Buying Cantrips Broken?

[Pope Scarface]

How unbalancing would it be to be able to learn additional cantrips beyond the number determined by your class?

What about being able to learn cantrips as a non-spellcasting class?

-Edit
After reading replies, I'm leaning towards incorporating learning new cantrips with gold/downtime, but the additional cantrips take an attunement slot per cantrip. Spellcasters can pick from their known cantrips and swap out with a long rest, but cantrips not from their own list have to take an attunement slot.

[sophontteks]

Depends on how they could be aquired.

[dreast]

The magical prodigy feat sort of explains the answer. It allows two cantrips, with the limitation that they come from the same class but also allows a first level spell once per day. All in all, they're about two thirds of a feat or so in value. Allowing them to be learned should cost something commensurate.

[Pope Scarface]

Specifically cantrips as purchasable with gold or as a reward from a quest giver.

How strong is the Magical Prodigy feat? Is this feat a fair one to measure game balance of other concepts against or not really?

[sophontteks]

Purchasable with gold is broken.
As a rare one-time quest reward? Should be fine.

[Kane0]

Well as long as everybody can get them it should be fine. It wouldn't be fair if the mages could buy an attack cantrip for every occasion but the martials couldn't even pick up mending or prestidigitation to maintain their gear.

[ErrantNonsense]

Buying from outside your class’ list could introduce some issues. Melee Bards and Clerics would love ways to get BB/GFB without investing in magic initiate or multiclassing, for example.

Limited to utility/nondamaging cantrips, I can see it giving some under appreciated options a chance at being used.

[ad_hoc]

Well as long as everybody can get them it should be fine. It wouldn't be fair if the mages could buy an attack cantrip for every occasion but the martials couldn't even pick up mending or prestidigitation to maintain their gear.

This is not the way to calculate balance.

3 vs 0 is not the same as 5 vs 2. The former is far stronger than the latter.

Sorcerers and Tome Warlocks have many cantrips. That is a strength they have. Freely giving cantrips away will remove that strength.

[Willie the Duck]

The magical prodigy feat sort of explains the answer. It allows two cantrips, with the limitation that they come from the same class but also allows a first level spell once per day. All in all, they're about two thirds of a feat or so in value. Allowing them to be learned should cost something commensurate.

Do you perchance mean the Magic Initiate feat?

[Pex]

This is not the way to calculate balance.

3 vs 0 is not the same as 5 vs 2. The former is far stronger than the latter.

That is true. Think of it in gaining levels. Going from level 4 to level 5 is a major increase in PC power. Going from level 5 to level 6 is almost unnoticeable. Both instances you're gaining one level.


Sorcerers and Tome Warlocks have many cantrips. That is a strength they have. Freely giving cantrips away will remove that strength.

Anyone can multiclass or take a feat to get Cantrips. They're not difficult to come by if you want it. You pay the price of not leveling your main class or not taking an ASI or other feat. That doesn't take away from Sorcerers or Warlocks nor a reason not to do this. It is a good idea to value it to see if it works well or not. It's one Cantrip at the cost of not multiclassing or spend an ASI. It's also not a wand of limited charges per day. Safest is to make it a wand that requires attunement and use your level for its effect if it matters. It can still be at will use as opposed to having charges, in which case it can take other forms like a ring or amulet or orb or whatever.

[sophontteks]

With the way money is in 5e. Buying essentially means free. This removes a strength casters have and gives it to martial class. That will effect balance. But it also robs the casters of a significant part of their identity, along with high elves and a few other races who were balanced around cantrips.


Anyone can multiclass or take a feat to get Cantrips. They're not difficult to come by if you want it. You pay the price of not leveling your main class or not taking an ASI or other feat. That doesn't take away from Sorcerers or Warlocks nor a reason not to do this. It is a good idea to value it to see if it works well or not. It's one Cantrip at the cost of not multiclassing or spend an ASI. It's also not a wand of limited charges per day. Safest is to make it a wand that requires attunement and use your level for its effect if it matters. It can still be at will use as opposed to having charges, in which case it can take other forms like a ring or amulet or orb or whatever.
That's the point here. We are removing the price.

[Kane0]

Give it a go and let us know!

I really don't think free access to a cantrip (or even a handful of cantrips) is going to majorly unbalance your game. At least not any more so than magic items and the like. Worst cast scenario is that everybody can deal with a variety of threats with non-weapon damage plus neat riders and a bundle of utility effects. It will feel really out of place in a low magic world, but mid to high magic settings will barely bat an eye.

[ad_hoc]

Worst cast scenario

That was pretty good.

[dreast]

Do you perchance mean the Magic Initiate feat?

That’s the one. Shows me right for trying from memory!

As far as power for money goes, I’d say the best vehicle would be an attunement-required magic item that lets you cast a cantrip at will, which should be adjudicated a rarity based on impact. They should always have an attunement requirement, since it’s basically a class power on a stick. Once you have the rarity, you can use that to guide balance decisions. Some examples I’d let into my games:

Staff of Light: common, attunement required. The wielder of this blessed quarterstaff may cast the light cantrip at will, targeting only the staff.

As a common magic weapon, the power of this item would come from the fact that it does full damage to a lot of things, not the light-switch on it. Still flavorful and highly useful even to the end-game.

Nature’s Wrath: very rare, attunement required. The wielder of this magic club may cast shillelagh at will, targeting only the club. Wisdom is used as the casting ability for this spell.

Powerful for clerics and monks, about a +3 magic weapon, but only for a small set of players. Hence, not quite legendary.

Warmage’s Gauntlets: legendary, attunement required. The wielder of these gloves may cast booming blade at will.

Rogues would kill for these, but they’re great for anyone without the cantrip and without extra attacks (and some with!). Hence, legendary.

The more combat-style defining the cantrip, the higher the rarity. So that would be my guidance.

[Tetrasodium]

ranged attack cantrips like firebolt/ray of frost in the form of a wand using caster stats & chaeracter level or xbow shaped wand using dex & character level? not a big deal as long as you stay away from eldritch blast. Cantrips that require a save?... things start getting questionable because they are more likely to have interesting effects included.

xbows with ray of frost/firebolt using dex are somewhere between common to uncommon with no attunement in my game & it's not a big deal whatsoever since you cn't sneak attack, make multiple attacks, etc with a cantrip.

edit: thinking about cantrips like shigelele.booming blade/green flame blade/etc? get your head checked.

[Greywander]

I've come to the conclusion that a cantrip is roughly equal in value to a skill, similar to how backgrounds rank languages and tool proficiencies the same and allow you to swap out one for the other. I could see doing a similar thing with skills and cantrips, letting you trade a skill from your background for a cantrip. I could also see allowing a player to spend downtime learning a new skill or cantrip.

RAW provides two different standards for learning new tool proficiencies or languages. PHB (page 187) requires 250 days and 1 gp per day (250 gp total), as well as requiring a skilled trainer. Xanathar's (page 134) requires a number of workweeks equal to 10 - your INT mod, and costs 25 gp per week (min of 5 weeks/125 gp, max of 10 weeks/250 gp).

As for skills, surprisingly there actually are rules for learning new skills. They're found in the DMG (page 231), and seems to follow the same guidelines as above. The major difference seems to be that skill training is a quest reward, i.e. you can't just buy it, you need to earn it. Also, the same rules let you train for a feat instead, which is mechanically much stronger (get the Skilled feat and it's literally 3x as strong), but I think it is the DM, not the player, who chooses what benefit the PC gets from the training.

If we're going to homebrew learning cantrips (and skills) during downtime, I'd say use the same rules for training from Xanathar's, but make it a quest or downtime activity to find a trainer. Let me cobble together various downtime activities to create a homebrew activity for finding a trainer.

Finding a trainer to teach you a new skill or cantrip

To find a trainer, you can spend at least 25 gp per workweek while you search. At the end of each work week, you make three checks, gaining a +1 bonus to one check for each extra 25 gp you spent during that workweek. The three checks are:

Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion for sorcerer/warlock/wizard, bard, druid, and cleric cantrips, respectively, or the skill you wish to learn. This represents seeking out and building connections with experts in that field.

Persuasion, which represents convincing the people you talk to to connect you with someone else who will lead you closer toward your goal.

Investigation, as you process the information and clues you've gained to find a suitable trainer.

The DC is 5 + 2d10, and the DC is generated separately for each check. You must pass all three checks to find a trainer, but if you only pass one or two of the checks you gain a +1 bonus per success on all checks during subsequent weeks as long as they are consecutive. If you take a break from your search, you lose any accumulated bonuses. Once you find a trainer, they may require you to perform a task for them, give them a rare item, or pay them a large fee up front for their services, in addition to the normal training costs.

[Unoriginal]

That just mean everyone who want to attack will pick up Eldritch Blast. At no real cost.

[Tetrasodium]

That just mean everyone who want to attack will pick up Eldritch Blast. At no real cost.

That''s why I exclude it ;)

[Asmotherion]

Well, there is a reason this is a no-go.

In a game were Cantrips are At-Will, they are not simply the lowest of the spell levels, but also a very efficient form of Magic.

Sure, you can have a Cantrip Scroll, but as soon as the Wizard tryes to copy that into his spellbook, explain to him that the notations are not in a form he understand and be done with it.

Overall, I believe if you want cantrips, you should invest in a class that gives them. That's how things work.

[Willie the Duck]

That''s why I exclude it ;)

Honestly, there are a few cantrips which are class features in disguise (Eldritch Blast, Shillelagh) or attempts at saving otherwise failed designs (a poor way to say it, but I'm pretty sure Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade exist solely to resuscitate a mountain dwarf wizard or fighter1/wizard or the like). These really should be considered separately when making decisions like these (in other words, maybe allow other cantrips, but not these, etc.).

That said, gold has too few uses in 5e and cantrips are as valuable as most other types of class feature. Include buying them only if you can also pay for skills, or the like.

[Vogie]

I could see you delineate between learnable cantrips and non-learnable. For example, making the case that warlock & sorcerer cantrips can't be learned from those classes because of the core conceit is that they are either innate (sorc) or given via a Patron (Warlock). Wizard, druid and Cleric cantrips, on the other hand, are gifted and/or learned.

To make things more balanced, I'd rather give non-attunement magic, slotless items & trinkets that give a cantrip effect, rather than a non-caster class just learning it (outside of the Magic Initiate feat).

[Aaron Underhand]

I've come to the conclusion that a cantrip is roughly equal in value to a skill, similar to how backgrounds rank languages and tool proficiencies the same and allow you to swap out one for the other. I could see doing a similar thing with skills and cantrips, letting you trade a skill from your background for a cantrip. I could also see allowing a player to spend downtime learning a new skill or cantrip.


I would disagree. A Cantrip is worth much more than a skill, especially those that scale with character level.

Given a choice at character design I would be trading cantrips for skills in a major way, even if I couldn't go outside my starting class.

If I could get it - every character would benefit from Eldritch Blast. I'd add Minor illusion, Mage hand, yes. Shillelagh (magical weapon at 1st level) yes. Booming Blade and Green Flame blade, yes.

If downtime allowed learning skills and cantrips I would be starting very cantrip heavy.

[rmnimoc]

I really don't see this as a problem. Sure, everyone has cantrips now and sure everyone has eldritch blast now, but that really doesn't change anything. No one will take the magic initiate feat anymore, but no one really took it for power, they took it for flavor. Also, to the people going on about cantrips being class features and depriving those classes of them... seriously? It doesn't matter if you know eldritch blast, you'll never be able to use it like a warlock without being one. Eldritch Blast isn't a class feature, it's a cantrip. A powerful one, sure, but still just a cantrip. Shillelagh being a class feature? Seriously? That's a joke right? It's a good cantrip, especially for fighters or monks, but it's not a class feature. Oh god, they can use WIS to hit, the world as we know it is over.

Seriously, this is so far from a big deal. Sorcerers aren't good because they have lots of cantrips, they're good because they've got metamagic. I've dmed in 5e for a while now, played sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, and clerics, and until you pointed it out I'd completely forgotten that sorcerers and warlocks have more cantrips. That's how completely and utterly unimportant that is.

Literally the only major change this would probably make at my table is make races other than variant human more common, since you don't have to take magic initiate to get little bits of magic.

Personally I think I'm going to start using Greywander's idea at my table.

[Willie the Duck]

Sure, everyone has cantrips now and sure everyone has eldritch blast now, but that really doesn't change anything. No one will take the magic initiate feat anymore, but no one really took it for power, they took it for flavor.

Really, because the reasons I've seen people taking magic initiate for has been 1) rangers or non-nature domain clerics trying to get shillelagh, 2) bards picking up eldritch blast, 3) dex-less fighters/paladins picking up a ranged cantrip with a mental stat they have a high score in, and 4) characters with a single attack but a desire to do some melee picking up booming blade.


Also, to the people going on about cantrips being class features and depriving those classes of them... seriously? It doesn't matter if you know eldritch blast, you'll never be able to use it like a warlock without being one. Eldritch Blast isn't a class feature, it's a cantrip. A powerful one, sure, but still just a cantrip. Shillelagh being a class feature? Seriously? That's a joke right? It's a good cantrip, especially for fighters or monks, but it's not a class feature. Oh god, they can use WIS to hit, the world as we know it is over.

There is no one here catastrophizing. You are inventing that out of whole cloth. If your argument can't convince others without pretending that the opposing viewpoint is losing their minds, then your argument is insufficient. Throwing a bunch of 'seriously?'s and 'this is a joke, right?' does not actually improve your argument in any functional way. Your audience is smarter than that.

Regardless. Cantrips are class (or race, or feat) features. Giving them away fundamentally changes the game (in particular, disincentivizing selecting high elves, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, etc.). The same would be the case if you allowed people to buy skills. Or similar.


Seriously, this is so far from a big deal. Sorcerers aren't good because they have lots of cantrips, they're good because they've got metamagic. I've dmed in 5e for a while now, played sorcerers, warlocks, wizards, and clerics, and until you pointed it out I'd completely forgotten that sorcerers and warlocks have more cantrips. That's how completely and utterly unimportant that is.

Sorcerers still don't have shillelagh, or guidance. Bards don't have eldritch blast (of flame bolt, or any other damage cantrip other than vicious mockery, a serious concern for their turns-not-spent-casting-a-spell). Barbarians, most fighters/rogues, etc., don't have any, and have to go to significant lengths to get them.

The issue isn't just having multiple cantrips (agreed, the 4th or 5th cantrip a sorcerer has, from the sorcerer list, is hardly game breaking, but that is very far away from the points people have been bringing up).

[JNAProductions]

I would disagree. A Cantrip is worth much more than a skill, especially those that scale with character level.

Given a choice at character design I would be trading cantrips for skills in a major way, even if I couldn't go outside my starting class.

If I could get it - every character would benefit from Eldritch Blast. I'd add Minor illusion, Mage hand, yes. Shillelagh (magical weapon at 1st level) yes. Booming Blade and Green Flame blade, yes.

If downtime allowed learning skills and cantrips I would be starting very cantrip heavy.

Skills scale with level too.

And really? Your DM must never use skills-mine does all the time. A cantrip would be nice, but NOT worth trading a skill.

[Sigreid]

There was a discussion like this a few months ago. I do think it would be a big kick up in power to let the casters basically have all of their cantrips, eventually. I think it would be fairly balanced to treat them like any other prepared spell. So, maybe your level 1 wizard has been lucky and has all the wizard cantrips in his book, but he can only keep 3 in his head at a time.

This also matches up pretty well with how spell mastery works.

[sophontteks]

Skills scale with level too.

And really? Your DM must never use skills-mine does all the time. A cantrip would be nice, but NOT worth trading a skill.
Generally I use fluff cantrips to give advantage on a skill roll. Advantage is roughly +5, so its easily keeping up with profeciency. Meanwhile Guidance pretty much gives profeciency in every skill that isn't time-sensitive. And you can give it to your friends. I would trade that for one skill profeciency in a heartbeat.

Really, if you were given the option to trade a profeciency for a cantrip I think most people would take a free cantrip. Most cantrips are useful, some are crazy good.

[rmnimoc]

Really, because the reasons I've seen people taking magic initiate for has been 1) rangers or non-nature domain clerics trying to get shillelagh, 2) bards picking up eldritch blast, 3) dex-less fighters/paladins picking up a ranged cantrip with a mental stat they have a high score in, and 4) characters with a single attack but a desire to do some melee picking up booming blade.

I haven't seen that personally. The only times I've seen someone pick up magic initiate was for totally benign things like prestidigitation, mending, thaumaturgy, guidance, and stuff that serves more for roleplaying than combat. I suppose your mileage may vary on that one.


There is no one here catastrophizing. You are inventing that out of whole cloth. If your argument can't convince others without pretending that the opposing viewpoint is losing their minds, then your argument is insufficient. Throwing a bunch of 'seriously?'s and 'this is a joke, right?' does not actually improve your argument in any functional way. Your audience is smarter than that.

Regardless. Cantrips are class (or race, or feat) features. Giving them away fundamentally changes the game (in particular, disincentivizing selecting high elves, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, etc.). The same would be the case if you allowed people to buy skills. Or similar.


Whole cloth? This entire thread is about whether or not this is broken. If it's broken, then its inclusion ruins the game and is an event that causes a sudden loss in value. It's literally a catastrophe by the definition of that word. That aside, "The world as we know it is over" was a joke to point out how absurd the idea that it would break the game is. Some things get a little better and some things get a little worse, but ultimately the change is incredibly minor. 'Fundamentally changes' is a pretty major thing to be throwing around for something like that. I'd even argue that removing eldritch knight, arcane trickster, and high elves entirely don't even fundamentally change the game, though it'd change it by a whole lot more than adding buyable cantrips.

The cantrips themselves are such a minor part of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster that I really don't see how this disincentivizes their use at all. I've never seen someone go Eldritch Knight for cantrips, they take it for how it lets them by a magic knight, blending together being a fighter with the casting of a wizard. It's not the cantrips that do it, it's the first, second, third, and fourth level spells. It's the War magic, eldritch strikes, and weapon bond. It's the same kind of thing for Arcane Trickster. I won't argue that it doesn't disincentivize High Elves though, cause it does.

I'll admit that I could have been quite a bit more tactful. I was kind of an ass about it. As I see it, Spellcasting is a class feature. Wildshape is a class feature. Invocations are a class feature. Class features are major things. It seemed to me like you were bringing up individual spells, cantrips at that, as though they were major things on par with Extra Attack, Rage, or something like that. I legitimately didn't think you were being serious.


Sorcerers still don't have shillelagh, or guidance. Bards don't have eldritch blast (of flame bolt, or any other damage cantrip other than vicious mockery, a serious concern for their turns-not-spent-casting-a-spell). Barbarians, most fighters/rogues, etc., don't have any, and have to go to significant lengths to get them.

Yes, and the effects of changing that are the point of this thread, right? I'm not really sure what you're saying there.



The issue isn't just having multiple cantrips (agreed, the 4th or 5th cantrip a sorcerer has, from the sorcerer list, is hardly game breaking, but that is very far away from the points people have been bringing up).

That was in response to Ad-Hoc's post about how having multiple cantrips is a strength of sorcerers and warlocks and letting people have more cantrips removes that strength.

[sophontteks]

In gaming terms "Broken" means that its unbalanced. It is slang. It doesn't mean it makes the game unplayable.

If a change makes the alternatives bad, its broken. Well, the alternatives are worthless, so, it is broken.
It makes free cantrips classes start with worthless.
It makes racial cantrips worthless.
And it makes feats related to gaining cantrips worthless.

That breaks balance. In gaming terms its broken.

[Greywander]

I would disagree. A Cantrip is worth much more than a skill, especially those that scale with character level.

Given a choice at character design I would be trading cantrips for skills in a major way, even if I couldn't go outside my starting class.

If I could get it - every character would benefit from Eldritch Blast. I'd add Minor illusion, Mage hand, yes. Shillelagh (magical weapon at 1st level) yes. Booming Blade and Green Flame blade, yes.

If downtime allowed learning skills and cantrips I would be starting very cantrip heavy.
Eldritch Blast is severely over rated. Sure, I'll concede that it is "the best" attack cantrip, but it's really not that much better than the other options available to you. The benefits of EB are that it deals force damage, which will only ever matter when you encounter a monster that is resistant to whatever other cantrip you might have taken instead, in the mean time it deals the same damage as Fire Bolt, and that you can split the beams, which is helpful for mopping up weak enemies but not for dealing with stronger enemies, and weak enemies shouldn't pose much of a threat anyway, and if they did then something like Sword Burst or Word of Radiance would work better.

Eldritch Blast is good, the best, even, but that's like saying the rapier or the longsword are the best one-handed melee weapons; it only matters if you want to use DEX (rapier) or two-hand the weapon (longsword), but if you're a STR-based sword-and-board fighter, a rapier or longsword is no better than a flail, battleaxe, morning star, or any of the other 1d8 one-handed weapon. You could say the greatsword is the best two-handed melee weapon, until you decide you want something with reach. I can easily see someone taking a damage cantrip other than EB because they want some other benefit. Ray of Frost slows enemies down, Vicious Mockery gives them disadvantage, Chill Touch prevents them from healing. Heck, I'm playing a character with warlock levels right now, and I probably won't even get EB.

Shillelagh is also over rated. It's good for WIS based casters who can't wild shape into something with teeth and claws and multiattack. So it's good for clerics, basically. Magic weapons don't do anything special until you're fighting a monster that is resistant or immune to non-magical weapons, which isn't going to happen at 1st level. It's more valuable if magic items are rare, but an attack cantrip will also get around resistance to non-magical weapons.

It's not that EB or Shillelagh don't have their uses, or that they're not good at what they do. But they're not so good that you would never not take them when you could get a different cantrip instead.

I'll give you Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Booming Blade, and Green-Flame Blade, as well as adding in Prestidigitation, Guidance, and Mending. I love me some utility cantrips, and the Blade cantrips are too good for melee classes without Extra Attack.

[Asmotherion]

Eldritch Blast is severely over rated. Sure, I'll concede that it is "the best" attack cantrip, but it's really not that much better than the other options available to you. The benefits of EB are that it deals force damage, which will only ever matter when you encounter a monster that is resistant to whatever other cantrip you might have taken instead, in the mean time it deals the same damage as Fire Bolt, and that you can split the beams, which is helpful for mopping up weak enemies but not for dealing with stronger enemies, and weak enemies shouldn't pose much of a threat anyway, and if they did then something like Sword Burst or Word of Radiance would work better.

Eldritch Blast is good, the best, even, but that's like saying the rapier or the longsword are the best one-handed melee weapons; it only matters if you want to use DEX (rapier) or two-hand the weapon (longsword), but if you're a STR-based sword-and-board fighter, a rapier or longsword is no better than a flail, battleaxe, morning star, or any of the other 1d8 one-handed weapon. You could say the greatsword is the best two-handed melee weapon, until you decide you want something with reach. I can easily see someone taking a damage cantrip other than EB because they want some other benefit. Ray of Frost slows enemies down, Vicious Mockery gives them disadvantage, Chill Touch prevents them from healing. Heck, I'm playing a character with warlock levels right now, and I probably won't even get EB.

Shillelagh is also over rated. It's good for WIS based casters who can't wild shape into something with teeth and claws and multiattack. So it's good for clerics, basically. Magic weapons don't do anything special until you're fighting a monster that is resistant or immune to non-magical weapons, which isn't going to happen at 1st level. It's more valuable if magic items are rare, but an attack cantrip will also get around resistance to non-magical weapons.

It's not that EB or Shillelagh don't have their uses, or that they're not good at what they do. But they're not so good that you would never not take them when you could get a different cantrip instead.

I'll give you Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Booming Blade, and Green-Flame Blade, as well as adding in Prestidigitation, Guidance, and Mending. I love me some utility cantrips, and the Blade cantrips are too good for melee classes without Extra Attack.

Is money over-rated? Or freedom of thought? In relative terms I can rant that something is "over-rated" all I want, but you're not giving any strong point as to "in relation to what exactly Eldritch Blast is Over-Rated".

I can't agree with your point. Eldritch Blast is probably the Best and most Wanted Cantrip in the Game for a good Reason: It's an Omni-Weapon. It Deals At-Will Ranged Damage that is resisted by ALMOST nothing.

The thing with it is that, beyond the fact it's very solid on it's own right, it also has solid supporting Mechanics (Hex) you can grab with it, either by Diping Warlock, or just as easy through Magic Initiate, for even more Damage. And, at the cost of only a couple Warlock Levels, you can stack your Cha modifier to it's Damage with Agonising Blast.

So, practically it is a Weapon, and I do believe it's a bit unfair that the Fighter's Extra Attacks don't Scale outside of class levels, but hey, if it aren't broken, don't fix it.

Now, there are other cantrips that are just as good, but no other attack cantrip can really compete with it's effectiveness.

[Unoriginal]

Is money over-rated? Or freedom of thought? In relative terms I can rant that something is "over-rated" all I want, but you're not giving any strong point as to "in relation to what exactly Eldritch Blast is Over-Rated".

I can't agree with your point. Eldritch Blast is probably the Best and most Wanted Cantrip in the Game for a good Reason: It's an Omni-Weapon. It Deals At-Will Ranged Damage that is resisted by ALMOST nothing.

The thing with it is that, beyond the fact it's very solid on it's own right, it also has solid supporting Mechanics (Hex) you can grab with it, either by Diping Warlock, or just as easy through Magic Initiate, for even more Damage. And, at the cost of only a couple Warlock Levels, you can stack your Cha modifier to it's Damage with Agonising Blast.

So, practically it is a Weapon, and I do believe it's a bit unfair that the Fighter's Extra Attacks don't Scale outside of class levels, but hey, if it aren't broken, don't fix it.

Now, there are other cantrips that are just as good, but no other attack cantrip can really compete with it's effectiveness.

"Everyone can have it by taking levels or a feat" isn't the same as "everyone can have it by spending money".

[Greywander]

Is money over-rated? Or freedom of thought? In relative terms I can rant that something is "over-rated" all I want, but you're not giving any strong point as to "in relation to what exactly Eldritch Blast is Over-Rated".

I can't agree with your point. Eldritch Blast is probably the Best and most Wanted Cantrip in the Game for a good Reason: It's an Omni-Weapon. It Deals At-Will Ranged Damage that is resisted by ALMOST nothing.

The thing with it is that, beyond the fact it's very solid on it's own right, it also has solid supporting Mechanics (Hex) you can grab with it, either by Diping Warlock, or just as easy through Magic Initiate, for even more Damage. And, at the cost of only a couple Warlock Levels, you can stack your Cha modifier to it's Damage with Agonising Blast.

So, practically it is a Weapon, and I do believe it's a bit unfair that the Fighter's Extra Attacks don't Scale outside of class levels, but hey, if it aren't broken, don't fix it.

Now, there are other cantrips that are just as good, but no other attack cantrip can really compete with it's effectiveness.
Which is why it's the best. But it's not like it blows all other cantrips out of the water. Take one caster with EB and one with Fire Bolt, and some 90% of the time they'll perform at exactly the same level. That's pretty competitive.

Another point to consider is that cantrips don't deal great damage; that's why the warlock gets things like Agonizing Blast. A martial class with EB will prefer to use their weapon over EB whenever they can. Caster classes almost always have something better to do (usually support or control), and if they do need to deal damage, they'll toss out a leveled spell like Fireball. This is why I would actually rate Vicious Mockery higher than EB, not because it does good damage (it doesn't), but because it's a nice, spammable support spell. The damage is just a bonus.

Or consider Chill Touch. The damage is a bit worse than EB, but not much. Necrotic isn't as good as force, but it's still decent. Some 95% of the time (maybe more), Chill Touch is just a mediocre damage cantrip, but that other 5% of the time when its rider comes in to play, it will drastically shift the fight in your favor, especially against enemies with regeneration.

If you want to be a damage dealer using EB, you need to get Agonizing Blast. You don't necessarily need to go full warlock, but multiplying your damage with all-day short rest Hex and adding control with Repelling Blast will help to make you something more than just a subpar longbow fighter. Otherwise, EB by itself is only slightly better than other damage cantrips, which isn't saying much. Most of the time, it's simply not worth jumping through the hoops to get if you're not already a warlock.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I'm unsure about buying them. I'm adding a caveat to the common items from Xanathar's like the Darkshard amulet. (once you've used this ability ten times on the same spell, that spell is added to your list of available cantrips.) That way it's possible to get new ones from your own list but it takes time and some practice in game. When downtime comes I'll allow them to pick one and add it to their list.

[Tanarii]

Definitely not broken. It should cost 5 days of downtime, a DC 10 Cha (Persuasion) check, and 100 +1d6x10 gp to buy each use. As a scroll. (Ref: XtgE)

[Greywander]

A thought occurs to me. It's been suggested that perhaps cantrips need to be "prepared" like normal spells do, so you may "know" a lot of cantrips, but that's not the same as being able to cast all of them any time you want. So, if you could learn more cantrips via training (or copying them into your spellbook, if that is allowed), you might need to select a limited number each long (or short?) rest, and only those cantrips would be available to you.

How would you decide how many cantrips you can prepare at once, though? Well, you could just sum up your INT, WIS, and CHA mods (ignoring negative mods). This means a max of 15, but more realistically 7 or 8.

Personally, I don't care for using such a limitation, but it may appeal to some people.

[Pope Scarface]

I really do not understand how 'there really isn't much to spend gold on in 5E' translates into 'anything that costs gold is basically free.'

I see the way that they removed needing to have a certain 'wealth-by-level' in order to not suck and die as an opportunity as a DM to stop handing out unrealistic amounts of gold. I hated that in 3E my 1-20 campaigns had to include hundreds of thousands of gold pieces worth of treasure for my PCs not to die.

Sure, there is still a lot of gold in the random treasure table, but that isn't any more of a 'rule' than the random encounter tables are.


So Eldritch Blast specifically is apparently broken because virtually no monsters resist force damage?

Edit - So not going to go into my houserules too extensively, but for those of you that feel the main balance issue, or one of the big ones, is non-casters taking attack spell cantrips, how would it change that if you don't get your proficiency bonus with cantrips not from your own spell list?

[Unoriginal]

I really do not understand how 'there really isn't much to spend gold on in 5E' translates into 'anything that costs gold is basically free.'

I see the way that they removed needing to have a certain 'wealth-by-level' in order to not suck and die as an opportunity as a DM to stop handing out unrealistic amounts of gold. I hated that in 3E my 1-20 campaigns had to include hundreds of thousands of gold pieces worth of treasure for my PCs not to die.

Sure, there is still a lot of gold in the random treasure table, but that isn't any more of a 'rule' than the random encounter tables are.


So Eldritch Blast specifically is apparently broken because virtually no monsters resist force damage?

Edit - So not going to go into my houserules too extensively, but for those of you that feel the main balance issue, or one of the big ones, is non-casters taking attack spell cantrips, how would it change that if you don't get your proficiency bonus with cantrips not from your own spell list?

Look, spending gold doesn't mean it's for free", just way too cheap compared to the investment levels or Feats are.

You could spend gold on magic items, but they don't really give you at will powers which cannot be taken from you, unlike cantrips.

Eldritch Blast in particular is powerful because it's a Warlock-exclusive cantrip which deals more damage than other cantrips, with good range and great scaling. Giving access to it to other classes without level or feat investment is like giving access to Sneak Attack without level or feat investment.

Sure, a Boon should be great, so it'd work to do that as a Boon. But for gold?

[sophontteks]

I really do not understand how 'there really isn't much to spend gold on in 5E' translates into 'anything that costs gold is basically free.'

Because there isn't anything to spend gold on, gold doesn't have any value. Its just a hunk of metal. So when you spend gold, you aren't really losing anything. Its basically free.

Now of course when we create something that we can spend gold on, its value would increase. The idea for single-use cantrips would make gold worth something, but if the cantrips were permanent, the one-time cost would just relieve PCs of the burdon of carrying gold for a day. And there is the problem where if PCs gain better ways to gain gold as they continue leveling up, even the single-use ones wouldn't put a dent in it. Players could just buy all the scroll they can carry without cutting into their gold supply.

[Tanarii]

Players could just buy all the scroll they can carry without cutting into their gold supply.Assuming the DM is allowing buying magic items, it'd also take 5 days of downtime.

That runs into the same problem of time needing to be an important resource of course, not just gold.

If your murderhobo who only spends money on magic items also has infinite time, then you've got a problem.

Personally my experience is players tend to be perfectly willing to drop money on expensive daily living, top class travel accommodations, outright buying caravans and ships, property, or hiring thugs/mercs/raising armies. And of course buying influence, either indirectly through all that stuff, or directly. But that assumes the campaign / DM makes that stuff valuable. Or at least available.

[Unoriginal]

There are plenty of ways to spend gold, just few ways that improve the character mechanically.

Living like a King but without having to rule anything is generally considere one of the main perks of having lotsa money.

[Pope Scarface]

I see, so the 'gold has no value' perspective is coming from the assumption that PCs will continue to get lots and lots of gold like in 3rd edition days, but no longer need it as an assumed part of their ECL.

Since I won't be handing out gold like it's 3.5, I can safely disregard those concerns entirely. Thank you for the clarification.

[sophontteks]

I see, so the 'gold has no value' perspective is coming from the assumption that PCs will continue to get lots and lots of gold like in 3rd edition days, but no longer need it as an assumed part of their ECL.

Since I won't be handing out gold like it's 3.5, I can safely disregard those concerns entirely. Thank you for the clarification.
It depends. The way players progress the value of gold drops fast. If setting the cost of a cantrip to 100 gold is balanced at level 5, what happens at level 10 when suddenly 100 gold is pocket change? As players get stronger and gain more influence they get richer. Its hard to avoid this.

[Citan]

Well, there is a reason this is a no-go.

In a game were Cantrips are At-Will, they are not simply the lowest of the spell levels, but also a very efficient form of Magic.

Sure, you can have a Cantrip Scroll, but as soon as the Wizard tryes to copy that into his spellbook, explain to him that the notations are not in a form he understand and be done with it.

Overall, I believe if you want cantrips, you should invest in a class that gives them. That's how things work.
Hi all.

This sums it up the best imo. Cantrips are MUCH more potent than skills, imo, for a simple reason.
While ultimately the DM has the last word in whatever, with skills, it's always in his hands that everything resides.
With cantrips, several of them give the creative power to the player, to do things that DM could reasonably not oppose to.

Quick basic example, you're emprisoned, you've been searched and put naked. Now you want to leave (duh).
Keys are a few dozen feets away, readily apparent because guards are confident you are locked for good.

With skills, you could maybe search for something to pick lock with as a Sleight of Hand check (DM dependent, both in finding something and DC), or try and convince the guard to let you leave (even more DM dependent ^^ plus naked you're probably less convincing -probably not try Intimidation XD-). Or maybe, provided guard doesn't watch you, try to craft something and try a Dexterity check to catch keys with (like a rope of clothing).

Cantrips? Thaumaturgy (calling him out from another room) / Minor Illusion (loud volume outside -or close to it-, guard will probably go check, or maybe the image of something interesting for him, or maybe even create the image of a wall to give illusion you are not in cell anymore) / Prestidigitation (same kind of ideas) to distract the guard, or maybe Friends to help persuade him one way or another to let you out (yeah, he will be hostile afterwards, but do you really care in that instance? ^^).
Or even just spamming Thunderclap until he opens the door to tie you up (100 feet away, you are bound to startle his nerves and those of his colleagues nearby). Of course, that one may be bad for your health. ^^

Then a plain Mage Hand / Gust / Thorns Whip (DM dependent) to retrieve the keys, using Mold Earth to dig around if possible, using (DM dependent) Acid Splash / Frostbite+Firebolt to melt or break a bar.
If you got hand on some water and could observe in a precise enough manner the key of your cell, a double Shape Water (shape into key > freeze) *may* do too (very DM-dependent though: how hard would you consider the ice? It must be hard enough to sustain the pressure when revolving it into the barrel).


How unbalancing would it be to be able to learn additional cantrips beyond the number determined by your class?

What about being able to learn cantrips as a non-spellcasting class?

Cantrips are really powerful.
I wouldn't allow them to be bought if in your world wealth is generally not an issue.
However, I would certainly allow learning some as a reward, with or without some kind of special training beforehand.
Whatever class the character is of course. :)

Another simple way to manage it is to allow your players to grab Magic Initiate feat several times (but in the same class to keep some coherence). Simple and elegant. :)

Or, if you find it a bit too "heavy" for character building, make a custom feat that grants 3-4 cantrips at once, or a magic item that can only hold cantrips but can hold 1-2 of them to reuse as if character "knew" it.

[sophontteks]

Here are some links showing the power of some fluff cantrips in the right hands. These are amazing and I just thought it'd be a good time to share them. Credit to stealthscout and the community.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481560-Creative-Cantrips-Shape-Water
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480938-Creative-Cantrips-Mage-Hand
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486812-Creative-Cantrips-Control-Flames
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552131-Creative-Cantips-Druidcraft

Without these guides I wouldn't have really thought much of these cantrips, but thanks to them I built an entire character around shape water. Turns out the ability to freeze water is really strong. Who needs lockpicks when you can break every lock by expanding water inside it until it breaks.

[Tanarii]

Who needs lockpicks when you can break every lock by expanding water inside it until it breaks.
someone who cares about being able to open the thing, instead of risking breaking it in a way that permanently locks it. Someone who cares about re locking the thing after managing to break it in a way that opens it.

[sophontteks]

someone who cares about being able to open the thing, instead of risking breaking it in a way that permanently locks it. Someone who cares about re locking the thing after managing to break it in a way that opens it.
That was a rhetorical question.

[Unoriginal]

That was a rhetorical question.

And Tanarii showed why the point it argued didn't work.

Wrecking the inside of a lock doesn't open it.

Using a cantrip to destroy a lock is a legitimate tactic, though. But so is hitting it until it breaks, by those standards.

[sophontteks]

And Tanarii showed why the point it argued didn't work.
Wrecking the inside of a lock doesn't open it.
Using a cantrip to destroy a lock is a legitimate tactic, though. But so is hitting it until it breaks, by those standards.
Wrecking the inside of a lock does open it.
The power of ice freezing is far stronger then any strength check its just physics.

Hard to get the exact amount of force it produces, but I found that copper breaks at 3,000 PSI and expanding ice can produce somewhere between 25,000 and 114,000 psi (I have no education in physics so feel free to correct me.). Its just incredible, and the cantrip freezes water instantly, so the water doesn't escape.

[Unoriginal]

Wrecking the inside of a lock does open it.

No it does not? It can open it hits all the right places at the right pressure for each specific place, but otherwise you just got a blocked door with a lock that can't be open.




The power of ice freezing is far stronger then any strength check its just physics.

Yeah, no. Ice freezing always go for the path of least resistance, for starter, so if there is holes in your lock the ice will just go through them rather than being restricted by the walls/mechanism.

And ice freezing isn't that strong unless there is a lot of of or a lot of pressure.

[Pope Scarface]

I'm leaning towards incorporating learning new cantrips with gold/downtime, but the additional cantrips take an attunement slot per cantrip. Spellcasters can pick from their known cantrips and swap out with a long rest, but cantrips not from their own list have to take an attunement slot.