PF - Dual wield vs 2 hander

[EliteChoboHax]

Hi there all! :)

Our GM recently decided that he was going to improve dual wielding a bit, by having both hands deal full damage, essentially saving up a feat, if one wants to go the dual wield route.

Can someone break down how close the two styles are to each other now? I know the 2 handed style was ahead by a nice amount before, because it requires no real feat investment, while still doing better. Just wondering if this change would make much more on par than before?

[Firechanter]

TWF actually has been upgraded in PF anyway, especially with Sword&Board it's now considered damage king, as far as I know.

THF is kind of your low-maintenance, low-investment style with reasonable returns. TWF is high-investment but now offers potentially higher returns.
The main trick is the Shield Master feat, which allows you perform Shield Bashes with no TWF penalties.
If you are a tasteless plebejan who has had any inkling of aesthetics surgically removed, you can also wield dual-shields. Personally as a GM I'd never let that fly. (The wording on Shield Master makes this interpretation dubious anyway).

If you really want to throw love at TWF, look no further than Path of War. There's a feat called Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting iirc, which alone works wonders.

Also, the Brawler class gets gets full Str mod on both hands, so there is precedence to what you have in mind.

[EliteChoboHax]

TWF actually has been upgraded in PF anyway, especially with Sword&Board it's now considered damage king, as far as I know.

THF is kind of your low-maintenance, low-investment style with reasonable returns. TWF is high-investment but now offers potentially higher returns.
The main trick is the Shield Master feat, which allows you perform Shield Bashes with no TWF penalties.
If you are a tasteless plebejan who has had any inkling of aesthetics surgically removed, you can also wield dual-shields. Personally as a GM I'd never let that fly. (The wording on Shield Master makes this interpretation dubious anyway).

If you really want to throw love at TWF, look no further than Path of War. There's a feat called Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting iirc, which alone works wonders.

Also, the Brawler class gets gets full Str mod on both hands, so there is precedence to what you have in mind.

I will check up on that feat - In any case, i will not be running a sword and shield character, i will be using two blades, i should have specified that

[Firechanter]

That's okay. You can fight away with dual longswords - or even dual bastard swords or dwarven waraxes or whatevs - if you play your cards right.

[EliteChoboHax]

That's okay. You can fight away with dual longswords - or even dual bastard swords or dwarven waraxes or whatevs - if you play your cards right.

Thats what i was looking at, using dual Longswords - But is the feat really worth it? Its not a huge increase in the damage for a whole feat, is it?

[Firechanter]

Which feat?
PTWF not only allows you to treat a one-handed as a light weapon; that's just icing. The main benefit is that you get to qualify for TWF feats with Strength rather than Dex.

If you're referring to Exotic WP, here the trick is never to burn that feat slot. There's a cracked ioun stone that gives you weapon familiarity for 1500GP or so. Done.

[EliteChoboHax]

Which feat?
PTWF not only allows you to treat a one-handed as a light weapon; that's just icing. The main benefit is that you get to qualify for TWF feats with Strength rather than Dex.

If you're referring to Exotic WP, here the trick is never to burn that feat slot. There's a cracked ioun stone that gives you weapon familiarity for 1500GP or so. Done.

Nah thats not it, my characters has 18 dex and 20 strength, so thats not required. I just want to DW onehanded swords, preferably longswords, in case i opt for weapon focus at some point. Also we do cannot craft magic items, nor purchase them, so that stone is a very unlikely things as well

[CharonsHelper]

Mathematically in PF, TWF normally gives you about a 20% increase in damage per round (over two-handing), ignoring issues such as needing to full attack & DR, as well as the feat cost.

This of course varies by class. The more static damage you have, the better TWF is. Besides characters with SA (which is situational), Samurai actually probably get the most out of TWF, as starting around level 7 (with Chain Challenge) they'll have their Challenge up the bulk of the time, which is a major increase in damage per hit.

Of course, at high levels with critical effects TWF becomes that much more beneficial.

[Lotheb]

The changes will definitely help twf at low levels, but at higher levels you're going to run in to the classic problems of twf: you need a lot of feats and two magic weapons. Since you can't buy or craft magic items getting two good weapons will be entirely dependent on your DM putting them in the game. If that helps or hurts depends on your DM, but I wouldnt specialize in any paticular kind of weapon in that case. For the feats, you still need at least TWF and ITWF, PTWF if you're commited to dual longswords. What would you spend those feats on if you didn't go do two weapons?

[EliteChoboHax]

The changes will definitely help twf at low levels, but at higher levels you're going to run in to the classic problems of twf: you need a lot of feats and two magic weapons. Since you can't buy or craft magic items getting two good weapons will be entirely dependent on your DM putting them in the game. If that helps or hurts depends on your DM, but I wouldnt specialize in any paticular kind of weapon in that case. For the feats, you still need at least TWF and ITWF, PTWF if you're commited to dual longswords. What would you spend those feats on if you didn't go do two weapons?

I was hoping to dual longswords, as i already have a pretty crazy one and if i could get another magical one (I know i will be able to eventually), then i could go for Weapon Focus to offset the hit reduction and then follow up with archery feats. I am a Ranger with Archery picked as my ranger speciality, spending all my other feats on melee and such instead.

[Erit]

Why not dual-wield two-handed weapons? There's a Piercing Thunder stance for that.

[CharonsHelper]

I was hoping to dual longswords, as i already have a pretty crazy one and if i could get another magical one (I know i will be able to eventually), then i could go for Weapon Focus to offset the hit reduction and then follow up with archery feats. I am a Ranger with Archery picked as my ranger speciality, spending all my other feats on melee and such instead.

You really shouldn't mix two such feat hungry combat styles.

And really - Ranger Archers only VERY rarely should pick up a melee weapon. Starting at 6 you shouldn't even provoke AOOs.

[Lotheb]

Oh man yeah if you just want a backup for when your bow isn't an option definetly go with a twohander. Quickdraw, Mixed Combat might be worthwhile, but mostly put your feats into archery and just use whatever the best sword you find that nobody else wants.

[Firechanter]

Mathematically in PF, TWF normally gives you about a 20% increase in damage per round (over two-handing), ignoring issues such as needing to full attack & DR, as well as the feat cost.

I'm not so sure about that. Lemme check that with tejon's spreadsheet...

Contender A: THF
BAB 11, Str 22, Dex 14, +3 Weapon (Greatsword), Power Attack, Improved Crit, Crit Focus (to keep it simple); +2/+2 from Inspire Courage
--> avg dmg vs AC25: 57.6

Contender B: Dex-based TWF
BAB 11, Dex 22, Str 14, 2x +2 Weapons, Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF; +2 IC
--> avg dmg vs AC25: 29.7

Contender C: Str-based TWF (e.g. TWF Ranger)
BAB 11, Str 22, Dex 14, 2x +2 Weapons (Longsword and Shortsword), TWF, ITWF, GTWF, +2 IC
--> avg dmg vs AC25: 41.3

Note: I picked one +3 weapon vs 2x +2 weapons because they cost roughly the same amount of WBL.

Verdict:
Dex-based TWF is TERRIBLE and delivers barely more than HALF the damage of a not even really optimized THFer, even though utilizing one more feat (which only accounts for 2 points of dmg, anyway).
Str-based TWF is somewhere in the middle of the road but still a long shot away from THF.

Of course you can improve the TWF build by adding more feats. But then to remain fair, you should increase the feat count on the THF benchmark as well.
Also keep in mind the THF build isn't optimal. Just by picking a different base weapon we can exceed 60.0 DPR.

Admittedly, this only covers very basic builds. As I implied further up, you can probably get a lot more mileage if you go for a Shield Master build, use Brawler etc. At some point, with sufficient investment, a THF build probably runs out of meaningful feats to take where a TWF build can still pile on stuff, so there's that.

[CharonsHelper]

Dex-based TWF is TERRIBLE and delivers barely more than HALF the damage of a not even really optimized THFer, even though utilizing one more feat (which only accounts for 2 points of dmg, anyway).
Str-based TWF is somewhere in the middle of the road but still a long shot away from THF.

Your comparison has tiny amounts of static damage - PA being the bulk of it.

As I said before - TWF comes into its own when you start stacking on the static damage. Your TWF builds have ZERO character static damage. A fighter would have 6/swing from Weapon Training (with gloves of dueling) and Weapon Specialization. A samurai will have 13/swing from Weapon Spec & Challenge - and likely d6 acid damage from Deliquescent Gloves. A Slayer will be getting +3 from Studied Target and potentially an extra 3d6 from SA.

No DEX build by level 11 isn't getting DEX to Damage somehow - from Agile weapons at worst. And why would a DEX build bother with a 14 STR? The whole advantage is being more SAD. Even Inspire Courage is +3 by level 11. Either a single +3 weapon or two +2 weapons is VERY low wealth by level 11 and well under WBL.

So yes, with the sub-par TWF builds you put forward TWF isn't very good.

I'll throw a decent fighter build together (could certainly be better - and other classes get more out of TWF)

Halfling Fighter (20pt buy)

STR: 6
DEX: 26 (includes +4 from belt)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Pair of +2 agile kukri (36k) / +4 DEX belt (16k) / Dueling Gloves (15k)

Other wealth spent on defense

All 3 TWF feats, Improved Crit, WF, WS, & GWF

Attack: +29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 (BAB +11 / DEX + 8 / Enchant +2 / +4 Weapon Training / +2 Feats / +3 Inspire Courage / +1 Size / -2 TWF)

Damage: 1d3+ (+8 DEX / +2 Weapon / +4 Training / +2 Feat / +3 Inspire Courage) - 27.3 per hit (main hand) / 22.1 (off hand) - average 24.7 damage per hit

vs AC 25

Average of 5.3 hits

130.91 Average Damage Per Round

[Firechanter]

Your comparison has tiny amounts of static damage - PA being the bulk of it.


As I said -- it doesn't really matter what you slap on and how much you optimize, because when you apply the same level of optimization to THF the bar gets raised accordingly.

If I re-script your cornerstone build to THF, making the following changes:
- Human, STR 26
- PA instead of TWF
- single +4 weapon (Falchion) instead of 2 +3s (I actually save money). A Nodachi would yield a few more points again, but let's keep it generic.

...I already arrive at 134.4 damage per round, avg 3.6 hits, BEFORE even reassigning the two remaining TWF feats.
If I use those two extra feat slots for, I dunno, the Hurtful & Cornugon Smash Combo, the DPR may go up to 185. Not to mention the added benefit of being less dependent on Full Attacks. Even if I can't or don't want to take this combo, I could still take pretty much anything else and still be guaranteed to come out ahead of TWF.

[CharonsHelper]

As I said -- it doesn't really matter what you slap on and how much you optimize, because when you apply the same level of optimization to THF the bar gets raised accordingly.

If I re-script your cornerstone build to THF, making the following changes:
- Human, STR 26
- PA instead of TWF
- single +4 weapon (Falchion) instead of 2 +3s (I actually save money). A Nodachi would yield a few more points again, but let's keep it generic.

...I already arrive at 134.4 damage per round, avg 3.6 hits, BEFORE even reassigning the two remaining TWF feats.
If I use those two extra feat slots for, I dunno, the Hurtful & Cornugon Smash Combo, the DPR may go up to 185. Not to mention the added benefit of being less dependent on Full Attacks. Even if I can't or don't want to take this combo, I could still take pretty much anything else and still be guaranteed to come out ahead of TWF.

Flawed comparison.

1. A STR build can't GET a 26 STR at level 11 without gimping themselves. A DEX build can do it by dumping STR for minimal negative effect. A STR build that dumps DEX is hosing their AC, initiative, and reflex save.

So lets see how it actually stacks up with the nodachi:

Attack: +28/+23/+18 (BAB +11 / STR + 7 / Enchant +4 / +4 Weapon Training / +2 Feats / +3 Inspire Courage / -3 PA)

Damage: 1d10+ (+10 STR / +4 Weapon / +4 Training / +2 Feat / +3 Inspire Courage / +9 PA) - 48.75 damage per hit

vs AC 25

Average of 2.55 hits

124.3125 Average Damage Per Round

So nope. Less damage. And as I stated above, the fighter isn't even the best class for TWF.

And yes - you will have some extra feats to burn and an extra 4k of gold. The gold will be more than spent on more expensive armor (mithril is much more expensive on full plate) and the extra feats won't make up for all of the many utility advantages of that 26 DEX build. (Higher initiative, reflex, better bonus for skills, no armor check penalty, and faster movement speed.)

Again - there are definite advantages to two-handed combat. They're better against DR & less reliant upon full attacking. But in terms of raw damage, TWF is better past the early levels. As you level past 11 the difference will only widen because static damage will increase, and PA becomes less and less valuable (since it's a % accuracy penalty for a numerical damage increase).

[Firechanter]

Flawed comparison.
1. A STR build can't GET a 26 STR at level 11 without gimping themselves. A DEX build can do it by dumping STR for minimal negative effect. A STR build that dumps DEX is hosing their AC, initiative, and reflex save.

If we're going into that level of detail, are you really sure that a carrying capacity of _15 pounds_ isn't going to hose your halfling way before you get anywhere near level 11?

A Human can get to Str 26 like anyone can get to a 26. Start out with 20, yeah that's expensive, so what, as a Fighter you can dump Wis or Cha or whatever.
Or you can scrounge up some money and get a +6 Belt.
Or in the worst case let him be behind a bit at level 11, and catch up again at level 12.


And yes - you will have some extra feats to burn and an extra 4k of gold. The gold will be more than spent on more expensive armor (mithril is much more expensive on full plate)

Why would he even buy Mithral Full Plate?
Yes the Dex build has a higher move speed, granted. So what, we don't want to move anyway, we want to push out Full Attacks. High Ini isn't really relevant for non-casters; on the contrary it means you get to act before the Bard can even start up IC and other buffs come online. Higher skillchecks are absolutely irrelevant on a class that doesn't have any meaningful skills to begin with. What remains is the higher Ref save.

And again, two more feats, or actually three if we go with Human. I don't know if the Hurtful/Smash combo (and the Str to Intimidate feat if we dumped Cha) ist the most powerful option, but it's definitely out there and promises a very reliable extra attack for some +50 extra dpr. I still don't see how a TWFer would catch up with that, not at higher levels either.

(All this is kinda a math exercise anyway -- in actual play my current Paladin is less optimized than that and the GM is already giving me glares for my damage output anyway. :smallbiggrin: )

[CharonsHelper]

If we're going into that level of detail, are you really sure that a carrying capacity of _15 pounds_ isn't going to hose your halfling way before you get anywhere near level 11?


That's what the Muscle of the Society trait is for.

And/or buying a donkey. :smallbiggrin: