Thunderwave vs. silence

[holywhippet]

So obviously you won't take damage from thunderwave if you are inside of a silence spell. But what about the secondary effect of pushing anyone who fails their save 10 feet away? The rules don't indicate that won't work from what I can see.

[Trask]

So obviously you won't take damage from thunderwave if you are inside of a silence spell. But what about the secondary effect of pushing anyone who fails their save 10 feet away? The rules don't indicate that won't work from what I can see.

Since Silence makes verbal components impossible, it seems to me that the spell doesnt block sound, it entirely nullifies all sound in the area. If it only blocked sound, I could still speak the verbal components, I just wouldnt hear myself say them but the spell should still work since I said the magic words. But since it doesnt, that leads me to believe that sound itself is entirely impossible. And since the pushing effect of thunderwave is the impact of great sound I think that would probably be nullified as well.

[Blood of Gaea]

The push effect would still happen, it would just be silent.

[Maelynn]

The secondary effect is caused by the force of the sound waves. If the sound is unable to pass through (as per the wording of the silence spell), then that means there aren't any sound waves inside the silenced area. No waves = no pushing effect.

[Keravath]

If you want a real world physics viewpoint (which may or may not be relevant).

Sound IS the displacement/movement of the atmosphere. Your ears detect the changes in atmospheric pressure and interpret the small variations as sound.

Here is the text of Silence:

"For the duration, no sound can be created within or pass through a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. Any creature or object entirely inside the sphere is immune to thunder damage ..."

Silence suppresses the ability of sound to be created or propagate in a 20' radius.

Here is Thunderwave:

"A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you."

.. and this is the point where a DM gets to decide.

Is "thunderous force" a sound or is it a magical force with a sound component? Silence specifically prevents the damage ... however, if the spell is a force then silence would not prevent the knock back effect. On the other hand, if the DM believes the spell to be entirely sound based then the Silence would prevent the knock-back.

Personally, since the Thunderwave description specifically uses the word "force" and we are talking about magic then I would tend to say that the damage is nullified but the push back is possible.

Also, keep in mind that with a 20' radius (40' diameter for silence) and the maximum 15' range for Thunderwave (15' cube originating at the caster) ... then the target of the Thunderwave would have to be near the edge of the Silence to be hit and a 10' push back would likely leave them still in the area of Silence.

[Maelynn]

Is "thunderous force" a sound or is it a magical force with a sound component?

This is a very interesting question.

Thunder in itself is not a sound wave. It's a forceful displacement of air, which in turn creates a sound. So it's not the sound that creates waves with pushback, it's the other way around.

By that logic, I'd concur that the pushback effect would still happen.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a very interesting question.

Thunder in itself is not a sound wave. It's a forceful displacement of air, which in turn creates a sound. So it's not the sound that creates waves with pushback, it's the other way around.

By that logic, I'd concur that the pushback effect would still happen. Yes; on a failed save.

[Keravath]

This is a very interesting question.

Thunder in itself is not a sound wave. It's a forceful displacement of air, which in turn creates a sound. So it's not the sound that creates waves with pushback, it's the other way around.

By that logic, I'd concur that the pushback effect would still happen.

Actually no. "Forceful displacement of air" is the definition of a loud sound. Our ears perceive the large displacement of air as a loud sound. The frequency associated with the displacement controls the pitch of the sound we perceive. A "sound wave" is just the propagation of a pressure displacement through air.

The silence spell prevents the creation or propagation of sound ... this means that it actually has to prevent or at least strongly damp any air pressure variation within the region of the spell.

However, D&D is magic so when Thunderwave is described as a thunderous force ... the force does not necessarily need to be propagated by any physically possible mechanism. So although the creature inside the silence won't take any thunder damage it may be susceptible to the push back on a failed save depending on how the DM decides the force of the spell is propagated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound

[Blood of Gaea]

Actually no. "Forceful displacement of air" is the definition of a loud sound. Our ears perceive the large displacement of air as a loud sound. The frequency associated with the displacement controls the pitch of the sound we perceive. A "sound wave" is just the propagation of a pressure displacement through air.

The silence spell prevents the creation or propagation of sound ... this means that it actually has to prevent or at least strongly damp any air pressure variation within the region of the spell.

However, D&D is magic so when Thunderwave is described as a thunderous force ... the force does not necessarily need to be propagated by any physically possible mechanism. So although the creature inside the silence won't take any thunder damage it may be susceptible to the push back on a failed save depending on how the DM decides the force of the spell is propagated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound
If you can't displace air that would also make everyone in the radius immobile, as they can no longer move.

This isn't science, it's magic. Thunder wave causes damage, pushback, and sound, silence stops the sound portion.

[ciarannihill]

If you want to apply physics to Silence you're running into issues from go, but let's just assume that they apply -- in that case Silence mechanically seems to work best by altering frequency of sound within it to a wavelength that cannot be heard by any living creature. Doesn't mean sound waves aren't occurring, but that they merely are inaudible.

The spell is called "Silence" because to the people in DnD worlds don't understand the underlying physics behind the phenomenon. To them, it just makes everything silent.


^ This is all under the assumption that you could apply physics to DnD spells, which we all know you can't and shouldn't try to -- the amount of energy required to use Dimension Door or Rope Trick within our physics would be...Let's just say it's magic and leave it at that.

[ad_hoc]

If you can't displace air that would also make everyone in the radius immobile, as they can no longer move.

This isn't science, it's magic. Thunder wave causes damage, pushback, and sound, silence stops the sound portion.

Yes, it's magic. Theme trumps all. So Thunderwave just doesn't work because that is the thematic ruling.

[DMThac0]

Thunderwave requires verbal and somatic components

Silence makes everything silent

If it makes everything silent then you can't cast the spell.


Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren’t the source of the spell’s power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. - Player's Handbook p. 204

The push effect is nullified by this...

[holywhippet]

Thunderwave requires verbal and somatic components

Silence makes everything silent

If it makes everything silent then you can't cast the spell.



The push effect is nullified by this...

Yes, but the target of the thunderwave might be inside of the silence effect while the caster is outside of it. Even if they are inside of it, at level 20 a druid doesn't need to perform the verbal or somatic component of a spell and a sorcerer using subtle spell can do the same.

[Matrix_Walker]

The push happens. There is nothing in the RAW preventing it. You could easily say the force wave is created by air compression at the source, and that compressed air can enter an area of silence. If you are entirely in the area of silence, you are immune to thunder damage, but not any secondary effects.

[ad_hoc]

The push happens. There is nothing in the RAW preventing it. You could easily say the force wave is created by air compression at the source, and that compressed air can enter an area of silence. If you are entirely in the area of silence, you are immune to thunder damage, but not any secondary effects.

RAW (as you are using it) a candle doesn't need to be lit to provide light.

Only, we all know that it does. Just because the nuances of every interaction aren't spelled out doesn't mean they aren't the rules.

[DMThac0]

Yes, but the target of the thunderwave might be inside of the silence effect while the caster is outside of it. Even if they are inside of it, at level 20 a druid doesn't need to perform the verbal or somatic component of a spell and a sorcerer using subtle spell can do the same.

If the caster is outside of the spell, then the spell works as intended.

If the caster uses subtle spell (or any variant there of), then the spell works as intended.

It could be considered similar to casting a Daylight spell in Darkness, without the auto-dispell.

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While I love the debate from a physics stand point, the game doesn't need to cover every possible angle of every possible scenario: Magic is not physics when it comes to D&D.