PDA

View Full Version : [Settings] What would a D&D-esque world with no magic, only psionics be like?



Kiero
2007-09-12, 05:39 PM
In a kind of partner to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48215), here's another musing of mine.

Let's take your regular D&D world, but there's no magic (that doesn't mean all magic still exists, but is merely called "psionics" either, further that means neither arcane nor divine exist). None at all. It never existed, there's no tales of how it "died out" and it's never "coming back" or emerging. There is psionics, maybe even lots of it, but either way that's the source of weirdness and powers. What happens?

What would the typical party balance look like? Who would be nerfed by it (aside from the straight caster classes who no longer exist) and who would benefit?

I guess ultimately the question is, how interchangeable are the two?

I know there's Dark Sun, but that's from an old edition with very different assumptions built into the rules.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-12, 05:48 PM
Probably like this.

DreadSpoon
2007-09-12, 06:05 PM
I guess it depends on what you mean by having psionics - do you mean the Psionics rules, or a setting in which all magic is explained as being psionic manifestations? If the latter, the game would not change at all, because you'd just replace the word "magic" with "psionics" and the words "wizard" and "sorcerer" and "cleric" with "psionicist."

Just like your setting could say that arcane magic is fueled by a Weave, demonic pacts, natural ley lines, or anything else without having any need at all to change even a single mechanic. You can replace the gods with ideals, schools, or styles to allow clerics to have all the exact same rules without being "divine" in nature.

Stormcrow
2007-09-12, 06:46 PM
Like X-men?

Kiero
2007-09-12, 06:58 PM
I guess it depends on what you mean by having psionics - do you mean the Psionics rules, or a setting in which all magic is explained as being psionic manifestations? If the latter, the game would not change at all, because you'd just replace the word "magic" with "psionics" and the words "wizard" and "sorcerer" and "cleric" with "psionicist."

Just like your setting could say that arcane magic is fueled by a Weave, demonic pacts, natural ley lines, or anything else without having any need at all to change even a single mechanic. You can replace the gods with ideals, schools, or styles to allow clerics to have all the exact same rules without being "divine" in nature.

Whole point is no arcane or divine magic, just psionic powers as defined in the rules as psionic powers. This isn't just a "fluff" change where all magic becomes psionics, but one where there isn't any magic.


Probably like this.

Except that's sci-fi, not fantasy.

jjpickar
2007-09-12, 07:04 PM
The entire world would be suffused with an overwrought crystal motif.

(unemotional voice)Psionic Overlords Finally Rule The World!
The Mages are dead!

Fax Celestis
2007-09-12, 07:11 PM
Except that's sci-fi, not fantasy.

Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

Roderick_BR
2007-09-12, 07:37 PM
A world without arcane power will have it's wizards and sorcerers replaced by the next thing, the psyonic classes. The focus will be about "expanding the mind" and what not, instead of "searching for ancient knowledge." Things won't really change much for the average person, merely a shift on who has powers.
Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-12, 07:44 PM
Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

In most cases, that's true. However, I would consider certain forms of sci-fi to not be fantasy. Namely, the really hard, honestly speculative sci-fi.

More importantly, however, the OP was asking what a DnD-esque world would be like without psionics. Basically, there's Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos, all sorts of planes, dragons, etc.

Ooh, scratch the dragons. They've got Sorcerer spellcasting, which likely disqualifies them automatically (I'm guessing creatures with SLAs could be kept, though).

First off, crystals are popular. Psionic people love crystals. Next, we've got the interesting question of interplanar travel. The Astral Caravan power allows a fifth-level nomad to transport anyone capable of manifesting the first-level power Astral Traveller. You'll note that, to travel between planes magically, you need a ninth-level cleric or a thirteenth-level Wizard to cast Plane Shift. Consequentially, interplanar travel is much more accessible, though it's still dangerous enough that most people will stay home (then again, adventurers aren't most people).

Don't forget about tone. Psionic characters get their powers by looking within themselves, rather than by pledging allegiance to a higher power or by studying tomes all day. Also note that psionic characters don't wave their hands around spouting gibberish to use their powers: They just concentrate really hard. I'd imagine that, in such a world, meditation would be quite popular. There would still be gods, even if only as the beliefs of the people, but worship would mostly be done through introspection.

MrNexx
2007-09-12, 07:54 PM
Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

Or, alternatively, they won't change at all.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-12, 08:04 PM
Psionics would replace magic. Some people would use intensive study, books and objects as foci; these would be wizards. Some people would use their faith to explain their powers, these would be priests. Supernatural creatures would have to go (or become psionic manifestations).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-12, 08:06 PM
For the most part, everything would be exactly the same.



Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.Or, alternatively, they won't change at all.
Indeed. Especially since the role of Cleric as mystically-powered defender of the faith can be filled by Ardents and Divine Minds. (OMG! It is teh Complete Psionic! Runuuunnnnz!!!1)

knightsaline
2007-09-12, 08:36 PM
Imagine the Forgotten Realms during the time of troubles. Divine magic does not work unless you are in close proximity to the Avatar of the god, Arcane magic works erratically (summoning a dragon instead of firing a magic missile), Psionics work as normal.

If the world you play in had a godswar, everyone would say "so?"

A D&D world without magic (as westerners know it) would have more of an oriental flavor (those cultures preferring to harness the power within, rather than the power around them). If you really wanted to have some divine flavor, use Nature rather than Dieties. Psionic characters PP don't just restore by themselves, the power of Nature replenishes PP.

Jerthanis
2007-09-12, 08:36 PM
Awesome.

(Stupid character limit)

To elaborate: It'd be really awesome. I'm not even a huge fan of psionics, but I think a setting with only psionics could be really cool and flavorful.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-12, 09:27 PM
Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.

Weezer
2007-09-12, 09:33 PM
there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

Citizen Joe
2007-09-12, 10:08 PM
Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.


I think there is a way to 'yank' the consciousness out of someone and put it into something else. A ressurection may involve travelling to the afterlife plane, trapping the soul in something/creature, then taking it back and transferring it back into a suitable host.

It may also be done as classic Greek Mythology where you have to go to Hades and take person back forcibly.

MrNexx
2007-09-12, 10:09 PM
there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

No, clerical magic was just odd (elemental based, some of it granted by sorcerer-kings, some by spirits of the land, some by the elements themselves). It was wizard magic that was potentially corrupting.

Lemur
2007-09-12, 10:17 PM
I'd play it. Egoists would probably be a bit more popular, since they have the best access to damage control and restoration effects. Rangers and Paladins would presumably get one of those non-spellcasting variants floating around.



Ooh, scratch the dragons. They've got Sorcerer spellcasting, which likely disqualifies them automatically (I'm guessing creatures with SLAs could be kept, though).

Except for crystal dragons, of course. Dang crystals :P


Hang on, I just had a thought. Is there any sort of psionic power that can resurrect the dead (besides psionic revivify, which only works within a few rounds of death)? The implications could be quite significant.

Reality Revision can do it. However, it's a 9th level power with a 5000 XP cost, and it's only about as effective as a standard Ressurect spell. That is, you need the body, and he still loses a level. If there's no body available, you can remake it with one Reality Revision, and bring it back to life with a second. So it's technically possible, but much more painful to go through. Yet another reason to like egoists, for prompt revivification.

serow
2007-09-12, 10:34 PM
My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

EvilElitest
2007-09-12, 10:50 PM
Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.

Close, but not quite correct. Science Fiction needs to be set in the future, and 99 percent of the time with greater technology. The original planets of the Apes is Science Fiction, as Darker than Black, because both are set in the future. Star Wars is debatable because of the "Long time ago" line, but i really is just Science Fiction. Science Fiction mostly relies on advanced technology. A world that is in the past but with advanced technology is Science Fiction Fantasy.
from,
EE

MrNexx
2007-09-12, 10:52 PM
My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Jack Vance's The Dying Earth?

Of course, then there's the ones that were designed around it, like the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Eberron...

Oh, hey, Final Fantasy I used a variation on it.

Dervag
2007-09-12, 11:02 PM
Contrary to popular belief, "sci-fi" is "fantasy". The only difference is the level of technology.Actually, there is a fairly well established difference.

Science fiction creates hypothetical worlds by projecting current trends and technologies forward.

Fantasy creates hypothetical worlds by projecting sideways into places that are not, were not, and can never be.

There is, of course, a large area of overlap between the two, such as Star Wars and John Ringo's Council Wars series (which uses science fictional trappings to justify the construction of what is in essence a fantasy setting).


My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.Except for Vance, right?


Star Wars is debatable because of the "Long time ago" line, but i really is just Science Fiction.Given that the setting is permeated by "the Force," which allows people to perform quasipsionic acts of power, I'd say it's a mix of science fiction and fantasy.

EvilElitest
2007-09-12, 11:03 PM
My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

Zincorium
2007-09-12, 11:10 PM
Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

Those settings were forced to use vancian magic, it wouldn't have made any sense otherwise, because those settings appeared after D&D had already decided that it would use vancian and none other (psionics only became something of the same category as magic in 2nd ed, from what I recall).

To put it another way, if D&D had not used the vancian system, not a single one of those you mention would have had it.

And I'm puzzled by that last sentence of yours. Do you mean that you like Vancian magic only because you're used to it, without any other reasons?

Mewtarthio
2007-09-12, 11:19 PM
Ummmmmm?

Greyhawk?
FR?
Ebberon?
Midnight?
Dragonlance (R.I.P.)
Ravenloft
Even Dark Sun just right off the bat

Also i like the Vancitain system, it is the standard one
from,
EE

Okay, outside of DnD settings and Jack Vance's A Dying Earth, are there any fantasy settings that use Vancian casting? To be honest, I think the most common magic is ritual magic, "spellcasters cast as much as they want, but it drains them physically/spiritually." I've heard that Vancian casting was selected for DnD explicitly because it bore no similarities to real-world religions, so it's natural that it wouldn't appear in many fantasy settings.

Also, Star Wars is pure fantasy. Okay, maybe the droids and prosthetics are sci-fi, but everything else is just pretty blinking lights and big black boxes that look all spacey. Fantasy set in space is still fantasy. :smalltongue:

MrNexx
2007-09-12, 11:46 PM
To put it another way, if D&D had not used the vancian system, not a single one of those you mention would have had it.

Wellllll.... yes and no. The Forgotten Realms, likely not; Ed was writing for that long before there was a D&D. However, Dragonlance was designed specifically around D&D's magic system. Eberron (possibly), Ravenloft, Dark Sun, etc., are all in the same boat... they might not have had Vancian magic if D&D didn't use it, but that's because they would've used whatever magic system D&D used.

Mind you, I'm not a die-hard defender of Vancian magic. However, you do need to make alterations to many spells (such as were made in the psionics system) if you switch to a spell point system.

Kiero
2007-09-13, 03:28 AM
I'm not even going to bother with the pointless debate over whether fantasy and sci-fi are the same thing. As far as I'm concerned there are fairly stark differences in the genres (Star Wars is pulp/space fantasy and doesn't prove the two are the same), and I'm really not interested in discussing it. If you must go round the usual loops, please take it to another thread.


A world without arcane power will have it's wizards and sorcerers replaced by the next thing, the psyonic classes. The focus will be about "expanding the mind" and what not, instead of "searching for ancient knowledge." Things won't really change much for the average person, merely a shift on who has powers.
Now, without divine magic, all the cleric and church structure will change considerably.

I'm not sure why people assume when I said "no magic" I only mean "no arcane magic". I mean none of any stripe, arcane or divine. There is only psionics.

Is there healing with psionics?


there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

And as I said in the OP, I'm well aware of Dark Sun, it's not what I'm looking for.


My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Many other settings do feature all magic as one. One that immediately comes to mind is Wheel of Time, of all things. Channeling bears many hallmarks of psychic activity.


Someone said elsewhere that a party would consist of a Psionic Warrior, a Psionic Rouge, a Psion, and a Society Mind.

Why would that be the case? Why wouldn't anyone play non-psions?

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 03:36 AM
Someone said elsewhere that a party would consist of a Psionic Warrior, a Psionic Rouge, a Psion, and a Society Mind.

Why would that be the case? Why wouldn't anyone play non-psions?

For much the same reasons few people play non-spellcasters in normal D&D... they're behind the power curve.

Kiero
2007-09-13, 03:42 AM
For much the same reasons few people play non-spellcasters in normal D&D... they're behind the power curve.

Are you telling me it's truly the case that the only thing people who play D&D are interested in is the power curve?

Dean Fellithor
2007-09-13, 05:27 AM
I never really got into magic that much, so the only real answer is: Awesome.

Kantolin
2007-09-13, 06:40 AM
Are you telling me it's truly the case that the only thing people who play D&D are interested in is the power curve?

Wait a minute... what exactly are you asking?

I mean... the answer I think you're looking for would be, 'People will play the concept which they think would be most fun to play in the given setting' regardless of presence/lack of psionics.

Maybe someone'll play a fighter who simply isn't skilled/lucky enough to utilize psionics but wants to. Maybe someone'll play a fighter who hates the psionics of the world and wants to eject it from existance. Maybe someone'll play a fighter who doesn't care.

So, eh. Roleplay-wise, if arcane or divine magic had never existed in the world, nobody will care (Or well, most people won't care. Some groups may look into obtaining power from the gods or something).

If it had existed before and now didn't, some people will be estatic and jump for joy, others will look into how to return arcane and divine magic back into the world. Still others won't care.

So basically: People will get by, and likely bicker over whatever.

Now, if you're asking for the overarching IC effects of this, that basically depends on what spells cannot be easily replicated by psionics, and what psionic powers cannot be easily replicated by spells... and then whether or not arcane/divine magic existed beforehand in the setting.

For example, if everyone in the setitng used to have divine magic but now they do not, then everyone in the setting will note the lack of healing. If divine magic had never existed, then nobody will notice a lack of any sort - healing is just not something that is done competently.

If you're looking for OOC comments, like, "You may wish to do something about healing since it's difficult without divine magic." or something like, "This will bring the power levels of PCs down a notch" or even, "You may wish to come up with a reasonable variant for bards"... then that can be answered. ^_^ I'm just curious about your latest couple comments, which seem to make it a little unclear what you're asking.

ReluctantDragon
2007-09-13, 06:48 AM
Are you telling me it's truly the case that the only thing people who play D&D are interested in is the power curve?

I don't think so. I think if you are a DM and you present this world to your players, then their knee-jerk reaction to character creation would be, "Hmm, so hand me the Expanded Psionics and Complete Psionics books."

Now that's not to say that Ted, the guy who likes to come up with original characters, those outside the boundaries of the rest of the party, won't just say, "I'm rolling up a vanilla fighter with a spiked chain, or a bow, or a barbarian with a huge freaking Greatsword and I'll swing away." (Silly Ted):smallwink:

Or that you won't have a player simply roll up an npc class. Billy and his crazy idea for an expert that adventures. Crazy Billy!:smalltongue:

The big thing here is you're bringing to the table a world with a specific theme. Its well within the bounds of common sense to think that your players will create characters that embrace that theme. And to be honest, if you have a bunch of psionic characters and one non-psionic character in a hack-n-slash game, then yes, the non-psionic character will more than likely wind up as a liability. Because in 3.5 D&D, the magic(or in your case psionic) characters are the power characters and the non-psionic characters are behind the curve, as Mr. Nexx so deftly put it.

My 2 bits.

RD

**EDIT**
And of course, Kantolin ninja's me. *sigh* C'est la vie

Kiero
2007-09-13, 07:28 AM
I don't understand why people seem to be having so much difficulty with the premise of this thought experiment. It's the equivalent in the real world of a group of players and a GM of the GM saying "right, there's no magic in this campaign, but there is psionics".

For clarity:
1) No there's no magic of any description, neither arcane nor divine.

2) In the setting neither ever existed, and aren't about to emerge either.

3) As a result of 1) and 2) none of the pure casting classes (Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, Druid etc) exist, or have ever existed.

4) Further to 3) none of the creatures using divine or arcane effects are able to, unless there's a psionic analogue to that power.

5) Additionally, there's no magic items either, although if there's a psionic equivalent of invested objects then they exist.

6) Not entirely sure how to handle those with casting abilities (Ranger, Paladin, Bard etc); convert to psionics? Would that work?

My question is twofold.

1) How would this world look compared to that typically assumed with in the D&D rules? (IC level if you like)

2) How would it affect players making characters for such a world, and the choices they'd make? (OOC level if you like)

Citizen Joe
2007-09-13, 08:04 AM
Although there would still be faiths, there wouldn't be any dieties. Without divine magic, you couldn't directly prove the existence of gods. I'd gut the outer planes. If they do exist, its more of a collective psychic construct of the faithful (another reason to foster the belief in the divine). Demons and devils would be the manifestations of that faith as well. Most likely they would only affect people in dreams though.

The elemental planes would get gutted as well. Elementalism is largely an arcane theory and falls apart fairly quickly when you apply some logic. Without magic, the 'elemental planes' would only exist as a theoretical construct.

Astral and ethereal planes would be unaffected. The energy planes could remain as well.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-13, 09:46 AM
There is no Hair Club for men.:smalltongue:

Leon
2007-09-13, 10:43 AM
(OMG! It is teh Complete Psionic! Runuuunnnnz!!!1)

the what...


there was a 2nd edition campaign that had just the same effect it was Dark Sun and was actually pretty cool. They reasoned that all divine and arcane magic was corrupting and would eventually destroy the world so almost everyone stopped using it (those who still used it usually died pretty quick).

Its been adapted to 3.5. Arcane magic draws its power from natural life (plants in particular), thus why the planet is rather barren after the cleansing wars, the divine magic is drawn from one of 3 places: the spirit of the land, a Elemental Plane or a Dragon King. Most Arcane users are feared and hated, its not something that would be advertised (even for a Presever - one who doesnt defile)

Almost everything thats Sentiant and plenty of non sentiant things have Psi powers in DS, some are racial some not

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 11:11 AM
Are you telling me it's truly the case that the only thing people who play D&D are interested in is the power curve?

No, of course not. But take a glance through most of the topics here. They're usually some variety of "How to make non-spellcasters not suck so much", "Why spellcasters own the game", or "I'm nerfing spellcasters and expect a giant-flamewar." Very few topics don't deal with spellcasters, and unless someone requests it, very few builds presented are not. Heck, of the PH, only 4 of the classes have no spellcasting abilities, and it gets even sparser on the ground out in the splats.


My guess is that it'd be like almost every fantasy setting out there.
I can't even recall any fantasy setting that uses the stupid Vancian spell slot system.

Oh! Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. 10 novels long, at this point. Both clerics and wizards use Vancian magic.


Although there would still be faiths, there wouldn't be any dieties. Without divine magic, you couldn't directly prove the existence of gods. I'd gut the outer planes. If they do exist, its more of a collective psychic construct of the faithful (another reason to foster the belief in the divine). Demons and devils would be the manifestations of that faith as well. Most likely they would only affect people in dreams though.

The elemental planes would get gutted as well. Elementalism is largely an arcane theory and falls apart fairly quickly when you apply some logic. Without magic, the 'elemental planes' would only exist as a theoretical construct.

Astral and ethereal planes would be unaffected. The energy planes could remain as well.

I disagree with you about the planes. According to the "traditional" cosmology of D&D, the outer planes exist somewhat because of the Primes... they are shaped by Prime beliefs and actions. So, changing the nature of the universe so divine magic doesn't function wouldn't necessarily remove the planes from consideration, just change how they affect the world that affects them. I think atheism or agnosticism would be a more logically defensible position in these games than it is in a standard D&D world ("The gods are not real!" "I'm right here, man. Why do you have to be so insensitive?"), I disagree that they would, necessarily, fail to exist or fail to work on the planet UNLESS you envision something like Dark Sun, where deities are actively prohibited from getting to the world.

As for the inner planes... in the D&D universe, they don't require the primes at all. In a sense, they create the primes, by providing the raw material for them.... Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Life, Death, etc. So they don't fall apart because the nature of the prime has changed, unless you want to set it in an entirely different cosmology.

tannish2
2007-09-13, 02:37 PM
everyone would either have no spellcasting ability, or be bald (its one of the rules of mental power, dont ask, i suppose you could house rule it out though)

there would be fewer party buffs and the question of magic items would need to be adressed, psionic buffs usually have a range of personal. healing might be a bit more difficult, there being a lack of healing belts cure light wands lesser vigor wands or bard healing, but it could still work.

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 03:28 PM
everyone would either have no spellcasting ability, or be bald (its one of the rules of mental power, dont ask, i suppose you could house rule it out though)

Don't forget the hot chicks!

Citizen Joe
2007-09-13, 03:59 PM
I disagree with you about the planes. According to the "traditional" cosmology of D&D, the outer planes exist somewhat because of the Primes... they are shaped by Prime beliefs and actions.

Well, what I'm saying is that the outer planes don't exist apart from the faithful. They are constructs of the collective will of the faithful. They exist within the minds of the faithful, and as psionics is all about mental powers, the psion could go there. The stronger the faith and more faithful there are, the more 'real' and 'big' their collective outer plane is. That outer plane may even have 'gods' if that is what the faithful believe. I suppose, in that sense, magic can exist on the outer planes because the faithful belief it does. Since magic can exist out there, then so can the gods.



As for the inner planes... in the D&D universe, they don't require the primes at all. In a sense, they create the primes, by providing the raw material for them.... Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Life, Death, etc. So they don't fall apart because the nature of the prime has changed, unless you want to set it in an entirely different cosmology.
Elemental theory was created by scientists trying to find the fundamental components of matter. When they burned a piece of wood it created fire, air (smoke), earth (ash) and water (a bit of water came out of the still wet wood). Thus they assumed everything was made up of various proportions of these elements. This theory never really held much water but didn't get debunked for a few centuries. In DND, Druidism and Arcane arts draw power from the elemental planes. But those have been hypothesized away. Thus no need for the elemental planes. They can exist as hypothetical planes for scientists, and thus exist to said scientists similar to the outer planes existing to the faithful.

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 04:16 PM
In D&D, it's not theory; it's (meta)physical reality.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-13, 04:26 PM
In D&D, it's not theory; it's (meta)physical reality.

That's what I'm saying. Without magic, the inner and outer planes are just metaphysical.

MrNexx
2007-09-13, 04:59 PM
That's what I'm saying. Without magic, the inner and outer planes are just metaphysical.

But psionics exist, and can take you there.

Plane Shift, Psionic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/planeShiftPsionic.htm)

"Oh, look, we're in the Plane of Fire!"

Bauglir
2007-09-13, 07:54 PM
Discworld has Vancian-esque, as I recall. Wizards had to memorize and prepare spells, and the act of casting them released the energy from their minds. Of course, it's Terry Pratchett, so the point is that Vancian is silly.

My view on this is that things will be largely the same for the average person, who rarely has experience with magic OR psionics. On the grander scale, you'd replace your dragons with crystal dragons. Nations would have Wilders for artillery rather than Warmages. Clergy are going to be Ardents and Divine Minds (Healing exists, and the only difference is that you can't resurrect someone easily). They get their powers from their faith, just like Clerics and Paladins, so they're just as much proof as those classes, if that's what you're worried about. Magic items often have Psionic analogues. You could replace all the enhancement bonus items, for instance, with some Egoist powers (I'm sure they exist) for prereqs. Rules exist for psionic weapons and armor, etc. Tomes just get Reality Revision as a prereq. I'm sure there's a psionic resistance bonus to saves somewhere. The main thing is that you're going to cut down on wondrous items a whole lot, simply because there's less psionic support. If psionics had as much support as magic, then there'd be little to no trouble at all.

Iku Rex
2007-09-13, 09:56 PM
Okay, outside of DnD settings and Jack Vance's A Dying Earth, are there any fantasy settings that use Vancian casting? Zelazny's Amber books.

Kiero
2007-09-14, 03:35 AM
Discworld has Vancian-esque, as I recall. Wizards had to memorize and prepare spells, and the act of casting them released the energy from their minds. Of course, it's Terry Pratchett, so the point is that Vancian is silly.

My view on this is that things will be largely the same for the average person, who rarely has experience with magic OR psionics. On the grander scale, you'd replace your dragons with crystal dragons. Nations would have Wilders for artillery rather than Warmages. Clergy are going to be Ardents and Divine Minds (Healing exists, and the only difference is that you can't resurrect someone easily). They get their powers from their faith, just like Clerics and Paladins, so they're just as much proof as those classes, if that's what you're worried about. Magic items often have Psionic analogues. You could replace all the enhancement bonus items, for instance, with some Egoist powers (I'm sure they exist) for prereqs. Rules exist for psionic weapons and armor, etc. Tomes just get Reality Revision as a prereq. I'm sure there's a psionic resistance bonus to saves somewhere. The main thing is that you're going to cut down on wondrous items a whole lot, simply because there's less psionic support. If psionics had as much support as magic, then there'd be little to no trouble at all.

No resurrection and less magic items, I like this already. :smallbiggrin:

I was perusing the Psionic classes and powers on the SRD, I can't believe using just those would mean a world much the same as with the huge numbers of arcane and divine spells.

Personally I wouldn't be concerned about preserving the arcane/divine split of "mages" and "priests". That's another thing I like about this idea - all powers are from the same source, no matter how characters in the game might choose to rationalise them.

Surely psionics alone is simpler than two types of magic and psionics on the side?

Idea Man
2007-09-27, 03:02 AM
Psionics...:smallsigh:

I have yet to have a good experience with a psi-character. The point system equates to about the same power level as a sorcerer, with roughly the same "spell" access. Psionics tend to be only ever so slightly different in application, which isn't really a problem. My issue is the with the invocation-style powers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM can be boosted to LEVEL-EQUIVALENT MAXIMUM POWER (a.k.a. your "lightning bolt" can do your level in dice damage) and THEY ALL CAN BE INVOKED IN WHATEVER ENERGY TYPE YOU WANT!! :smallfurious:

Okay, deep breath. :smallsigh: Better.

No spellcaster gets this kind of flexibility, and they shouldn't (at least, not without a lot of training; see:archmage). Psionic energy powers are just a little too useful. I, personally, advocate restricting the type of energy access, at least, allowing them to expand as they level up, spending feats to expand their portfolio. After all, the only difference between a 3rd lvl psi-power as strong as you can invoke it, and a 7th lvl psi-power as strong as you can invoke it, is usually what shape it's going to be.

Minus the energy powers, a world without magic, and with psionics, is as much like any other game you might run, maybe a little more complicated. I'd play. :smallsmile:

Kiero
2007-09-27, 03:34 AM
Minus the energy powers, a world without magic, and with psionics, is as much like any other game you might run, maybe a little more complicated. I'd play. :smallsmile:

Why more complicated? Are the psionic rules more fiddly than the magic ones?

Jack Mann
2007-09-27, 05:24 AM
Oh! Joel Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series. 10 novels long, at this point. Both clerics and wizards use Vancian magic.

Of course, the original premise of Guardians of the Flame was a group of gamers being transported to a D&D-like world, so it's not entirely surprising...

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-27, 05:27 AM
Why more complicated? Are the psionic rules more fiddly than the magic ones?

He's just used to the magic rules and doesn't like psionics due to the popular misconceived notion that they're somehow broken.

Serenity
2007-09-27, 07:19 AM
The biggest danger in such a world would be lessened access to healing. An Egoist's healing powers primarily affect themselves, and as far as I can tell there is one Psionic mantle that Divine Minds or Ardents could use to heal companions. Throw in Tome of Battle, as it's thematically appropriate, and you've also got the Devoted Spirit healing strikes. Still needs a slight boost, I think. Take care of that, and you've got a wonderful campaign setting.

Caewil
2007-09-27, 07:23 AM
I have yet to have a good experience with a psi-character. The point system equates to about the same power level as a sorcerer, with roughly the same "spell" access. Psionics tend to be only ever so slightly different in application, which isn't really a problem. My issue is the with the invocation-style powers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM can be boosted to LEVEL-EQUIVALENT MAXIMUM POWER (a.k.a. your "lightning bolt" can do your level in dice damage) and THEY ALL CAN BE INVOKED IN WHATEVER ENERGY TYPE YOU WANT!!
Yes, but you also pay the equivalent cost. Say, if you want a LVL 20d6 Energy bolt, it costs 20pp to augment it to that levels. All the free selection of energies does is make blasting a semi-viable strategy. Even then, it's better to just use buffs, battlefield control or save-or-suck/die powers - same as with spellcasting.


No spellcaster gets this kind of flexibility, and they shouldn't (at least, not without a lot of training; see:archmage). Psionic energy powers are just a little too useful. I, personally, advocate restricting the type of energy access, at least, allowing them to expand as they level up, spending feats to expand their portfolio. After all, the only difference between a 3rd lvl psi-power as strong as you can invoke it, and a 7th lvl psi-power as strong as you can invoke it, is usually what shape it's going to be.
So they can do a few d6's. They still have to augment, which spellcasters do not.

Personally, I find it simpler to keep track of a PP pool than memorised spells/spell-slots. Comparatively, vancian magic is highly encumbering in the amount of paper you have to use. With Psionics you just have powers known and your PP. Deduct the power's cost from your PP. Simple.

A no magic, high psionics game would rock. in fact, that's generally how I run most of my games.

Renx
2007-09-27, 07:44 AM
Mm... well, if you think about the world ("fluff" as some call it) only, you'd have one of two things:

1) Since psionics give such a huge advantage to 'mundies', and there are enough of hem around, sooner or later they would have taken over. It's not that hard to rule a world when you can go into peoples' heads to sniff out competitors. Of course, since psions'd give positions of power to other psions and generally get away with everything, you'd have a hard time deposing such a reign. And you probably wouldn't even want to. I'm not going to comment on how the administration works, could go pretty much any way the DM wants. Personally, I'd have their worldview would consist of "keep things running, don't cause too much damage" since psionic sensitives would naturally be sensitive to unrest and detest such a state where people have outright hate for them. Of course, they could just kill everyone they sense enough hate in and settle for fear. That's the other extreme. All 'magical' items would be for psions and a very select few only. You'd probably see a bunch of mundies held only as a source for psionic strength for any kind of use and techniques to draw power from them.

2) From the same reasons, but psionics are few and far between, they're an aberration, hunted down and feared by peasants and nobles alike. Think mutants a la Marvel. A few higher-ups would have tame psions as weapons or bodyguards, but they'd be pretty much extinct. Or that's what they want you to believe...

Since number 2 would just be a no-magic witchhunt world, I'd go for 1 ;)

Tengu
2007-09-27, 07:52 AM
Not all psions are telepaths, you know. Most of them are no better at mind control than wizards.

Idea Man
2007-09-27, 09:54 PM
He's just used to the magic rules and doesn't like psionics due to the popular misconceived notion that they're somehow broken.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that psionics is properly balanced, at least by the numbers. The difference is that psionics get more "high-level" shots out of their powers, at the expense of being able to do less of them. Perfectly fair, just really frustrating when you're running a random encounter of any kind. I don't necessarily mean an overland trip, just a fight that everyone knows is going to be an isolated incident.
Now, if there are no magic characters to compare to, I don't see a problem. All's fair, after all.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-27, 10:12 PM
Their damage Powers aren't the ones you need to worry about when they nova; those end up fairly equivalent to the Wizard/Sorcerer types. Astral Construct/Ectoplasmic Cocoon/Death Urge/Energy Stun (It does damage, but the +1 DC/pp of augmentation is the scary part) all scale well and are pretty intimidating when they show up in large numbers.

I do love Psionic-only settings, though. The healing method itself makes them shine above arcane/divine magic. Also, throwing Psionics and ToB together narrows the gap incredibly between the optimizers and the people who think the Monk is the greatest class ever.

There really isn't much of a flavor change beyond Psychic Warrior/Cleric differences. If you drop all of the ridiculous tatoos and crystals, the setting suffers nearly no change- something I found a bit disappointing.

Zincorium
2007-09-27, 10:13 PM
Actually, I'm of the opinion that psionics is properly balanced, at least by the numbers. The difference is that psionics get more "high-level" shots out of their powers, at the expense of being able to do less of them. Perfectly fair, just really frustrating when you're running a random encounter of any kind. I don't necessarily mean an overland trip, just a fight that everyone knows is going to be an isolated incident.
Now, if there are no magic characters to compare to, I don't see a problem. All's fair, after all.

Actually, there aren't many ways of out damaging the average spellcaster without either ignoring the 'one pp per class level' limit (which includes the cost of the power itself) spent on powers or using the overchannel feat, which isn't overpowered.

The energy spells do give you a damage bonus for energy types that are commonly resisted, but that's not a lot more than, say, a warmage with warmage's edge. And if you're blasting, that's the class you should be comparing yourself to.

Add to that the fact that you have to pay more power points, depriving yourself of either higher level powers or more of them, to get additional damage dice that spellcasters get for free, and 'going nova' is kind of underwhelming.

Bauglir
2007-09-28, 12:06 AM
Huh. Energy Stun is so very broken. Can't believe they never errata'd that. That DC comes out at what, DC 42 vs stunning at level 20 assuming a human with 34 Int and a Psionatrix of Psychokinesis? That's impressive.

Zincorium
2007-09-28, 02:53 AM
Huh. Energy Stun is so very broken. Can't believe they never errata'd that. That DC comes out at what, DC 42 vs stunning at level 20 assuming a human with 34 Int and a Psionatrix of Psychokinesis? That's impressive.

32. 2 (power level) + 17 (possible augmenting without overchannel) + 1 (psionatrix) + 12 (intelligence modifier). Reflex save for half, failure means stunned for a single round.

To get an intelligence of 32, one must have started with an intelligence of 18, spent all five level up points, five wishes or equivalent tome, and have an item of 6.

However, presented with equal resources, a halfling rogue 20 with the same bonuses applied to dexterity and a cloak of resistance +5 has to roll a 2 or above to succeed on this save, AKA you're practically hoping for an auto fail when confronted by an equal level opponent. Obviously most characters will have a lesser save, but near-immunity is not unreachable even in core. And being stunned for one round isn't as bad as, say, trapped in a force-cage with a cloudkill spell inside.

Considering that you have paid more power points than for reality revision or teleport circle on that one power, I really don't see it as being overpowered.