Golem Crystal

[ackmondual]

Is it possible to change golem Crystal back into her human self? Strictly speaking physically. If so, how much would it have cost in terms of how much it cost to turn her into a golem in the first place?

[TRH]

Is it possible to change golem Crystal back into her human self? Strictly speaking physically. If so, how much would it have cost in terms of how much it cost to turn her into a golem in the first place?

I don't see why not. Roy was turned into a golem. You just need to destroy the golem and then use Resurrection, apparently. Of course, that was before she was dropped into lava and her remains incinerated.

[brian 333]

Is it possible to change golem Crystal back into her human self? Strictly speaking physically. If so, how much would it have cost in terms of how much it cost to turn her into a golem in the first place?

Since all the remains from her physical body are mixed into lava now, (unless Golem-Guy kept a sample,) it would require a True Resurrection spell which requires 25,000gp in diamonds and a 17th level cleric.

Nobody in Stickverse liked Crystal, so who would front the diamonds? Much less the cost to hire a level 17 NPC cleric.

Plus, for 25k, I'd rather spend 10k on Therkla. Not only is she a better assassin, she's better company. Crystal is such a whiner.

[FrankNorman]

An interesting question is whether "Golem Crystal" actually was Crystal in golem form, or merely a golem with a simulation of Crystal's personality, provided by whatever kind of elemental spirit animates golems.
Grubwiggler made it plain that he did not do necromancy as such - he did not make undead.

My take on it - Crystal died and went to the Chaotic Evil afterlife when she was killed by Haley, and did not come back. The golem wasn't really her.

[hroþila]

An interesting question is whether "Golem Crystal" actually was Crystal in golem form, or merely a golem with a simulation of Crystal's personality, provided by whatever kind of elemental spirit animates golems.
Grubwiggler made it plain that he did not do necromancy as such - he did not make undead.

My take on it - Crystal died and went to the Chaotic Evil afterlife when she was killed by Haley, and did not come back. The golem wasn't really her.
So you could say she might not have been Crystal per se, but she had Crystal's body and all her joys and sorrows, so in the end she was her. :smallwink:

[Emperor Time]

Since all the remains from her physical body are mixed into lava now, (unless Golem-Guy kept a sample,) it would require a True Resurrection spell which requires 25,000gp in diamonds and a 17th level cleric.

Nobody in Stickverse liked Crystal, so who would front the diamonds? Much less the cost to hire a level 17 NPC cleric.

Plus, for 25k, I'd rather spend 10k on Therkla. Not only is she a better assassin, she's better company. Crystal is such a whiner.

But Therkla wouldn't want to return unless Elan return her feelings.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She may have gotten over that crush in the meantime. But the obvious problem is having to find that small island in the middle of the ocean again to get to her body.

[Snails]

An interesting question is whether "Golem Crystal" actually was Crystal in golem form, or merely a golem with a simulation of Crystal's personality, provided by whatever kind of elemental spirit animates golems.
Grubwiggler made it plain that he did not do necromancy as such - he did not make undead.

My take on it - Crystal died and went to the Chaotic Evil afterlife when she was killed by Haley, and did not come back. The golem wasn't really her.

While I think that is a sensible enough take on golems, it opens a similar can of worms as do vampires. Can I take remove a Golem Crystal finger, resurrect Crystal, then have both Crystal and Crystal Golem in my adventuring party? Can I create more Crystal Golems this way?

There is no right or wrong answer, just like there is no right or wrong answer for vampires, but there is a certain attraction to the position that the soul is trapped in the body when these kinds of magicks are applied.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It greatly simplifies things, yes. Also an issue with clones and simulacra.

If your group likes dealing with issues like this, however, it can be a lot of fun to wrestle with 'which Bob is the real Bob?'

[Reboot]

While I think that is a sensible enough take on golems, it opens a similar can of worms as do vampires. Can I take remove a Golem Crystal finger, resurrect Crystal, then have both Crystal and Crystal Golem in my adventuring party? Can I create more Crystal Golems this way?.

If that was possible, they could have just broken one of Bone Golem Roy's fingers off, used that for the resurrection and ignored the inconvenient bone golem thereafter. Clearly, his soul wasn't trapped, after all, and yet they needed to destroy the golem first anyway!

[Goblin_Priest]

If that was possible, they could have just broken one of Bone Golem Roy's fingers off, used that for the resurrection and ignored the inconvenient bone golem thereafter. Clearly, his soul wasn't trapped, after all, and yet they needed to destroy the golem first anyway!

Well... maybe the easiest way to chip a part off that bone golem was to destroy it?

[Ron Miel]

Since all the remains from her physical body are mixed into lava now, (unless Golem-Guy kept a sample,)

A golem requires parts from 6 different bodies. and only a small part of each body is used. They only used Crystal's head for the golem. The rest of her corpse wasn't used.
So she presumably could be raised, if anyone wanted to.

There's probably nobody left that cares.

[Snails]

Well... maybe the easiest way to chip a part off that bone golem was to destroy it?

I suppose a handwavy argument could be made that a bit of a golem is a bit of a golem first, if the golem is still a "living" creature. And thus not a legal target for the Resurrection.

Roy's experience may or may not map to Crystal's because the Bone Golem seemed basically mindless, so there was no obvious reason to expect Roy's soul to be trapped in there.

It is a reasonable guess that Crystal Golem contained Crystal's soul. Obviously that is a guess that could be wrong.

[Jannoire]

She may have gotten over that crush in the meantime. But the obvious problem is having to find that small island in the middle of the ocean again to get to her body.

If I remember correctly... There's a big effing statue of a devil standing on said island. Shouldn't be that hard to find.

[Mike Havran]

An interesting question is whether "Golem Crystal" actually was Crystal in golem form, or merely a golem with a simulation of Crystal's personality, provided by whatever kind of elemental spirit animates golems.
Grubwiggler made it plain that he did not do necromancy as such - he did not make undead.

My take on it - Crystal died and went to the Chaotic Evil afterlife when she was killed by Haley, and did not come back. The golem wasn't really her.The more I think of this, the more likely it seems to me.

If the Golem contained Crystal's soul, either the body was a prison like in Soul Bind spell, but that is probably way too difficult for somebody like Grubwiggler (even Soul Bind works only a short while after the actual death) to achieve, or Grubby managed to trick Crystal's soul to think she was being raised, but I doubt he is a Divine magic expert.

Most likely he just didn't wipe Crystal's mind/brain when he used the body/head for golem, and the pain Crystal Golem felt was due to collapsing personality.

[Dr.Zero]

I think the need to destroy the golem is some sort of artistic license (aka house rule) from the author, to create some uniformity with the undead (and don't mess too much with not D&D readers' minds).

While, indeed, it is possible that Crystal has undergone some special treatment which bound her soul to the golem, this was certainly not the case for Roy.

[Goblin_Priest]

I still think it's largely for practical reasons. I'd also tend to err towards Golem Crystal not being Crystal, and not having anything to do with her soul. The golem imprints some personality from the dead brain, but has no power over its soul. So people could resurrect her, but there's just no one who would care to. Just as the OotS could probably have resurrected Roy without first killing the bone golem, it'd just have been extremely inconvenient to do so, and destroying the golem first was the much more practical means of achieving their goal.

The hostage soul thing is probably an undead-specific thing, if not a vampire-specific thing. I think Rich said vampires were special in this regard, but honestly, this soul-captive thing is the best lore explanation I've ever heard for justifying that "undead are always evil" and "creating undead is an abominable act". Because if you take the soul kidnap issue out of the equation, undeath is largely comparable to organ donation, at its core. There's also no other given explanation for why one wouldn't be able to resurrect people that were turned undead.

[Snails]

Poetically speaking, soul-trapping is towards one end of the spectrum a common general principle that a body must be treated with respect for the soul to successfully find its proper destination.

As for Crystal Golem, her clear memories of her past life puts her outside the main traditions for golems:

(1) The kabbalistic golem is basically a magical machine that probably has nothing like a soul -- it has something like a mind that has intentions but only has the faintest semblance of humanity.

(2) The pygmalion of greek tradition is a statue of a woman that is transformed by the gods into an actual real woman -- she obviously has a soul.

(3) Olympia of Tales of Hoffman is a machine that simply fools someone into believing she is real -- she has no soul.

(4) The Monster of Mary Shelley completely lacks any memory of his past life, which is one of the drivers for him expecting his maker to help him understand who he is. As far as we can tell though, he presumably has a soul, but he is physically made up of a bunch of parts from deceased "donors" with no apparent connection to those donors. (Although the Monster learns to move about and learns language skills quickly, so perhaps he is drawing on past memories unconsciously.)

My personal opinion: Crystal Golem is actually Crystal. Weird magic involving corpses is weird magic that can potentially interfere with the soul's journey, regardless of whether any of that magic carries the necromancy label. Crystal Golem is an extreme case where interference does so happen to occur. The Giant is not going to clarify any of this because it is unimportant to the story, as Crystal's contribution is over. We can imagine Crystal soul's experience is like Roy's or not -- doesn't matter.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'd also add that "Trap the Soul" is a lvl 8 (edited, misremembered) spell with a hefty cost. If a whole bunch of much lesser means can also trap the soul, what's the point of that spell?

[skim172]

Based on Roy's experience, it seems the soul is entirely divorced from the body in the case of a golem. He was having all sorts of fun on Cloud Nine, completely unaware of what his body was up to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0601.html)

So the soul isn't trapped in the body. The rule that the body must be destroyed first therefore isn't about a person's soul. Maybe, the physical body itself contains some unique signature that makes it distinct. A unique pattern (something unrelated to the person's soul) associated with the physical form and you're not allowed to have more than one intact body with the same signature in one universe.

Or an alternate explanation: Let's say the golems in this universe are created by filling a physical body with another "thing" that's not quite a soul, but is very similar to it. Something that acts as a placeholder. Not a spirit in itself, but made of the same material. Perhaps that's Grubwriggler's craft - he's a "soul-stuff" smith. And since a version of Roy's body is technically "occupied" by this soul-like placeholder, the Resurrection spell will fail until that occupant is removed and Roy's unique body-signature is unattached and free once more.

Developing on that, perhaps it's possible for an advanced "soul-stuff" smith to construct a golem as normal, but instead of installing one of these artificial placeholders, he instead uses necromantic magic to bind an actual soul and then install the soul in the golem, creating a self-aware golem. And that's what happened with Crystal.


(Of course, the meta explanation is that it prevents players from exploiting golems in order to make an army of autonomous copies of themselves - but it's fun to speculate on fantasy science. :smallsmile:)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'd also add that "Trap the Soul" is a lvl 9 spell with a hefty cost. If a whole bunch of much lesser means can also trap the soul, what's the point of that spell?

Fewer limitations compared to, say, Magic Jar.

[Snails]

I'd also add that "Trap the Soul" is a lvl 9 spell with a hefty cost. If a whole bunch of much lesser means can also trap the soul, what's the point of that spell?

Because the lesser and cheaper magic only works on a already defeated/dead enemy where you are in possession of the corpse.

A bit of context: Practically speaking such a person can only be revived by allies who have access to 9th level magic, even when no other magic is in the picture. Whadya do when your friend is died, and you scampered to save your own sorry ass? True Resurrection.

Trap the Soul is effective against live and kicking random enemies in the midst of combat (plus there are some sneakier options).

[Fish]

It’s pretty simple.

Crystal is Rich’s illustration and foreshadowing of the Durkula resolution: as Grubwiggler says, “You can’t get the emotions you want without also getting the ones you don’t want.” It’s a package deal.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Damn. Nice catch Fish.

[JeenLeen]

On the question of True Resurrection, I think the Giant has commented that the spell doesn't exist in his setting. Hence things like Nale being truly perma-dead after his corpse was turned to dust.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It must exist, because the characters discuss trying to get someone to cast it. Rich just really dislikes it for wrecking the narrative process (see also V barring Conjuration so no teleports).

[Peelee]

If I remember correctly... There's a big effing statue of a devil standing on said island. Shouldn't be that hard to find.

The Arctic Ocean, Earth's smallest ocean, is 5.427 million mi². The big effing statue is, generously, a quarter mile high (that makes roughly a fifth taller than the Eiffel Tower, for point of reference).

Unless you have a map to it, I'm gonna call that hard to find.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think Jannoire meant in a "cast Locate Object" manner.

[Peelee]

I think Jannoire meant in a "cast Locate Object" manner.

Well now don't I feel like an ass?

[brian 333]

A golem requires parts from 6 different bodies. and only a small part of each body is used. They only used Crystal's head for the golem. The rest of her corpse wasn't used.
So she presumably could be raised, if anyone wanted to.

There's probably nobody left that cares.

True, but what dud Grubby do with the leftovers? Five other golems?

Raise Dead can't be used due to the 1 day/level limit, and Crystal has been dead more than 60 days.

Resurrection might work if a piece of the corpse which was a piece of the corpse at the time of her death is available. It costs 10k plus caster fees. You could hire a better assassin cheaper virtually anywhere, but hey, if you want Crystal and have the diamonds, go for it. (Note that I once wasted a Wish reviving a dead familiar, so what do I know?)

True Resurection would work. It costs 25k plus caster fees. Finding a 17th level cleric would be the hard part, and convincing her to cast the spell might require a side-quest.

Limited Wish, Miracle, and Wish would all work, but would be pricey.


Now, the question has been asked about Resurrecting multiple versions of the same person. Let's say I have the remains of a hand and separate it into individual bones. Lots of spare parts, right? But Raise Dead and its derivatives only work on dead creatures, and once one knuckle has been used to raise her, that spell can't be used to raise of resurrect another because she is no longer dead. Even a dozen simultaneous castings won't raise more than 1 because as soon as that first one becomes alive, all those extra pieces of bone are not a part of her at the time of death, (because, you know, alive.)

The spell you are looking for is Clone, (first edition version,) (http://pandaria.rpgworlds.info/cant/rules/adnd_spells.htm#Clone)which creates a being exactly like the original. Bonus: you can make more clones! So, there is the potential of hundreds of clones of Crystal running around, each one thinking they are the original and all the rest are imposters. This might create a Highlander situation. Heck, it would create a Highlander situation!

But we know how that ends. (With a sequel and a TV show that kills the franchise.)

[Peelee]

True, but what dud Grubby do with the leftovers? Five other golems?

Waste not, want not.

[Benjamin Vazque]

I've always read the "parts of six bodies" to mean that the maker needs to sort through six corpses to find enough working parts for the new body. The remaining parts of the six bodies simply wouldn't be good enough for use.

That does raise the question of whether, say, two corpses would be enough if they were freshly dead, although if you had two freshly dead corpses there are probably better options for turning them into useful servants.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

[Fish]

I presumed it was a riff on Frankenstein’s monster — cobbled together from parts, bolted and stitched together. Of course, a being of that stature would have an enormous schwanstucker.

[KorvinStarmast]

I presumed it was a riff on Frankenstein’s monster — cobbled together from parts, bolted and stitched together. Of course, a being of that stature would have an enormous schwanstucker. That goes without saying. (Does that inform Haley's reaction in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)) or is that more surprise and "Whoa, I wasn't ready for that!"

[Fish]

I don’t know, but we missed having a scene where Haley and Crystal do “Puttin’ on the Ritz.”

[Rrmcklin]

My take on the "Was it really Crystal?" question was: does it matter? Nothing is actually changed if we assume it was really her and not just her "personality imprint" or whatever, and something like that is never specifically mentioned, so that's what I go with.

If it wasn't then Crystal was just in the Chaotic Evil afterlife, it it was then Crystal is still in the Chaotic Evil afterlife now. It affects absolutely nothing, and the question of golems is very unlikely to ever come up again.

[Kish]

Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57). With Bozzok. They will eventually be joined by Grubwiggler.

Potential for amusing interactions there...

[JennTora]

I think maybe I've figured it out.


The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm

Crystal is an unusual golem, but since this is how golem's work in 3.5 d&d it's probably the case. So it was likely an elemental spirit with crystal's memories. It was in pain because that's probably what happens when you paralyze a creature and stick it in a foreign body and force it to control that body against its will. I wonder if it's actually a subtle jab from The Giant at the idea that making a golem is somehow less evil than making an undead, despite the overwhelmingly evil act that binding an elemental in such a way should be.

[Emanick]

I think maybe I've figured it out.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm

Crystal is an unusual golem, but since this is how golem's work in 3.5 d&d it's probably the case. So it was likely an elemental spirit with crystal's memories. It was in pain because that's probably what happens when you paralyze a creature and stick it in a foreign body and force it to control that body against its will. I wonder if it's actually a subtle jab from The Giant at the idea that making a golem is somehow less evil than making an undead, despite the overwhelmingly evil act that binding an elemental in such a way should be.

To be fair, if the elemental spirit is non-sapient, it's not necessarily evil to imprison it. Depending on its intelligence, it would be like tying up a dog, a newt, or even a bacterium.

True, there are no non-sapient elementals in the Monster Manual that I recall (though it's been a while since I gave away my copy), but since I don't recall the relevant spells or the creation of a golem ever being described as Evil, I'm going to headcanon that most elementals are nonsapient.

[JennTora]

To be fair, if the elemental spirit is non-sapient, it's not necessarily evil to imprison it. Depending on its intelligence, it would be like tying up a dog, a newt, or even a bacterium.

True, there are no non-sapient elementals in the Monster Manual that I recall (though it's been a while since I gave away my copy), but since I don't recall the relevant spells or the creation of a golem ever being described as Evil, I'm going to headcanon that most elementals are nonsapient.

More likely, it was an oversight that slipped through multiple editions, because the developers just never thought of the implications of using elementals to make golems.
And I don't think tying up a dog to make it control a big stompy magicky robot is something a non evil person would do without a really good reason either.

[Dr.Zero]

To be fair, if the elemental spirit is non-sapient, it's not necessarily evil to imprison it. Depending on its intelligence, it would be like tying up a dog, a newt, or even a bacterium.

True, there are no non-sapient elementals in the Monster Manual that I recall (though it's been a while since I gave away my copy), but since I don't recall the relevant spells or the creation of a golem ever being described as Evil, I'm going to headcanon that most elementals are nonsapient.

I'd say that the description answers to the question: "The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator." (Bold mine)

(It seems to be the same discussion people have usually on the "dominate" spells. They are not evil per se, but to me they surely look like kinda evil if you use them to get a slave. In this case there is no other purpose but getting a slave from an explicitly stated unwilling spirit, so, for me...)

[hamishspence]

It may be akin to Eberron ships:

http://keith-baker.com/lightning-round-2-26-18-languages-elementals-and-pirates/


What are the moral issues with binding elementals into Khyber dragonshards? How sentient are they?

There’s no easy answers in Eberron. The elemental binders of Zilargo claim that bound elementals are perfectly content; that elementals don’t experience the passage of time the way humans do. All they wish is to express their elemental nature, and that’s what they do through the binding. The Zil argue that elementals don’t even understand that they ARE bound, and that binding elementals is in fact MORE humane than using beasts of burden. An elemental doesn’t feel hunger, exhaustion, or pain; all a fire elemental wants to do is BURN, and it’s just as content to do that in a ring of fire as it is in Fernia.

On the other hand, an Ashbound druid will tell you that this is a fundamental disruption of the natural order. And any random person might say “When a bound elemental is released, it usually goes on a rampage. That means it was unhappy, right?”

Maybe… or maybe not. In my opinion, the “raw” elementals — the “fire elemental” as opposed to the more anthropomorphic salamander, efreeti, or azer — are extremely alien. They don’t experience existence in the same way as creatures of the material plane. They are immortals who exist almost entirely in the moment, making no plans for the future or worrying about the past. My views are pretty close to the description from the 5E Monster Manual: “A wild spirit of elemental force has no desire except to course through the element of its native plane… these elemental spirits have no society or culture, and little sense of being.”

When the fire elemental is released, it usually WILL go on a rampage. Because what it wants more than anything is to burn and to be surrounded by fire… so it will attempt to CREATE as much fire as possible. If it burns your house down, there’s no malice involved; it literally doesn’t understand the concept of a house, or for that matter the concept of YOU. In my short story “Principles of Fire” one of the characters interrogates a bound air elemental; he advises a colleague that the elemental doesn’t really understand its surroundings, and sees humans as, essentially, blobs of water.

So: there’s no absolute answer. Some people are certain that the elementals are entirely happy, and others are certain that it’s a barbaric and inhumane practice. What I can say is that MOST of the people in the Five Nations don’t think about it at all; to them, it’s no different from yoking an ox or using a bonfire to cook dinner. If you want to create a story based on a radical group that has proof that bound elementals are suffering, create that story. But the default is that there are extreme views on both sides, but that the majority of people just ride the airship without giving a thought to whether the ring has been unjustly imprisoned.

Regarding "is the golem Crystal"

My take on the "Was it really Crystal?" question was: does it matter? Nothing is actually changed if we assume it was really her and not just her "personality imprint" or whatever, and something like that is never specifically mentioned, so that's what I go with.

I get the impression that the intent is that, while it may not be necromancy per se, it may still be "Crystal's soul in construct body":


Crystal dies the first time because she can't help but continue to threaten Haley even as they have a truce, and the second time because she can't help being a sadistic killer.

Bozzok was wrong, because he told Crystal that she was incapable of thinking for herself. This was then proven objectively untrue; she made several decisions in succession that were her own, possibly for the first time in her adult life.

That she chose poorly with some of them is not really relevant.

Malack certainly learned and changed over the course of his undeath, or else he would never have been able to manage the complex scheme that he started with Tarquin. Arguably, if Malack were incapable of learning, he would never have "learned" to underestimate Nale, thus negating the impact of his demise. Heck, Crystal just "learned" that Bozzok was bad for her and turned on him, something she never managed to do in her entire mortal life. Some of the characters may believe that only living things can learn, but it's not a thematic statement, or even especially accurate.

[martianmister]

I think maybe I've figured it out.



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm

Crystal is an unusual golem, but since this is how golem's work in 3.5 d&d it's probably the case. So it was likely an elemental spirit with crystal's memories. It was in pain because that's probably what happens when you paralyze a creature and stick it in a foreign body and force it to control that body against its will. I wonder if it's actually a subtle jab from The Giant at the idea that making a golem is somehow less evil than making an undead, despite the overwhelmingly evil act that binding an elemental in such a way should be.

I don't think so. What you said is how Grubwiggler usually create these golems, just like how he created Roy's golem by binding an earth elemental to it. Crystal's golem is different because instead of an elemental spirit, he bound Crystal's own soul to create it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It may be akin to Eberron ships:

http://keith-baker.com/lightning-round-2-26-18-languages-elementals-and-pirates/
Ooh, thanks for that link; Baker's take on that is very similar to mine in re elementals.

[hamishspence]

In 3.5 at least, the existence of "Elemental Monoliths" (smarter but weaker than Primal Elementals, and the rulers of elemental communities) does suggest they have more in the way of society/culture than in 5e.

[Emanick]

More likely, it was an oversight that slipped through multiple editions, because the developers just never thought of the implications of using elementals to make golems.
And I don't think tying up a dog to make it control a big stompy magicky robot is something a non evil person would do without a really good reason either.

I agree with this. I included the dog in my brief list of animals (and bacteria, I guess) to show the range of possibilities in the morality of imprisoning nonsapient beings.

It’s interesting that this oversight has been pretty consistent between editions (with some fascinating exceptions, as other people have pointed out). I’m not too troubled by it, though, since it doesn’t say much about humanity that we find it difficult to empathize with elemental forces.

[JennTora]

It may be akin to Eberron ships:

http://keith-baker.com/lightning-round-2-26-18-languages-elementals-and-pirates/


That's very interesting, but then I wonder why a lot of golems have a chance at going berserk if elementals are content in the golem body.



Regarding "is the golem Crystal"


I get the impression that the intent is that, while it may not be necromancy per se, it may still be "Crystal's soul in construct body":

I either forgot about or didn't know about that Giant quote. It does sound like he meant for it to be crystal's soul, barring the highly unlikely event that he's got some other role for crystal's soul in the story and is doing a similar fakeout to what he did with malack and Durkon of course, but I think I'd put money on the next Powerball before on that.

It makes me wonder how grubwiggler got crystal's soul with his apparent disdain for necromancy though. Maybe it was a collaboration with the church of Loki. Or maybe he was lying to I forget her name about never using necromancy, since he was trying to make a sale and she clearly expressed a disgust with undead.

[SaintRidley]

It makes me wonder how grubwiggler got crystal's soul with his apparent disdain for necromancy though. Maybe it was a collaboration with the church of Loki. Or maybe he was lying to I forget her name about never using necromancy, since he was trying to make a sale and she clearly expressed a disgust with undead.

My suspicion is some kind of application of the principles of normal golem-making but with a mortal soul instead of an elemental spirit. If the disdain for necromancy is genuine, it might be just close enough to normal for Grubwiggler to be okay with experimenting. Or, as you note, he might have been just trying to make a sale in that case. Either way, I think it's definitely Crystal's soul, and I suspect that her predicament is a demonstration of what existence for the elemental spirit in a normal golem might be like.

[Mike Havran]

My suspicion is some kind of application of the principles of normal golem-making but with a mortal soul instead of an elemental spirit. If the disdain for necromancy is genuine, it might be just close enough to normal for Grubwiggler to be okay with experimenting. Or, as you note, he might have been just trying to make a sale in that case. Either way, I think it's definitely Crystal's soul, and I suspect that her predicament is a demonstration of what existence for the elemental spirit in a normal golem might be like.Shouldnt such magic be beyond Grubwiggler? Soul Bind is a 9th level necromancy and requires taking action almost immediately after death, while Grubwiggler had no such time.

[hamishspence]

Shouldnt such magic be beyond Grubwiggler? Soul Bind is a 9th level necromancy and requires taking action almost immediately after death, while Grubwiggler had no such time.

We know Evil adventurers travel into afterlives, to get XP:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html

perhaps an adventurer was hired to go into the Lower Planes and come back with Crystal's soul.

[Reboot]

perhaps an adventurer was hired to go into the Lower Planes and come back with Crystal's soul.

I feel that's impossible - doesn't a soul which is physically removed from (or attempts to physically leave) their afterlife plane just get teleported back to the middle of it?

[RatElemental]

There is precedent for the body having a semblance of the person it once was despite the soul being gone. The speak with dead spell just animates the body and allows it to tap into the imprinted knowledge left in it from when it was alive, the soul is not even aware it's going on. Neither is the body, for that matter, and it can't formulate new knowledge in any way including knowledge of having been questioned.

[Emanick]

I feel that's impossible - doesn't a soul which is physically removed from (or attempts to physically leave) their afterlife plane just get teleported back to the middle of it?

I don't think so. I believe Roy's soul physically left the afterlife when he manifested on the Material Plane as an oathspirit. However, without a physical body, he couldn't do much of anything.

[Borris]

Neutral Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57). With Bozzok. They will eventually be joined by Grubwiggler.

Potential for amusing interactions there...

I'd say Crystal went to the "You are bad and you should feel bad." afterlife.

Grubwiggler might eventually head to "Nothing matters," "Resistance is futile," or even "Let's not get carried away."

[hamishspence]

I don't think so. I believe Roy's soul physically left the afterlife when he manifested on the Material Plane as an oathspirit. However, without a physical body, he couldn't do much of anything.

For another example of a "loose soul" (which can be retrieved):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html

[Fish]

That's very interesting, but then I wonder why a lot of golems have a chance at going berserk if elementals are content in the golem body.
Because the D&D golem was based on previous stories of golems in which going berserk was part and parcel of the creature type: Frankenstein’s monster was a flesh golem, and the broomstick from the Russian legend of “the sorcerer’s apprentice” is very like a golem. Gygax and Co. didn’t start with the explanation of the earth elemental spirit and work their way forward to a reasonable conclusion. That explanation was backfilled or retconned later, and that method often creates little holes in the narrative structure.

[Friv]

Shouldnt such magic be beyond Grubwiggler? Soul Bind is a 9th level necromancy and requires taking action almost immediately after death, while Grubwiggler had no such time.

This assumes that Grubwiggler can create a golem with an unwilling soul in it.

Just because Crystal was furious and in pain after being reborn into a golem body does not mean that her soul was unwilling to leave the Hells for the opportunity to smash some stuff. It's entirely possible that whatever golem edge case he uses for her is the equivalent of Raise Dead.

[hamishspence]

Because the D&D golem was based on previous stories of golems in which going berserk was part and parcel of the creature type: Frankenstein’s monster was a flesh golem, and the broomstick from the Russian legend of “the sorcerer’s apprentice” is very like a golem.

The classic "golem that eventually goes berserk" was a clay golem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#The_classic_narrative:_The_Golem_of_Prague