Magic Disparity In Party

[Afgncaap5]

tl;dr - In a game of 3.5, our DM has allowed Spheres of Power and the only player to use it is out-damaging *everything*, which is usually okay but leading to ruffled feathers after a PvP tournament where the party's other main caster (a wizard/cleric/theurge/spellsword) felt disheartened at "not having a chance." Advice for talking things over?

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So, some backstory: I love Spheres of Power, but I kinda hate Pathfinder. I do, I really do. So I permitted Spheres of Power in my game worlds, providing players took a couple of debuffs to it here and there (generally by lowering the hit dice of given classes, increasing the amount of spell points it takes to use the Destruction Sphere effectively, that kind of thing.) I know that "by the numbers" Spheres of Power is "roughly on par" with casters who dedicate themselves to a single thing with Vancian casting, but I also know that that generality applies to mid/high optimization play rather than low-op play. Still, I'm a DM who can roll with the punches, so I let it work. The Pyromantic damage dealer gets a lot of mileage out of fire blasts, but I sprinkle in a healthy portion of monsters with fire immunity, spell resistance, and other creative solutions to fire attacks so it still balances out.

Fast forward to the end of my campaign, and the pyromancer wants to run his own campaign. I decide it's his first campaign so I'll go easy on him with a Swashbuckler/Fighter character. His brother comes in to play, and decides to go the Mystic Theurge route, and despite the internet-at-large disliking the class I think it sounds like something he'll have fun with. But the DM decides to allow Spheres of Power. I ask if he's sure, and he says it'll be fine, and he'll be using my house rules to weaken it. Ultimately only one player picks up the Spheres of Power option because it'll let her play a Wind Mage, something she's basically imagined as a character all her life. And that's great. However, I do note in combat that she pummels *everything* with super damage or otherwise blocks enemies with wind walls, and while she's limited by spell points, there's also not a lot of work put in to provide enemies who mitigate her definite advantage. I think "Well, it's still... arguably just what a 3.5 Warlock might be doing..." But then she gets shown the Destroyer's Handbook and starts taking some of the options in there. Don't get me wrong, I love the Destroyer's Handbook, but I'm not sure if all those options are still "on par" with the general level of optimization that everyone else at the table is using. It seems okay, though, at least at first.

Fast forward to the more recent scenarios, and we've found ourselves in a tournament, so a bit of PvP action happened. The two lead competitors wound up being our party's Mystic Theurge and the Wind Mage. Unfortunately, the Theurge used all of her highest level spells (admittedly only 3rd level spells at level 9, but still, the top level magic was used) in the previous round, while the wind mage had been going out of her way to not use spell points in the previous matches. Her first attack is a 9d10 air blast (which due to tournament rules had to be channeled through a martial weapon, but still) and it effectively one-shots the Theurge with a very nice roll where not a single die was lower than a seven. The Theurge had previously expressed misgivings about the power of Spheres of Power, and the player was, understandably, angry at losing at the end of the tournament in a such a one-sided way.

Now, on the one hand I'm thinking that the Theurge should've tried saving more spells for the end, but I also do feel like there *is* a power disparity here. Part of that comes down to the Theurge not having 5th level spells and part of that was just the wind mage rolling a statistically improbably good roll, but I still kinda feel responsible for introducing Spheres of Power to the group by permitting it in a different campaign setting over a year ago. So I'm wondering if I should talk to the DM, or to the other players, or if I should say something. Like, I know how *I* would handle these scenarios, but I also don't want to be the know-it-all DM who's tellin' the new kid how to run his game. Any thoughts on how I should handle this situation?

[RoboEmperor]

If the Wind Mage is seriously playing Wind Mage for the style/fluff and not for the power tell him/her to drop some of the optimization things he/she did.

If that's not happening then tell the Mystic Theurge that it's his fault for playing such a crap PrC despite warnings and now he's feeling the consequences of his actions in which case he can just roll a new character that doesn't suck.

If the Mystic Theurge doesn't want to do that then I guess he'll have to leave the table. I mean the DM said no, the Wind Mage said no, and he's saying no to a new character, so what else is there to do?

[Jormengand]

You allowed Spheres of Power, and then Spheres of Power broke everything horribly. The solution seems self-evident, here.

Mystic Theurge is subpar compared to a monoclass T1 character, but hardly weak - there's very few optimisation levels at which the Mystic Theurge is going to be the weakest member of a party - so there's no point blaming the MT for being too weak. If the MT had had 5th-level spells, what would they have cast? Flame strike? That would still have been outclassed by the 9d10 damage the wind mage landed on them without even trying.

[Nifft]

Mystic Theurge is notoriously underpowered. Then you mention that Spellsword's added in, which makes it sound like another dip might have happened -- was there a level of Fighter / Ranger / etc. to get proficiencies for Spellsword entry?

At character level 9, with level 3 spells, the MT is going to look bad compared to any ordinary full-caster who would have access to level 5 spells. I mean it's the difference between fireball and lesser planar binding, one of them is a game-changer -- or between fly and overland flight, or between wind wall and wall of force.

If you're not allowing early-entry tricks (which would permit stuff like Cleric 3 / Wizard 1 / MT 5, and give you level 4 Cleric spells at ECL 9, just one level behind) then the Mystic Theurge is likely to significantly under-perform. With early-entry tricks it's not going to be overwhelmingly strong, but it's going to be significantly more able to lay down level-appropriate spells for one of its constituent classes, and 1 or 2 levels behind for the other.

[Afgncaap5]

You allowed Spheres of Power, and then Spheres of Power broke everything horribly. The solution seems self-evident, here.

Well, again, this isn't a game I'm running. Spheres of Power worked perfectly well in my previous campaign, but that was over a year ago. This is a new game run by a new DM, and he's worked Spheres magic into a lot of the methodology of the main world.

When I used Spheres of Power I gave the players pretty firm class and magical tradition limitations, this DM is taking a more relaxed approach. I think the only real misstep he's taken, though, is permitting material from the Destroyer's Handbook in a PvP scenario where the other player didn't have it.

[zlefin]

as to how to handle the situation: mostly just talking to people is all you can do.

I'd also look at their overall builds, there could be significant discrepancies in the amount of optimization between the builds, as well as their flexibility.
Many SoP builds have one good solid trick plus a few lesser ones; and they can do blasters better than vancian iirc; but they won't have nearly the flexibility to deal with alternate situations.

SoP isn't overpowered at all, not compared to the base game stuff. It is however higher floor/lower ceiling.
Can't tell the odds without looking at the sheets; and the special rules of that tourney may've changed what tactics would work well; but a lvl 9 vancian caster could easily have some stuff that instagibs an opponent in general.

[torrasque666]

I mean, you have a caster who went for breadth over depth and blew their most powerful options early, up against a specialized caster who made efforts to conserve their power. Just from that general description I'd expect the specialized caster to win. It's nothing to do with the power level of Spheres, just design choices by the players.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think the problem here is SoP. What you're describing for the wind mage is well within the limits of any halfway competently build caster. Not optimization, just picking options that enhance what you want to do (instead of actively shooting yourself in the foot).
It's more that the MT took an already weak class, anti-optimized it to suck even more (Spellsword, really?), didn't conserve his resources (and didn't use what he have intelligently i'd guess) and then ran right into the other players lucky roll to top it off.
It doesn't help that MTs are pretty squishy unless you actively work to compensate, so he would have died just as quickly to an empowered Fireball or something similarly basic.

Sure, it's generally good form to adjust to the weakest players level, but in this case i think everyone would be better off if you rebuild the MT to a standard a little higher than what he has now.

[Alabenson]

To be honest, the presence of Spheres of Power seems to be the least problematic element in the scenario you just described. The bigger issue you have here is essentially Player > Build > Class, with the Wind Mage player playing smarter and at a much higher level of optimization than the Mystic Theurge.

[Afgncaap5]

I mean, you have a caster who went for breadth over depth and blew their most powerful options early, up against a specialized caster who made efforts to conserve their power. Just from that general description I'd expect the specialized caster to win. It's nothing to do with the power level of Spheres, just design choices by the players.

Aye, that may be the core issue here. Scenario just might've exacerbated some underlying thoughts he'd had for a bit.




I don't think the problem here is SoP. What you're describing for the wind mage is well within the limits of any halfway competently build caster. Not optimization, just picking options that enhance what you want to do (instead of actively shooting yourself in the foot).
It's more that the MT took an already weak class, anti-optimized it to suck even more (Spellsword, really?), didn't conserve his resources (and didn't use what he have intelligently i'd guess) and then ran right into the other players lucky roll to top it off.
It doesn't help that MTs are pretty squishy unless you actively work to compensate, so he would have died just as quickly to an empowered Fireball or something similarly basic.

Sure, it's generally good form to adjust to the weakest players level, but in this case i think everyone would be better off if you rebuild the MT to a standard a little higher than what he has now.

I wouldn't go that far. The MT is a pretty seasoned player, actually; might come from a lot of low-optimization tables, but still pretty solid. And since game one, she's been played as a Gish, and pretty effectively. In fact, the fight in the tournament before this one had the Theurge win against the competitor that literally no one was supposed to win against (and it was a close one, too.)

So, I'd say this particular character is a solid example of Player > Build > Class in play. This is just the first time, I think, that the Player's come up against some of the more solid limitations of the class.

And again, I've got nothing against Spheres of Power. It's just rough to see a Vancian-heavy player get sore about a single moment where SoP magic wins so handily.

[MrSandman]

I second that the MT is the problem (not the player, the build). SoP is cool because it allows you to build your own caster options, but you end up losing the flexibility of a vancian caster. The Wind Mage is really good at blasting stuff, all right, what else can she do? I'm pretty sure there are many ways for a vancian caster to shut her down.

[Afgncaap5]

what else can she do?

Wind walls, mostly, and absorb fire damage. But yes; in a combat-heavy scenario the Destruction-sphere specialist will often have the edge.

[Zanos]

A wizard casting empowered fireball for 10d6*1.5 damage isn't considered high op.

Could you give an example of the wind mages damage? Im surprised she's outdamaging martial characters unless they're built terribly.

Also of course the multiclass character is going to be worse at casting than a focused character, when the multiclass is basically a wizard/cleric/fighter. That's a problem of expectations.

EDIT: I will actually add that if the wind mage is overshadowing everyone it is the wind mage's problem. If they're the only outlier, then yeah, they might want to tone it down a notch. But it seems like the MT has an expectations problem also.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I wouldn't go that far. The MT is a pretty seasoned player, actually; might come from a lot of low-optimization tables, but still pretty solid. And since game one, she's been played as a Gish, and pretty effectively. In fact, the fight in the tournament before this one had the Theurge win against the competitor that literally no one was supposed to win against (and it was a close one, too.)

So, I'd say this particular character is a solid example of Player > Build > Class in play. This is just the first time, I think, that the Player's come up against some of the more solid limitations of the class.

And again, I've got nothing against Spheres of Power. It's just rough to see a Vancian-heavy player get sore about a single moment where SoP magic wins so handily.

I'm sorry, but there is no way to play a Mystic Theurge/Spellsword Gish at any level even remotely approaching effective. It doesn't matter how good the player is, the numbers just aren't there.
It goes completely against what the MT offers (low BAB, low HD, massive MAD issues). It's possibly to make a MT work, but you'd actually have to focus on its strengths, not its weaknesses.
That's clearly not the case here. That's not low optimization, it's "this build may regularly have trouble with CR-appropriate enemies straight from the MM".

This isn't an issue of Vancian magic losing out against SoP. It isn't even an issue of the MT as a class - what you've described for the wind mage is well within reach for one.
It's a badly build character being played completely against its strengths (for a loose definition of the term) losing to a halfway decently build one actually doing what they're good at.
I'd be surprised if the MT player didn't see a drastic surge in effectiveness just by focusing on what their character is actually build for (spellcasting) instead of trying to do something it's very much not designed for (melee combat).

[Psyren]

You allowed PvP, and then PvP broke everything horribly. The solution seems self-evident, here.

FTFY

@OP - if 3.P or whatever you're playing is badly designed for PvP, the third-party stuff like Spheres and PoW is even moreso. It was designed to be used against monsters that regularly challenge T3+ parties that are at least moderately optimized, and do so reliably for multiple encounters per day; not for discrete bursty fights whose challenge level can vary wildly depending on player build and skill level.

[Crake]

My guess is that the wind mage read the greater blast talent wrong.

Admittedly it's poorly written, but when it says the damage of your destructive blast increases by one die, it doesn't mean one die size, it means, literally, one die, so you add an extra d6. Sounds like she took it twice, so she should have done 11d6, not 9d10.

That's a pretty significant difference in average damage, 38.5 average damage on 11d6, vs 49.5 average damage on 9d10, a whole 11 extra points of damage on average, as well as a massive difference in potential, a maximum of 66 on 11d6 (a lower maximum than she apparently rolled, having not rolled less than a 7 on any dice) vs a maximum of 90 on 9d10, as well as more dice resulting in a more even distribution, so yeah, things get OP when you read rules wrong.

[RoboEmperor]

I wouldn't go that far. The MT is a pretty seasoned player, actually; might come from a lot of low-optimization tables, but still pretty solid. And since game one, she's been played as a Gish, and pretty effectively. In fact, the fight in the tournament before this one had the Theurge win against the competitor that literally no one was supposed to win against (and it was a close one, too.)

So, I'd say this particular character is a solid example of Player > Build > Class in play. This is just the first time, I think, that the Player's come up against some of the more solid limitations of the class.

And again, I've got nothing against Spheres of Power. It's just rough to see a Vancian-heavy player get sore about a single moment where SoP magic wins so handily.

Again either tone down the wind mage if hes way stronger than the other players, or tell the mystic theurge to get good.

If he was fine PvE then doing PvP was the problem. Tell him that this game is not designed for PvP and you've completely gimped your character with these terrible build choices so of course you're going to be pathetic compared to normal spellcasting classes so stop crying.

[Afgncaap5]

My guess is that the wind mage read the greater blast talent wrong.

Admittedly it's poorly written, but when it says the damage of your destructive blast increases by one die, it doesn't mean one die size, it means, literally, one die, so you add an extra d6. Sounds like she took it twice, so she should have done 11d6, not 9d10.

That... looks almost exactly like what's happening, actually. Thanks for the heads up.

[Manyasone]

Also. Is the wind mage using the air/gale/hurricane blasts? Because air does non lethal damage all the way, last I checked. Or is it more storm mage with thunder lightning and sonic damage?

[MrSandman]

My guess is that the wind mage read the greater blast talent wrong.

Admittedly it's poorly written, but when it says the damage of your destructive blast increases by one die, it doesn't mean one die size, it means, literally, one die, so you add an extra d6. Sounds like she took it twice, so she should have done 11d6, not 9d10.

That's a pretty significant difference in average damage, 38.5 average damage on 11d6, vs 49.5 average damage on 9d10, a whole 11 extra points of damage on average, as well as a massive difference in potential, a maximum of 66 on 11d6 (a lower maximum than she apparently rolled, having not rolled less than a 7 on any dice) vs a maximum of 90 on 9d10, as well as more dice resulting in a more even distribution, so yeah, things get OP when you read rules wrong.


That... looks almost exactly like what's happening, actually. Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, but that doesn't solve the issues with the MT. If the MT can't deal with one caster dealing 9d10 in one shot at level 9, it's a build problem. Any low optimised caster can deal a similar amount of damage. An empowered fireball cast at level 9 deals 9d6 * 1.5 (avg 47.25, max 81 pts of damage), which is in the neighbourhood of the 9d10.

[EldritchWeaver]

There isn't much too add. The windmage employs a system which has been balanced towards staying power, while the MT uses a system balanced towards 3.5 encounters daily. Then you are in a situation, where you have several encounters without rest. So overall it is to be expected that the fight between windmage and MT is skewed towards the windmage by design. If you add optimized/non-optimized and well-managed/poorly-managed into the mix, the MT could only win with a Hail Mary.

Assuming, all players had the same options and created the characters at the same time, the fault can't be placed on the windmage. Even if the Destruction HB has been added later, the chosen options are kinda tame. I can get unlimited AoEs with admixtured rider effects (Crystal Blast is nice), so this is on the low-end of SoP. Personally, I see only two solutions work. The first that the expectations of the MT need to change. He is a support caster, not a damage dealer. Winning the previous round is likely more too luck or incorrect assumptions in regards to the capabilities of the opponent (maybe MT exploited a weakness). He will never be a damage dealer. The second is to change char builds. And since I am more a fan to buff people than debuffing people (in particular ones, who aren't actually overpowered), I would look into the MT here as well. Admittedly, I have no clue how to optimize that class, so the only thing which comes to my mind is convert that guy to SoP. Which will reduce the breadth of options, but at least SoP provides a good optimization floor. But maybe someone has a less intrusive idea.

[Calthropstu]

So, we have a wind mage vs a MT eh?

Yeah, at lvl 9 he's gonna get trounced. Lvl 7-10 are the worst for power disparity for theurge. Add the lvl of fighter (WHY?) and this guy is nerfing himself bad.

Being one shotted always sucks, but it's predictable. 1d10 vs 1d6+2 (most point buy results) will eventually drop it one shot. Like the rest, I am curious how far behind this theurge is. He's not doing 9d6, he's more likely doing 5d6 having JUST gotten fireball.
That is the problem. He's playing lvl 5 powers against lvl 9 and is lising. Now, to be fair, in a few levels he's going to have a LOT of spells to play with. Where theurge hits its sweet spot is lvl 13 or so when they can start pumping lvl 5 spells left and right (14 for this guy)

Wait... He never gets lvl 9s. And gets lvl 7s at lvl 18. Yeah, he needs to trade that fighter lvl for theurge fast.

[Elkad]

Defense failure by the theurge, who - since it was PvP vs a known teammate - should have had a good guess as to what damage types he'd be facing. Or at least known to pump his TouchAC/Misschance/MirrorImages into the "you can't hit me" category.
And a rule misinterpretation with the die size increase?
And then hot dice on damage.

I don't see a balance problem here.

Looking at other similar rays.

CL11 (easy +2 CL boost) Scorching Ray is 12d6.
CL9 Empowered Scorching Ray is 12d6
Combine them for 18d6

Empowered Energy Ray is 10.5d6, or more with ML boosts, with choice of Energy Type, and the Psion will have Barbarian hitpoints.

None of those are even remotely high-op and in the ballpark with the SoP character.
Stack stuff like (Greater) Psionic Shot on those - reasonable for a blasting toon, and it gets even better.

[noce]

A lvl 9 pure fighter with a belt of battle deals 42 damage per round, not counting Power Attack. And with 6 feats to choose.
And we're talking about a pure fighter.

Damage is not the problem here.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Now, to be fair, in a few levels he's going to have a LOT of spells to play with. Where theurge hits its sweet spot is lvl 13 or so when they can start pumping lvl 5 spells left and right (14 for this guy)


That's a common misconception, but between the 3 level lag and need to focus on two different casting stats a (non early entry) theurge doesn't actually get that many more spells than a single-class caster for most of their career. And that's before factoring in that the MTs spells will also be lower level, have lower CL and worse save DCs and all the other problems of split focus.

For reference a Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 7 gets 4/4/3/3/2 wizard spells and 5/5/4/4/3 cleric spells base, or 16 + 21 = 37 spells before ability scores.
Assuming a start with 16 Int/16 Wis (rather generous since you'll have basically nothing left for Con), +3 from levels in one score and a +4 item for both we end up with 22 Int/20 Wis, adding another 2/2/1/1/1 (7) for the wizard side and 2/1/1/1/1 (6) for the cleric side, for a total of 50 spells.
A pure level 13 cleric gets 6/6/5/5/4/3/2 or 31 spells before ability scores. Assuming a starting Wis 18, +3 from levels and a +4 item for a total of 25 Wis adds 2/2/2/1/1/1/1 (10) for a total of 41 spells.

So the MT ends up with 9 more spells, but only 7 of 5th level. Most are low level spells that won't be sufficient for the encounters to face on their own, so you'll have to cast several of them.
The cleric has 6th and 7th level spells, with a total of 12 spells 5th level or higher. Quite a few of which can end an encounter on their own.

So if you're going by "throwing 5th level spells left and right" the pure caster is actually better off than the theurge. A non-specialist wizard or druid would of course have 1 spell per level less, but they'd still have more spells of the theurges best level and higher than the theurge.

[daremetoidareyo]

Your MT needs some wands yo.

[RoboEmperor]

As others have pointed out, scorching ray and other blasting spells pretty much do as much damage as the wind mage so the blame is 100% on the MT for doing 0% optimization, just grabbing what he feels like is cool, and crying when his character is craptastic.

A simple no shenanigan sorcerer with maximized lesser orb of fire with no metamagic reducers will annihilate this MT and I bet he'll cry that such a thing is OP and BS.

I've been in games where an optimizer trivialized other players but that's not what's happening here.

You claim he can gish but I doubt that. You're expected to do 5 * ECL damage a round in normal optimization and I think this theurge is significantly below that with both gimped casting and gimped BAB. He's got literally absolutely nothing going for his character. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's like watching someone go a rogue1/dreadnecro1/fighter1/barb1/cleric1/wiz1 and crying that other people are stronger than his.

My advice to you is, using nicer words, tell the MT that the wind mage is normal and that his character is crap so blame yourself for being weaker than a standard straight 20 BARBARIAN/FIGHTER/sorcerer/favored soul. That's the reason you don't stand a chance.

I mean if your character is weaker than a standard 20 base class then you really can't blame other people unless you're a crybaby scrub in which case you'll blame everyone and everything but yourself.

[Calthropstu]

You guys are assuming cl 9, this guy has cl 5. He is 4 lvls behind. So his max is 5d6. Not 9. His opening move should have been invisibility.

Then mirror image, and a few summons. Then just fire away with inflict, magic missle etc.

Kinda looks like he went into this with nothing active which makes him supremely disadvantaged.

[Afgncaap5]

Indeed. Neither party was allowed to have pre-active buffs per tournament rules, in fact. And all casting needed to happen through plot-device weaponry that casters could cast into, as a way of allowing magical casters into an otherwise wholly martial tournament. And against the martially-minded elementalist class, the tournament rules strongly hinder the Theurge.

And despite the protestations from the crowd that it isn't really possible, the Mystic Theurge character *was* holding her own in solo battles against CR 8 to 11 combats. But the Theurge's initial strike dealing over eighty points of damage right off the bat isn't exactly the best opening for any ninth level caster to take in full force. Not a single one of the (erroneously used) d10s had less than a 7. As said before, it was a statistically improbable roll that set it all off.

[MrSandman]

Indeed. Neither party was allowed to have pre-active buffs per tournament rules, in fact. And all casting needed to happen through plot-device weaponry that casters could cast into, as a way of allowing magical casters into an otherwise wholly martial tournament. And against the martially-minded elementalist class, the tournament rules strongly hinder the Theurge.

And despite the protestations from the crowd that it isn't really possible, the Mystic Theurge character *was* holding her own in solo battles against CR 8 to 11 combats. But the Theurge's initial strike dealing over eighty points of damage right off the bat isn't exactly the best opening for any ninth level caster to take in full force. Not a single one of the (erroneously used) d10s had less than a 7. As said before, it was a statistically improbable roll that set it all off.

Wait, are you saying that the TM managed to withstand a level 12 elementalist? The one that can deal 12d6+12 (avg 54, higher than 9d10 and max only six points below) plus weapon damage in one blow? The one that should get a talent to treat all 1s and 2s as 3s for her bludgeoning blast?

Or by CR 8 to 11 you mean level instead? Or were the elementalists low CR?

What we're saying is that any decent character should be able to deal the kind of damage that the wind mage did.

[Lotheb]

What was the challenge the MT overcame that was supposed to be unbeatable anyway?

[Calthropstu]

Wait, are you saying that the TM managed to withstand a level 12 elementalist? The one that can deal 12d6+12 (avg 54, higher than 9d10 and max only six points below) plus weapon damage in one blow? The one that should get a talent to treat all 1s and 2s as 3s for her bludgeoning blast?

Or by CR 8 to 11 you mean level instead? Or were the elementalists low CR?

What we're saying is that any decent character should be able to deal the kind of damage that the wind mage did.

To the standards of this board? Sure.

To the standards set out in the "wild," not so much. I have seen melee builds doing 3 attacks at 1d8+5 each attack at lvl 10 (+3 str and +2 weapon).

So the standard should really be to the rest of the table. I know we are bashing the poorly made MT, but if it's close to par for the table and the wind mage is the outlier, OP has a real problem.

Op, could you post the damage capacity of the martial party members?

[Crake]

Indeed. Neither party was allowed to have pre-active buffs per tournament rules, in fact. And all casting needed to happen through plot-device weaponry that casters could cast into, as a way of allowing magical casters into an otherwise wholly martial tournament. And against the martially-minded elementalist class, the tournament rules strongly hinder the Theurge.

And despite the protestations from the crowd that it isn't really possible, the Mystic Theurge character *was* holding her own in solo battles against CR 8 to 11 combats. But the Theurge's initial strike dealing over eighty points of damage right off the bat isn't exactly the best opening for any ninth level caster to take in full force. Not a single one of the (erroneously used) d10s had less than a 7. As said before, it was a statistically improbable roll that set it all off.

I would let them rematch, this time with the wind mage using the rules correctly, since, even if her roll was statistically improbably, it did MORE than the MAXIMUM of what she SHOULD have been able to do.

[RoboEmperor]

If you're insisting that the wind mage merely got lucky and that there's nothing wrong with the MT then what is the purpose of this thread? You seem to already have made up your mind. if you believe 100% of the problem lies with the wind mage and his build instead of the MT you are wrong. As others pointed out in this thread, the wind mage is 100% within normal standard spellcasters with no optimization and this is not a Spheres of Power problem at all.

Suboptimal MT even by MT standards loses to a normal spellcaster. There is nobody to blame except him. Crying that a standard spellcaster is too OP is a behavior that must be corrected. Otherwise in the future when he gets curbstomped by a standard 20 cleric in both gishing and spellcasting he's gonna cry again.

I 2nd Crake's suggestion about the rematch.

[Calthropstu]

I third the rematch, add some advice to use invisibility as an opener. Plop on mirror image, blur and a couple other great defensive buffs while invisible.

Add some nice little spells into his blade such as scorching ray or inflict critical, and he should be able to put up a decent fight.

He's still likely to lose if the wind mage gets a couple hits off, but it is by no means a foregone conclusion at that point.

If he doesn't have those spells, well sucks to be him. Without those, he will auto lose.

[MrSandman]

To the standards of this board? Sure.

To the standards set out in the "wild," not so much. I have seen melee builds doing 3 attacks at 1d8+5 each attack at lvl 10 (+3 str and +2 weapon).

So the standard should really be to the rest of the table. I know we are bashing the poorly made MT, but if it's close to par for the table and the wind mage is the outlier, OP has a real problem.

Op, could you post the damage capacity of the martial party members?

I guess you're right, it depends highly on the rest of the table. It's just, I don't quite get how one would make a blaster and manage not to have that sort of power. Has their GM never given empower spell to an NPC? It's not like we're talking high optimisation here.


What was the challenge the MT overcame that was supposed to be unbeatable anyway?

I'd like to know that as well.

[Afgncaap5]

Wait, are you saying that the TM managed to withstand a level 12 elementalist? The one that can deal 12d6+12 (avg 54, higher than 9d10 and max only six points below) plus weapon damage in one blow? The one that should get a talent to treat all 1s and 2s as 3s for her bludgeoning blast?

What? No, no one's level 12. I do know, though that one of the competitors was a level 15 NPC and another level 14, and there were some monsters in the arena line up as well who fit that general CR range. Well... I assume their levels, at least, one of them was made based on my character's backstory and suggestions I gave to the GM about how certain character enemies would be built, but the other I just have what the DM said in off-handed comments to go on. The monsters with CRs are pretty easily checkable, though.



What we're saying is that any decent character should be able to deal the kind of damage that the wind mage did.

Not really disputing that. I was more looking into people's thoughts on how I should talk to people about it since I kinda felt like it should be talked about but I also don't want to step on the DM's toes any. The revelation that the wind mage and DM were almost certainly misinterpreting how a talent should work was super handy, really, so the thread helped me to get that as a way to direct a conversation once I figured out a way to tactfully bring it up.

I messaged them both, and their reactions were "Oh! Wow, yeah, didn't see that..." but they also said that they'd been in talks with each other since the session to figure out how they could potentially swap out those talents for other options since they seemed to be the problems. So, yeah. Thread helped, and the DM was being proactive enough that I think it would've been resolved in due course, which I'm happy about.



What was the challenge the MT overcame that was supposed to be unbeatable anyway?

I should clarify that it was unbeatable by the standards that the DM was setting and it's his first campaign, I don't think the "If it has stats, players can kill it" mentality has really dawned on him yet. It was a level 14 pouncing barbarian with some homebrewed damage reduction and while-raging benefits. I've not asked to see the actual stats, though.



Op, could you post the damage capacity of the martial party members?

Not great, actually. I have a swashbuckler who tends to do around 30-35ish damage if he can get a full round attack action, sometimes more or less depending on die rolls and favorable conditions like friendly spells. Party also has a "gladiator" which is being used by a newer player, based on something that the GM assures me isn't just homebrew and that the gladiator herself assures me isn't homebrew but that I suspect might actually be something homebrewed from the Internet; she can usually do 20 to 25-ish damage on a full attack, but she starts doing a kind of "wearying" nonlethal damage effect if she fights the same target for consecutive rounds (I dunno, is that something from Pathfinder? I could see that being a Pathfinder archetype that I just don't know.) Apart from the two of us, the party consists of the Elementalist "wind mage", the gishy Mystic Theurge, a Bard, and a Cleric. Not a lotta standard martial action going on. I think I mentioned earlier that this is a pretty low-optimization table (which is why I decided to go with a Daring Warrior Swashbuckler/Fighter build, honestly. Lotsa fun to play but pretty straightforward in what it does (chandelier swinging notwithstanding).)



If you're insisting that the wind mage merely got lucky and that there's nothing wrong with the MT then what is the purpose of this thread?

Talking about potential ways to discuss the problem, both in a "so, there's some tension at a table I play at" fashion and also in a "something about this just feels off" fashion. And, thankfully, both of those fashions of advice were granted, and I'm grateful. Lots of other people have questions, though, and pretty strong opinions about Mystic Theurge viability (and while I don't wanna defend the build *too* much, I do kinda wanna defend the person playing it because he really is getting more mileage out of the build than I typically see.) So at this point I'm pretty much just answering the remaining follow-up questions that I see posted.

The suggestions about there being a "rematch" aren't without merit, but that might be a *bit* weird since the story's already moved on beyond that via our between-sessions roleplay chat group. Wind Mage already received her favor from the lord of the arena, and other bits of loot distributed. Not impossible to redo things, but that particular genie has a lot of smoke that'd have to be stuffed back into the bottle. I like the idea of a rematch, but I'm not as sure that the two other players or the DM would. I could always suggest it to the three of them, I suppose.

[MrSandman]

Well, at the end of the day, what really matters is that you guys are having fun. If the MT is doing just fine and having fun, then it should be okay. Thanks for your answers, mate.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The suggestions about there being a "rematch" aren't without merit, but that might be a *bit* weird since the story's already moved on beyond that via our between-sessions roleplay chat group. Wind Mage already received her favor from the lord of the arena, and other bits of loot distributed. Not impossible to redo things, but that particular genie has a lot of smoke that'd have to be stuffed back into the bottle. I like the idea of a rematch, but I'm not as sure that the two other players or the DM would. I could always suggest it to the three of them, I suppose.

I'd avoid doing a rematch. Or any kind of retcon except in really serious cases. It's not like anyone died.
My own group generally runs with things even if there were rules misinterpretations at the time they happened (we try to avoid looking things up during play to keep the game flowing) and it has served us well.
It's fine to look things up after the game and then do it the right way going forward, but things that happened stay that way.

Otherwise you'll just open the floor to constant retcon demands and that gets messy fast.

[Crake]

I'd avoid doing a rematch. Or any kind of retcon except in really serious cases. It's not like anyone died.
My own group generally runs with things even if there were rules misinterpretations at the time they happened (we try to avoid looking things up during play to keep the game flowing) and it has served us well.
It's fine to look things up after the game and then do it the right way going forward, but things that happened stay that way.

Otherwise you'll just open the floor to constant retcon demands and that gets messy fast.

While I'd normally agree with you, I'd say it depends on the weight of this tournament. If it was just some casual side thing, then sure, but if it was an important part of the plot moving forward, and the wind mage won by doing something not just highly unlikely, but instead outright beyond her capabilities, then yeah, I'd allow a rematch.

[EldritchWeaver]

Maybe just do a repeat only as a what-if. So no consequences in the gameworld. That would allow to see at least how crippling the various restrictions have been.

[Epic Legand]

It looks like the group has moved on timeline wize. I recommend not trying to rewrite history. You are correct in the power level should not be measured to the world, but to the table....since you will not play with the would, only that table. That being said, you should be honest with the MT, ... What they bought with their levels was poor, then they focused on doing what that build is not good at, gish. The windmage did make a mistake, and also rolled well, but neither of those things invalidates the SOP rules. As has been pointed out those numbers were easy to produce in many standard builds.
The MT gets something in return for all the lost levels, MAD and poor chassis...they get diversity. They can do 50 things the blaster cannot...meaning over 20 games and 60 encounters, they will have something to do in most of them, if not all. The windmage will not be useful in town, search for info, picking the lock ect. Expecting the blaster to not beat the MT in solo is silly...so there is a clear problem of the MT player being unrealistic. Combine that with the mistake in rules use, good rolling, poor tactics from the MT then the end result seams predictable.
The power level of the table is important...but ONE of the players is also the windmage, he to gets to vote on what is a fun build. The MT should not get to force everyone to work at a low level, just because he valued diversity over focus. While you might say the MT is not trying to force out SOP, the problem appears not to be contained to that game session.
As was suggested, a sorcerer build would out damage the windmage, AND offer improved invisibility, mirror image ect. Have the MT build a focused blaster, and run through 3 imaginary fights( out of game). Once they see the issue was THIER build, then any problems they have with SOP as a system will be erased.
Then offer them a chance to rebuild, or accept they have greater utility and less damage output.

[Crake]

It looks like the group has moved on timeline wize. I recommend not trying to rewrite history. You are correct in the power level should not be measured to the world, but to the table....since you will not play with the would, only that table. That being said, you should be honest with the MT, ... What they bought with their levels was poor, then they focused on doing what that build is not good at, gish. The windmage did make a mistake, and also rolled well, but neither of those things invalidates the SOP rules. As has been pointed out those numbers were easy to produce in many standard builds.
The MT gets something in return for all the lost levels, MAD and poor chassis...they get diversity. They can do 50 things the blaster cannot...meaning over 20 games and 60 encounters, they will have something to do in most of them, if not all. The windmage will not be useful in town, search for info, picking the lock ect. Expecting the blaster to not beat the MT in solo is silly...so there is a clear problem of the MT player being unrealistic. Combine that with the mistake in rules use, good rolling, poor tactics from the MT then the end result seams predictable.
The power level of the table is important...but ONE of the players is also the windmage, he to gets to vote on what is a fun build. The MT should not get to force everyone to work at a low level, just because he valued diversity over focus. While you might say the MT is not trying to force out SOP, the problem appears not to be contained to that game session.
As was suggested, a sorcerer build would out damage the windmage, AND offer improved invisibility, mirror image ect. Have the MT build a focused blaster, and run through 3 imaginary fights( out of game). Once they see the issue was THIER build, then any problems they have with SOP as a system will be erased.
Then offer them a chance to rebuild, or accept they have greater utility and less damage output.

Let's be clear, the MT didn't do anything tactically unsound. He was not allowed to pre-buff, and he lost initiative, then lost before he had a chance to act. There's not a whole lot he could have done to prevent that, short of having more HP, which a level 9 MT isn't gonna have a lot of Wizard/MT is D4, fighter is d10, cleric is d8, plus say 3-4 con bonus with items, that puts him at one shot either way.

Being able to survive even 1 round would have given him at least SOME options, but the windmage's erroneous use of d10s is the sole reason for him being one-shot. Even maximize spell wouldn't have let her achieve that same amount of damage.

[iTreeby]

Let's be clear, the MT didn't do anything tactically unsound. He was not allowed to pre-buff, and he lost initiative, then lost before he had a chance to act. There's not a whole lot he could have done to prevent that, short of having more HP, which a level 9 MT isn't gonna have a lot of Wizard/MT is D4, fighter is d10, cleric is d8, plus say 3-4 con bonus with items, that puts him at one shot either way.

Being able to survive even 1 round would have given him at least SOME options, but the windmage's erroneous use of d10s is the sole reason for him being one-shot. Even maximize spell wouldn't have let her achieve that same amount of damage.

Sounds like someone didn't memorize Nerveskitter! Or is that a prebuff?

[MrSandman]

Being able to survive even 1 round would have given him at least SOME options, but the windmage's erroneous use of d10s is the sole reason for him being one-shot. Even maximize spell wouldn't have let her achieve that same amount of damage.

Well, assuming that she was using her favored energy, with maximise spell she'd have dealt 75 damage (11d6 + 9), which isn't far off. And a lucky roll with empower spell would have very much put her damage in the same neighbourhood. So I think that calling the dice mistake the sole reason for that is a bit excessive.

[Crake]

Well, assuming that she was using her favored energy, with maximise spell she'd have dealt 75 damage (11d6 + 9), which isn't far off. And a lucky roll with empower spell would have very much put her damage in the same neighbourhood. So I think that calling the dice mistake the sole reason for that is a bit excessive.

But she did neither of those things already, which seems to imply that empower and maximize aren't in her aresenal, or even if it was, she wouldn't have used it.


Sounds like someone didn't memorize Nerveskitter! Or is that a prebuff?

I'm not sure, but remember the MT went through other encounters that day, and may have used up all his nerveskitters, or is simply not aware of the spell, since not everyone uses these forums as a baseline for their spell selections.

[RoboEmperor]

But she did neither of those things already, which seems to imply that empower and maximize aren't in her aresenal, or even if it was, she wouldn't have used it.

That's not the point. The point is any standard blaster of that level would've achieved that level of damage.

In any case I agree with Epic Legand's opinion. There's nothing wrong with playing and enjoying a sub-op character, but there is something wrong with the sub-op getting mad and blaming a standard op character for his patheticness.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, assuming that she was using her favored energy, with maximise spell she'd have dealt 75 damage (11d6 + 9), which isn't far off. And a lucky roll with empower spell would have very much put her damage in the same neighbourhood. So I think that calling the dice mistake the sole reason for that is a bit excessive.
Every bit matters because that's somewhere around the MT's unbuffed total hp.
We don't know the build or if they're rolling, taking avg+1 or whatever, but assuming 14 Con and a +2 item 60-70hp would be about it.
So the difference between the one-shot and the MT getting to act (and maybe BFC) may depend on a single digit number.

Not that i think the MT would've won (barring really good luck with rolls), but it probably would've stung less if he got to do something.


In any case I agree with Epic Legand's opinion. There's nothing wrong with playing and enjoying a sub-op character, but there is something wrong with the sub-op getting mad and blaming a standard op character for his patheticness.
It's not that rare. The sub-op guy may not even be aware that he's sub-op (which kinda requires that he knows at least a little about optimization to judge his level).
Sub-op is probably his normal. It may be all he knows, so from his perspective your standard-op is broken.

That's the same reason so many DMs ban ToB after all, because at their table melee guys don't take Power Attack (or at least don't optimize it) or splash barbarian for pounce.
They're used to melee flailing near-uselessly at the enemies until the wizard (unaugmented) Fireballs them for "big" damage or the rogue gets in that "big" TWF SA after he's spend a round positioning himself for a full attack.

I've seen more than one player look at Power Attack and go "it's bad because it makes you miss more" or refuse to take metamagic feats because "why would i want to cast a low level spell in a higher slot". I certainly remember making those mistakes myself when i started out, the only difference is that i was interested enough to do my research. Some people are content where they are.

And it's worse in PvP because nobody likes to be the loser.
It's just human nature to get defensive and blame it on the other guy cheating, being a filthy munchkin and so on instead of admitting that you messed up.

[MrSandman]

Every bit matters because that's somewhere around the MT's unbuffed total hp.
We don't know the build or if they're rolling, taking avg+1 or whatever, but assuming 14 Con and a +2 item 60-70hp would be about it.
So the difference between the one-shot and the MT getting to act (and maybe BFC) may depend on a single digit number.


Yes, but


That's not the point. The point is any standard blaster of that level would've achieved that level of damage.

In any case I agree with Epic Legand's opinion. There's nothing wrong with playing and enjoying a sub-op character, but there is something wrong with the sub-op getting mad and blaming a standard op character for his patheticness.

I'm not trying to say "hey, without getting the dice size wrong the result would have been the same." My point is that the damage the wind mage rolled should be expected from the average blaster at that level.

[Epic Legand]

Crake, I do feel he did something tacitly unsound. He took his MT into melee and expected to win.

Let's be clear, the MT didn't do anything tactically unsound. He was not allowed to pre-buff, and he lost initiative, then lost before he had a chance to act. There's not a whole lot he could have done to prevent that, short of having more HP, which a level 9 MT isn't gonna have a lot of Wizard/MT is D4, fighter is d10, cleric is d8, plus say 3-4 con bonus with items, that puts him at one shot either way.

Being able to survive even 1 round would have given him at least SOME options, but the windmage's erroneous use of d10s is the sole reason for him being one-shot. Even maximize spell wouldn't have let her achieve that same amount of damage.

Just that expectation is unrealistic. The same as if I was the race car driver, and you drove to work every day...sure you can drive, but do not expect to beet me at something I am focused on, if you are not. Plus you told us they expended several key spells prior to the battle, while the winner conserved resources for that fight. A clear better use of tactics. However the point might all be moot, after all you are not the DM, and it sounds like the DM was being proactive about it. The point most everyone was saying is simple...SOP is not overpowered, and if your friend like the MT he should keep it...but that is no excuse to drag a medium teir caster down because the MT wants his build to dominate. Yes the misjudged rules threw off the damage, but honestly The total damage was not at all special. Combust, empowered ( with a $3,000 GP crystal) does an average of 67 ( at 10th level) without weapon damage...that's a simple 2ed level spell. One is a spell in the spell compendium, the other is in the magic item book...neither is rare or hard to find.

I hope your table finds a balance.

[RoboEmperor]

It's not that rare. The sub-op guy may not even be aware that he's sub-op (which kinda requires that he knows at least a little about optimization to judge his level).
Sub-op is probably his normal. It may be all he knows, so from his perspective your standard-op is broken.

That's the same reason so many DMs ban ToB after all, because at their table melee guys don't take Power Attack (or at least don't optimize it) or splash barbarian for pounce.
They're used to melee flailing near-uselessly at the enemies until the wizard (unaugmented) Fireballs them for "big" damage or the rogue gets in that "big" TWF SA after he's spend a round positioning himself for a full attack.

I've seen more than one player look at Power Attack and go "it's bad because it makes you miss more" or refuse to take metamagic feats because "why would i want to cast a low level spell in a higher slot". I certainly remember making those mistakes myself when i started out, the only difference is that i was interested enough to do my research. Some people are content where they are.

And it's worse in PvP because nobody likes to be the loser.
It's just human nature to get defensive and blame it on the other guy cheating, being a filthy munchkin and so on instead of admitting that you messed up.

I'm not saying the MT is a mother****** that needs to die. As you've said, it is a common human response to the given stimuli. But it is a response that needs to be corrected. Otherwise he will be a scrub for who knows how long and may ruin other people's fun. If he was salty towards the wind mage then he ruined that wind mage's fun when he is the one at fault. All's I'm saying.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not saying the MT is a mother****** that needs to die. As you've said, it is a common human response to the given stimuli. But it is a response that needs to be corrected. Otherwise he will be a scrub for who knows how long and may ruin other people's fun. If he was salty towards the wind mage then he ruined that wind mage's fun when he is the one at fault. All's I'm saying.

Yes, ideally the MT will get on the internet and look up what he could do better, maybe even crack the books himself instead of just copying a build from somewhere.
Or at least take his defeat and the fact that another player does more damage with grace. But the world is rarely ideal.

The OP can certainly try. It's just that in my experience the people likely to do that would've already done it (according to the OP they're not a newbie after all).
That they haven't makes it likely that they won't now either. Not that i know the player in question, but i've certainly met the type before.

It also depends on the rest of the group. In the interest of group harmony it may be necessary to adjust the standard-op guy down. Because some tables simply don't want to optimize better.
And if that's the situation the odd guy out is the standard-op one, so it's on him to keep to the level of the rest.

Or find a group that plays more on his level. I know there's a point of optimization i'd rather not play below. :smalltongue:

[Quertus]

FTFY

@OP - if 3.P or whatever you're playing is badly designed for PvP, the third-party stuff like Spheres and PoW is even moreso. It was designed to be used against monsters that regularly challenge T3+ parties that are at least moderately optimized, and do so reliably for multiple encounters per day; not for discrete bursty fights whose challenge level can vary wildly depending on player build and skill level.

I agree with this - it sounds like the GM ruined everyone's day with a PvP scenarion. And it's the GM who needs to learn from this.

[Fizban]

Anyone considered the possibility that the MT's build is actually fantastic for what it is, rather than them just being dumb for playing it? They've got the Spellsword in there, which is essentially used only by builds cramming in an extra full BAB casting level, which indicates someone who might very well know what they're doing. People saying the fighter level needs to go, when the whole point of the character is the "gish," and fighter is in fact the most efficient way to get get the proficiencies and a feat at the same time.

I remember SilverClaw's second big campaign journal, Crystal Cantrips I think it was, where the most powerful character in the party (by the party's own estimation) was the one with the most ridiculous build. Swashbuckler into wizard into archivist, followed possibly by the dread Mystic Theurge. How was that? Well they weren't being compared to optimized single classed full casters, or content that's basically meant to be warlocks but better. And they made perfect use of the abilities they selected for very specific reasons, starting out with the old True Strike into maximum power attack, then picking up inflict spells to heal the Warlock's undead they were starting to rely on, before adding their own control pool, and all the rest of their spells.

The basic MT build is a better caster than Bard, outside of one or two specific ECLs that this character is probably right on top of. If someone rolled up running a Bard with a Fighter dip, no one would go off on them for being terrible, even if they said they were never using bardic music (say because they want casting open and can't afford the special feat that lets you cast while singing).


I think it's clear that Spheres of Power was not right for this game, especially in light of this arena arc that seems to have massively favored it, but the DM's allowed it and y'all gotta deal now. I'd be looking into how fine of an adjustment I could pull if needed, but only the DM would have the data to calibrate that.

A re-fight would probably not help in my estimate. Most likely the sphere character wins again, since the MT isn't even allowed to use their build properly (and I'll bet that all the other combatants whose only daily resources were hp were getting free heals in between, ha). Even if the MT did pull a win, I'd expect it to make them more bitter that the last few sessions of playtime were spent having lost, while the sphere user obviously wouldn't like having their win retconned out. It's a lose-lose.

The solution, if one were to really take a go at it, would be to make sure the next major arc or "competition" (and royal favor or whatever cool prestige thing they missed out on) would, behind the scenes, be pretty well flatly impossible for anyone to pull off but the MT. Setting that up without it being obvious would be difficult- it's not hard to come up with a series of spells that no one else in the party can cast, but devising and running a scenario convincingly so that it looks like they're supposed to fail but instead they miraculously find a way when you've secretly made sure they will succeed, is kinda the holy grail. You've got to make sure the prepared caster knows what to prepare, which means they need to have the information and interpret it correctly, and you've gotta thread that through the two characters' effect lists.

There's always the "invent a special item just for them" gambit, which could even be supplied by some other NPC who was impressed by the MT and thought they got "robbed" and set someone to work on it. But without the right RP foreshadowing that sort of thing always smacks of pandering, and often does even after a bunch of setup.

[MrSandman]

So, basically allowing people to make tier 3 casters instead of tier 1 broke the game, the MT is perfectly built, and the solution is to next time tailor the challenge perfectly to the MT so that the others suck?

[Afgncaap5]

Well, assuming that she was using her favored energy, with maximise spell she'd have dealt 75 damage (11d6 + 9), which isn't far off. And a lucky roll with empower spell would have very much put her damage in the same neighbourhood. So I think that calling the dice mistake the sole reason for that is a bit excessive.

Worth pointing out that even without the Maximise or Empower feats, the resultant damage was something like 86 or 87. I'm not gonna call the dice mistake the sole reason for the MT feeling like there was too much damage at once, but I feel like it's a pretty solid primary.



I think it's clear that Spheres of Power was not right for this game

Definitely gonna agree with that. Our GM is, I think, making the mistake of many first-time GMs and allowing everything their players have ever heard of, and the limits he's put on that are not as limiting as he thinks. That's kinda why I feel responsible for the situation since I allowed SoP when I was running my previous 3.5 game. The *good* news is that GMs who make that mistake can often figure out how to handle sneakier power situations later down the line, so here's hoping it's a chance for growth.



Anyone considered the possibility that the MT's build is actually fantastic for what it is, rather than them just being dumb for playing it? They've got the Spellsword in there, which is essentially used only by builds cramming in an extra full BAB casting level, which indicates someone who might very well know what they're doing. People saying the fighter level needs to go, when the whole point of the character is the "gish," and fighter is in fact the most efficient way to get get the proficiencies and a feat at the same time.


I think "fantastic" might be overselling it, but I do think the player *does* know what he's doing. He's aware of TO builds and such, but really goes out of his way to avoid high optimization thinking with his characters and at his tables when he's a DM (from what I hear, haven't actually played in his games.) A result of this is that sometimes he really gets into the flavor of a class that a lot of folks on these optimization-heavy boards would dismiss out of hand. Case in point, he often tries to experiment with ways to get True Necromancer to work even though I generally hear about that one being dismissed in favor of a number of other necromancer builds.

Which I can't really fault him for. I mean, I'm playing a Swashbuckler in this game, for heaven's sake. Like I said earlier, it's a low optimization table, and some of us are pulling punches where we will because of it.



So, basically allowing people to make tier 3 casters instead of tier 1 broke the game, the MT is perfectly built, and the solution is to next time tailor the challenge perfectly to the MT so that the others suck?

No, I think the solution is, as has been said, politely talking things over with people, fixing the d10 mistake, making friends, and carrying on. At this point I think the problem's been causing more tension in this thread than it has been in real life. Tomorrow'll be the real test of that, though, when we have our next session. My prediction, though, is that things'll be fine since the DM was pretty proactive about talking to people.

[EldritchWeaver]

I think it's clear that Spheres of Power was not right for this game, especially in light of this arena arc that seems to have massively favored it, but the DM's allowed it and y'all gotta deal now.

You say this as if the DM always planned for PvP and afterwards he added SoP. But the actual root cause lies within the broken balance of the WotC classes. ToB/PoW, SoM and SoP change things enough that you can built competitive characters easily. Which is great. Wherein the DMs failure lies, is that he didn't remove the broken stuff - or at least warned about that certain combinations can fall short compared to others. But it seems that a number of people see only that additional options have been added and automatically assume that the new options are the broken ones. That's not a honest approach to analyze a situation which has been already shown to be stacked against the MT by virtue of the DM's rules, even if excluding that the MT had already several encounters.