurrect Girard's followers, unsuccessfully), and we have no idea where it is right now (unless it's addressed in a bonus strip in the print version of BRitF that I'm unaware of). Would the vampire spirit have opted to ditch it? Also, Durkon's ash, so... is he going to be short on equipment? (though he did change into robes)

The only person who can Resurrect Durkon right now is probably Hilgya. Everyone thinks she'll be mad, but once Roy tells her about his honorable death, she'd probably be more than happy to bring him back so that he hopefully goes to Hel someday. Not sure how he'll feel when the spell tells him a CE/CN is the person bringing him back, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Personally, I prefer "Slow down, Maurice!"

Some people might say that there is no accounting for taste, but on this, you, sir, are objectively wrong.:smalltongue:
kidding!
Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

Hey, wait a minute.

We know that traditionally Valhalla features battle all day, and feasting all night. If Durkon and Minrah passed the Gates of Hel (because, obviously, honorable deaths) and went straight to Valhalla, they may just walk right into a battle at the tower. And then, after glorious combat smacking other dwarves around (I just hope they don't do shirts and skins, that would be unfair), they enter the tower for an honorable feast.

Also, who says they get judged by a deva? They may be welcomed to the battle by something rather different.

https://youtu.be/GGU1P6lBW6Q

[Shining Wrath]

Which one was Cindy?

I think Ponchella. Who was (1) Human in appearance and (2) Wanna-be evil even before she got vamped.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which one was Cindy?

The one who'd have needed a poncho to go on a date with Greg.

And yes, human, maybe went elsewhere. But there are plenty of other dwarves that just got released from vampire captivity that I'd expect to see here with Durkon.


Also, who says they get judged by a deva?

That's Durkon. I mean, I know he's been away for a bit, but I'd think you'd still recognise him.

If they have auto-passed Hel's gauntlet, then by the general rule, they go to be judged at the plane they believe to belong to. Durkon being LG, that'd be devas. If they are instead in Thor's realm, it might be the CG equivalent. Either way, yes, something is off, because the characters just remarked that something is odd.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I think Ponchella. Who was (1) Human in appearance and (2) Wanna-be evil even before she got vamped.

At the rate things are going, were going to need an index of unofficial character nicknames used on the forums.


The one who'd have needed a poncho to go on a date with Greg.

Oh. Then why would she necessarily be in the same place as Durkon? We don't know she was Lawful Good when alive. We don't even know if she was either of those.

[Crisis21]

At the rate things are going, were going to need an index of unofficial character nicknames used on the forums.


Are you saying we don't already have one?

[Anarion]

Durkon’s showing off the wisdom he acquired from traveling with the Order. Even the weird crazy bardic wisdom. I love it. :smallbiggrin:

[The MunchKING]

See he's talking about Elan's theories on probability, I was thinking at first that he meant Elan would be Genre-Aware enough to take care of all the details for a plot-critical thing like the resurrection of the Important Member of the Team.

[knag]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

200 gp per crewperson probably isn't the whole 10,000 gp kitty for Durkon's resurrection. Twenty-three crewmembers have been shown in-panel (not counting Julio, Fidel or Lakaita), which would make the total 4,600. So figure they need to scrounge up 5,000 gp.

[Onyavar]

It doesn't appear like Minrah will be rejoining them, even if she is called.
If every dwarf gets to be in Valhalla after their honorable death - why should Minrah take the chance to get back to life and perhaps die a dishonorable one? There is not so much at stake for her than for Durkon.


We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven.
Nope, Valhalla. I already spotted at least one ninja, but still.


There is also the conspicuous absence of every other ex-vampirized dwarven soul. Why is it only Minrah and Durkon? Where is Cindy?
Grey Wolf
Some other Vampires may be of different race (humans and gnomes have different procedures than dwarves) and/or alignment (civilian dwarves; the Creed of Stone looks rather neutral, and the "Ponchula" host had suppressed a certain evil side). Only the absence of Brother Sandstone and his clerical colleages is strange, but either the Giant forgot to include them here, or there is a story reason.
For example, probably there is just a bit of distance between where they were slain, and the banquet hall, coupled with the assumption that distances and vectors in Valhalla work more or less the same than on the Prima Material.

[Shining Wrath]

The one who'd have needed a poncho to go on a date with Greg.



That's Durkon. I mean, I know he's been away for a bit, but I'd think you'd still recognise him.

If they have auto-passed Hel's gauntlet, then by the general rule, they go to be judged at the plane they believe to belong to. Durkon being LG, that'd be devas. If they are instead in Thor's realm, it might be the CG equivalent. Either way, yes, something is off, because the characters just remarked that something is odd.

Grey Wolf

The belief that LG human souls of the Northern Pantheon undergo exactly the same process as LG dwarven souls of the Northern Pantheon is not proven. The bet may have implications even on the Outer Planes, even after judgment.

Also, Roy's mom had a boyfriend, Roy's grandfather was able to take him fishing, and so on; so, like the movie What Dreams May Come, there may be an ability for each soul to create the afterlife they expect and want, within certain parameters. Dwarven souls would have different expectations about how they were judged and what Celestia would be like than human ones. We saw no non-humans in Roy's afterlife that I recall, except for the drow that showed up with the evil adventuring party and got archon'd upon, who hardly counts. Dwarven expectations might be sufficiently different than human ones to put them in a different place.

[ratfox]

Yay! Looking forward to see the afterlife system for dwarves. Hilariously different, I suspect :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

A. Valhalla.
B. I'm pretty sure Minrah is considerably younger then him. I'd eyeball her at late-20s,early-30s, whereas he's in his early-50s. Granted, those don't mean the same thing for a dwarf as they would for a human,

Yeah, I was going to say. If she's in her late 20s/early 30s, then she's not legally an adult yet, and I don't think she's that young.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We saw no non-humans in Roy's afterlife that I recall

A hobbit climbing the mountain, and what is likely a dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

And I repeat: plenty of dwarven souls just got released from vampire jail. You'd think at least some of them might have been LG? Given dwarven society, that does not seem like an unreasonable assumption to me? The spell casting ones, if nothing else, used to be clerics of Thor.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of this being Hel. Sorry to contradict you, Minrah.

[Keltest]

A hobbit climbing the mountain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

And I repeat: plenty of dwarven souls just got released from vampire jail. You'd think at least some of them might have been LG? Given dwarven society, that does not seem like an unreasonable assumption to me? The spell casting ones, if nothing else, used to be clerics of Thor.

Grey Wolf

Maybe they walked off somewhere. The timetable on how long Greg was fuming over those memories incoherently is not especially clear.

I could maybe see Durkon being treated differently due to both his triumph over Greg and his role in protecting the Gates, but Minrah's presence complicates that train of thought significantly.

[Morquard]

I think this is some secret Demi-plane that Thor pulled them both to on death, where they'll meet with him and maybe Loki, to receive some vital information for the future.

Is Divine Intervention a thing? Could he sent both of them back even without a resurrection spell?

[woweedd]

Yeah, I was going to say. If she's in her late 20s/early 30s, then she's not legally an adult yet, and I don't think she's that young.
Yeah, I was wrong. Mea culpa. My understanding of D&D Dwarf age categories is spotty at best.

[Morquard]

200 gp per crewperson probably isn't the whole 10,000 gp kitty for Durkon's resurrection. Twenty-three crewmembers have been shown in-panel (not counting Julio, Fidel or Lakaita), which would make the total 4,600. So figure they need to scrounge up 5,000 gp.

In the same strip Roy says they'll likely earn the money back from a random encounter long before they need it. And voila 20 strips later they run into a tribe of Frost Giants. You bet that Haley looted them, right?

[Lkctgo]

I hope Durkon doesn't get judged on the basis of his Vampire's actions. Or worse, that he died without honour as he let himself die, so Hel get's to torture him before he's resurrected.

[Shining Wrath]

A hobbit climbing the mountain, and what is likely a dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)

And I repeat: plenty of dwarven souls just got released from vampire jail. You'd think at least some of them might have been LG? Given dwarven society, that does not seem like an unreasonable assumption to me? The spell casting ones, if nothing else, used to be clerics of Thor.

Grey Wolf

I just finished going back and looking, and I think that may be a dwarf off to the right in the same sequence. Point conceded.


Maybe they walked off somewhere. The timetable on how long Greg was fuming over those memories incoherently is not especially clear.

I could maybe see Durkon being treated differently due to both his triumph over Greg and his role in protecting the Gates, but Minrah's presence complicates that train of thought significantly.

It appears, based on both your observation and Grey Wolf's, that indeed Durkon and Minrah are receiving some sort of special treatment in the hereafter. When Roy died the first person he saw was Eugene, who was trapped out there due to the Blood Oath. That Durkon and Minrah see only each other might imply that they have some sort of relationship as well.

[Peelee]

However... something's very wrong there. Why are they alone? This vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1126.html) died just a few moments before Minrah did and she's nowhere to be seen. Maybe Durkon will meet Odin to have things explained to him? But why is Minrah there?


\But there are plenty of other dwarves that just got released from vampire captivity that I'd expect to see here with Durkon.

We didn't see how the other dwarves were vamped, though. The Stone of Creed was taken by surprise, and the gang arrived in the mountains at night. Which strongly suggests that a good number of the vamped dwarves were having good day, got their lives hijacked, and after being freed of that torment, got to finally move on to their afterlife. Of Hel.

That's where I'm putting my gold, at least.

[woweedd]

I hope Durkon doesn't get judged on the basis of his Vampire's actions. Or worse, that he died without honour as he let himself die, so Hel get's to torture him before he's resurrected.
Assuming Hel's even still allowed to do that, which i'd doubt, Saying he died without honor is simply wrong. His case is open-and-shut. Not to mention, he technically died in the desert at the pyramid, fighting against Malack to save a friend, also a clearly honorable death. As for holding the vampire's action against him...Why?

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I think this is some secret Demi-plane that Thor pulled them both to on death, where they'll meet with him and maybe Loki, to receive some vital information for the future.

Is Divine Intervention a thing? Could he sent both of them back even without a resurrection spell?

I like this theory. The fact that they are alone could be a clue. As Grey Wolf pointed out, many dwarves died not so long ago and their souls are not there. Maybe they were sent someplace else (which, I might add, is a democracy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html)).

[Shining Wrath]

We didn't see how the other dwarves were vamped, though. The Stone of Creed was taken by surprise, and the gang arrived in the mountains at night. Which strongly suggests that a good number of the vamped dwarves were having good day, got their lives hijacked, and after being freed of that torment, got to finally move on to their afterlife. Of Hel.

That's where I'm putting my gold, at least.

It'd be one Hel of a Catch-22, but if a vampire Dominates a person into submitting to a fatal bite - I suppose Hel would argue that they didn't die fighting. And we don't know exactly how they slew the majority; the only one we see fighting to the end is Brother Sandstone.

[Peelee]

It'd be one Hel of a Catch-22, but if a vampire Dominates a person into submitting to a fatal bite - I suppose Hel would argue that they didn't die fighting. And we don't know exactly how they slew the majority; the only one we see fighting to the end is Brother Sandstone.

It would indeed, but the Dwarven system sucks to begin with, so it wouldn't surprise me. Sandstone is a definite outlier, and does suggest at least some fell in battle.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Considering that Brother Sandstone and the dwarves dusted with him have been dead for a few hours at this point, they're probably already in the tower being processed. Or past the tower.

Cindy Ponchula, being a human who worshiped Elemental Earth, is going to be somewhere else.

Alignment doesn't matter. Durkon and Minrah are both clerics, so they will be evaluated on if they were acceptable servants of their deity (Thor). If so, they become part of the staff at his home in Valhalla on Ysgard.

[Derian]

I'm hoping that Durkon gets to meet Thor, and that despite all the jokes at Thor's expense in the strip, that Thor shows that he's a worthwhile god to worship.

But I'm thinking that something bizarre will happen first. Perhaps a battle in the afterlife? Maybe Hel has another part to her plan, or the afterlife processing is suspended until the Godsmoot is done with.

[Shining Wrath]

Considering that Brother Sandstone and the dwarves dusted with him have been dead for a few hours at this point, they're probably already in the tower being processed. Or past the tower.

Cindy Ponchula, being a human who worshiped Elemental Earth, is going to be somewhere else.

Alignment doesn't matter. Durkon and Minrah are both clerics, so they will be evaluated on if they were acceptable servants of their deity (Thor). If so, they become part of the staff at his home in Valhalla on Ysgard.

Many of the vampires just slain in the hall were presumably dwarves from the battle with Sandstone. When DurkonT teleported out of the Godmoot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1019.html), he had 3 minions - Ex-Exarch, Ponchella, and one so far unnicknamed. In the big battle there were at least 3 additional clerics and a host of spawn. Those 7 or 8 or 9 people all died within the last minute. It's a bit much to ask that none of the dwarves were Lawful Good, even if we know Ponchella was likely on the not-really-good-in-their-heart list.

[factotum]

If every dwarf gets to be in Valhalla after their honorable death - why should Minrah take the chance to get back to life and perhaps die a dishonorable one? There is not so much at stake for her than for Durkon.

I'd say she has as much reason for wanting to come back as Durkon does--I'm sure she wants to see the world saved as much as anyone. Plus, she might have family who she'd miss if she stayed dead.

[woweedd]

I'd say she has as much reason for wanting to come back as Durkon does--I'm sure she wants to see the world saved as much as anyone. Plus, she might have family who she'd miss if she stayed dead.
Plus, she seems to love fighting Evil, so the odds are she's gonna die doing that anyway.

[JumboWheat01]

I don't know if listening to the bard's wild ideas, thoughts and plans is the smartest thing or the dumbest thing, but it's still true one way or the other.

[woweedd]

I don't know if listening to the bard's wild ideas, thoughts and plans is the smartest thing or the dumbest thing, but it's still true one way or the other.
Hey, say what you will about Elan, but when it comes to narrative and genre conventions, he's a freaking savant.

[Ghosty]

They knocked off a whole bunch of frost giants. Presumably they picked up some cash from them?

The real problem might be that Durkon had the last of the diamond dust before being vampirized (he was using it to try to resurrect Girard's followers, unsuccessfully), and we have no idea where it is right now (unless it's addressed in a bonus strip in the print version of BRitF that I'm unaware of). Would the vampire spirit have opted to ditch it?...

I think Durkon/Greg's diamond dust that the Order was saving, got used up to make all of those Symbol spells that Greg trapped the banquet hall with. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm
"Material Component Mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp each."

It's troubling that this level of Celestia is so empty. I expect we'll find out why when the two of them get to the tower.

As to who can Rez Durkon, isn't there a priest for either the Thor or Odin Temples still around in Firmament? IIRC, weren't Minrah's group just the night shift for their temple, and the elders of the Temple were already off shift?

[Rogar Demonblud]

We know one high level cleric besides Hilgya is there: Dvalin's high priest. That's probably a Chekov's Dwarf right now.

[Peelee]

We know one high level cleric besides Hilgya is there: Dvalin's high priest. That's probably a Chekov's Dwarf right now.

Dvalin's high priest is at the Godsmoot?

[Rogar Demonblud]

He was going to go to Firmament to conduct the vote with the Council. All others would be sequestered, per the HPoO.

[Stabbey]

But Durkon, by discussing it before it happens you're totally jinxing it! Back to Elan with you! Wait, that would mean he does get resurrected. Now I understand Nale.

I don't think that really qualifies as a plan, it had way too many "If"'s in it. And it also doesn't qualify as a plan because Durkon has no influence in whether it gets accomplished or not.



Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

True, but that was also before the frost giant encounter, and it was also predicated on needing a caster who would insist on payment.

[Mr_Ratatosk]

I just want to go on the record and predict that Minrah is brought back to life first. It'll cost less, and take less effort to find someone willing/able to do it.

I wonder what the chances are Hel decided to take control of the neutral judgment ground, in case the gods don't let her have her way with her plan. She did seem worried about that a dozen strips ago. The question though is if she'd gain anything from that.

[Ellen]

Not sure if anyone else has said this, but I'm betting on Hilgya bringing Durkon back just so she can yell at him/beat him up/kill him again (and, if a cleric of Loki hasn't pocketed a few diamonds already, my high opinion of her faith is going to take a few blows).

[jwhouk]

A few things:


First: A post about every 90 seconds. Sheesh. Correction: 95 seconds.
Second: I do have this feeling that the afterlife is a bit quiet because of the Godsmoot.
Next: Hel could claim both of them as hers, as Minrah died at the hands of a vampire - and, of course, Durkon was her HP. What Thor says about the whole thing might be telling.
Next-to-Last: Would the Giant do something of a redemption hook, where Thor sends Durkon back with the directive to "fix things, and I'll claim Minrah" - essentially holding Minrah's afterlife against him?
Last: Giant, you tell one heluva story. Kudos yet again.

[Kashem]

Given that Roy and Haley used Durkon's resurrection fund to pay the crew of the Mechane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html), I think Durkon, like Roy, will have a bit of trouble getting back from the Afterlife.

First, how much money did they lose? Does anyone actually know the crew size of the Mechane? I would guesstimate at 10 to 15 (but have nowhere near enough time to go between all Mechane scenes and try to count them), which would mean a cost between 2000 and 3000 gp, not the whole 5000 (I doubt a crew of 25). Further, they paid that in raw GP, not in diamonds, so one would presume that they still have all of the diamonds, so if Hilgya is willing to cast for just components, that already solves that problem.

Since that time they have potentially acquired funds from the following places:
Hilgya has her winnings from fixing the gelatinous cube race, which were shown to be a haul.
They fought a whole bunch of Frost giants, including clerics and such.
They just fought a whole room full of Vampires and Spawn, in two separate combats, who have already eaten a bunch of priests of Thor. Assuming that the vamps bothered to loot the priests, there should have been quite a lot of money at "stake" for those fights.

Future Sources:
If they can un-fix the vote, they will have a whole lot of presumably rich dwarves potentially in their debt.
The temple of Thor should recognize the necessity of raising Durkon in this instance, so they may have some diamonds saved for such an event (especially since he is likely the highest level clergy of Thor in existence, since he may well be higher level than Rubyrock.)
The priest of Odin would presumably have anticipated much/all of this, and could have put diamonds aside for this event.

Basically, there are a zillion different very believable ways for the party to get Durkon resurrected. This is going to be a LOT easier than Roy. I probably missed quite a few other methods.

[Shining Wrath]

Not sure if anyone else has said this, but I'm betting on Hilgya bringing Durkon back just so she can yell at him/beat him up/kill him again (and, if a cleric of Loki hasn't pocketed a few diamonds already, my high opinion of her faith is going to take a few blows).

We know Hilgya became quite rich from bankrupting her family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1114.html). Since Ivan's family didn't contest the divorce, I doubt the two very nice human lawyers took her for all she had.

[woweedd]

A few things:


First: A post about every 90 seconds. Sheesh.
Second: I do have this feeling that the afterlife is a bit quiet because of the Godsmoot.
Next: Hel could claim both of them as hers, as Minrah died at the hands of a vampire - and, of course, Durkon was her HP. What Thor says about the whole thing might be telling.
Next-to-Last: Would the Giant do something of a redemption hook, where Thor sends Durkon back with the directive to "fix things, and I'll claim Minrah" - essentially holding Minrah's afterlife against him?
Last: Giant, you tell one heluva story. Kudos yet again.

Hel would have a very poor case. Putting aside that Minrah wasn't killed by a vampire, she were killed by a Dominated Hilgya, that's not how this works. Dying to a vampire doesn't make you make you go to Hel, dying non-honorably does, and Durkon wasn't her High Priest. A no-longer-existent Negative Energy Being was. Laos, Thor's a Good god- Why would he do that, and why would he even have to?

[Rogar Demonblud]

The issue with Roy wasn't money. It was that the body and the caster were in separate places. Once that was fixed, Roy was back in about fifteen minutes, ten of which was the casting time.

[Mic_128]

A possible suggestion for the lack of other dwarves souls : they died by being ambushed by vampires. Is it entirely possible that doesn't count as an honourable death?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Minrah's little half-smile in panel 7 is beautiful, and I don't think I've ever seen that exact facial expression in the strip before.

It's always neat when a strip has a new facial expression, like the last panel of 759 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html), or the sixth-to last panel of 1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html).

[Peelee]

He was going to go to Firmament to conduct the vote with the Council. All others would be sequestered, per the HPoO.

I'm not seeing that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html) Dvalin is booking it, but there's nothing about his high priest leaving. Can you find as trip that says I'm wrong?

[Shining Wrath]

First, how much money did they lose? Does anyone actually know the crew size of the Mechane? I would guesstimate at 10 to 15 (but have nowhere near enough time to go between all Mechane scenes and try to count them), which would mean a cost between 2000 and 3000 gp, not the whole 5000 (I doubt a crew of 25). Further, they paid that in raw GP, not in diamonds, so one would presume that they still have all of the diamonds, so if Hilgya is willing to cast for just components, that already solves that problem.

Since that time they have potentially acquired funds from the following places:
Hilgya has her winnings from fixing the gelatinous cube race, which were shown to be a haul.
They fought a whole bunch of Frost giants, including clerics and such.
They just fought a whole room full of Vampires and Spawn, in two separate combats, who have already eaten a bunch of priests of Thor. Assuming that the vamps bothered to loot the priests, there should have been quite a lot of money at "stake" for those fights.

Future Sources:
If they can un-fix the vote, they will have a whole lot of presumably rich dwarves potentially in their debt.
The temple of Thor should recognize the necessity of raising Durkon in this instance, so they may have some diamonds saved for such an event (especially since he is likely the highest level clergy of Thor in existence, since he may well be higher level than Rubyrock.)
The priest of Odin would presumably have anticipated much/all of this, and could have put diamonds aside for this event.

Basically, there are a zillion different very believable ways for the party to get Durkon resurrected. This is going to be a LOT easier than Roy. I probably missed quite a few other methods.

Add the Dinner Party Five, who owe Sigdi everything they have and everything they will ever have, plus their eternal souls. They are dwarves, and they will pay their debt.

And if it becomes necessary to persuade people to donate diamonds for the cause:

Roy is quite capable of making an eloquent, logical argument
Elan is quite capable of making a charismatic, emotional argument
Haley is quite capable of doing something that defies the natural order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)

[Stabbey]

200 gp per crewperson probably isn't the whole 10,000 gp kitty for Durkon's resurrection. Twenty-three crewmembers have been shown in-panel (not counting Julio, Fidel or Lakaita), which would make the total 4,600. So figure they need to scrounge up 5,000 gp.

The Resurrection fund was 15,000 GP, so unless there's many more crewmen off-screen, they should have just enough even assuming they have no other gold and got nothing from the frost giants, and since Haley didn't tell Roy "We literally have ONLY the gold you have for Durkon's rez", the party probably has a little more.



I just want to go on the record and predict that Minrah is brought back to life first. It'll cost less, and take less effort to find someone willing/able to do it.

Maybe, and only if there's no one around to resurrect Durkon AND they have enough funds to resurrect them both.

Otherwise, the Order would prioritize Durkon first even if Minrah is cheaper and easier.



I wonder what the chances are Hel decided to take control of the neutral judgment ground, in case the gods don't let her have her way with her plan. She did seem worried about that a dozen strips ago. The question though is if she'd gain anything from that.

I imagine that there's a 0% chance of her doing that. The judgement ground would be something the gods agreed upon, and Hel's whole scheme revolves around not being the first one to break the agreements.

I also sincerely doubt that this is Hel's domain, and I really, really don't think Hel and Thor would bother wasting time fighting completely clear-cut cases such as Durkon and Minrah, both of whom unquestionably died with honor in combat.

[AutomatedTeller]

This is a nice comic. Some humor, some upliftingness. Either we aren't close to the end of the book, or the book ends with a lot of plotlines left open, cause we are clearly going to get a look at the dwarven afterlife here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Add the Dinner Party Five, who owe Sigdi everything they have and everything they will ever have, plus their eternal souls. They are dwarves, and they will pay their debt.

And one of them owns a silver mine. She's probably loaded.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

The problem is, we don't know how this works, because Rich didn't waste page count on it. Either the HPoO's line refers to everyone (all others), or it only means the other gods are stuck there. But we can reason it out.

If all the gods except Dvalin are at the Godsmoot, well, we wouldn't be speculating about Thor showing up here. But we know the gods aren't stuck there, because we've seen Hel and Thrym outside the Godsmoot. So the HPoO's line cannot apply to the gods. Ipso facto, it applies to the mortals: everyone except Dvalin's high priest has been sequestered until the HPoDv returns with his vote,

[Peelee]

The problem is, we don't know how this works, because Rich didn't waste page count on it. Either the HPoO's line refers to everyone (all others), or it only means the other gods are stuck there. But we can reason it out.

If all the gods except Dvalin are at the Godsmoot, well, we wouldn't be speculating about Thor showing up here. But we know the gods aren't stuck there, because we've seen Hel and Thrym outside the Godsmoot. So the HPoO's line cannot apply to the gods. Ipso facto, it applies to the mortals: everyone except Dvalin's high priest has been sequestered until the HPoDv returns with his vote,

...Dvalins high priest is a mortal, so ipso facto it applies to him, by your own logic.

[Particle_Man]

And yes, human, maybe went elsewhere. But there are plenty of other dwarves that just got released from vampire captivity that I'd expect to see here with Durkon.

I have just had a horrible thought. Do we know that souls that have been trapped by vampires get to be free of Hel (or even survive) after their vampire gets dusted, unless it is a special case like Durkon Durkonizing his vampire? I mean it would be unfair, but everything about dwarven life and afterlife is unfair.


Minrah's little half-smile in panel 7 is beautiful, and I don't think I've ever seen that exact facial expression in the strip before.

I like it too, but I thought it reminded me of Durkon's dad's smile when he was about to be killed, and Durkon's mom's smile when she was told in no uncertain terms that her dress was a gift and she was not under any circumstances going to pay anyone back for it.

I think that smile of quiet happiness is, generally, as good as it gets for you, when you are a dwarf.


OK, wild guess. I'm not sure I actually believe this but... the tower might be Niflheim or the entrance to it or be built on top of it like with Dorukan's dungeon or whatever. The bet gave Hel dominion over all dwarves, with an exception for honorable ones (which of course ended up being the majority of them). The two times we've seen Hel and Thor argue, they were in Niflheim. Perhaps she gets all the souls by default and Thor has to go there to claim his. Perhaps, no matter how clear-cut a case is (and Durkon and Minrah's cases are clear-cut), that's where they're sent at first.


So Hel and Thor (and possibly all the other gods in the pantheon, save Loki due to his loophole in the loophole a la Hilgya) spend a lot of their time in legalistic wrangling for souls (their source of power, so they can't just ignore this part because the other side won't) instead of managing their respective portfolios. Loki you bastard.

Wait, could Hel be filibustering or something just to keep Durkon and the other vampirized-then-killed dwarves "on ice" for long enough to give her vampires a better chance to succeed in her scheme? Certainly her followers seem to be good at rules-lawyering, and she is their god.

[Rogan]

[...]
Ipso facto, it applies to the mortals: everyone except Dvalin's high priest has been sequestered until the HPoDv returns with his vote,

I thought everyone, INCLUDING Dvalin's high priest has been sequestered. We don't see him leaving, do we?
We know therer will be a vote of the clans, but I don't think the high priest has to be there. After all, Dvalin is a good an thus not subject of the rule of 'you must not leave'
It seems likely that he will be able to persive the outcome of the Clans vote and relay this back to his high priest.

[Keltest]

The problem is, we don't know how this works, because Rich didn't waste page count on it. Either the HPoO's line refers to everyone (all others), or it only means the other gods are stuck there. But we can reason it out.

If all the gods except Dvalin are at the Godsmoot, well, we wouldn't be speculating about Thor showing up here. But we know the gods aren't stuck there, because we've seen Hel and Thrym outside the Godsmoot. So the HPoO's line cannot apply to the gods. Ipso facto, it applies to the mortals: everyone except Dvalin's high priest has been sequestered until the HPoDv returns with his vote,

The HPoO makes no exception for Dvalin's high priest though? He has a formal role, ergo he falls under the umbrella of people who shall remain sequestered.

[Lethologica]

Bets on Thor and Hel showing up to argue over Durkon's soul, and Minrah's? It's hardly an ambiguous case like the previous times we've seen them do it, but we have seen them do it.

[Mr_Ratatosk]

Maybe, and only if there's no one around to resurrect Durkon AND they have enough funds to resurrect them both.

Otherwise, the Order would prioritize Durkon first even if Minrah is cheaper and easier.

Completely agree with you on this. I recognize that there's money issues, but that aside, Hilgya will more easily be persuaded to bring back Minrah than Durkon. The Order may ask her to do that, thinking they'll get Durkon sorted later. Since she is right there already, I'd give it a 20% chance.

The remaining 80% says they wait until much later to raise either of them (when all danger passes), so they should just get comfortable in the afterlife for a bit.

(And the idea of Hel attacking the afterlife is a silly idea, but honestly, I don't see who would do that unless it was her or the Snarl.)

[brian 333]

Any speculation on the tower? Valhalla? Bureaucratic Deva HQ? One of Xykon's secret hideouts?

In Norse myth Valhalla is described as a "hall", as in a viking longhouse, with the shields of the fallen for the roof. Could be I tower, I suppose, but I don't think that's where they are.

From what does the Bifrost Bridge spring? It would make sense that there is a gatehouse of some kind guarding the entrance to pseudo-Viking Heaven.

This is my guess, anyway.

[facw]

If all the gods except Dvalin are at the Godsmoot...

None of the gods are at the Godsmoot (nor have they ever been). They are represented there by their priests, who are not allowed to leave. Maybe there's an exception for Dvalin's priest, but the high-priest of Odin certainly didn't give any indication that there was, and it's not at all clear that there would need to be one. Dvalin surely has other followers.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I like it too, but I thought it reminded me of Durkon's dad's smile when he was about to be killed, and Durkon's mom's smile when she was told in no uncertain terms that her dress was a gift and she was not under any circumstances going to pay anyone back for it.

I think that smile of quiet happiness is, generally, as good as it gets for you, when you are a dwarf.

Huh. You're right, those are very similar. That's a neat little detail, and a good observation on OOTS Dwarves.

[HandofShadows]

When talking to Elan is a considered a good thing stuff has changed. :smallcool:

[TheSaracen]

Hey, why is it that Durkon seems to be the only dwarf with what’s described as a “dwarven accent”? Previously, I assumed that Hilgya and Minrah didn’t have dwarven accents because they were speaking Common to humans, but now there’s just two dwarves speaking to each other, in the absence of any non-dwarves, and it’s not like Minrah was raised by humans or anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hey, why is it that Durkon seems to be the only dwarf with what’s described as a “dwarven accent”?

His mom also had the accent, so my guess is that they're not from Firmament, which, being open to the air, might be a common port for trade and thus have a more human-similar accent than some of the deeper communities.

Edit to add: one of the five friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) also has the accent, and is the only one with the same shade of brown skin, so it might be related.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Hey, why is it that Durkon seems to be the only dwarf with what’s described as a “dwarven accent”? Previously, I assumed that Hilgya and Minrah didn’t have dwarven accents because they were speaking Common to humans, but now there’s just two dwarves speaking to each other, in the absence of any non-dwarves, and it’s not like Minrah was raised by humans or anything.

Why do humans have different accents? Maybe Sigdi is just from a different city? Hilgya and co have a Firmament accent, which is much less pronounced since its a trade city closer to the surface. Durkon has his Ma's accent.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Hilgya was from Firmament, Durkon would know her from school. Or at least know of the wealthy and powerful Firehelm Clan.

[godsflunky]

Sudden thought: Heimdall voted to destroy the world. Would he give Durkon any trouble on the bridge to Valhalla, and that's why Durkon isn't on the usual track? Or is he, like some others, regretting his vote?

I do like the idea that Thor has pulled his followers aside for a quiet word. Quiet for Thor, that is.

[Kashem]

Sudden thought: Heimdall voted to destroy the world. Would he give Durkon any trouble on the bridge to Valhalla, and that's why Durkon isn't on the usual track? Or is he, like some others, regretting his vote?

I do like the idea that Thor has pulled his followers aside for a quiet word. Quiet for Thor, that is.

I assume that since, immediately after she voted, Hel singled Heimdall out and said, "No changing your vote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)." that indeed, he would be a key candidate for regretting his vote upon having learned the full results of it.
Good thought though. I could definitely see Heimdall helping somehow.

[Keltest]

If Hilgya was from Firmament, Durkon would know her from school. Or at least know of the wealthy and powerful Firehelm Clan.

I think its pretty clear Hilgya didn't go to the same cleric school Durkon did. And I don't even know most of the above-average wealthy families in my own home town. I see no reason to assume he would know those in his.

[vwnewt]

How may clerics in this world can even cast Resurrection without a corpse? Anyway, it's nice to see Durkon happy. It's also notable that, despite having just died an honorable death, technically twice, he's still willing to go back for the sake of saving the world, in spite of the personal risk. A true dwarf, through-and-through. Let's hope Elan's Law Of Probability works!

That's where I am on this: He's got an afterlife, his soul is safe, and he can leave it to the rest of the team; mom's influence is still there, though, and it sounds like, if called, he'll come back.

It also brings to mind some questions about his dad: mom didn't call, but if she had, did she know he'd put his eternal happiness ahead of hers? She clearly had the opportunity to set an example for Durkon growing up. Did she not want dad around for Durkon's formative years?

It seems to me that, in a similar situation, Mom would come back if called; I wonder if she knew, in her heart, that dad wouldn't, so she never tried.

Will he run into dad up here and try to resolve daddy issues a'la Roy? Learn more about the accident that changed his family's fortune? Read way too much into things?

[Sylian]

Edit to add: one of the five friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) also has the accent, and is the only one with the same shade of brown skin, so it might be related.Two of them, actually, Hoskin did as well. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html

Different skin tone, though still a bit darker than the lightest skin tone. Hard to tell whether it's related or not, could just be a different accent.

[knag]

From what does the Bifrost Bridge spring? It would make sense that there is a gatehouse of some kind guarding the entrance to pseudo-Viking Heaven.

This is my guess, anyway.

Roy entered Celestia through the Pearly Gates, so it would make sense for Durkon to enter crossing the Bifrost. That's something I'd love to see in OOTSverse!

[Particle_Man]

It also brings to mind some questions about his dad: mom didn't call, but if she had, did she know he'd put his eternal happiness ahead of hers? She clearly had the opportunity to set an example for Durkon growing up. Did she not want dad around for Durkon's formative years?

It seems to me that, in a similar situation, Mom would come back if called; I wonder if she knew, in her heart, that dad wouldn't, so she never tried.

Will he run into dad up here and try to resolve daddy issues a'la Roy? Learn more about the accident that changed his family's fortune? Read way too much into things?

I think dad would have come back if he knew mom was calling and since she knew this that is why she never called.

[TheSaracen]

His mom also had the accent, so my guess is that they're not from Firmament, which, being open to the air, might be a common port for trade and thus have a more human-similar accent than some of the deeper communities.

Edit to add: one of the five friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) also has the accent, and is the only one with the same shade of brown skin, so it might be related.

Grey Wolf

That’s a very good point: I guess it would make perfect sense that their would be ethnic differences amongst dwarves, just as their are amongst humans (though these differences might matter less in a fantasy setting with multiple species, of course).

I guess the fact that darker-skinned dwarves speak with the “Durkon Voice” and lighter skinned dwarves speak more or less like humans could imply that the darker skinned ones come from deeper inside the Dwarvish lands, and therefore have in general less contact with humans, or perhaps live deeper underground, and therefore surface less often (and therefore also have fewer interactions with non-dwarves).

[vwnewt]

I can think of five dwarves who owe Durkon's mom everything they have plus quite a bit more, and who therefore might be willing to help out, especially with the fate of the world at stake. Also, Hilgya wants to have words with Durkon (if only so she can kill him herself), and we know she got quite a bit of money from bankrupting her own clan for revenge.

True on all counts, but a) Hilgya wanted him dead and b) the Order doesn't know about the family.

Having said that, "...probability proves herself willing to service drama like a copperpiece harlot." -V

[KorvinStarmast]

... that's still answering the call to battle when it's most needed. Revolutions have been built on such courage. Yeah, that's Minrah, fighter to the end. :smallsmile:

We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven. Groan, but also :smallbiggrin:

Considering that Brother Sandstone and the dwarves dusted with him have been dead for a few hours at this point, they're probably already in the tower being processed. Or past the tower. We'll see what's in the tower, but ...
Roy entered Celestia through the Pearly Gates, so it would make sense for Durkon to enter crossing the Bifrost. That's something I'd love to see in OOTSverse! ... I'd love to see that as well.

Dinnae get ta spend much time talkin' ta Elan, then?

Chortled, I did.
Thank you Giant.

[warmachine]

For a cleric, Durkon's knowledge of the afterlife is awful. Roy isn't the first person to be raised from the dead. The basic geography awaiting the dead should be common library text.

[hamishspence]

Edit to add: one of the five friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html) also has the accent, and is the only one with the same shade of brown skin, so it might be related.





I guess the fact that darker-skinned dwarves speak with the “Durkon Voice” and lighter skinned dwarves speak more or less like humans could imply that the darker skinned ones come from deeper inside the Dwarvish lands, and therefore have in general less contact with humans, or perhaps live deeper underground, and therefore surface less often (and therefore also have fewer interactions with non-dwarves).

The other scenes of the five friends and their offspring, many years later:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

show a lot of them speaking with the accent.

[Peelee]

For a cleric, Durkon's knowledge of the afterlife is awful. Roy isn't the first person to be raised from the dead. The basic geography awaiting the dead should be common library text.

Minrah also seems stumped, so we can assume the basic geography is certainly not common library text.

[vwnewt]

His mom also had the accent, so my guess is that they're not from Firmament, which, being open to the air, might be a common port for trade and thus have a more human-similar accent than some of the deeper communities.

Grey Wolf

Love your observations, Wolf.

[warmachine]

Minrah also seems stumped, so we can assume the basic geography is certainly not common library text.
Good point. For a long lived species, dwarves, or at least Clerics of Thor, have no desire for exploration or knowledge acquisition.

Or it could be Durkon and Minrah bunked a lot of lectures. Don't skip lectures, kids!

[Fish]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of this being Hel. Sorry to contradict you, Minrah.
We've seen where Odin hangs out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) and where Thor hangs out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html). We've also seen where Thor and Hel argue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) over a dwarven soul, which looks very similar to Hel's own domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html).

The background in today's strip doesn't really look like either of them. Therefore, I reckon it is some ante-heaven area where dwarves are judged. It's not Valhalla because Durkon hasn't got in yet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For a cleric, Durkon's knowledge of the afterlife is awful. Roy isn't the first person to be raised from the dead. The basic geography awaiting the dead should be common library text.

You say that as if we didn't know Durkon's Knowledge-Religion score is crap. Elan probably knows more due to Bardic Knowledge.

[Particle_Man]

Minrah also seems stumped, so we can assume the basic geography is certainly not common library text.

That ignorance might be generic and speak to how seldom dwarves that go to Valhalla ever get raised.

[Shining Wrath]

That ignorance might be generic and speak to how seldom dwarves that go to Valhalla ever get raised.

^THIS.

A race with a strong racial bias against raising those who died honorably may not have many people who have been raised. At least, not ones who were headed for Thor.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

These conversations on the clouds make for a much slower-paced comic that is honestly quite refreshing compared to a few strips ago; it’s nice to see the characters relax! Still, I am a little anxious for what awaits them in that tower.

[factotum]

None of the gods are at the Godsmoot (nor have they ever been). They are represented there by their priests, who are not allowed to leave.

In particular, it's explicitly stated that a priest leaving the Godsmoot (or dying there) would automatically make their god's vote null and void--this is why Durkula had to pass the mantle of HPoH onto another vampire before leaving, or else it would immediately have spoiled Hel's plan.

(I wonder what that vampire at the Godsmoot is eating, thinking about it? I don't imagine the other priests would be particularly receptive to a request to have their blood drunk...).

[Doug Lampert]

In particular, it's explicitly stated that a priest leaving the Godsmoot (or dying there) would automatically make their god's vote null and void--this is why Durkula had to pass the mantle of HPoH onto another vampire before leaving, or else it would immediately have spoiled Hel's plan.

(I wonder what that vampire at the Godsmoot is eating, thinking about it? I don't imagine the other priests would be particularly receptive to a request to have their blood drunk...).

Some might, remember that they have Restoration spells, and that half of them voted the same way as Hel, her premature gloating may have cost her some support, but there are still Hel supporters at the Moot.

[maxon]

We may, in fact, be looking at a match made in heaven.

RELEASE ... THE SHIPPING!

Shouldn't that be Launch ...

Launch the Shipping!!

Sorry, sorry - I can be so picky

[Shining Wrath]

Shouldn't that be Launch ...

Launch the Shipping!!

Sorry, sorry - I can be so picky

I'm sorry, I was just Kraken a joke.

[Ironsmith]

She smiled and stopped! I suspect that when Hilgya feared Minrha might have been the next gf of Durkon, she might have been not so far from truth. Just a bit too early on time.

Oh, it gets even better. She spent their first interaction (not counting Durkula) beating him in the face, and they both hold a lot of the same values. Plus "second time's luckier" has worked for every PC here except for Elan (Haley's implied to have at least one ex), so Minra would be good to go there.

I can tell ya from experience; those two are gonna be close.

[hroþila]

We've seen where Odin hangs out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) and where Thor hangs out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html). We've also seen where Thor and Hel argue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) over a dwarven soul, which looks very similar to Hel's own domain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html).

The background in today's strip doesn't really look like either of them. Therefore, I reckon it is some ante-heaven area where dwarves are judged. It's not Valhalla because Durkon hasn't got in yet.
Thor and Hel almost definitely argue in Hel's abode. My theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565922-OOTS-1133-The-Discussion-Thread&p=23281524#post23281524) is that, since Hel gets default dominion over the dwarves and the "honorable death" thing was an exception to that, all dwarven souls might go there at first. If so, the tower might be the entrance to her abode or be built on top of it. Her abode doesn't have to be all there is in her Plane, after all.

But I only buy my own theory like 50%.

[Corian]

For a cleric, Durkon's knowledge of the afterlife is awful. Roy isn't the first person to be raised from the dead. The basic geography awaiting the dead should be common library text.

In a society with raise dead/speak with dead/resurrection, you'd think that would be well known, unless the experience varies deeply according to belief (which could well happen), but even that would be common knowledge then.

Maybe the knowledge diffusion technologies are also deeply pre-modern ;-)

[facw]

She smiled and stopped! I suspect that when Hilgya feared Minrha might have been the next gf of Durkon, she might have been not so far from truth. Just a bit too early on time.
I assumed the smiling panel was just her being amused by Durkon's unintentional joke, and wouldn't read anything more into it. Of course, amusing someone (even unintentionally), is never really a bad start.

[Emperor Time]

For Resurrection (7th level), all you need is the ashes, or any piece of the corpse at all. Which is why Durkon is worried about them remembering to grab some ashes, and why a poster or two was worried about what a vengeful Hilgya might do to the ashes.

EDIT: Ninja'd--but only once. Not bad.

EDIT 2: If something does happen to the ashes, Durkon will need a 9th level True Resurrection, which doesn't require remains.

But isn't the True Resurrection spell suppose to be one of the spells that forbidden in this comic due to story reasons?

[Ironsmith]

I assumed the smiling panel was just her being amused by Durkon's unintentional joke, and wouldn't read anything more into it. Of course, amusing someone (even unintentionally), is never really a bad start.

If there's a joke there, I'm not seeing it.

[Kevium]

Oh, it gets even better. She spent their first interaction (not counting Durkula) beating him in the face, and they both hold a lot of the same values. Plus "second time's luckier" has worked for every PC here except for Elan (Haley's implied to have at least one ex), so Minra would be good to go there.

I can tell ya from experience; those two are gonna be close.

We can totally toss Elan in there if we count Samantha!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

[Peelee]

I'm sorry, I was just Kraken a joke.

That ship sailed a while ago

[ti'esar]

My thoughts before entering this thread were all about why nobody from Valhalla has shown up yet to meet Durkon and Minrah, and subsequently if there's actually anything different from Roy on Celestia (who spent a couple of strips bickering with his dad before a deva arrived).

My thoughts after entering this thread: AUUUUUUUGHHHH SHIPPERS

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Giant has stated that it pretty much exists to wreck narratives. Well, to be fair, that's pretty much all high-grade magic.

That's not to say that he couldn't use it well. But there's no need when there's plenty of ashes at hand.

[dps]

Are you saying we don't already have one?

Not to my knowledge. We have a thread that indexes in-comic nicknames, but nothing that indexes nicknames given to characters by posters.

[facw]

If there's a joke there, I'm not seeing it.

My reading (especially with the beat panel) is that the Joke is that Durkon has described Minrah's heroism in a way that, absent context, would more likely be assumed to describe answering the call of nature, rather than the call of duty.

[Ironsmith]

My reading (especially with the beat panel) is that the Joke is that Durkon has described Minrah's heroism in a way that, absent context, would more likely be assumed to describe answering the call of nature, rather than the call of duty.

That seems like a bit of a stretch, unless there's some alternative definition of "distinguished" of which I am not aware.


We can totally toss Elan in there if we count Samantha!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

Wait... does that mean that everyone in the Order who has had a first date/crush has subsequently tried to kill them? (Miko -> Roy, Samantha -> Elan, Someone from the horribly degenerate Greysky City -> Haley, Hylgia -> Durkon) Vaarsuvius and Belkar are the only ones who get off easy here (unless Inkyrius was Vaarsuvius's first and only love, and even that might count since she did threaten him/her with a stick and filed for a divorce after the whole familicide debacle).

...That in mind, I think I know how Belkar's gonna go out; quietly shived by Jenny in a dark alley somewhere. Don't eff with the thieve's guild (or at least call afterwards... geez, Belkar...)

[Dion]

EDIT 2: If something does happen to the ashes, Durkon will need a 9th level True Resurrection, which doesn't require remains.

It doesn’t require a body, but it does require a cleric capable of casting 9th level spells. I’m sure someone else will jump in to correct me, but the only cleric I’m currently aware of in the entire world capable of casting 9th level spells is Redcloak.

Redcloak is unlikely to raise Durkon.

[Shining Wrath]

My reading (especially with the beat panel) is that the Joke is that Durkon has described Minrah's heroism in a way that, absent context, would more likely be assumed to describe answering the call of nature, rather than the call of duty.

Not much about the call of nature is distinguished. You have to strip off context at both ends.

[Emperor Time]

The Giant has stated that it pretty much exists to wreck narratives. Well, to be fair, that's pretty much all high-grade magic.

That's not to say that he couldn't use it well. But there's no need when there's plenty of ashes at hand.

Very interesting since that means we might see that spell, even if it just once at the very most.

[Coolio Wolfus]

But isn't the True Resurrection spell suppose to be one of the spells that forbidden in this comic due to story reasons?

It may be unavailable to mere mortals, but what of the gods themselves?

[facw]

That seems like a bit of a stretch, unless there's some alternative definition of "distinguished" of which I am not aware.

Well that's why it's funny, precisely because it doesn't fit with his next statement. You have some support in thinking there's no joke here, but my feeling is that with the title calling attention to that panel, and the beat panel afterward, that this is supposed to be a joke.

[Shadurak]

I'm also blown away by how fast the chapters are arriving. Kudos, Giant!
It's nice to see Durkon be his usual self, especially after that speech his teammates gave about how he was basically the glue that kept the party together.
As for the tower, my guess is it's the place where each and every dwarven soul is judged before being sent to their respective afterlife. Probably the same place we've seen Hel and Thor argue before.

[Moriel64]

I think Durkon has been reading the forums...

Anyway, he clearly will accept a resurrection, despite dying with honor, so that's one question answered, not that there was ever any real doubt.

Yeah, but for Durkon, it's clear the fight is not over yet. And he's not willing to go to Valhalla until it is. This is just the seventh-inning stretch for him.

[Moriel64]

Not sure if anyone else has said this, but I'm betting on Hilgya bringing Durkon back just so she can yell at him/beat him up/kill him again (and, if a cleric of Loki hasn't pocketed a few diamonds already, my high opinion of her faith is going to take a few blows).

That's what I think. Hilgya wants to kill Durkon herself. Also, it will give us a chance to see Durkon and Kudzu meet. <shamelessly wants fluff after this ordeal>

[Lethologica]

Well that's why it's funny, precisely because it doesn't fit with his next statement. You have some support in thinking there's no joke here, but my feeling is that with the title calling attention to that panel, and the beat panel afterward, that this is supposed to be a joke.
Er, it's supposed to be heartwarming affirmation of Minrah's sense of worth. That much is obvious, and also sufficient to explain the attention it receives. To interpret it either as a joke or as ship bait seems highly speculative. Yes, there's a beat panel, but for a joke, it's the wrong beat. And I'm highly dubious that Rich is writing any kind of "love at first sight" into the plot at this stage.

It seems to me that this sequence is for the straightforward purpose of establishing some posthumous fellowship between Minrah and Durkon. In what direction that will be leveraged, I have only my own speculations, which I will elaborate on if the discussion turns towards Hilgya, and not before.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

My opinion on the Durkon/Minrah ship: I'd prefer it if Minrah married someone without weird emotional issues who also is NOT prophesied to bring us all to ruin. I'm sure there's a lot of good, decent, not-bald dwarves with stable jobs and lots of money, or at least some place to call home.

[Windscion]

My opinion on the Durkon/Minrah ship: I'd prefer it if Minrah married someone without weird emotional issues who also is NOT prophesied to bring us all to ruin. I'm sure there's a lot of good, decent, not-bald dwarves with stable jobs and lots of money, or at least some place to call home.
Because Durkon is some kind of shiftless loser? Durkon is the hero they need, and not the hero some of them deserve.

[eilandesq]

But isn't the True Resurrection spell suppose to be one of the spells that forbidden in this comic due to story reasons?

The Giant dislikes that spell and basically stated that he would never use it--that didn't stop him from having Haley mention it as the justification for not summarily executing Nale and the rest of the Linear Guild after Nale's impersonation gambit was foiled:


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

So the spell exists, but only as a deterrent from taking certain ethical shortcuts (though it didn't stop V. from taking said shortcut when Haley wasn't around to call V. on it):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html

Five hundred odd strips later, I don't see anyone casting True Resurrection to bring Evil Moustache Guy back, so they're probably in the clear.

[Mandor]

As long as it's like one-in-a-million chance, he'll be fine.

[Riftwolf]

Does anyone feel ominous about them walking to a tower but we aren't shown the tower? Like it'll turn out not to be a good thing, them going to an unseen tower? Is there any spurious Northern Pantheon felon who's all up in the towers?
Saruman doesn't count!

[Stabbey]

My prediction: Minrah and Durkon will reach the tower and go in, and then before we see what's in there... we'll cut away back to Firmament. Durkon will be resurrected at some point, maybe Minrah raised as well, but they'll have to race to stop the interference with the vote and we, the readers, won't see what happened in the tower until like the very last page of the book.

[Fitzclowningham]

In the last panel, Durkon is positively cheeky. I don't think he could have even thought that way before being vamped. I'm going to guess that the experience changed him deeply.

[Ironsmith]

In the last panel, Durkon is positively cheeky. I don't think he could have even thought that way before being vamped. I'm going to guess that the experience changed him deeply.

That, or just being dead. Regardless of what happens to him now, he doesn't have a whole lot of responsibilities on his shoulders.

[Sloanzilla]

I've got a bad feeling about this. Either the gates are closed or Durkon is going to be told he cannot go back...because reasons.

[factotum]

My opinion on the Durkon/Minrah ship: I'd prefer it if Minrah married someone without weird emotional issues who also is NOT prophesied to bring us all to ruin.

The prophecy was "The next time he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all". He's already returned home, so that suggests the prophecy is already in motion regardless of what happens to Durkon himself.

[DSCrankshaw]

Glad to see that good old Durkon will not abandon his friends to remain in Valhalla.

However, the portrayal of his apparent afterlife worries me. It's too dark, and too empty, and the mention of a tower feels off somehow.

I wonder if this will lead to another battle for Durkon and Minrah to overcome.

I'm not too worried about the dark. We've seen the realm of Thor even darker before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), when he was summoning a storm. But I do agree that it's awfully empty, and I'd like to see that tower.

[Father Miles]

On this True Resurrection business. I think the Giant won't use it in a story because he doesn't like it and therefore it won't appear in the story. But I think he implies it exists in several places; in addition to Haley's comments, it seems like Durkon believed the High Priest of Odin could bring his father back with 25,000gp of diamonds. Maybe he meant Resurrection (normal) but there is no clear means of recovering even part of the body, so... it seems like it is "theoretically possible" in OOTS world but should be treated like "Sir Not appearing in this tale".

[RdMarquis]

Minrah's little smile in the seventh panel is just what I needed to see today. :smallsmile:

[Psychronia]

After being vamped for so long, Durkon has earned a little optimism.

So good to see him again. Actually, is it just me or is he a bit...different? Did this whole ordeal actually make him more at peace with things that were weighing him down?

[TheNecrocomicon]

To the Nine Hells with True Resurrection ... I find myself wondering if Thor is capable of sending a dwarf directly back to the realm of the living as a revenant. Maybe the condition is that Durkon returns until Xykon, Redcloak and the forces of evil are defeated and the world is saved, and then rejoins Thor in Valhalla.

[The MunchKING]

Does anyone feel ominous about them walking to a tower but we aren't shown the tower? Like it'll turn out not to be a good thing, them going to an unseen tower? Is there any spurious Northern Pantheon felon who's all up in the towers?
Saruman doesn't count!

They got side-tracked to the Astral Plane and it's secretly Xykon's secret fortress thingie. I seem to remember that had some towers.

[Emperor Time]

On this True Resurrection business. I think the Giant won't use it in a story because he doesn't like it and therefore it won't appear in the story. But I think he implies it exists in several places; in addition to Haley's comments, it seems like Durkon believed the High Priest of Odin could bring his father back with 25,000gp of diamonds. Maybe he meant Resurrection (normal) but there is no clear means of recovering even part of the body, so... it seems like it is "theoretically possible" in OOTS world but should be treated like "Sir Not appearing in this tale".

So the lock of his beard isn't enough for the normal Resurrection spell?

[Kish]

Resurrection requires part of the target's body that was attached to them when they died.

[Father Miles]

So the lock of his beard isn't enough for the normal Resurrection spell?

Depends on OOTS house rules, I guess. It was taken before he died, not after, so does that qualify? If it does, then everyone should store their hair and make True Resurrection unnecessary.

[Ironsmith]

To the Nine Hells with True Resurrection ... I find myself wondering if Thor is capable of sending a dwarf directly back to the realm of the living as a revenant. Maybe the condition is that Durkon returns until Xykon, Redcloak and the forces of evil are defeated and the world is saved, and then rejoins Thor in Valhalla.

Unlikely; death and coming back from it seems to be more like Hel's domain (with the domain agreement making spells like Resurrection common for clerics), and I doubt she'll agree to the revenant arrangement.

[Gnoman]

In a society with raise dead/speak with dead/resurrection, you'd think that would be well known, unless the experience varies deeply according to belief (which could well happen), but even that would be common knowledge then.

Maybe the knowledge diffusion technologies are also deeply pre-modern ;-)

One important point is that the only reference point we have here is Roy, who spent a lot more time hanging around the waiting room than a normal dead guy. If we assume that most of the recently deceased don't have their estranged father hanging around outside (reasonable, given how lonely Eugene is), most of them probably just go through the Deva and proceed to their afterlife for awhile while waiting for resurrection. We know that everything inside the afterlife itself is nothing but a blur, so most people probably don't have much to remember.

[The MunchKING]

Unlikely; death and coming back from it seems to be more like Hel's domain (with the domain agreement making spells like Resurrection common for clerics), and I doubt she'll agree to the revenant arrangement.

Arguably Freya, Feya, and whichever other Gods/Godesses of Health should be able to work it too as Healer Gods/esses

[Ironsmith]

Arguably Freya, Feya, and whichever other Gods/Godesses of Health should be able to work it too as Healer Gods/esses

Well, it depends on where you draw the line between "claiming the life" and "restoring to health"... though I'm pretty sure pulling back the soul of someone who is already dead is on Hel's side of the line.

[The MunchKING]

Well, it depends on where you draw the line between "claiming the life" and "restoring to health"... though I'm pretty sure pulling back the soul of someone who is already dead is on Hel's side of the line.

I mean Health/Healing Gods have access to the Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath) SDA or its predecessor Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) and only need to relatively minor Gods, as far as the powers go.

That said Gift of Life does explicitly mention needing the Goddess of the Underworld's permission if you're trying to force the soul back against it's wishes (which is outside of the "normal" sphere of True Resurrection). Presumably if it wants to come back it would be treated like "We all agreed True Res would let people come back to life, so Hel has to let it go".

[Ironsmith]

I mean Health/Healing Gods have access to the Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath) SDA or its predecessor Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) and only need to relatively minor Gods, as far as the powers go.

That said Gift of Life does explicitly mention needing the Goddess of the Underworld's permission if you're trying to force the soul back against it's wishes (which is outside of the "normal" sphere of True Resurrection). Presumably if it wants to come back it would be treated like "We all agreed True Res would let people come back to life, so Hel has to let it go".

Or Hel might violate the agreement out of spite; it's not like it's got much chance of helping her out now.

[Particle_Man]

My opinion on the Durkon/Minrah ship: I'd prefer it if Minrah married someone without weird emotional issues who also is NOT prophesied to bring us all to ruin. I'm sure there's a lot of good, decent, not-bald dwarves with stable jobs and lots of money, or at least some place to call home.

Hilgya's ex-husband Ivan is free. He seemed nice.

Possible horrifying thought: The Snarl is loose and killing gods and dead souls? Thor and Hel are both dead already? Valhalla and Hel are empty?

Possible uplifting thought: Instead of resurrection, Durkon is upgraded to a Saint or to a deathless like Risen Martyr or even to an outright Celestial and put back in the game that way?

[Particle_Man]

Or Hel might violate the agreement out of spite; it's not like it's got much chance of helping her out now.

She still has some vampires in play at the council of clans. I don't think she will break the rules unless they are off the board. Perhaps not even then. She has been patient, relatively speaking.

[Emmit Svenson]

Not sure if anyone else has said this, but I'm betting on Hilgya bringing Durkon back just so she can yell at him/beat him up/kill him again....

Or because she doesn't think he deserves Valhalla, and sees a chance that he might die a dishonorable death if she brings him back.

[factotum]

Or Hel might violate the agreement out of spite; it's not like it's got much chance of helping her out now.

And then every other god on the planet is opposed to her. However bad her situation is now, doing that would make it a hundred times worse, and I don't think Hel is stupid enough to bring that down on her head for the sake of a moment of revenge.

[Messenger]

Oh, Minrah... :smallwink:

We need to get you exiled from the Dwarven Homelands. Get a good number of adventurer levels under your belt. :smallsmile:

(I guess I'm being way too optimistic and basking too much in the glory of Durkon's story. For all the bitterness and pain and sorrow he suffered in his banishment, he grew so much stronger and wiser and found some great friends and went through some epic times even despite dying. I normally and very cynically scoff at the idea of adversity making a person stronger and better, but this is one example of it being true.)

[Shining Wrath]

Well that's why it's funny, precisely because it doesn't fit with his next statement. You have some support in thinking there's no joke here, but my feeling is that with the title calling attention to that panel, and the beat panel afterward, that this is supposed to be a joke.

I think the title of the strip is calling attention to the most important scene in the strip - Durkon building a relationship with Minrah by being positive and encouraging. I seriously do not think Rich intended anyone to think call [of nature].

But, unless we get Word of Giant from on high, we'll never know. You read your strip, I'll read mine. :smallsmile:

[CJG]

I normally and very cynically scoff at the idea of adversity making a person stronger and better, but this is one example of it being true.) Adversity, doesn’t make people (or characters!) better, but what a person does in response to that adversity can.

As Durkon said, he could have wallowed in his worst day, but he didn’t. Instead he turned it around and he is stronger for that.

[Centaur]

The prophecy was "The next time he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all". He's already returned home, so that suggests the prophecy is already in motion regardless of what happens to Durkon himself.

On the other hand, with the impending resurrection, Durkon is going to return home on a whole different level.

[woweedd]

On the other hand, with the impending resurrection, Durkon is going to return home on a whole different level.
Technically, whether or not "Durkon" was referring to Durkon, the physical body, or Durkon, the soul, both returned home with the vampire. Granted, one was chained-up at the time, but he was still perceiving and aware.

[Basement Cat]

I wonder if the empty cloud plane represents the gods' efforts to pull back their "resources" in preparation for the destruction of the world.

I, too, suspect that Durkon may soon encounter Thor.

Possibly a rather solemn Thor. :smalleek:

[factotum]

Technically, weather or not "Durkon" was referring to Durkon, the physical body, or Durkon, the soul, both returned home with the vampire. Granted, one was chained-up at the time, but he was still perceiving and aware.

Yes, and the prophecy specifically stated the "next" time he returned home, not some unspecified future return to home. My worry is that Durkula didn't cause enough death and destruction to be the prophecy coming true...

[Keltest]

Yes, and the prophecy specifically stated the "next" time he returned home, not some unspecified future return to home. My worry is that Durkula didn't cause enough death and destruction to be the prophecy coming true...

So youre concerned that... the prophecy was wrong? Or what? I don't understand this concern.

[CJG]

Yes, and the prophecy specifically stated the "next" time he returned home, not some unspecified future return to home. My worry is that Durkula didn't cause enough death and destruction to be the prophecy coming true...
Sphinx pox?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, and the prophecy specifically stated the "next" time he returned home, not some unspecified future return to home. My worry is that Durkula didn't cause enough death and destruction to be the prophecy coming true...

Not to go too RL on you, but a religious fundamentalists arrives to a town, exterminates everyone in the local temple of a major religion plus a bunch of civilians that were in the locality and you don't think that qualifies as death and destruction? Far lesser massacres make headlines for days.

Grey Wolf

[Fish]

Or Hel might violate the agreement out of spite; it's not like it's got much chance of helping her out now.
I dunno. What class of spell is the "commune with deity" thing that the clerics at the Godsmoot are using?


Yes, and the prophecy specifically stated the "next" time he returned home, not some unspecified future return to home. My worry is that Durkula didn't cause enough death and destruction to be the prophecy coming true...
Durkon brought death, because he was dead. Durkula brought destruction, because he was destroyed. No more may be required.

[KorvinStarmast]

Arguably Freya, Feya, and whichever other Gods/Godesses of Health should be able to work it too as Healer Gods/esses Hmm, yes, if Firmament has a full suite of the pantheon's temples. It might be that in this smaller town, there may not be as many as in the capital.

Quick question: I usually get the puns in Rich's titles for a strip, but this one has me a little puzzled.

Call Answering. Can you explain the pun on this one; I'll probably smack my forehead when you do, but this one went over my head. Is it to do with Durkon praising Minrah over her being in the fight after she explains how useless she feels for having died in the battle?

[Shining Wrath]

All that is required for Durkon to have fulfilled the prophecy is if at least one vampire cleric had Death as a domain, and at least one vampire cleric had Destruction as a domain. Prophecies can be very specific in unexpected ways.

As Grey Wolf says, Durkon killed many people (Death) and nearly wiped out a major temple (Destruction).

It's also possible that the Ex-Exarch will do a little killing and destroying before this arc ends.

It's less likely, but Hilgya may react to Durkon in a way that causes death and destruction as well. The gal who considered burning down her family's ancestral hall is certainly capable of destroying some stuff.

Or, death and destruction may refer to Hel's scheme, which certainly included death and destruction for the dwarves, and which is still in motion although considerably thwarted by the efforts of Mr. Scruffy, Belkar, and Durkon Sigrison.

[Peelee]

My reading (especially with the beat panel) is that the Joke is that Durkon has described Minrah's heroism in a way that, absent context, would more likely be assumed to describe answering the call of nature, rather than the call of duty.

Unannounced? Do you live in a world of Kevin Malones, where people loudly announce "I had togo to the bathroom!"?

I think the bathroom reference is much more tenuous than you believe and wasn't intentional, but hey, if you like it, don't let me rain on your parade.

[Worldsong]

Or Hel might violate the agreement out of spite; it's not like it's got much chance of helping her out now.

As Hel pointed out herself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html) her entire plan relies on abusing the rules so the other gods can't/won't stop her (either because they're Lawful or because the Lawful gods would get on their case if they did, I'm guessing).

She doesn't have the strength to force things to go her way (since all the dwarves keep dying honourably) so breaking the rules would just make her own situation even worse.

At this point I think we're more likely to see Hel gnashing her teeth and putting her last hopes on the remaining vampires than any real plot twists or held back plans. From the beginning this has been a desperation gambit from Hel (there wouldn't even have been an opportunity for her if it wasn't for Xykon threatening the world with the Snarl, which I doubt she orchestrated herself). While she has clearly been working on it (convincing other gods to vote yes, preparing for several possibilities) it is still at the core a desperation gambit.

I doubt Hel had many plans for if her strongest servant were to bite the dust, and Greg only died because he got sneak attacked in the feels at the wrong moment.

[Particle_Man]

Call Answering. Can you explain the pun on this one; I'll probably smack my forehead when you do, but this one went over my head. Is it to do with Durkon praising Minrah over her being in the fight after she explains how useless she feels for having died in the battle?

Call answering is a synonym for voice mail. It also refers to Minrah distinguishing herself by answering the call to fight evil.

Now I wonder if there is going to be a strip called call forwarding and whether that explains the unusual afterlife situation.

[Particle_Man]

Hel’s plot would have worked were it not for her premature villain gloating.

[Doug Lampert]

In a society with raise dead/speak with dead/resurrection, you'd think that would be well known, unless the experience varies deeply according to belief (which could well happen), but even that would be common knowledge then.

Maybe the knowledge diffusion technologies are also deeply pre-modern ;-)

Speak with dead is useless for this, it does NOT let you speak with the soul, it lets you speak with the body.


You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive.

If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all.

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

Resurrection and Raise Dead are also of limited use, you don't retain full memories when returned to life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

Plane Shift is the relevant spell, and how many people are going to Plane Shift to the waiting area?

[Worldsong]

Resurrection and Raise Dead are also of limited use, you don't retain full memories when returned to life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

Plane Shift is the relevant spell, and how many people are going to Plane Shift to the waiting area?

With the current information there's a fair argument that the memories you retain from your dead period are from the waiting area, with everything beyond the golden gates becoming blurred (but still allowing for sparks of inspiration).

If we're lucky Thor/Loki/Odin provides Durkon some useful information BEFORE he enters the afterlife proper, so when he gets resurrected he can use that information.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Speak with dead is useless for this, it does NOT let you speak with the soul, it lets you speak with the body.



Resurrection and Raise Dead are also of limited use, you don't retain full memories when returned to life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html).

Plane Shift is the relevant spell, and how many people are going to Plane Shift to the waiting area?

They don't have to. They just have to talk to someone who went through the waiting area.

[Jasdoif]

Call Answering. Can you explain the pun on this one; I'll probably smack my forehead when you do, but this one went over my head."Answering the Call" is related to the stages of the Hero's Journey: leaving known, normal circumstances to pursue unfamiliar adventure.

It may also be a self-reference to #1106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html)'s title of "Answering the Callback".

[The Shadow]

Rich is being uncharacteristically coy about the tower. I'm guessing we're headed for a major reveal - about the Snarl, about the planet inside the world, or something similar.

[skaddix]

With the current information there's a fair argument that the memories you retain from your dead period are from the waiting area, with everything beyond the golden gates becoming blurred (but still allowing for sparks of inspiration).

If we're lucky Thor/Loki/Odin provides Durkon some useful information BEFORE he enters the afterlife proper, so when he gets resurrected he can use that information.

Actually I think you can remember at least if you talk to a God...since Jirix made it past the waiting room and remembers that conversation.

[Oxenstierna]

They got side-tracked to the Astral Plane and it's secretly Xykon's secret fortress thingie. I seem to remember that had some towers.

I like this idea. Not sure it’s the case this time but it would be interesting. One of the gods could have pulled the dwarves aside to give them that ‘reveal’ in the effort to ultimately defeat Xykon. The lich is clearly gunning for godhood with his obsession on power. Would all the gods know Redcloak swapped the phylactery? Maybe there’s some other reason to alert the Order to the Astral fortress.

[Throknor]

I doubt Hel had many plans for if her strongest servant were to bite the dust, and Greg only died because he got sneak attacked in the feels at the wrong moment.

Greg got himself killed because he made it personal against Roy. He could have told Roy he was in a completely different place and had a path of spawn and dominated dwarves to tie him up while he went to the council that Hel actually cared about. And yes, Hilgya's spying might have given that away but my point is his plan directly placed him in a place to be defeated. Durkon was working on timing his plan to a moment of vulnerability that might never have come otherwise. More importantly, he (Greg) would probably have had less interaction with Durkon and the memories and not ever have gotten to that point. At least, he could have succeeded first.


Actually I think you can remember at least if you talk to a God...since Jirix made it past the waiting room and remembers that conversation.
I have to wonder if what he remembers ...

... was an implanted vision
... shows that the Dark One is gathering goblins (either all or just worthy ones) before they get judged. After all, once they start their equivalent of the mountain they would care less for mortal concerns
... shows that The Dark One being 'godded' by goblinoids' reverence created something like the honorable/Valhalla deal with dwarves. "Each soldier a goblinoid that had died in loyal service to our people" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)


If the third one it bodes well for Thor or even Odin being able to give Durkon a quick message. If he gets there before being raised, of course.

[greenfunkman]

They died in Odin's banquet hall, didn't they? Perhaps they are in the realm of Odin?

The priests of Odin should be arriving in a few hours, maybe they will rez them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They died in a restaurant run by Odin worshipers. If you get killed eating Thai, it has no effect on which afterlife you go to.

And it looks like TDO calls Acheron home. That plane is all war all the time.

[greenfunkman]

And it looks like TDO calls Acheron home. That plane is all war all the time.

Is TDO = That Dude Odin?

[The MunchKING]

The Dark One

[Knaight]

Not to go too RL on you, but a religious fundamentalists arrives to a town, exterminates everyone in the local temple of a major religion plus a bunch of civilians that were in the locality and you don't think that qualifies as death and destruction? Far lesser massacres make headlines for days.

Grey Wolf

Don't forget the plan to assassinate the civil authorities, which is potentially still underway.

[Rrmcklin]

Sorry, never mind.

[factotum]

Not to go too RL on you, but a religious fundamentalists arrives to a town, exterminates everyone in the local temple of a major religion plus a bunch of civilians that were in the locality and you don't think that qualifies as death and destruction?

It clearly does. What it does *not* necessarily qualify as is "Death and destruction for us all", which is the actual wording of the prophecy--those three little extra words change the meaning a heck of a lot, especially since the prophecy came from a priest of Odin, not one of Thor, and no priest of Odin has been killed so far.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Point of order: We don't know what the actual text of the prophecy is. Just what the HPoO said, which is already a paraphrase.

[Throknor]

It clearly does. What it does *not* necessarily qualify as is "Death and destruction for us all", which is the actual wording of the prophecy--those three little extra words change the meaning a heck of a lot, especially since the prophecy came from a priest of Odin, not one of Thor, and no priest of Odin has been killed so far.

If I say I'm coming over with a pie for you then show up at your house with a pie for you and you aren't there I'm still there with a pie for you. Even if you never come home again to receive the pie, even if the pie is thrown out before you get home, I have done what I said I would - brought over a pie for you. I never promised you'd actually eat it anymore than Odin's prophesy meant that Durkon would actually kill and destroy them all. He brought Hel's plan to kill and destroy them all - "Death and destruction for us all". Whether it succeeds or not is irrelevant to the prophesy.

(Does anyone else have deja vu about word counts, or is it just me?)

[Ironsmith]

If I say I'm coming over with a pie for you then show up at your house with a pie for you and you aren't there I'm still there with a pie for you. Even if you never come home again to receive the pie, even if the pie is thrown out before you get home, I have done what I said I would - brought over a pie for you. I never promised you'd actually eat it anymore than Odin's prophesy meant that Durkon would actually kill and destroy them all. He brought Hel's plan to kill and destroy them all - "Death and destruction for us all". Whether it succeeds or not is irrelevant to the prophesy.

(Does anyone else have deja vu about word counts, or is it just me?)

I like this explanation. I'd also just like to add that, while Durkon* certainly brought death and destruction for the dwarven people, which may still be underway thanks to the Exarch, the prophecy doesn't say anything about Durkon being one of several people who stop the intent to destroy from succeeding.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It clearly does. What it does *not* necessarily qualify as is "Death and destruction for us all", which is the actual wording of the prophecy--those three little extra words change the meaning a heck of a lot, especially since the prophecy came from a priest of Odin, not one of Thor, and no priest of Odin has been killed so far.

You don't know that the Priest of Odin said "for us all" and not "for you all" when he told the Priest of Thor. Since your assumption is causing you to be concerned about a plot point, you really should change the assumption rather than complain about the prophecy not being fulfilled to the expectation set by that assumption.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

You don't know that the Priest of Odin said "for us all" and not "for you all" when he told the Priest of Thor. Since your assumption is causing you to call into question a plot point, you really should change the assumption rather than complain about the prophecy not being fulfilled to the expectation set by that assumption.

Grey Wolf

Since Hodak, priest of Thor, was by his own admission a bit of a jerk, we shouldn't put exaggeration past him, either.

[Emperor Time]

Hilgya's ex-husband Ivan is free. He seemed nice.

Possible horrifying thought: The Snarl is loose and killing gods and dead souls? Thor and Hel are both dead already? Valhalla and Hel are empty?

Possible uplifting thought: Instead of resurrection, Durkon is upgraded to a Saint or to a deathless like Risen Martyr or even to an outright Celestial and put back in the game that way?

But that can only happen if Kraagor's gate was moved to the plane of the gods. And if that the case then it means that the other gods thought the Dark One was bluffing about releasing the Snarl if they didn't improve the standings for goblin kind. And if that the case too then it too late for every remaining god which means that everyone loses.

[Mordar]

You don't know that the Priest of Odin said "for us all" and not "for you all" when he told the Priest of Thor. Since your assumption is causing you to call into question a plot point, you really should change the assumption rather than complain about the prophecy not being fulfilled to the expectation set by that assumption.

Grey Wolf

Kind of bold, I think, to assume that everything is settled, that the prophecy is complete and there isn't still something awful big in the works...

- M

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Kind of bold, I think, to assume that everything is settled, that the prophecy is complete and there isn't still something awful big in the works...

- M

And if and when that happens, I will reassess my own assumptions. But then, I'm not the one worrying that Greg didn't cause enough death and destruction, when by a straightforward reading of the prophecy, he clearly did.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

I like this explanation. I'd also just like to add that, while Durkon* certainly brought death and destruction for the dwarven people, which may still be underway thanks to the Exarch, the prophecy doesn't say anything about Durkon being one of several people who stop the intent to destroy from succeeding.

It (apparently) didn't say anything else at all, let alone whether it would succeed or fail. To over-extend my metaphor, I also didn't say anything about when or if the pie would be eaten - just that it would exist and who it was for.

[The MunchKING]

But that can only happen if Kraagor's gate was moved to the plane of the gods. And if that the case then it means that the other gods thought the Dark One was bluffing about releasing the Snarl if they didn't improve the standings for goblin kind.

Or he didn't Ultimatum them, and just went for the deicide right off the bat, and the other Gods were waiting for Kraagor's Gate to get blown up, not realizing the Dark One could move the Rift.

[Jasdoif]

Kind of bold, I think, to assume that everything is settled, that the prophecy is complete and there isn't still something awful big in the works...And if/when "something awful big in the works" happens, would it stop being bold to assume that "everything is settled" then? Or could there still be "something awful big in the works"? And if/when that happens, would it stop being bold to assume that "everything is settled" then?

The whole "that could fulfill the prophecy, but are we sure that was the fulfillment of the prophecy?" perspective doesn't end. The winning move to that game is not to play it.

[Peelee]

They died in a restaurant run by Odin worshipers. If you get killed eating Thai, it has no effect on which afterlife you go to.

Hmmmm...brb off to form a new religion.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Honestly, not the first time I've seen that response to one of my posts.

[Peelee]

Well that's just impressive.

[Particle_Man]

OOTS has already done the "oh, that wasn't the real prophecy" with Roy's Dad, so I expect that Rich won't go to that well again. Thus likely the prophecy is pretty straight forward and fanged.

[Takver]

This tower they're apparently walking toward really worries me. Nothing good happens in towers. The Tower of Babel. The Two Towers. The Tower tarot card (one of the worst in the deck). The Tower of London. The Lightning-Struck Tower in Harry Potter.

Taken together with that grey sky so different from the sunny blue of Roy's afterlife, and the constant refusal in the last two strips to show more than a small space around the characters, in any panel.

We're in for a surprise, and it could be a nasty one.

[The MunchKING]

I counter with Command Tower, Isolated Watchtower, and whatever the other Watchtower is that lets you stop hexproof stuff. :p

[Dausuul]

Possible horrifying thought: The Snarl is loose and killing gods and dead souls? Thor and Hel are both dead already? Valhalla and Hel are empty?
We've seen Hel alive and active within the last few hours (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html) (in comic), and she was talking about how Loki and Thor would have her to pay, implying that they too are still up and kicking.

[Takver]

I'm telling you, a mentioned but unseen tower, in an otherwise-featureless and grey afterlife, is not good. All of these repetitively same-size, same visual information panels are leading up to a big, probably unpleasant reveal.

[brian 333]

I'm telling you, a mentioned but unseen tower, in an otherwise-featureless and grey afterlife, is not good. All of these repetitively same-size, same visual information panels are leading up to a big, probably unpleasant reveal.

It's the foot of the Bifrost Bridge, I think. If we meet Heimdal it's that. If instead we meet a female giant, they need to turn around and go the other way.

[Knaight]

And if and when that happens, I will reassess my own assumptions. But then, I'm not the one worrying that Greg didn't cause enough death and destruction, when by a straightforward reading of the prophecy, he clearly did.

Grey Wolf

I think you might be misreading it. There's no worry that Greg didn't cause enough death and destruction in the sense of a plot hole. There's a worry in the sense that the prophecy suggests there's more to come.

[Lizard Lord]

I don't know if they will raise Durkon before dealing with the vampire threat at least. They already have a high level cleric ally and if there is a chance that the vampires can still influence the clan than the Order doesn't have much time to waste.