Super Smash Bros: Ultimate - Living up to the subtitle.

[Qwertystop]

I started off going through Classic aiming for high difficulty, but then I got a 9.9 with Jigglypuff and found that there doesn't seem to be any new challenge, harder boss, etc. for a high-difficulty run. Except possibly Crazy Hand showing up if they used Master Hand for the boss fight, which occurs much lower than that, but I'm not sure whether that's a difficulty thing or a which-character-did-you-pick thing. Since then I've just been going for 2.0 to keep it moving quickly and get through the unlocks.

[danzibr]

going through Classic.

the characters I've made most success with intensity are: Peach/Daisy, Zero-suit Samus and Ike, who have all broke 6.0. second in place in that are Fox and Falco.

when I unlocked Ridely, I got the LOWEST intensity score I ever had. I'm actually the worst at that character -_-

Daisy and Zero-Suit Samus might be my new mains, but I want to be good with Mii swordfighter so I can kick ass in the maid outfit and her broom. just the thought of beating people up as a humble maid is awesome to me.
Hehe, nice.

Also, remember how I said Ike’s down throw -> aether combo got removed? Well, it didn’t, but it works at different percentages than it used to. It used to only be reliable at 0%, but I’m finding it not working then, yet working at higher percentages. I’m pleased.

[tonberrian]

(see: Giga Mac...)

Did you beat Giga Mac? This one's been wrecking my face...

[boj0]

Well I just got 100% completion in World of Light, it's a fun mode; some of the fights are cheesy but for the most part are very clever and a cool nod to other characters.

The only other complaint I have is once you find certain spirits, most of the game becomes a bit tedious - it stops being a fun challenge and just becomes a matter of going through the motions.

[Lord Raziere]

Hi there,

What are the differences between peach and daisy?

I've played them both, they seem identical as people claim, unfortunately. if there is any difference, its too subtle for me to tell. I mean....IT FEELS as if her side B attack is a little faster, and it feels as if she always uses the golf club while peach doesn't but that might just be my mind tricking itself. all that really seems different is aesthetics, when other fighters have similar differences that they are rolled into the same fighter like the Bowser Jrs. It can't be model limitations to only recolors, Bowser Jrs are all different looking models.

so.

yeah, color me confused.

I might have to extensively test how they play to see if there is any justification for them being separate. it might be as justified as Dr. Mario. but then again, Dr. Mario might still have a spin attack unlike normal mario's stupid fludd move.

[Zevox]

Finished World of Light! Liked it quite a bit all in all.
I would definitely say that the first part, while neat with how certain spirits would help you progress through various parts of the world, drug on for too long, especially if you cleared the whole map (and to an extent you had to, to make sure you got any spirits that were needed to progress). Beyond that though, pretty nice. Most of the spirit battles make sense for the thing the spirit is based on (at least, the ones I recognized did, some nitpicks aside), and while some got frustrating, they were all in all fairly fun.

And the bosses were just very well done. Galeem and Dharkon were great both individually and together in the end (I especially liked that their attacks cold hurt each other, and they often liked to aim for each other rather than just you), Ganon and Dracula were fantastic adaptations of those fights (the Dracula fight being much better than the one it's based on, even), and Rathalos was the best boss of part 1. Master & Crazy Hand and Giga Bowser are of course Smash classics, have to have them. The other Dark World one is kind of eh to me, but perhaps if I had played whatever game it's from (I assume it's a Kirby boss, judging by its look?) I'd like it a lot more.

The only kind of disappointing one is Galleom (I think that was its name? The big robot). He's just from Brawl if memory serves, not anything else, and while I liked Subspace Emissary, gotta say, other than Tabuu, its original bosses weren't very memorable, and I would rather they have done something else instead of bring him back. I mean, heck, Snake's found in the facility where the Galleom boss battle happens - just switch it to being a Metal Gear of some kind instead. Boom, better giant robot fight.

If anything, I'd have liked a couple more boss fights, honestly. Bring in The Black Knight or King Garon in the Dark World perhaps, or Balder (from Bayonetta) in the Light World. Maybe a big legendary Pokémon somewhere like they did with Rayquaza in Brawl, or Medusa or Hades, or Doctor Wily in one of his machines. There are plenty of good options to choose from. But what we got was almost entirely really good, so this is hardly a complaint.

And of course, playing as the Master Hand and the whole final stage were just a fantastic capstone to it. Kudos there. It may have started out a slow, kind of uninspiring experience, but it ended great.

Did you beat Giga Mac? This one's been wrecking my face...
I did, though I had to lame it out. Played as Richter and just kept playing keepaway, chucking a lot of crosses and occasional holy fire or axe, every once in a while smacking him with a fair or bair whip strike if the positioning was right. Take advantage of the fact that he has to jump over the sides of the ring if you do and his air moves suck (and he generally doesn't even bother to use them), basically. Takes a while, but it wins. Other characters with good projectiles could probably accomplish the same thing, Richter was just my pick.

My spirit for the fight was a level 70-something Light Suit Samus, with weapon damage up and reduced landing lag support spirits.

[tonberrian]

These stamina/super armor fights are pretty much all the worst for me. My current bane is... Baby Bowser? Lava on an Omega Stage, so nowhere to stand free without sinking two slots into Lava Immunity, first you fight a 100 hp tiny Bowser, then a 100 hp giant Bowser with super armor. I got real close last time but i didn't have a retry handy so when he went away I was out of luck.

Anybody have a good strategy for farming SP? I've got to summon all these dudes I've got the tokens for so I know which ones I need to pick up on the board and in the shops (which, also, are extremely expensive). I don't necessarily want to sink another 20 hours in the World of Light to reset all the 5000 SP chests, but if that's what I have to do that's what I have to do, I guess.

[Rodin]

For Stamina fights in general I've found Fox to be invaluable. Just sit at the edge of the stage and plink away with his laser, with a Franklin Badge equipped if you can afford the slots. It generally doesn't take much effort to stay away and just clear them.

The other tactic for tough fights is to combine "Start as Metal" and "Start as Giant" and then go ham as Bowser. He won't flinch in the face of projectiles and you can usually do a huge amount of damage before the effect ends.

[boj0]

The other tactic for tough fights is to combine "Start as Metal" and "Start as Giant" and then go ham as Bowser. He won't flinch in the face of projectiles and you can usually do a huge amount of damage before the effect ends.

The number of fights that were reduced to "dash attack into up smash" by playing giant, metal Bowser is incredibly high

[Rising Phoenix]

I've played them both, they seem identical as people claim, unfortunately. if there is any difference, its too subtle for me to tell. I mean....IT FEELS as if her side B attack is a little faster, and it feels as if she always uses the golf club while peach doesn't but that might just be my mind tricking itself. all that really seems different is aesthetics, when other fighters have similar differences that they are rolled into the same fighter like the Bowser Jrs. It can't be model limitations to only recolors, Bowser Jrs are all different looking models.

so.

yeah, color me confused.

I might have to extensively test how they play to see if there is any justification for them being separate. it might be as justified as Dr. Mario. but then again, Dr. Mario might still have a spin attack unlike normal mario's stupid fludd move.

Thanks, that's been my conclusion as well.

-----

On a different none. Online play is very laggy atm. Which is a shame...Hope ninty fix it.

[Felyndiira]

Anybody have a good strategy for farming SP? I've got to summon all these dudes I've got the tokens for so I know which ones I need to pick up on the board and in the shops (which, also, are extremely expensive). I don't necessarily want to sink another 20 hours in the World of Light to reset all the 5000 SP chests, but if that's what I have to do that's what I have to do, I guess.

If you can reliably do 2-star and 3-star spirits quickly, the easiest way to get SP is to farm the spirit board. Dismissing a spirit nets you SP and the core, which you can sell for even more SP. For 2-star and up spirits, leveling them once with a medium food increases their value by about 230 or so which more than offsets the cost of the food.

Releasing a one-star spirit gets you 200 SP (100 + 100 for core)
Releasing a two-star spirit gets you 500 SP (200 + 300 for core)
Releasing a three-star spirit gets you 1300 SP (600 + 700 for core)
(Releasing a four-star spirit gets you 2500 SP iirc, if you can complete legend missions easily)

Added to the 200 you get from feeding a spirit a bonus snack and you can rack up a ton of SP in short order.

You can dismiss WoL spirits for SP in the same way, but if you're collecting them, the spirit board gives you duplicates to dismiss without disrupting your collection.

[tonberrian]

Actually, your rewards for fighting a spirit on the board depend on your own equipped spirit. A level 99 four-star spirit only gets rewards from Aces and Legends (and like 30 for the former but up to 300 for the latter), but having no team whatsoever gets you rewards from Advanced and Novices. There might also be a tendency to find spirits you don't have currently have (because you've evolved them or dismissed them), but that might just be confirmation bias. I did notice that the board will tend to throw a spirit you're having trouble with repeatedly at you (so many times I drew Baby Bowser, but no other legends).

[Felyndiira]

Actually, your rewards for fighting a spirit on the board depend on your own equipped spirit. A level 99 four-star spirit only gets rewards from Aces and Legends (and like 30 for the former but up to 300 for the latter), but having no team whatsoever gets you rewards from Advanced and Novices. There might also be a tendency to find spirits you don't have currently have (because you've evolved them or dismissed them), but that might just be confirmation bias. I did notice that the board will tend to throw a spirit you're having trouble with repeatedly at you (so many times I drew Baby Bowser, but no other legends).

Right, I'm not speaking about the direct rewards, but dismissing the spirit you get and selling the core to get SP. No matter how powerful of a team you use in the fight, you always get the spirit itself if you complete the shield game, which can be dismissed + core sold for a fixed amount of SP.

If you have a board of, say, 1 ace 3 advanced spirits that you can knock out easily, and you are decent at the shield game, dismissing all of them and selling the cores will net you 2800 SP. Feeding them each a Medium snack beforehand increases this to about 3600 after deducting the cost of the snack+feeding.

You can do this for a repeat run of adventure mode, too.

[Zevox]

On a different none. Online play is very laggy atm. Which is a shame...Hope ninty fix it.
Really? I tried it last night, and aside from one match, didn't have any real lag issues. And that one match was a 4 player free-for-all, so it's not surprising that would be laggy.

My issue with the online at the moment is, well, basically what me ending in a 4-player free-for-all implies: they did not do the priorities right on matching people with "similar rules preferences." If I'm telling the game I want a 1-on-1, it really shouldn't be dropping me into a 4 player free-for-all. Most of the other rules can be more flexible if they have to be, fine, but whether you prefer a FFA, 1-on-1, or Team should really be set in stone, barring there being literally nobody else looking for that. Actually, something that would help is being able to tell the game whether to only give you an exact match on certain preferences - trade a possibly longer wait time for greater certainty of getting what you want. Given there's currently almost no wait time at all (which is pretty impressive actually, compared to basically every other fighting game out there, even the popular ones), I'd be happy to make that trade.

Also, doing this I learned that "No Hazard" stages might not be as hazardless as I'd have thought. I was surprised to get the no-hazards version of the Ice Climbers stage The Summit last night and find that it still has the slippery effect on the ice floors, still breaks off and slides down the mountain, and you're still dead as can be if you touch the mountainside while it's sliding. Why on earth those aren't considered hazards, or what it actually turned off on that stage, I have no clue. That kind of sucks, since it limits how many stages the whole "No Hazards" mode actually helps with. I might have to think about favoring Battlefield/Omega stages instead still, depending on how often the bad ones come up with No Hazards rules...

Anyway, when I played online last night, it was all as Palutena. I was a bit over-enthusiastic about her buffs earlier I'd say. She does seem better, but not by as much as I'd hoped. Her smash attacks are probably faster on startup, but still pretty hefty on recovery, she still feels very vulnerable on whiff or block against actual human opponents. Her f-tilt is definitely a much better, more usable move, but still not great - the first hit of her jab is still her fast move of choice if they're close enough. Explosive Flame is pretty nice... when I can actually get it to hit. The problem is that it feels like rolling the dice, I really can't figure out how to get it to come out where I want it to. It seems to have two distances it can appear at, one closer to her and one further, but nothing I try seems to give me either one consistently. It's like the move is actually random, which I really hope it isn't. Whatever's going on there, it's definitely not intuitive, though. All in all, definitely still like her a lot and will certainly keep playing her, but not so sure she'll be my new main.

I'm thinking tonight I'll go online again with one of the new characters. Probably either Richter or Chrom.

Single-player wise I'm still dropping into the Spirit Board and World of Light (on New Game+ and hard difficulty - though the latter doesn't seem to have changed much, honestly) every so often, and doing a Classic mode run here or there, but mostly to gain gold to spend in the shop on unlocking music and Mii Costumes. And hot damn, there's a Mii Swordfighter costume for Isaac. Not as good as him actually being playable by a long shot, but it's more than I expected, so I'll take it. And interestingly, old Mii Costumes for now-playable characters still seem to be in, as I've seen both Chrom and K. Rool. I hope that means all the old costumes are still in, I want the Proto Man one for my Gunner, but haven't seen either piece of it yet.

[Rising Phoenix]

Really? I tried it last night, and aside from one match, didn't have any real lag issues. And that one match was a 4 player free-for-all, so it's not surprising that would be laggy.


Single-player wise I'm still dropping into the Spirit Board and World of Light (on New Game+ and hard difficulty - though the latter doesn't seem to have changed much, honestly) every so often, and doing a Classic mode run here or there, but mostly to gain gold to spend in the shop on unlocking music and Mii Costumes.

Well it may have to do with me being in Australia, and Australia has bad internet. Though some nights are butter smooth...others are choppy hell fests were I can't do anything.

Also there's a shop you can spend in game currency? Where is it?!

[tonberrian]

Well it may have to do with me being in Australia, and Australia has bad internet. Though some nights are butter smooth...others are choppy hell fests were I can't do anything.

Also there's a shop you can spend in game currency? Where is it?!

There's five, actually, and they're in the world of Light's first half. I don't recall where all of them are exactly, though. One of them's in the Donkey Kong area that's past the golden, light-filled gorge that's turned off once you beat the dungeon behind the three colored switch-doors, though that's like the last one, not the first. I think Beetle is somewhere on Marth's route off the first branching.

[Zevox]

Well it may have to do with me being in Australia, and Australia has bad internet. Though some nights are butter smooth...others are choppy hell fests were I can't do anything.

Also there's a shop you can spend in game currency? Where is it?!
Ah, yeah may likely be it, I suppose. Sorry. :smallfrown:

And yes, in the Vault, one of the options is a shop, which as far as I can tell is the only place in the game where gold is used. Some of the slots are locked at first, but the more gold you spend, the more of them open up. Stock is random and seems to refresh as you play, not with time - going to shop before turning the game off for the night then checking it the next morning won't give you anything new, but playing a couple of rounds in any mode will.


There's five, actually, and they're in the world of Light's first half. I don't recall where all of them are exactly, though. One of them's in the Donkey Kong area that's past the golden, light-filled gorge that's turned off once you beat the dungeon behind the three colored switch-doors, though that's like the last one, not the first. I think Beetle is somewhere on Marth's route off the first branching.
Not what I was referring to. Those are strictly for Spirits mode stuff, and while the Vault shop does have those too, it also contains music and Mii Costumes that I'm not sure whether or not you can get elsewhere (I've sometimes gotten a song and/or Mii Costume for beating Classic, but can't be sure they're pulling from the same pool).

[DaOldeWolf]

I am seeing some interest in the properties of each fighter. Here is a link (kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes) where you can see every single attribute and where exactly each char falls into. Enjoy everyone!

[tonberrian]

Oh, that's what you use gold on. Aside from lives in Classic mode. I'll have to check that out.

[danzibr]

I am seeing some interest in the properties of each fighter. Here is a link (kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes) where you can see every single attribute and where exactly each char falls into. Enjoy everyone!
Nice! Thanks :)

[Haven]

- Bayonetta. I am rusty as all get out with her, but she's still fun. Not well suited for most Spirit Battles though, she doesn't play nice with groups of enemies attacking her at once. And I think Witch Time just doesn't work in World of Light, it was lasting less time than it took for her dodge animation to finish the couple of times I tried.

That's just what happens if you try to use Witch Time when the target is undamaged or at a low percentage, or if you use it too often.

[Zevox]

Played Richter online tonight. I'd say I rather like him, but oh boy, are certain things about him frustrating.

His zoning and harassment tools are great, especially the cross and axe. Tossing an axe at someone trying to recover and killing them from the safety of the stage is a pretty sweet feeling. His tilts are also really good. The dtilt in particular stands out: very fast, good range, and the follow-up often catches people who block the first hit and think they can go for a punish - and even if they block the second hit, it travels far enough fast enough that you're often safe. It can even act as a sort of quick escape option, honestly. Ftilt has great range for a tilt, is pretty darn fast, and actually has killing potential at high damage with a tipper hit. (Oh yeah, I started to suspect that the Belmonts had a tipper effect like Marth's, and confirmed this in training mode. Pretty nice.) And while his utilt isn't as great as those, it is fairly good... and his only good up attack.

That's what's really feeling like his big weakness to me. I was worried about short hop fair/bair, but I find that ground game is good enough that I don't even want to go for that most of the time. Instead, it's the fact that his up smash and up air cover a tiny amount of space, leaving big gaps in his ability to deal with enemies that get above him but who are too close for him to chuck an axe at them. While utilt helps, it's not good enough to completely make up for his other up attacks sucking unless the opponent is literally directly overhead.

And as far as smash attacks go, his dsmash seems to be his go-to. It's definitely faster than his fsmash, but feels similarly powerful, and of course covers both sides. Fsmash is longer range (actually, amazing range, probably the longest of any fsmash in the game I'd wager), but it can be hard to land against opponents who don't underestimate its reach because of how slow it is. I almost like fishing for tipper ftilts better than trying to land fsmashes once I reach killing percents.

Another thing I noticed he struggles with is fast projectile spam. I had a Mario and a Pikachu who were willing to just spam fireballs and Thunder Jolts sometimes as opponents, and had a lot of trouble with that. When his cross clashes with another projectile it just comes right back to him, and he throws it slower than characters like those do, so you can't just keep doing it until the opponent stops spamming. The best response I was able to come up with was jumping over the projectiles and chucking an axe - tried the holy water too, but it turns out that if that gets hit by anything before it hits the ground, it's reflected like Dedede's Gordos and will become harmful to you, so that's not great.

Still, he's definitely fun despite the frustrating parts. I'm doubting he'll be my main, but he'll definitely be one I keep playing.


That's just what happens if you try to use Witch Time when the target is undamaged or at a low percentage, or if you use it too often.
:smallconfused: Seriously? I mean, I might get it for overuse, but at low damage the move is essentially useless now? Goddamn, they overnerfed the crap out of that.

[huttj509]

1. Unlocked all fighters. Huzzah.
2. Is there an easy way to refight the adventure mode bosses? That was fun, and I wanna retry with other fighters because...
3. If you're having trouble with a boss you keep hitting in the air, make sure you don't have equipped a spirit with the Land Style boosting ground attacks and reducing air attacks. Unfortunately I realized this when swapping fighters to try a different tactic so dunno how significant what changes were.

[tonberrian]

On SP: You can also sell your items, including cores. And they'll helpfully tell you which cores are needed for summoning, and which ones aren't. You'll want to keep a few generics because some summons need those, but you can safely sell off a bunch of cores you don't need.

[Zevox]

So, looks like we got our first balance patch, only a week after launch :smallconfused: . Weird. And while they listed which characters they changed in the public notes, they didn't list what the changes were. Kind of silly that.

They did change the matchmaking online in the patch too though, to put a greater emphasis on pairing you with people with similar rules - and it seems to be working, I got nothing but one-on-ones tonight, and when our rules varied it was typically only in number of stocks, amount of time, and my opponents seeming to prefer Battlefield or Final Destination to hazardless stages, all of which I'm fine with. So, cool, hopefully that issue's gone already.

Played a few different characters tonight: Dedede, Robin, and Falco.

I still like Dedede quite a bit, and he seems to possibly be my best character at the moment. Sadly though, that changed back air of his is really bothering me more and more. I thought it was faster than his old one at least, but now after trying to use it against real people I'm not so sure, and if it's not faster, it's frankly strictly worse than his old one. So that's kind of a bummer on an otherwise very fun character for me.

Robin I kind of go back and forth on. When I'm got things working with her, she's a lot of fun, but boy if things go south, it gets frustrating fast. Her Levin Sword moves and spells are great, but gods is she slower than I wish she were, and when you're stuck with the bronze sword, it's pretty awful. And it's kind of frustrating in general how her short reach and slow speed impact her ability to do much besides play pure defense. I liked her in 4 at first, but sort of drifted away from playing her as time went on because of things like that, and sadly it feels like Smash Ultimate hasn't given her much help.

Falco meanwhile I like a hell of a lot more than I did in Smash 4. The speed boost they gave him makes him feel much better, and I quite like landing u-tilt into nair combos and chasing people after. It's pretty nice to have a reflector too, particularly since people playing K. Rool and spamming his crown and canon seems to be a thing that's going around.

Also, uh, I hit the "Elite Smash" level online today, with Dedede. Somehow. Apparently the threshold for that is about 1.2 mil GSP... which is really low. You can get there in just a few games. Heck, I've got characters I've only played offline that are close to that amount, since they give you GSP for single-player activity. That seems like something of a flaw in that whole concept, I'd say. :smallconfused:


2. Is there an easy way to refight the adventure mode bosses? That was fun, and I wanna retry with other fighters because...
Not especially, sadly.
Replaying the final stage to get to the boss rush portion is probably the fastest way, assuming you didn't save over your first file with the New Game+ one. Otherwise, it's either find them in a new run of World of Light, or work your way through Classic Mode. Most characters seem to fight the Hands at the end of Classic Mode, but some get other bosses, like Marth fighting Rathalos, the Belmonts fighting Dracula, Mega Man and ROB fighting Galleom, or the Zelda characters fighting Ganon.

[tonberrian]

Oh god. Gold Mario gives Super Armor. It's three slots, and requires a bunch of spirits to combine, one of which is only available in shops, but it is SO WORTH IT.

[Zevox]

So, Mii outfits and music have stopped appearing in my shop, so I guess I got all of them - or at least, all that aren't locked behind the challenge board. And sadly, it seems like some of the old Mii outfits are missing, including a couple I particularly wanted to use, Proto Man and Knuckles. That's a pity. Actually, it feels weird that many of the outfits are of characters that are playable anyway - pretty sure the entire starting roster has outfits, plus Captain Falcon, and of course characters who weren't playable when the outfits were added but are now like Chrom and K. Rool.

Still, I've got a fair few Miis made that I'm happy with, including a version of Proto Man that more or less works, slapping a big pair of sunglesses on the Mii itself and then giving it a Captain Falcon helmet.

Something I'm confused by though - going by the spirits list, there should be Fighter Spirits for most of the alternate costume versions of fighters (i.e. female Robin and Corrin, Radiant Dawn Ike, the seven Koopalings, etc), but I'm not sure how you get those. I tried doing Classic a second time as Robin, but got no fighter spirit at all, just regular ones :smallconfused: . And google is proving useless, anything I try just comes up with a bunch of results about unlocking the characters, or more basic explanations of spirits as a whole. Anybody have any clue here?

Online play: I tried to play Bayonetta last night, and oh boy, did it not go well. Either I am completely awful with her at this point, or she got nerfed into the ground so hard it's not even funny. That's pretty disappointing. Tried out my FE swordsmen of choice (Marth, Chrom, Ike) plus a little Ness tonight, to much better results. I'm a bit surprised to say I might prefer Chrom and Ike to Marth despite liking him better than I have since I mained him in Melee, I seemed to struggle a bit more with him than them. Ness feels pretty solid for the most part, though he does seem to have trouble against sword-wielders, thanks to his short reach. I'm happy to see that his new up air still seems to be a pretty good kill move, I was worried that the change there might have been effectively a nerf.


Oh god. Gold Mario gives Super Armor. It's three slots, and requires a bunch of spirits to combine, one of which is only available in shops, but it is SO WORTH IT.
Here's one better, possibly: get Mega Man X, level him to 99, and evolve him. He becomes Full Armor X, which is a legendary primary spirit that gives you super armor. Only has one slot for a support spirit, but still.

[Rising Phoenix]

Would you like cheese with WOL experience? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMNVQWa9FA)

[huttj509]

Would you like cheese with WOL experience? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMNVQWa9FA)

Does taking a staff to the Pauline fight count as cheese? Because it was the only way I beat that one (Peach running away, Mario with a hammer, Giant DK, kill Peach, time limit).

Probably, but I'll take it.

[GloatingSwine]

Most fights have a spirit combo that makes them either easy or at least more manageable.

Like I know a lot of people struggle with Wily, but go in with Metal Slayer and a Franklin Badge and you can knock out the first 4-6 enemies.

(For Pauline I used Ryu and kited until my final smash was charged then shinkuu hadokened everyone off the edge, Peach's keep away AI makes her like edges).

[huttj509]

Most fights have a spirit combo that makes them either easy or at least more manageable.

Like I know a lot of people struggle with Wily, but go in with Metal Slayer and a Franklin Badge and you can knock out the first 4-6 enemies.

(For Pauline I used Ryu and kited until my final smash was charged then shinkuu hadokened everyone off the edge, Peach's keep away AI makes her like edges).

For Wily I used metal slayer and peach with fast FS charge. Full healed, fight reset!

[GloatingSwine]

For Wily I used metal slayer and peach with fast FS charge. Full healed, fight reset!

I used Metal Slayer, Franklin Badge on Bowser. Just stand there and neutral special and you'll burn down all their hitpoints as they impotently fling lemons at you.

Bowser is kinda my goto "enough playing around I am going to settle this" character. Though I've spent most of my actual time with Inkling who is super fun.

[Zevox]

For the Wily fight I had a lot of trouble initially, even with the Franklin Badge. I would get through maybe three of the four waves of Metal Mega Men, lose the badge, and then be pretty screwed. Then I tried switching to Lucas, and laughed at how easy it was: Psi Magnet absorbs the mega buster shots. And the AI loves to just keep firing those even when it's not working. I had free healing all the way to Doc, so it was really just a matter of beating him.

Don't remember what I did for Pauline, honestly. I remember it being frustrating, but not anything specific about how I beat it.

Anyway, tried a bunch more characters online the past couple of days, but the main thing I'm finding is that my feelings for them are largely unchanged from Smash 4. Nobody has been standing out as one I like a lot more or less than before since Bayonetta.

I did try a couple of new ones (well, one is just new to me since I didn't buy his DLC, but still), Ridley and Cloud. Ridley... doesn't feel great, sadly. For being one of the larger characters, he's strangely lacking reach, outside of on his down smash and bair. Makes him rather awkward for me. And for a winged character, his recovery's not great - he only gets one extra jump beyond most characters, and his up special not being able to be angled up-forward is an issue if you don't remember to turn him around on the last jump. Cloud on the flip side I quite liked, a lot of his stuff is pretty satisfying to pull off, and while I'm pretty sure he's been nerfed since 4 (that nair of his in particular sure used to seem a lot bigger when I was on the receiving end of it in that game), I get the impression he got away a lot better off than Bayonetta did. I could see him being higher up on my characters to use list, but probably not my main.

Speaking of, at this point, I think my list of prospective mains is Dedede, Palutena, Chrom, Ike, Corrin, and maybe Zero Suit Samus, but she's very much at the back of that pack. Still have more characters I want to try, but it feels like most of the characters I've played before are probably going to stay about the same in my esteem besides Falco (much better) and Bayonetta (much worse), so I guess I really mostly just need to try the remaining new characters that seemed like I'd like them. Which I think is just Inkling at this point. And I guess maybe the Miis, I didn't use them much in 4 since they weren't allowed in random online matches, but I doubt I'll like them that much.

[SuperPanda]

I am seeing some interest in the properties of each fighter. Here is a link (kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Attributes) where you can see every single attribute and where exactly each char falls into. Enjoy everyone!

Don’t have he game yet - but checked the lists out and laughed at two names on the weight ranking list:

“Educated Mario”
“Pit but edgy”

Hoping to join in on the smashing around the 25th or so.

[deuterio12]

Don’t have he game yet - but checked the lists out and laughed at two names on the weight ranking list:

“Educated Mario”

Joke is that Nintendo themselves said Mario doesn't actually have any medical degree so it's just him putting a lab coat to pretend he knows what he's doing.

[Zevox]

So, is anybody else actually trying to collect all of the spirits? I'm getting fairly close, surprisingly, only about 75 away, half of which are fighter spirits. Unfortunately a decent chunk of those are alternates that you seem to only be able to get from the shop, but no avoiding that. A decent few are summons I'm just waiting to get the ingredients for too.

Tried out Inkling online yesterday and the Miis today. I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying Inkling. There's a definite learning curve there, but there's something particularly satisfying about painting your opponent and then watching their damage skyrocket with every hit you get in while that lasts. Also, the grenades and roller are really dang good, as is their dash animation, which can confuse people about where you are and what you're doing in and of itself. I think she's going to replace ZSS on my prospective mains list, actually.

The Miis on the other hand are about what I expected - fun, but nothing I find all that special. I was probably enjoying Brawler the most. A particular highlight that I loved came when my Brawler based on Chie from Persona 4 faced a King K. Rool, and managed to somehow break the armor on one of his moves with her falcon punch firey kick neutral special. Turns out that leaves him stunned like a shield break does, so I got a free reverse firey kick for an easy kill afterwards. That felt great. :smallbiggrin:

And on another note, I think I'm done with trying to use No Hazards stages online. There's just too many stages that are still undesirable to play on even with hazards turned off, whether that be because of hazards that didn't get qualified as such in Nintendo's mind like the icey floor of the Summit, scrolling stages, or just stages whose design leads to opponents just sitting around waiting for you to approach because the terrain gives them a big advantage if they do that (Venom being a prime example). Battlefield it is for random online matches, sadly. I'll miss the stages that hazardless mode actually did make good, but they're sadly not worth the number that it doesn't. Maybe someday Nintendo will patch in the random stage select customizer for that mode, that would fix the issue.

[Forum Explorer]

And on another note, I think I'm done with trying to use No Hazards stages online. There's just too many stages that are still undesirable to play on even with hazards turned off, whether that be because of hazards that didn't get qualified as such in Nintendo's mind like the icey floor of the Summit, scrolling stages, or just stages whose design leads to opponents just sitting around waiting for you to approach because the terrain gives them a big advantage if they do that (Venom being a prime example). Battlefield it is for random online matches, sadly. I'll miss the stages that hazardless mode actually did make good, but they're sadly not worth the number that it doesn't. Maybe someday Nintendo will patch in the random stage select customizer for that mode, that would fix the issue.

Much like 'No Items' I never really understood this attitude. You miss out on so many stages by limiting yourself to just the maps with no dangers on them. Not only that, but most of the hazards can be avoided with a little bit of skill. I like them for changing how you have to play the game, and adding another level of difficulty to the level.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Does taking a staff to the Pauline fight count as cheese? Because it was the only way I beat that one (Peach running away, Mario with a hammer, Giant DK, kill Peach, time limit).

Probably, but I'll take it.

I cheesed the Zangief fight. It turns out the AI wants to stay in the ring and doesn't have the jump power to reach the scaffolding above said ring without bouncing off the ropes, which it will try to not do.
You are under not such restrictions, especially if you're using a jumpier character, like Zero Suit Samus.
For the Wily Fight, uh... I...
I think I just kicked and dodged a lot?

[WhismurWanders]

Much like 'No Items' I never really understood this attitude. You miss out on so many stages by limiting yourself to just the maps with no dangers on them. Not only that, but most of the hazards can be avoided with a little bit of skill. I like them for changing how you have to play the game, and adding another level of difficulty to the level.

Some hazards just feel too oppressive for the person who doesn't get them, but it's all personal taste in the end. Magicant had me incredibly frustrated when I failed to activate the Flying Man twice in a row when he spawned. Being forced into a sudden 2v1 felt bad to begin with, and him helping my opponent through 2 of my 3 stocks felt even worse. I'm sure there's some counterplay available, but our trio of players agreed that it felt like a bit much with a low number of players.

[Zevox]

Much like 'No Items' I never really understood this attitude. You miss out on so many stages by limiting yourself to just the maps with no dangers on them. Not only that, but most of the hazards can be avoided with a little bit of skill. I like them for changing how you have to play the game, and adding another level of difficulty to the level.
Shouldn't be too hard to understand: the short and simple version is that I actively want to "miss out" on anything that makes the game less fun to play for me.

If I'm playing online, what I'm looking for is one-on-ones that are contests of skill between me and my opponent. That's both the way I feel the game works best when I'm playing with random people I don't know and generally what I like best about playing fighting games. For that, the stages should serve as just a fairly neutral space for the fight to occur - if they become another obstacle to be overcome, that's bad. That's what I have an opponent for, I don't want the stage doing that. (I also dislike the stage interactables that NetherRealm puts in the Injustice and Mortal Kombat games for similar reasons.) Pure random nonsense outside of either player's ability to control or predict like items is even worse.

Now, there's plenty of stages that fit that besides just Final Destination and Battlefield - even beyond the other tournament-approved neutrals, I'm fine with plenty of others. My favorite stage in the series is Delphino Plaza, for example, and I'm a big fan of the other similar stages that basically tour you around an area but don't have any crazy hazards to them. And with the ability to turn off hazards there are now even more I can enjoy - for instance, I've never liked the Metroid stages in past games, aside from rarely Frigate Orpheon, but with hazards off in Ultimate they all become perfectly good I'd say (with the possible exception of Brinstar Depths, that one's still a bit iffy, but still far better than normal). But unfortunately, I'm finding that's not worth the frustration of dealing with the stages that aren't fixed by turning off hazards. If I could customize the pool of stages it was drawing from like I can offline, that'd be great and I'd absolutely use it, but as-is, I think I'll sadly have to stick to Battlefield.

[Forum Explorer]

Shouldn't be too hard to understand: the short and simple version is that I actively want to "miss out" on anything that makes the game less fun to play for me.

If I'm playing online, what I'm looking for is one-on-ones that are contests of skill between me and my opponent. That's both the way I feel the game works best when I'm playing with random people I don't know and generally what I like best about playing fighting games. For that, the stages should serve as just a fairly neutral space for the fight to occur - if they become another obstacle to be overcome, that's bad. That's what I have an opponent for, I don't want the stage doing that. (I also dislike the stage interactables that NetherRealm puts in the Injustice and Mortal Kombat games for similar reasons.) Pure random nonsense outside of either player's ability to control or predict like items is even worse.

Now, there's plenty of stages that fit that besides just Final Destination and Battlefield - even beyond the other tournament-approved neutrals, I'm fine with plenty of others. My favorite stage in the series is Delphino Plaza, for example, and I'm a big fan of the other similar stages that basically tour you around an area but don't have any crazy hazards to them. And with the ability to turn off hazards there are now even more I can enjoy - for instance, I've never liked the Metroid stages in past games, aside from rarely Frigate Orpheon, but with hazards off in Ultimate they all become perfectly good I'd say (with the possible exception of Brinstar Depths, that one's still a bit iffy, but still far better than normal). But unfortunately, I'm finding that's not worth the frustration of dealing with the stages that aren't fixed by turning off hazards. If I could customize the pool of stages it was drawing from like I can offline, that'd be great and I'd absolutely use it, but as-is, I think I'll sadly have to stick to Battlefield.

I get that I guess. I can understand a desire for less complexity even if I have the opposite.

I suppose what I don't understand is the implication that it's 'fairer' or 'more skilled' when there aren't any obstacles. To use your words, it's still neutral ground. It's not like the hazards are any friendlier to your opponent after all.

Items are the same to a lesser extent. You can both use the items, and you can both get to them. And nearly every item can be overcome with sufficient skill. The big exceptions are Pokemon and Assist Trophies. Those two categories are completely random on what you get, and range from almost guaranteeing you a kill to being completely useless.

[Qwertystop]

I get that I guess. I can understand a desire for less complexity even if I have the opposite.

I suppose what I don't understand is the implication that it's 'fairer' or 'more skilled' when there aren't any obstacles. To use your words, it's still neutral ground. It's not like the hazards are any friendlier to your opponent after all.

Items are the same to a lesser extent. You can both use the items, and you can both get to them. And nearly every item can be overcome with sufficient skill. The big exceptions are Pokemon and Assist Trophies. Those two categories are completely random on what you get, and range from almost guaranteeing you a kill to being completely useless.

Items in general are random, not just the ones with an effect that picks randomly from a list. Who do they appear closer to? Just because your can use skill to dodge doesn't mean it wasn't luck that made you need to do so.

And stage hazards, even on the stages that give plenty of warning before they become dangerous, are still a major swing in the match based on the luck of who happens to be in the danger zone when they turn up. It's not (usually) something you can reasonably plan around. Note that in Melee, Poke Floats was competitively legal for a while - because it's completely scripted, on a fixed timer, so dumb luck don't come into the picture.

[Zevox]

I get that I guess. I can understand a desire for less complexity even if I have the opposite.

I suppose what I don't understand is the implication that it's 'fairer' or 'more skilled' when there aren't any obstacles. To use your words, it's still neutral ground. It's not like the hazards are any friendlier to your opponent after all.

Items are the same to a lesser extent. You can both use the items, and you can both get to them. And nearly every item can be overcome with sufficient skill. The big exceptions are Pokemon and Assist Trophies. Those two categories are completely random on what you get, and range from almost guaranteeing you a kill to being completely useless.
Qwertystop covers the important points well. Items are truly and completely random by nature: where and when they spawn and what spawns is all up to RNG, and in and of itself can swing the battle with how potent many of them are (Pokéballs and Assist Trophies are probably the biggest and most obvious offenders, but don't discount the others, there's plenty that can be very lethal and difficult to avoid if played right by the one who gets them). That completely undermines the match being a competition between two players and adds a significant luck element to the fight.

And in addition to what Qwertystop said about them, hazards also move things away from being a competition between just the players by their nature, since they will warp the fight around them. An obviously overpowered one being what Whismur mentioned earlier: the Flying Man on Magicant. Any player claiming him as their ally is instantly at a massive advantage, so fights there with hazards on would devolve into the players fighting for control of the platform he spawn until he does and one of them claims him, then return to that if the first one gets killed before someone wins. And whoever happens to be the one that's holding that platform when he spawns becomes the likely winner immediately. (Incidentally, that's another stage that becomes pretty good with hazards turned off I'd say. Blast zones are probably too close to the stage on either side for tournament play, but I'm fine with it for casual play.)

But even looking at more conventional stage hazards, just consider one that I've complained about not being turned off with the hazards off option: the icy floor of The Summit. Yes, that impacts both players, but it still makes the fight as much about dealing with that hazard in one way or another as it is about fighting the opponent, since it's constantly there, impacting your ability to move normally on possibly the most important part of the stage. And it will favor certain characters heavily - projectile spammers will love it for making them harder to approach except by going all the way up and around the center part of the mountain, forcing the opponent to approach them from above, which is almost always a big disadvantage in Smash because up attacks tend to be quite good and aerials are rarely able to contest them when used from that angle. Good luck dealing with a Link, Samus, or Snake who knows how to take advantage of that on that stage if you're not playing someone with a good reflector.

Heck, that can be an issue on some stages even without hazards just due to their layout. It's the reason why hazards off mode doesn't help Venom, for instance. I've played against people who would just sit on one of the lower wings of the Great Fox on that stage, waiting for you to approach, because it's advantageous to make you approach them from above. Unless you're playing one of the select few characters with projectiles that could go around the Great Fox to get at them (only Ness and Snake come to mind - maybe Lucas, but I think his PK Thunder is too slow), this gives you only two options: do the same thing, in which case if neither of you crack you'll sit there for however long the timer is set for (usually 5-7 minutes in online play is common) and go to sudden death if your stocks are tied, which is boring as all hell, or go after them, in which case you're at a substantial disadvantage and more likely to lose because of it. That's just a total fun-killer of a stage, no hazards required.

[danzibr]

Count me with the crowd that favors no items in competitive play.

Stage though... I personally prefer Battlefield to Final Destination. Dose platforms.

[Rodin]

I've been finding more and more that I detest Battlefield, just as much if not moreso than Final Destination. This is because everybody practices that stage, so they know exactly where to stand to punish people coming back from off-stage, they know precisely how to move through the platforms for maximum efficiency, etc. The new system of "you don't always get what stages you want" has been very enlightening to me on this front, as a lot of the time I'll play somebody on Battlefield, get annihilated, and then with the same characters change stage to a random non-Battlefield stage and my opponent suddenly doesn't know how to fight. The different stages have different strategies, and being able adapt to that is its own skill.

I'm just regretful that I can't ban Battlefield along with Final Destination so that I get it less. I'd be fine with it showing up every so often when the game is having difficulty matching me, but since I can't ban it and most non-item 1v1 players are only playing it I wind up on Battlefield around 75-80% of the time. This is very dull. Unfortunately, the only way to prevent that is to turn items on, as most players who set Battlefield only understandably don't want items. Problem is, I don't want items - I want the stages. Oh, and there also isn't an option to turn down the item rate, so I can play with items being a periodic battlefield change rather than the massive rain of items that is the default these days.

Why is Nintendo so crap at designing online play? This shouldn't be a problem in 20-freaking-18. Especially with a "matchmake in the background" mode that should allow it to spend all the time it needs to find me a match to my exact specifications while I'm grinding Spirits.

[Zevox]

Well, I'm about done with the single-player content of the game. Today I finished collecting all of the non-Fighter Spirits, and finished up Classic with the last characters I hadn't done it with yet. The only Spirits I have left to collect are seven alt-costume Fighter Spirits: three Koopalings, Wooly Yoshi, Classic Wario, Female Villager, and Mii Gunner. (Okay, granted Gunner isn't an alt costume, but for some reason you can't do Classic with the Miis, so you have to get their Fighter Spirits from the shop like alt costume ones.) Just a matter of checking the shop for those until I get them.

I'm also down to just a half-dozen challenge panels to finish - four on Smash Mode's board, two on online. The two on online are a forgone conclusion, just a matter of playing more. Smash Mode... eh, not sure if I'll do the ones involving fighting level 9 computers, honestly. Those won't roll over as easily as the ones that require lower-level ones, and won't be any fun, and I can't use hammers to get them for free. Might need to look up whether their rewards are worth it.


Why is Nintendo so crap at designing online play?
A question we have been asking with no answer for a decade now.

Though to be fair, there is a certain degree of challenge here that isn't present in most other online games, with just how many little rules variations there can be to Smash. It's understandable that trying to pair everyone with someone with the exact same rules preferences might get dicey, and after that first patch the biggest element - whether you want a 1-on-1, 2-on-2, or free-for-all - seems to be matched very consistently. It would be nice if stage preferences were too, but honestly, I'm fairly content with the current situation. It could be better, but it's much better than Smash 4's For Fun and For Glory dichotomy. And you always have Arenas/Lobbies as an alternative where you have more precise control over the rules, too - I am so glad that they no longer restrict those to people on your friends list only.

[Forum Explorer]

Qwertystop covers the important points well. Items are truly and completely random by nature: where and when they spawn and what spawns is all up to RNG, and in and of itself can swing the battle with how potent many of them are (Pokéballs and Assist Trophies are probably the biggest and most obvious offenders, but don't discount the others, there's plenty that can be very lethal and difficult to avoid if played right by the one who gets them). That completely undermines the match being a competition between two players and adds a significant luck element to the fight.

And in addition to what Qwertystop said about them, hazards also move things away from being a competition between just the players by their nature, since they will warp the fight around them. An obviously overpowered one being what Whismur mentioned earlier: the Flying Man on Magicant. Any player claiming him as their ally is instantly at a massive advantage, so fights there with hazards on would devolve into the players fighting for control of the platform he spawn until he does and one of them claims him, then return to that if the first one gets killed before someone wins. And whoever happens to be the one that's holding that platform when he spawns becomes the likely winner immediately. (Incidentally, that's another stage that becomes pretty good with hazards turned off I'd say. Blast zones are probably too close to the stage on either side for tournament play, but I'm fine with it for casual play.)

But even looking at more conventional stage hazards, just consider one that I've complained about not being turned off with the hazards off option: the icy floor of The Summit. Yes, that impacts both players, but it still makes the fight as much about dealing with that hazard in one way or another as it is about fighting the opponent, since it's constantly there, impacting your ability to move normally on possibly the most important part of the stage. And it will favor certain characters heavily - projectile spammers will love it for making them harder to approach except by going all the way up and around the center part of the mountain, forcing the opponent to approach them from above, which is almost always a big disadvantage in Smash because up attacks tend to be quite good and aerials are rarely able to contest them when used from that angle. Good luck dealing with a Link, Samus, or Snake who knows how to take advantage of that on that stage if you're not playing someone with a good reflector.

Heck, that can be an issue on some stages even without hazards just due to their layout. It's the reason why hazards off mode doesn't help Venom, for instance. I've played against people who would just sit on one of the lower wings of the Great Fox on that stage, waiting for you to approach, because it's advantageous to make you approach them from above. Unless you're playing one of the select few characters with projectiles that could go around the Great Fox to get at them (only Ness and Snake come to mind - maybe Lucas, but I think his PK Thunder is too slow), this gives you only two options: do the same thing, in which case if neither of you crack you'll sit there for however long the timer is set for (usually 5-7 minutes in online play is common) and go to sudden death if your stocks are tied, which is boring as all hell, or go after them, in which case you're at a substantial disadvantage and more likely to lose because of it. That's just a total fun-killer of a stage, no hazards required.

For both you and Querty:

Items are random, though often getting them is not if that makes sense. I mean, often getting the item can hold a bit of risk to it and leave me open to a blow. Now some items (like Baseball bats or Hearts) are always worth it. Other items, eh, not so much. Thing is though, it is fully random. But that random is fair. And that random rarely resolves the battle. More importantly though it breaks trap stuff like your Great Fox example. I'll admit, I certainly remember the times that a bomb-om spawned on top of me, exploded and ended my last life. But those are the exception not the rule. You can certainly adapt your playstyle to items, and I find it more impressive to be able to win consistently when random stuff goes against you then just a straight 1v1 match up.

As for hazards, sorry but I don't buy most of what you are saying. Stuff like the monster Ridley that you can take over? Yeah, those stages do often devolve into 'who can take over the monster?' though even then skill matters more then you think. It's just the nature of the game has changed. Other more constant hazards though like the Summit? Adapt to it. It's not insurmountable. Even against projectile spammers. Same with things like Brinstar or Captain Falcon's level (The name escapes me at the moment). You can learn when the hazard will appear, where it will appear and take that into consideration. You can learn how to dodge it or even push your opponent into it. None of the hazards are truly random. They have set zones, timing, patterns, ect. You can use them.

[Zevox]

Items are random, though often getting them is not if that makes sense. I mean, often getting the item can hold a bit of risk to it and leave me open to a blow. Now some items (like Baseball bats or Hearts) are always worth it. Other items, eh, not so much. Thing is though, it is fully random. But that random is fair. And that random rarely resolves the battle. More importantly though it breaks trap stuff like your Great Fox example. I'll admit, I certainly remember the times that a bomb-om spawned on top of me, exploded and ended my last life. But those are the exception not the rule. You can certainly adapt your playstyle to items, and I find it more impressive to be able to win consistently when random stuff goes against you then just a straight 1v1 match up.
You may see the randomness as "fair," but that's beside the point. It's a luck element that's unwanted and unnecessary, and detracts from the competition between players by the very fact that it is a luck element. The simple fact that things like an explosive spawning where you're making an attack and killing you is possible is precisely the sort of thing that makes competitive players reject them entirely - that type of thing is completely unacceptable as even a small possibility for that kind of play. This is a fighting game, not something like a card game where a significant luck element is normal and expected by players who take it seriously. The closest thing to a luck element in a fighting game, barring very rare character-specific mechanics in some cases, is when you take a gamble on whether your read of what the opponent will do next is correct by committing to something that will counter that but leave you open if you're wrong, such a reversal in other fighting games or a counter move in Smash - and the better you are, the less "luck" is usually involved in that.


As for hazards, [...] It's just the nature of the game has changed.
And that is precisely the problem, and why those things get turned off by players who want the nature of the game to be a pure contest of skill between two people using two characters. The basic desire is that nothing else but the players and characters matter - stages should have minimal impact on the fight at most, just like in more traditional fighting games where the stage is nothing but a background, and the only feature that impacts the fight at all is the existence of corners. That's why so many stages are outright banned in actual Smash tournament play for things like walk-off edges or blast zones being too close to the stage, even if they don't have actual damage-dealing hazards, and the ones that see by far the most play are the ones that are deemed the most "Neutral," such as Battlefield or Fountain of Dreams. That's further than I'd go for casual play myself, since I'm not a tournament player, but a good example of the sort of mindset behind the kind of play I enjoy.


Other more constant hazards though like the Summit? Adapt to it. It's not insurmountable. Even against projectile spammers.
Depending on the characters involved and assuming the projectile player was actually skilled, it very likely would be, actually. Without a reflector, there's genuinely no good answer there. Moving forward and blocking will take so long that your shield will likely break along the way due to how little distance you move initially on the icy ground (unless their only projectile is slow to fire or something), rolling will most likely just get you hit if the opponent knows what they're doing, jumping doesn't work because the lower area is basically a low-ceiling tunnel, and going around from above hands the opponent a significant advantage - as well as the opportunity to just run to the other side while you're doing so, resetting the situation if they desire. I'd fully expect the numbers on that stage to skew heavily in favor of characters like Link or Samus against anyone who lacks a reflector or strong projectile game of their own.

[tonberrian]

Well, I'm about done with the single-player content of the game. Today I finished collecting all of the non-Fighter Spirits, and finished up Classic with the last characters I hadn't done it with yet. The only Spirits I have left to collect are seven alt-costume Fighter Spirits: three Koopalings, Wooly Yoshi, Classic Wario, Female Villager, and Mii Gunner. (Okay, granted Gunner isn't an alt costume, but for some reason you can't do Classic with the Miis, so you have to get their Fighter Spirits from the shop like alt costume ones.) Just a matter of checking the shop for those until I get them.

I'm also down to just a half-dozen challenge panels to finish - four on Smash Mode's board, two on online. The two on online are a forgone conclusion, just a matter of playing more. Smash Mode... eh, not sure if I'll do the ones involving fighting level 9 computers, honestly. Those won't roll over as easily as the ones that require lower-level ones, and won't be any fun, and I can't use hammers to get them for free. Might need to look up whether their rewards are worth it.

I don't suppose you remember which spirits were behind what challenge panels. I'd love to finish off my non-fighter spirit collection, but I gotta focus on panels I can actually accomplish and use the hammers for the rest.

[Zevox]

I don't suppose you remember which spirits were behind what challenge panels. I'd love to finish off my non-fighter spirit collection, but I gotta focus on panels I can actually accomplish and use the hammers for the rest.
Off the top of my head no, but there's an FAQ (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/switch/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/faqs/76708/challenges) on GameFAQs that has a full list. Most of them are pretty easy, honestly. Note that not all of the Spirits there are exclusive to those challenges though - all of the Fighter Spirits can be obtained from the shop, and I believe some of the others appear on the Spirit Board too. I know that the ones from Smash mode that aren't Fighter Spirits are definitely exclusives though, those were the last half-dozen or so non-Fighter Spirits I had to collect.

Finished up getting those last few Fighter Spirits from the shop today, so full collection for me :smallbiggrin: . Also down to just two challenges. One is to play 200 quickplay matches online, so that's just a matter of time. The other is to play against 3 level 9 CPUs and get at least three kills from meteor smashes... yeah, that one I might just leave, since it can't be hammered. Tried a couple of times with super sudden death and 99 stocks, which I saw recommended elsewhere, but even when I thought I'd done it, it's not counting for some reason.

Still trying to narrow my choice of a main down. I'm thinking I'll just say no to Dedede because he was my main last time and I want to pick someone new (plus that new back air...), and I think I'll take Inkling off the list too since I don't feel like she's gelling with me as much as others. Leaving Palutena, Chrom, Ike, and Corrin. And I'm thinking Ike may be my top pick out of the swordsmen, but still having a hard time deciding...

[deuterio12]

You know, I just realized something.

In world of light the big bad captures the main fighter's spirits to mass-produce "evil" clones.

But Kirby escaped from the universal rebuilding.

Yet there's multiple "evil" Kirby clones around the world of light.

What gives? Is the Kirby we're playing a fake one and the true Kirby is sealed somewhere hidden? Did Kirby spontaneously split when running away? Was there more than one Kirby all along? Something pink eldritch abomination is beyond our puny concempts of space and time something?

[Resileaf]

You know, I just realized something.

In world of light the big bad captures the main fighter's spirits to mass-produce "evil" clones.

But Kirby escaped from the universal rebuilding.

Yet there's multiple "evil" Kirby clones around the world of light.

What gives? Is the Kirby we're playing a fake one and the true Kirby is sealed somewhere hidden? Did Kirby spontaneously split when running away? Was there more than one Kirby all along? Something pink eldritch abomination is beyond our puny concempts of space and time something?

Meta Knight removed his mask.

[GloatingSwine]

There are other beings like Kirby in several of his games.

They're the ones that were captured with all the spirits.

[tonberrian]

Grr. I missed one of the spirit board events, and now that I've collected EVERY OTHER spirit, I'm still missing two because I didn't think they'd make some only available as events. Lesson learned, I guess.

[Zevox]

Grr. I missed one of the spirit board events, and now that I've collected EVERY OTHER spirit, I'm still missing two because I didn't think they'd make some only available as events. Lesson learned, I guess.
If you're missing two, it's probably not from an event - the only event-exclusive spirits so far were a set of 3. They released two that are currently only available if you have the new Pokémon games on the same Switch as Smash though (the "Let's Go!" games). I saw mention in the news entry about them that they'll be made available to everyone later on sometime, but for now, you only get them if you get those games.

[tonberrian]

If you're missing two, it's probably not from an event - the only event-exclusive spirits so far were a set of 3. They released two that are currently only available if you have the new Pokémon games on the same Switch as Smash though (the "Let's Go!" games). I saw mention in the news entry about them that they'll be made available to everyone later on sometime, but for now, you only get them if you get those games.

Ah, well then. I am slightly less upset. SLIGHTLY. Because I don't plan on picking up Let's Go for myself.

I wonder what the age is recommended on those, though. I do know a pokemon go obsessed 5 year old...

[Zevox]

Huh. So, I reached a new achievement today: got into Elite Smash with a second character. Thing is, it's Cloud. Who is not one of my mains, but one of my also-playeds. I was just playing around with him to warm up before going in with Ike, and bam, made it. And unlike King Dedede, who was my main in 4 and I do think I could still be genuinely better with than other characters in this game just due to all the time I put in with him there (and the fact that not a ton has changed for him in this game), Cloud is someone I didn't play at all until this game, and I don't think for a second that I'm better with him than with my new mains (Ike and Chrom).

Weirdly enough, he seemed to just gain GSP faster than I do with them, getting 50-100k per win at ranks where they're getting 25-40k per win (and it doesn't seem to be based on the ranking of the opponent, either). So, it feels like there may be something going on with the ranking system that makes it harder to reach higher ranks with some characters than others. But I don't think the characters all have separate ranked ladders - if that were the case I'd expect the threshold for reaching Elite Smash to be different based on how many people play the character, but it appears to be the same for Cloud and Dedede, who I'd say are rather wildly different in how many people I see playing them.

So, yeah, I'm left pretty confused as to how the whole GSP ranking system is working here :smallconfused: .

[chainer1216]

Im new to smash but it really feels like Cloud is "easy mode" his moves and specials are all so...forgiving and his hit boxes are huge and hes fast.

[Zevox]

Im new to smash but it really feels like Cloud is "easy mode" his moves and specials are all so...forgiving and his hit boxes are huge and hes fast.
Eh, I don't doubt that Cloud's good (albeit nerfed compared to how he was in Smash 4), but "easy mode" seems like an exaggeration to me.

In any case though, it's less about the characters specifically and more about the weird progression, with Cloud just gaining more ranks per win than Ike or Chrom, which doesn't make sense to me no matter how I try to look at it.

[tyckspoon]

Eh, I don't doubt that Cloud's good (albeit nerfed compared to how he was in Smash 4), but "easy mode" seems like an exaggeration to me.

In any case though, it's less about the characters specifically and more about the weird progression, with Cloud just gaining more ranks per win than Ike or Chrom, which doesn't make sense to me no matter how I try to look at it.

Are there character usage rates/popularity statistics available? Could be averaged against number of players using that character - if Cloud is less commonly used than Ike or Chrom, than a winning Cloud could be weighted higher. If there are relatively few matches involving Cloud it wouldn't take much of a win streak to make you appear to be better than the average Cloud and get moved up the matchmaking ranks.

[Zevox]

Are there character usage rates/popularity statistics available? Could be averaged against number of players using that character - if Cloud is less commonly used than Ike or Chrom, than a winning Cloud could be weighted higher. If there are relatively few matches involving Cloud it wouldn't take much of a win streak to make you appear to be better than the average Cloud and get moved up the matchmaking ranks.
Specific statistics, not to my knowledge. Based on my experience I would wager that Cloud is less used online than Ike and Chrom, but not by a lot. While Ike and Chrom are up there among the most commonly played in my experience (alongside K. Rool, Inkling, Link, Snake, and Marth/Lucina), Cloud's moderately popular, certainly a far cry from the genuinely rarely seen characters like the Ice Climbers.

Edit: Wow. Maybe it was the guy I was up against, but geez does the Mega Man vs Ganondorf matchup feel one-sided in the former's favor. With Leaf Shield now buffed to be a legitimate projectile and the general system changes making Mega Man less vulnerable on many of his moves than before, I was just walking all over Ganondorf, and I would never say I'm a particularly good Mega Man. About the only answer Ganon had to the Blue Bomber's projectiles is Warlock Kick, which blows through most of them - but that's so punishable that he can't afford to use it too often or he'll just die anyway.

Mega Man does feel better to play in Ultimate than in 4 generally though. Might use him more often now.

[oxybe]

i think i'm done with Smash online play.

the lag is tolerable most of the time. I've seen it grind to a halt but it's usually ok. I don't mind a free for all or team game. but the worst is being forced to play rulesets i have only hate and spite towards.

Outside of casual couch games, items can go [oh my!] right off.

and that's like 4/5ths of the games i'm tossed into.

a 4man FFA with items and stage hazards on an annoying stage and something like 1stock and 300HP is not my idea of a good time.

I wouldn't mind sitting in lab a bit longer until it gives me a nice 3 stock, 7min, no items, battlefield only game. you can even FFA it and have 4 players or do a team game...

I'm just tired of these game types i have no love for, and having to suffer 4-5 of them before I get the one I like is really cramping my fun, esp since there doesn't seem to be any tournaments in my area and due to my work schedule it makes it so i usually only get to play really late at night or early mornings.

[Dienekes]

Edit: Wow. Maybe it was the guy I was up against, but geez does the Mega Man vs Ganondorf matchup feel one-sided in the former's favor. With Leaf Shield now buffed to be a legitimate projectile and the general system changes making Mega Man less vulnerable on many of his moves than before, I was just walking all over Ganondorf, and I would never say I'm a particularly good Mega Man. About the only answer Ganon had to the Blue Bomber's projectiles is Warlock Kick, which blows through most of them - but that's so punishable that he can't afford to use it too often or he'll just die anyway.

Mega Man does feel better to play in Ultimate than in 4 generally though. Might use him more often now.

As a Ganon main, yeah this one feels tough. He is so much better in ult now that he actually has the speed to at least try to fight. But any projectile based opponent can stop me in my tracks if they’re good. He does have a few answers to projectiles, but nothing great.

Though MM isn’t as bad as Snake in that regard. I’m not sure if the grenades technically count as projectiles (I think they do), but man when every part of the map is blowing up and the opponent has decent hand to hand range moves as well it’s a real pain.

[Zevox]

i think i'm done with Smash online play.

the lag is tolerable most of the time. I've seen it grind to a halt but it's usually ok. I don't mind a free for all or team game. but the worst is being forced to play rulesets i have only hate and spite towards.

Outside of casual couch games, items can go [oh my!] right off.

and that's like 4/5ths of the games i'm tossed into.
:smallconfused: Really? Huh, that's odd. Ever since the patch that dropped one week after launch that said it had increased the matchmaking's focus on pairing people with similar rules I've almost never gotten rulesets that weren't 1-on-1, no items, Omega or Battlefield, and 2-3 stock, and I've been playing pretty much daily. I'm pretty sure I could count on one hand the number of times since then that I've seen someone who had items on, and even then half the time it was smash balls only, and I legitimately don't think I've been forced into a FFA or 2v2 since the patch at all. Very surprised to hear that patch didn't fix that problem for everyone.

Maybe go into arenas instead? Easy to find those with such rules. I know I wish I could get into smaller ones more often, but if you've got the time to wait a few minutes for your first opponents to show up you can always start a 3-4 person arena yourself, so you're not waiting too many matches in between turns if you lose.


As a Ganon main, yeah this one feels tough. He is so much better in ult now that he actually has the speed to at least try to fight. But any projectile based opponent can stop me in my tracks if they’re good. He does have a few answers to projectiles, but nothing great.

Though MM isn’t as bad as Snake in that regard. I’m not sure if the grenades technically count as projectiles (I think they do), but man when every part of the map is blowing up and the opponent has decent hand to hand range moves as well it’s a real pain.
Yeah, the grenades do count as projectiles - not that that often matters, since he's mostly just dropping them on the ground somewhere to control space. He's just a painful matchup no matter who you are I feel like, as there's no obvious counters to those grenades, nothing at all that you can do about his C4 besides try to avoid it, the Nikita is just nuts at edgeguarding anyone without a good reflector, and many of his normals are fantastic. He doesn't even need his smash attacks either, f-tilt and u-tilt kill as well as most characters' smash attacks. And with his option to recover super high with that up special of his it's almost impossible to edgeguard him, plus he's a heavyweight who's hard to kill outright. Dude's probably one of the top characters in the game I'd wager.

[danzibr]

I suddenly want to get better with MM and Snake (current mains: Ike and Ganondorf).

[deuterio12]

I know that Kirby's at the bottom of the ultimate tier list, but somehow he seems to be my MPV in spirit collecting, succeeding where all others fail.

In particular, the AI seems... Afraid of him.:smalleek:

I particularly remember a battle against the big boss spirit where the spirit literally threw themselves off-stage just by Kirby spamming up B. And now a battle against an Infernroar had a similar end where they were returning to stage only to down-b as Kirby was charging up a smash.

[Zevox]

I suddenly want to get better with MM and Snake (current mains: Ike and Ganondorf).
If those characters appeal to you, go for it. I wouldn't go jumping ship to other characters that don't appeal to you just because they might be stronger competitively or (more likely in MM's case case) have a good matchup against yours though. I mean, Ike's one of my mains too, and boy does he struggle against Link in my experience, but I just don't like playing Link. And as good as Snake seems to be, he doesn't feel like he's for me either.

Speaking of character choice though, a surprising thing I noticed while skimming my records last night: I've actually played exactly 30 different characters in Quickplay online. I actually hammered the panel for that challenge since I had a bunch of hammers left as I was running out of challenges and didn't feel like waiting on that, so I didn't know when I'd hit it, but I have. Kind of crazy to think about, there's no other fighting game out there where I play nearly this many, even as a percentage of the overall roster rather than in absolute numbers terms.

Mains: Ike & Chrom
Secondaries: King Dedede, Palutena, Corrin.
(My) Top 10: Inkling, Falco, Marth & Lucina, Ness.
Also Played: Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Richter, R.O.B, Toon Link, Mega Man, Sonic, Cloud, Ridley, Zero Suit Samus.
Rarely Played: Pit, Mii Gunner, Pac-Man, Shulk, Bayonetta, Robin, Wolf, Lucario, Lucas, Mewtwo.

Also, I've played a little Pokèmon Trainer (mostly using Squirtle) in Arenas, but haven't taken him into Quickplay yet. And in past games I've played some Mario, Meta Knight, and Captain Falcon, and just haven't really ever picked them in this one so far, since I like so many others more than them.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I know that Kirby's at the bottom of the ultimate tier list, but somehow he seems to be my MPV in spirit collecting, succeeding where all others fail.

In particular, the AI seems... Afraid of him.:smalleek:

I particularly remember a battle against the big boss spirit where the spirit literally threw themselves off-stage just by Kirby spamming up B. And now a battle against an Infernroar had a similar end where they were returning to stage only to down-b as Kirby was charging up a smash.
As they rightly should, for he is Kirby, Destroyer of Worlds.

[WhismurWanders]

In particular, the AI seems... Afraid of him.:smalleek:

I particularly remember a battle against the big boss spirit where the spirit literally threw themselves off-stage just by Kirby spamming up B. And now a battle against an Infernroar had a similar end where they were returning to stage only to down-b as Kirby was charging up a smash.

The AI does weird stuff sometimes. I recall The Boss also being a relatively easy fight because the bot did something very silly.

[GloatingSwine]

I know that Kirby's at the bottom of the ultimate tier list, but somehow he seems to be my MPV in spirit collecting, succeeding where all others fail.


What works in spirit battle isn't necessarily what works in competitive.

Little Mac is fantastic in spirit battles because the AI doesn't know how bad he is off stage so it just comes and tries to manfight him. Which is a bad plan.

[danzibr]

If those characters appeal to you, go for it. I wouldn't go jumping ship to other characters that don't appeal to you just because they might be stronger competitively or (more likely in MM's case case) have a good matchup against yours though. I mean, Ike's one of my mains too, and boy does he struggle against Link in my experience, but I just don't like playing Link. And as good as Snake seems to be, he doesn't feel like he's for me either.

Speaking of character choice though, a surprising thing I noticed while skimming my records last night: I've actually played exactly 30 different characters in Quickplay online. I actually hammered the panel for that challenge since I had a bunch of hammers left as I was running out of challenges and didn't feel like waiting on that, so I didn't know when I'd hit it, but I have. Kind of crazy to think about, there's no other fighting game out there where I play nearly this many, even as a percentage of the overall roster rather than in absolute numbers terms.

Mains: Ike & Chrom
Secondaries: King Dedede, Palutena, Corrin.
(My) Top 10: Inkling, Falco, Marth & Lucina, Ness.
Also Played: Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, Richter, R.O.B, Toon Link, Mega Man, Sonic, Cloud, Ridley, Zero Suit Samus.
Rarely Played: Pit, Mii Gunner, Pac-Man, Shulk, Bayonetta, Robin, Wolf, Lucario, Lucas, Mewtwo.

Also, I've played a little Pokèmon Trainer (mostly using Squirtle) in Arenas, but haven't taken him into Quickplay yet. And in past games I've played some Mario, Meta Knight, and Captain Falcon, and just haven't really ever picked them in this one so far, since I like so many others more than them.
Oh the matchup thing isn’t my reason. I actually wanted to get good with Snake when I first saw him in Brawl, and MM when I saw him in 4. Then I played both of them a bit... and went back to my mains. But now, remotivated to play them.

I felt that way about a few others. Potential new mains that I just dabbled with. Sonic, ZSS, Corrin, Ridley.

[Zevox]

Well, I have another character in Elite Smash now, and I'd say this one definitely proves there's something nonsensical about Smash's ranking system. That character is Pit, someone I have played only a little of in every game since he was added in Brawl. In fact, in Ultimate's ranked (Quickplay) mode, I've played exactly three games with him. Yes, 3, no more. I won all of them, but still, just 3. Somehow that's enough to make Pit my highest-ranked character. That third match he gained five times more rank for the win than my Ike does when fighting around the same rank.

Yeah, I don't know how Nintendo is calculating GSP, but safe to say the results of it are not making any sense. :smallconfused:

[Sylian]

Regarding Elite Smash: Once you have one character in Elite Smash it'll get easier to get more characters into Elite Smash, in many cases you can get a new character in after 1-2 wins. This is to avoid having good players having to grind to get in Elite Smash with other characters.

[Zevox]

Regarding Elite Smash: Once you have one character in Elite Smash it'll get easier to get more characters into Elite Smash, in many cases you can get a new character in after 1-2 wins. This is to avoid having good players having to grind to get in Elite Smash with other characters.
I already have three characters in Elite Smash, actually - Dedede, Cloud, and Pit. Yet my Ike continues to gain 20k or less GSP per win while within about the last 200k before the cutoff to get in. While of course losing almost twice as much per loss.

It honestly feels like the system is designed for you to have larger GSP swings the fewer matches you've played with a character, and gets more and more set as to what your rank is the more you've played them. I've played hundreds of games with Ike now and his rank gain has stagnated because of how low the numbers he's getting have become, but every time I pick up a character I've played a lot less with, even if they're up in higher ranks, they have much bigger rank swings per match, win or lose. Like the goal of the rank system is to figure out the rank you "belong" at after a certain number of matches played with a given character and more or less keep you there unless you go on a big win streak. Which, if so, would not be a great design for a rank system I'd say.

But oh well, I'm still really enjoying the game - I mean, after a month and a half of playing it basically daily, I still have to force myself to stop when the time comes to end a play session.

Lately I've been playing more with the Miis, and have to say, I'm quite happy that they're online-legal this time around. I didn't play them much in Smash 4 since they weren't and I didn't get a ton of offline play with them aside from the little single-player I did, but it's really nice having these customizable characters that I can make stand-ins for characters that aren't in the game. Personal favorites so far are my Yang (RWBY) Brawler with Falcon Punch Burning Kick and Firey Dropkick, Chie (Persona 4) Brawler with all the kick specials, Viridi Swordfighter with that whirlwind neutral special (which I have a very hard time not just putting on all my swordfighters because it's so good), and Trish (Devil May Cry) Swordfighter with the shuriken neutral special standing in her for lightning blasts from MvC3. Not as big a fan of the Gunner, I find that one a bit awkward, but I play it sometimes too, usually with my Proto Man or Doctor Robotnik.

I've also taken Pokémon Trainer into quickplay lately, and become a much bigger fan of her/them. Very surprised to find myself liking all three of the Pokémon, even Charizard, who I very much never expected to like. Squirtle is still definitely my favorite, but they're all surprising me with how fun they are, and in general with how fun being able to switch characters mid-match to adapt to the situation or specific opponent can be. The Trainer's definitely climbing the ranks of my played characters pretty quickly.

[tonberrian]

And 2.0, with Piranha Plant, is live. You can also find the Mario event-only spirits and Companion Pikachu and Companion Eevee in the Spirit board. I now have a complete spirit-dex!

[Zevox]

This is also a good time to remind everyone that if you want Piranha Plant to be free, you'll have to grab him up fast - that window closes at the end of the month, so only two days to get him if you haven't. Just have an account with Nintendo and register your copy of the game from the home menu of the Switch, and they'll e-mail the download code to whatever e-mail you have the account under.

Tried him myself tonight in Classic Mode, and eh, he is weird, and not in a way that feels fun or appealing to me. I will definitely take all of the matches I'm getting against people trying to figure him out online though, kind of nice getting some easier fights in between more challenging opponents for a change.

Hopefully this means we're only a couple of months out from when we'll see Joker's release now. I am eager as hell for that one. Heck, even just give me a gameplay trailer for him, I just really want to see him in actual action already, so that him being in Smash actually feels real.


You can also find the Mario event-only spirits and Companion Pikachu and Companion Eevee in the Spirit board. I now have a complete spirit-dex!
Oh, they appear on the board now as well? I noticed the news update said they'd be in the shop, and I nabbed Companion Pikachu there myself, but didn't know they'd be elsewhere. Good to know I can grab the Evee off the board if the shop doesn't cooperate, since he's now the only one I don't have.

Also, we have actual patch notes (https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/43317) for the first time ever! That's surprising. Lots of minor changes mostly it looks like (a lot of random air attacks had their landing recovery or the time they prevent you from grabbing the ledge reduced a bit), but with a few notables:

- A number of attacks with the bury effect had the duration shortened... though it says "on undamaged opponents." If that literally means only on characters at 0% damage, that's a pretty meaningless change I'd say, but if it's a general duration decrease, it might matter quite a bit, especially with two of the moves being K. Rool's down throw and Inkling's roller.
- King K. Rool was the subject of a couple of other nerfs, with the duration that he can hold the suction effect of his neutral special shortened and the "attack range" of his up special reduced. A quick test of the former showed it to be a very noticeable decrease, so you won't see K. Rools getting away with just holding that at the ledge forever anymore. I'm assuming the latter refers to the propeller hitbox, since quick testing showed the distance that it travels still seems the same. Though that same quick testing still had the propeller hitting through the platform when he grabs the edge, so, not sure how big that particular nerf was.
- Chrom's up special now causes him to die first in suicide-kill situations, like Bowser and Ganondorf's suicide moves. Pretty predictable and fair nerf.
- Incineroar's recovery was buffed, with his up special getting both vertical and horizontal distance increased, which might be big for him since that's his biggest weakness.
- Palutena's neutral air lost some hitstun. Quick testing shows me it can still true combo into itself at low percents, so I'm guessing this just means she can't string 3-4 of them together anymore for 40% or so damage like I saw some tournament players were able to do.
- Mii Brawler got a lot of buffs... though some of them are unclear since they're just labeled "[direction] special," and obviously the Miis have three of those each. And the changes aren't to all three, since there's separate entries for some to imply that two of the three were changed. King of annoying that, but eh, Brawler needed buffs, so nice to see them getting them.
- Dedede's gordo range got nerfed for some reason :smallannoyed: (not entirely sure whether this means travel distance or hitbox size/priority). Not sure why they did that, Dedede needs buffs, not nerfs.
- Snake got a slight buff to his up tilt for some ungodly reason. :smalleek:
- Sheik got a couple of buffs to her smash attacks. Not sure how much that'll help her, since I don't play her, but I've heard she's pretty bad in Ultimate due to loss of killing power, so maybe this will be what she needed.

And a couple of more universal changes: first, they added a shortcut to do a short-hop without attacking by hitting both jump buttons simultaneously. That's awesome, since the faster jump animation in this game had made the window to do a manual short-hop pretty darn tight. Definitely a fan of that one.

Second, they changed the way that GSP is calculated for online play... somehow. No explanation of how that works. The change is definitely noticeable, though, since a bunch of my characters had their GSP change a bit - and in fact, I had all of my Elite Smash characters fall out of that except for King Dedede. Which is a bit odd since he wasn't my highest GSP character before, Pit was. But oh well, I was able to get Ike back in with just one win, and don't much care if Cloud and Pit get back in. Guess we'll see if GSP starts seeming to make any more sense now after this unspecified change.

[DaOldeWolf]

Been playing piranha plant since its arrival. I like the carácter. It has been a lot of fun. It feels quite heavy as a a char. It might become a new main. It can pack quite the punch. Now, my sights are on getting the amiibo.

I wonder how long it will take for the next char to arrive. Meanwhile I might play WoL again with Piranha plant.

Words of caution. Dont play all star with piranha plant!

[tonberrian]

Dont play all star with piranha plant!

More on this: Apparently piranha plant in All-Star Mode can corrupt your save data. So yeah, don't do that.

[Zevox]

Been playing piranha plant since its arrival. I like the carácter. It has been a lot of fun. It feels quite heavy as a a char. It might become a new main. It can pack quite the punch. Now, my sights are on getting the amiibo.
Piranha Plant is definitely heavier than you'd expect from his size, that's for sure. I don't know if he's truly into heavyweight status, but higher end midweight for sure.

From a couple of days of playing against him, I'm thinking he's probably not going to be all that great by competitive standards. His normals seem mostly just okay - fairly potent forward and up smashes as far as killing power goes, but little else of note. He has a few pretty strong uses for his specials, but they each seem to contain a serious flaw too: the spike ball is powerful, has edge-guarding applications, and can drop on someone hitting him if he just holds it over his head, but is slow, only flies at a very specific angle, and if he tries the hold it and get hit thing he can get screwed by someone just stopping in front of him and forward smashing or the like. The poison cloud does a lot of damage but has no hitstun and can be easily avoided in most situations. His down special has armor and range and serious power if he hits from a long distance, but is weak if he hits up close, can't change the angle after the pot tips over, leaves him stationary, and like all armored moves can be thrown. And the up special has fantastic distance, but its hitbox is out to the sides, leaving him more vulnerable to dair spikes than most. He seems like a character that's going to be more goofy fun for people to screw around with than anything you'd see in tournaments, basically.

On a separate note, remember how I mentioned there was a change to a few characters' bury attacks (K. Rool's down throw, Inkling's roller, and Zero Suit Samus' flip kick) in the patch, but it was a it unclear how it worked due to the wording? Turns out it's a weird one. Apparently they nerfed the base bury time, but increased the multiplier for how much time damage adds. In practice, that means those attacks' bury effect basically lasts less time now when under about 100-120% damage, but actually lasts longer than it used to once damage gets above that. So that was arguably a buff, actually, since you most want those effects at those high percents to set up for a guaranteed smash attack to get a kill. Yeah, not sure if that's what they intended to do there. :smallconfused:

[DaOldeWolf]

Piranha Plant is definitely heavier than you'd expect from his size, that's for sure. I don't know if he's truly into heavyweight status, but higher end midweight for sure.

From a couple of days of playing against him, I'm thinking he's probably not going to be all that great by competitive standards. His normals seem mostly just okay - fairly potent forward and up smashes as far as killing power goes, but little else of note. He has a few pretty strong uses for his specials, but they each seem to contain a serious flaw too: the spike ball is powerful, has edge-guarding applications, and can drop on someone hitting him if he just holds it over his head, but is slow, only flies at a very specific angle, and if he tries the hold it and get hit thing he can get screwed by someone just stopping in front of him and forward smashing or the like. The poison cloud does a lot of damage but has no hitstun and can be easily avoided in most situations. His down special has armor and range and serious power if he hits from a long distance, but is weak if he hits up close, can't change the angle after the pot tips over, leaves him stationary, and like all armored moves can be thrown. And the up special has fantastic distance, but its hitbox is out to the sides, leaving him more vulnerable to dair spikes than most. He seems like a character that's going to be more goofy fun for people to screw around with than anything you'd see in tournaments, basically.

On a separate note, remember how I mentioned there was a change to a few characters' bury attacks (K. Rool's down throw, Inkling's roller, and Zero Suit Samus' flip kick) in the patch, but it was a it unclear how it worked due to the wording? Turns out it's a weird one. Apparently they nerfed the base bury time, but increased the multiplier for how much time damage adds. In practice, that means those attacks' bury effect basically lasts less time now when under about 100-120% damage, but actually lasts longer than it used to once damage gets above that. So that was arguably a buff, actually, since you most want those effects at those high percents to set up for a guaranteed smash attack to get a kill. Yeah, not sure if that's what they intended to do there. :smallconfused:

Yeah I agree. I would add that its normal attacks dont have that much range and it has a pretty poor air game. Many aerials dont let you act after using them. The down b is easy to predict due to the moving pot. Neutral game is a big disadvantage for PP but it has a good moveset to keep the pressure coming. I dont see it being top tier material either. Still, I think it has a fun enough playstyle to main.

[danzibr]

Echoing the normal attacks and air game stinking.

I really like his over B though.

[Rising Phoenix]

So at what point does one unlock elite smash? I have 2.5 mil on roy... and still no dice.

[Lord Raziere]

I got my piranha plant. I kind of like it. Its not fav or main, but I can play it and enjoy it.

[Zevox]

So, biggest thing I wish they'd do with quickplay online: add something before your match starts that gives you some basic info about your opponent and the chance to decide whether to accept the match or not. At least show their connection quality, preferably also their current rules and rank. Because seriously, much as I'm loving the game otherwise, it does get frustrating to run into someone with a crap connection that makes the whole fight miserable to play, or running a ruleset that I would never agree to play. (And I'm not even mostly thinking of items or the like with that last one, that's really rare up at higher ranks. I mean people running a 3 minute time limit on a 3 stock match, which makes it very likely for the match to end in either a time-out win or sudden death, especially if they're playing a projectile-heavy character, which they usually are if they have that rule set.)


So at what point does one unlock elite smash? I have 2.5 mil on roy... and still no dice.
Not sure how exactly they calculate it, but it changes as time goes on, so I'm guessing that it's once you're in some top percentile of the total number of players (which is what GSP supposedly represents - the number of online players that the game's ranking system puts you as higher ranked than). Currently it's up somewhere north of 3.55 mil - my lowest-ranked character that's in it is at 3.578 mil, and I'm sure that's just above the cutoff. I had a character at 3.51 mil earlier who wasn't in.

Edit: Woohoo, got my Palutena into Elite Smash tonight! That's three of my top five in there now - Ike, Dedede, and her. Just Chrom and Pokémon Trainer to go. Though I do have some doubts about whether I can get Chrom there, with how easily he gets gimped thanks to his up special being so vulnerable and him having no other recovery tools whatsoever.

Edit 2 (3 days later): And Chrom and Pokémon Trainer both in Elite Smash, and on the same day no less! Personal goal for ranked Smash, achieved! :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Big, and rather sudden, news! Joker and the 3.0 update (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmuTGcbu4Kc) to the game arrive tomorrow (4/17)!

Stuff being added:
- Challenger Pack 1: Joker as a playable character, Mementos stage. The stage changes color depending what song is playing, being red for P5 songs, yellow for P4 songs, and blue for P3 songs. $5.99 or as part of the Fighters Pass.
--11 songs: Last Surprise; Beneath the Mask (new arrangement); Wake Up, Get Up, Get Out There; Rivers in the Desert; Our Beginning; Reach Out to the Truth; I'll Face Myself (new arrangement); Time To Make History; Mass Destruction; Battle Hymn of the Soul; Aria of the Soul (new arrangement).
-- Persona spirits, available on a special (presumably DLC-only) new Spirit Board.
- Mii Costumes: Yu Narukami/P4 Protagonist (Swordsman), Minato Arisato/P3 Protagonist (Swordsman), Morgana Hat, Teddie Hat, Tails (Gunner), Knuckles (Brawler). Only 75 cents each.

Free stuff!:
- Stage Creator! Looks considerably more in-depth than Brawl's, including the ability to draw what you want into it using the touch screen in the Switch's handheld mode.
- Video editor for saved videos.
- Ability to share and download created stages, videos, and Mii Fighters online (if you're subscribed to the online service).

Well, I know what I'll be doing with all of my spare time tomorrow! :smallbiggrin:

[Yana]

My only quibble is that they didn't add "Life Will Change" or "Whims of Fate", but I can live with the musical selection.

Especially since they gave me a Makoto spirit and had her join in for Joker's Final Smash.

[Zevox]

My only quibble is that they didn't add "Life Will Change" or "Whims of Fate", but I can live with the musical selection.

Especially since they gave me a Makoto spirit and had her join in for Joker's Final Smash.
Yeah, lack of Life Will Change is baffling and disappointing. But we did get P3&4 music, including Reach Out to the Truth, and the rest of my favorite P5 tracks are in there, so can't complain too much. Plus Yu and Minato outfits for Miis, awesome. I was hoping for a Makoto or Chie Brawler outfit, but eh, my versions of those work okay as-is, and I will definitely grab Yu. Also Knuckles.

I do wish Joker's Final Smash were the technique he uses to defeat the final boss instead of just All-Out Attack though, personally. They did at least make All-Out Attack look absolutely perfect to how it does in P5 though, and his win screen recreating the fight win screens from P5 is a wonderful touch.