OOTS #1134 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[mhensley]

well, they're definitely not in Hell

[Rockphed]

I like it. :smallamused: Truly the reveal tickled all my funny bones.

[Lheticus]

My interest in Order of the Stick has shot all the way up to maximum now.

Would be a reeeeeal bad time to have schedule slip happen about now. Which in my mind means it probably will! >_<

Also, where is Durkon ACTUALLY, then? Some kind of meeting place for this kind of thing?

[jwhouk]

:0

Wow, Giant.

And WOW, Giant Thor!

[Peelee]

Also, where is Durkon ACTUALLY, then? Some kind of meeting place for this kind of thing?

Right outside Valhalla, I'd guess.

[Don Ohnic]

Full page Thor!

Splendid work.

[super dark33]

"I have a gourd with your name on it for some reason"

[Deuce]

Oh My Thor!

[Synesthesy]

I need a Thor wallpaper to put in my room asap.

[Fafnir13]

A quote from ye olde AVP game pops into my head: “Hey, it’s a boot!”

Quite the nifty reveal. Anyone else thinking we’re about to pop over to the rest of the Order? This seems like the kind of information that doesn’t get revealed until a more dramatic moment.

[JumboWheat01]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.

[Peelee]

Ok, I love longshot bets. Here's one why not? In addition to the infodump, Durkon will get a set of Thorforged armor and weaponry.

Of course, I'd also eat my own hat if that happened, but hey, fun longshot.

[Alaska Fan]

Thor looks sober, serious and focused. Almost god-like. This should be fun.

[Mhl7]

Did you noticed that Minra and Dukon are standing on Thor's boot?

Is the tower his leg?

EDIT: yes, the place they are in is totally Thor.

[One Step Two]

Praise Thor! That's no tower it's a tankard of beer!

Edit: Well, wishful thinking on my part, i put my foot in it to boot!

[drazen]

Ok, I love longshot bets. Here's one why not? In addition to the infodump, Durkon will get a set of Thorforged armor and weaponry.

Of course, I'd also eat my own hat if that happened, but hey, fun longshot.

Well, Durkon is the only armed member of the order to NOT receive a weapon upgrade (Roy's sword: starmetal; Elan got two new rapiers; Haley got a new bow in Greysky; Belkar got Tarquin's dagger; V is unarmed, but as a wizard, pretty much IS a weapon, and has leveled up many times).

Can Thor send him Mjolinir, assuming Durkon's heirloom hammer was left behind and destroyed in Girard's pyramid?

[Peelee]

Praise Thor! That's no tower it's a tankard of beer!

.....I'm all on board this theory.

Welp never mind, its significantly more awesome than that.

[Estelindis]

Did you noticed that Minra and Dukon are standing on Thor's boot?
Almost as if they had walked a mile on his shoe. :smallwink:

[Giscard76]

Oh god i love it all!

[Lathund]

Bamboozled. Totally believed they were walking on clouds.

[Dr.Zero]

So dwarfs souls either end up becoming Hel's slave or becoming dust mites running in the wool of Thor's boots? A sad fate, indeed!

(And wow, called by name by the boss! Durkon's self esteem must be as high as the sky!)

[Mhl7]

Almost as if they had walked a mile on his shoe. :smallwink:

Right! I missed that! :smallbiggrin:

[schmunzel]

Minrah : "Would you cast dreams forged in glitter ink aside so easily ??"


Great !!!

PLUS I didnt see the boot coming :P

sch

[Gift Jeraff]

Incoming infodump about the rifts? Also, I can't help but wonder if Durkon's confusion about who did what is hinting that he absorbed the Negative Energy spirit and it is now a subconscious part of his soul.

[Grey Pilgrim]

Oh that splash panel! I did not see it at first glance and almost fell off my chair when I noticed it. That's hilarious!

Edit: Also, first page, yay! Truly an improvement of my day that I needed :)

[Peelee]

Incoming infodump about the rifts?

Definitely, I'd say. Thor waited until Durkon mentioned the Snarl.

[Kashem]

Wow, great comic! Also, Kudos to those who predicted a direct run-in with Thor. I feel like somewhere in the next panel, Elan is going to shout "PLOT EXPOSITION!"

Also, man, the Summoned Proxies were a LOT SMALLER than the actual gods... Yikes.

[happycrow]

Holy crap. Is this how you earn a Prestige Class? Or how your God rips you a new one for accidentally trashing Gate after Gate?

[Jubal_Barca]

Magnificent :)

Also, yeah, info dump incoming I reckon - I wondered when and how we'd get a significant extra move-forward with the main cosmology of the plot before the end of this book.

[happycrow]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.

It definitely does.

[factotum]

Also, I can't help but wonder if Durkon's confusion about who did what is hinting that he absorbed the Negative Energy spirit and it is now a subconscious part of his soul.

He was just there for those events and has those memories, doesn't mean he absorbed anything from the vampire soul.

As for the strip, cool--hopefully we're about to get some Godlike info dropped in right now.

[Wolv90]

I want to see Durkon get all fan-girly, I really do! like'
:durkon:"Oh My You IT'S YOU!", "I can hardly breath, I don't know where to begin, I have all your trading cards, and ...HEY, I carry a hammer too!"

[Lord Torath]

"I have a gourd with your name on it for some reason" This cracked me up! Thanks! I needed that laugh!


Did you noticed that Minra and Dukon are standing on Thor's boot?No. no, I did not. Not until I read your post and went back to check.

Thanks, Giant! Love it!

[happycrow]

Oh, WAIT....

JumboWheat, I bet this has something to do with Durkon's utter lack of Knowledge: Religion investment.

[DeliaP]

There I was replying to the previous thread, and this happens! Kudo's to all that guessed that Thor (and/or Odin) would show up to give Durkon an info dump.....

Can't wait to hear it, although surely Thor is still constrained by the non-disclosure deal regarding the Snarl? (My failed guess: I was wondering if he would meet Kraagor, as a way to get around that constraint, except I also think Kraagor got unmade by the Snarl, so it couldn't be Kraagor.)

Also Minrah's narrative purpose was to provide Durkon with a dwarf to talk to about his attitude to getting raised.

And I guessed "I bet that's Thor" just before the second page, but to be honest, I guessed it was Thor's boot... I had to go back and look again before seeing that they were standing in the fur of his boot....

So very fitting that Durkon gets a personal meeting with his God - if anyone has earned it, he has!

[Evil Genius]

Quite the towering figure, that Thor guy.

[One Step Two]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

[Jubal_Barca]

I didn't think Thor sounded disappointed. More just generally concerned. I feel like this is the "seriously, dude, we need to talk, this armadillo's getting serious and I need you to save everyone's bacon" not the "seriously, dude, we need to talk, you done goofed up with this whole thing" kind of "seriously, dude, we need to talk".

[Peelee]

Can't wait to hear it, although surely Thor is still constrained by the non-disclosure deal regarding the Snarl?

Considering TDO wasn't constrained, I'd hazard a guess that it's not an NDA so much as a general information blackout.

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?
No.

[Crisis21]

You know, I think out of all the speculation of where Durkon and Minrah ended up 'on Thor's boot' wasn't one of the guesses.



"I have a gourd with your name on it for some reason"

Context please?



Edit: Anyone want to take a crack at figuring out how big Thor is if the distance between the edge of his boot and his leg is more than a mile?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I knew this would happen and I am still squealing in joy!

Also, just a cleric getting to talk to their deity in person? I love when that happens.

[Wolv90]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

I didn't until he said "Dude". Now I want a Pointbreak slipped in there for no reason.

[Keltest]

Ok, I love longshot bets. Here's one why not? In addition to the infodump, Durkon will get a set of Thorforged armor and weaponry.

Of course, I'd also eat my own hat if that happened, but hey, fun longshot.

Given that Thor had all his stuff forged by the dwarves, that seems... implausible.

[drazen]

You know, I think out of all the speculation of where Durkon and Minrah ended up 'on Thor's boot' wasn't one of the guesses.

Thor was so enormous, I missed Durkon and Minrah on his fuzzy boot the first couple times through. I guess scratch my theory of Mjolinir as a weapon upgrade, then, unless Thor can grant/cast "Shrink Item."

[pendell]

Considering TDO wasn't constrained, I'd hazard a guess that it's not an NDA so much as a general information blackout.

No.

Perhaps this is why Thor is "glad to hear you say that". He's under non-disclosure with respect to the Snarl, but if Durkon already knows, Thor can talk to him freely.
"Seriously dude, we need to talk" sounds like the sort of thing a manager says before calling you into her office. Worries me. I'd be outraged at the idea that Durkon had not earned Valhalla, given his utter faithfulness in life, subsequent death in battle, and overcoming a negative energy spirit by guile to finally stand in the anteroom of Valhalla -- except that at this point I have no expectation that the gods of OOTS will be fair. Since they can't surprise me by being petty and stupid, I can't be disappointed when they give a faithful servant something other than a proper reward.

But, in other news, that is a seriously lovely splash panel of Thor. Rich Burlew has outdone himself again :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fitzclowningham]

I think Thor's tone is because the Order don't really know what they're up against. They have a misconception regarding how the snarl/gates/ritual work that needs to be corrected before they have their showdown with Xykon and Redcloak. I say this mostly because I can't imagine why Thor would be disappointed with Durkon.

[Peelee]

Given that Thor had all his stuff forged by the dwarves, that seems... implausible.

That just means Durkon won't get Thor's stuff.:smalltongue:

[locksmith of lo]

there is no more apprpriate time for durkon to say "THOR'S NUTS!" than this instant.

[nabcif]

As for the strip, cool--hopefully we're about to get some Godlike info dropped in right now.

Deus ex machina! Well, deus anyway. Does the Mechane count for the machina part, even though I don't think we'll have Thor ex-ing it?

[gondrizzle]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

I didn't, until he said "dude," and now I kinda do.

[DaOldeWolf]

So, is Thor going to do the same as the Dark one? Good thinking.

[otakuryoga]

and down on the living plane Elan just gave his loudest dunh Dunh DUNH! yet

[Toper]

Ha! Wonderful splash page.

I really like how Thor is drawn. He's more richly detailed and shaded than the mortals, and maybe he had to be on a splash page, but also it really works to make him look like a special kind of being.

[RabidEel]

Good thing Durkon waited to bring up the Snarl until he'd walked around to the front of the boot. Because it would have been awkward if Thor had to twist around and address the back of his heel.


"I have a gourd with your name on it for some reason"

"Oh, I see, you wanted a mast deck sword!"

[xroads]

Wow! Well done. It took me a few moments to realize how literal the title was.

[DSCrankshaw]

Perhaps this is why Thor is "glad to hear you say that". He's under non-disclosure with respect to the Snarl, but if Durkon already knows, Thor can talk to him freely.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. What Thor said was a direct result of hearing Durkon say Snarl. Since Durkon brought it up, I'm guessing that allows Thor to address it. That sounds like one of Loki's bargains.

[SilverCacaobean]

[...] Also, I can't help but wonder if Durkon's confusion about who did what is hinting that he absorbed the Negative Energy spirit and it is now a subconscious part of his soul.

This actually seems quite likely.

Can't wait for the next comic! I'm afraid we'll cut to the order though.

[Resileaf]

Well
I did not see that coming.

Well played, Giant. Well played. "The tower is Thor's leg" is most definitely not something I would have seen coming.

[2D8HP]

"...dreams forged in glitter ink..."


So gonna use that.

Thanks Giant!

[xroads]

Are those buttons Thor's pants in panel 8? At first I thought they were rivets.

Then again, maybe they are rivets. Could be what it takes to armor a god. :smallbiggrin:

[Resileaf]

Also, calling it now, next page will involve the sentence "Thor's nuts! I can see Thor's nuts!"

[Kish]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.


It definitely does.
You're both weird.

[TheNecrocomicon]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.

I didn't think Thor sounded disappointed. More just generally concerned.
Out-of-universe, the purpose is probably simply to give us an "oh crap" cliffhanger to keep us hooked over the weekend waiting for the next strip.


Also Minrah's narrative purpose was to provide Durkon with a dwarf to talk to about his attitude to getting raised.
Not entirely. She's a foil to him as a cleric of Thor: veteran vs. rookie, or person-eager-for-resurrection vs. person-eager-for-Valhalla.


Also, calling it now, next page will involve the sentence "Thor's balls! I can see Thor's balls!"
Bookends? Considering that this book's very beginning was the not-so-dearly departed vampire yelling "THOR'S NUTS!" :smallbiggrin:

[runeghost]

Thor looks sober, serious and focused. Almost god-like. This should be fun.

Yet with a tinge of "like wise-beyond-his years surfer-dude, man" in his voice. Which would be an interesting take on Thor, if the Giant decides to go in that direction.

[hamishspence]

Looks as though there will be some important info revealed to Durkon over the next few strips.

[kenlund]

I know he has been depicted a few times as drunken and silly, but looks like he is ready to get down to business...

Praise Thor!

[KorvinStarmast]

Is this how you earn a Prestige Class? Or how your God rips you a new one for accidentally trashing Gate after Gate? I'll go with the second one.

Also Minrah's narrative purpose was to provide Durkon with a dwarf to talk to about his attitude to getting raised.
--snip--
So very fitting that Durkon gets a personal meeting with his God - if anyone has earned it, he has! Amen to both.

Considering TDO wasn't constrained, I'd hazard a guess that it's not an NDA so much as a general information blackout. We'll see.
Perhaps this is why Thor is "glad to hear you say that". Hadn't considered that, but makes sense.

I think Thor's tone is because the Order don't really know what they're up against. They have a misconception regarding how the snarl/gates/ritual work that needs to be corrected before they have their showdown with Xykon and Redcloak. I say this mostly because I can't imagine why Thor would be disappointed with Durkon. Agree with all of this.

Strip observations:
Durkon, yes I am going back which combines doin' your duty and I'm a Pa mixed together.
Minrah: You made it to heaven, why would you leave? Philosophical. Deep.
Thor: nicely drawn, and I love the scale of where they are on his boot.

Thank you Giant; even if we flash back to the Order, this was a great Durkon meets Thor in both set up and in execution. Love it.

[Throknor]

Well, I was right about the scale part at least.

I think Thor was waiting to see if Durkon was planning on going back to finish what was started and not necessarily the trigger word 'snarl'.

Not sure what he needs to share, but some thoughts

That Redcloak is the one who must be stopped
The truth about the snarl
The truth about MITD
The truth about the prophesy

Of course, narratively it's a good time to switch back to Roy and whatever Thor shares will be doled out in portions by Durkon when appropriate. If just to avoid the scale issues.

[hamishspence]

Yet with a tinge of "like wise-beyond-his years surfer-dude, man" in his voice.

Loki uses "Dude" as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Maybe it's a family thing?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Thor looks sober, serious and focused. Almost god-like.
I know, it's weird. Is Thor okay?



Can Thor send him Mjolinir, assuming Durkon's heirloom hammer was left behind and destroyed in Girard's pyramid?
Even if it doesn't come with some requirement of purity or raw power, I'm pretty sure Durkon's a little small to use Thor's own hammer. That said, He probably has a few mini-Mjolnirs to hand out to favored servants (or as party favors).



Holy crap. Is this how you earn a Prestige Class? Or how your God rips you a new one for accidentally trashing Gate after Gate?
"Tha first one were Elan, the second Miko, an' the third...ach, I guess I've earned part o' the blame for that one."



I didn't think Thor sounded disappointed. More just generally concerned. I feel like this is the "seriously, dude, we need to talk, this armadillo's getting serious and I need you to save everyone's bacon" not the "seriously, dude, we need to talk, you done goofed up with this whole thing" kind of "seriously, dude, we need to talk".
Agreed. The Snarl seems big enough to make even the silliest gods take things seriously. (Banjo aside, but he doesn't have any actual responsibility.)



Edit: Anyone want to take a crack at figuring out how big Thor is if the distance between the edge of his boot and his leg is more than a mile?
If I were going to do that, I'd try to measure size by comparing Thor's size to that of the little people visible on his boot in the last panel. (If I've learned anything from Game Theory, it's that pixel measurements are a great way to figure things out if you don't mind the comment section calling you a lazy idiot.) In fact...gimme a minute.
In the last panel, Durkon is 11 pixels tall. In D&D 3.5, a male dwarf is between 3'11" and 4'5" (47-53 in), with the average dwarf being 4'2" (50 in). This means one pixel is about 4.5 inches. By my measurement, the last panel is 1,069 pixels tall, which would be just over 4,800 inches or 400 feet tall. The top of Thor's head doesn't quite reach the top of the panel, but most of his boot is below the panel boundary, so it's probably fair to say Thor is roughly 400 feet tall.
For fun, let's contrast this with his size in strip #40 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html). In panel 1, the angel guy is about 40 pixels tall and Thor about 160. If the angel is roughly 5 feet tall, Thor is an order of magnitude smaller than in this comic. By contrast, Surtr is about 110 pixels tall compared to the 10-pixel innocent townsfolk, putting him around 400-600 feet tall (depending on the town's dominant race).
And finally, Hel in strip #1081 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html). In panel 3, the unlucky dwarf is about 40 pixels tall (it's tricky to measure, since he's kinda half-crushed under the boulder Hel has him carry for no particular reason). It's hard to tell where Hel's feet are, but she's probably about 210-220 pixels tall; meanwhile, Thrym is about 260 pixels tall. If the dwarf is about 50 inches, each pixel is 1.25 inches, meaning Hel is about 260-275 inches (21.5-23 feet) tall and Thrym is about 325 inches (27 feet) tall.
In short, the size of gods in OotS is about as consistent as anything in real-world mythology.

...What the heck. From the far edge of Thor's boot to where Durkon and Minrah are is about 100 pixels. If that's a mile, each pixel is about 52 feet and the dwarves are over 570 feet tall, while Thor is somewhere around 10.5 miles tall.

[Resileaf]

"Tha first one were Elan, the second Miko, an' the third...ach, I guess I've earned part o' the blame for that one."


Well technically, only Xykon, Redcloak and O-Chul know that Miko blew up the gate.

[vwnewt]

Wow. How many opportunities are here?

1) Size check on the Pantheon (If Durkon is 4'6, and comes from upper calf to knee, that approximates to 1/7 of lower leg = 1/14 leg = 45% total body height = 202 ft. tall for Thor. That's a VERY conservative ballpark figure. Actual size likely 10 - 20% more)

2) Does the fact that Durkon is aware of the gates and their "Purpose" free Thor from the no information to mortals mandate, and would sharing that information with Durkon break an agreement between Gods and therefore play into Hel's hands?

3) How many ranks in Knowledge(religion) is Durkon about to get, and what will that mean regarding Hilgya, Kudzu, and what's happening in the assembly hall with the remaining vampire(s) and the Order at rest?

4) Is Minrah coming back if called?

5) The events in Durkon's head don't seem to have been as one-sided as they appeared. What lasting effect are they going to have on Durkon going forward? I doubt we're looking at a Varsuvius-style arrangement where we occasionally get Greg for fixed periods, but there's going to be more to this than just a moment of doubt in the afterlife.

6) I love the idea of an Artifact of Thor (complementary to the Red Cloak) coming back with Durkon to help the crew stay on target.

As always, loving this update timetable. And aren't we glad Greg fount "Thor's Nuts!" as a suitable expletive for just such a moment as this?

[hamishspence]

I like the blur effect from Thor's loud voice. It's like when MitD raises its voice:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html

but more subtle.

[skim172]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

"Durkon, I'd like to you to join the Avengers."

[Peelee]

Looks as though there will be some important info revealed to Durkon over the next few strips.

The next few minutes, definitely. The next few strips, hopefully.

[Lord Torath]

Context please?"Just send a Masked Debt Gourd and be done with it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html). I need to go soak my feet." :smallbiggrin:

[Leirus]

It definitely does.

Whta I got from that was more along the lines of "you do not know half of the things you should about the whole Snarl situation".

[GreatWyrmGold]

2) Does the fact that Durkon is aware of the gates and their "Purpose" free Thor from the no information to mortals mandate, and would sharing that information with Durkon break an agreement between Gods and therefore play into Hel's hands?
Is there an official agreement between the gods not to let mortals know about the Gates? Probably not; it seems more like an informal gentleman's agreement, especially since they clearly have no problem letting mortals exposit to each other. And since the end of creation is imminent.


4) Is Minrah coming back if called?
Intentionally or no, Durkon took a good shot at guilting Minrah into going back if called.

[TheBertful]

Thor has ears!

Also, whoa

Also, what are the odds of Sigdi going against the ressurection of Durkon at first, if she were to be there when they attempt it, knowing somehow he went to Valhalla?

Also, any chances Durkon gets to meet his father there?

Also, whoa

[Rack]

Glad these were bundled, I was so sure it was Hel till I scrolled down. Would have been one MEAN cliffhangar.

[Peelee]

Addendum to my Durkon' New Gear longshot: he gonna get a cape.

[Felagund]

Seriously good stuff! Lately the Order of the Stick is awesometacular! Not just the speed but the quality and everything.
Thank you Giant for the entertainment!

[skim172]

There's been a bunch of foreshadowing that the Snarl is not exactly what the Order was told (e.g. Blackwing's vision of a planet in the rift). If the gods have a rule not to reveal the true nature of the Snarl to mortals, then this moment represents an opportunity for Thor to break that rule where the other gods might not know.

I expect we'll cut back the Order at this point, while Thor tells Durkon the secret off-panel. The Order still has to go and defeat the Exarch and the sinister machinations that Greg set in motion. Only after that's wrapped up will they be able to resurrect Durkon - at which point he'll open his eyes, look at his tearful friends, and say, "Guys - we are totally ****ed."

Alternatively, Thor is about to tell him that the Oracle's "posthumous" prophecy still hasn't been fulfilled and he's still going to be bringing destruction to the dwarven lands. With that in mind, is he sure he wants to be resurrected for the sake of his friends and child?

[faustin]

a) Read last vignette.
b) Start playing the Shadow of the Colossus battle theme in the computer.

[Vectner]

Why are there bolts on Thor's legs?

[Morquard]

Yey, I knew it! Thor, dude, you're awesome!

[RMS Oceanic]

Chinese wall successfully penetrated. Summon Plot Exposition!

Durkon intending to act exactly like I thought he would.

[warmachine]

Question is, does Durkon treat Thor with fear, awe or mere respect?

[facw]

You know, I think out of all the speculation of where Durkon and Minrah ended up 'on Thor's boot' wasn't one of the guesses.
I'm honestly surprised that no one seemed to have noticed. Everyone was on top of the fact that the "sky" was a weird color, but it seems like no one got to the final answer.

Someone looking at 1083 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html) to confirm this wasn't Hel's domain easily could have noticed a tower rising from white fluff with a blue-gray background, had they been in the right state of mind. Maybe not the most obvious thing, but normally there's at least one person who catches on to the obscure.

[hamishspence]

Why are there bolts on Thor's legs?

I would guess - because he's wearing plate armour and those things hold the front and back part of the greaves together.

[Pampukin]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

Yes I totally did, dreamy deep voiced bastard.

[happycrow]

You're both weird.

Well, yes. And? :)

[TheBertful]

About the possible reveal of Redcloak being the one to be stopped and not Xykon.

I personally think Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something(his body was destroyed by being flung at Dorukan's gate, so he might have learned a thing or two). And at some point, they are going to have a conflict, possibly with the phylactery as a bargaining chip.

Scenario 1: Xykon sees as bluff, kills Redcloak, loses to heroes/MiTD, thinks he will pop up at his fortress planet, does not, **** gets done and they're done for.

Scenario 2: Maybe Xykon does not know, performs a last ditch effort to finish the heroes, thinks he'll pop up in planet, Redcloak assumes and begins ritual with xykon's phylactery watching the betrayal happen.

Extra thought: I think, in some point, MiTD is going to die in order to save the heroes, or O-chul Stiffly-san. He might deserve to live, but I think he won't. Either that or he'll have some innate ressurection thingy. Or maybe he's like a God of some sort.

Looks like I'm shooting all directions here, so I'll stop.

[hroþila]

Thor is such a show-off. We know he doesn't need to be that big.

[Book Wombat]

Wow... Thor is colossal, maybe even bigger.

[Ironsmith]

And then there was a collective "OOoooooooooh..." from the readers.

About the title, though... wouldn't it be "a mile ON his shoes"? :smallbiggrin:

[gooddragon1]

Yep. That doesn't look like CR 70 to me. And that's what dispater is supposed to be according to this one thing I read describing the lords of hell.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TabletopGame/TheGatesOfHell

[hamishspence]

Wow... Thor is colossal, maybe even bigger.



Apparently deities max out at 1600 ft tall when using the Alter Size ability:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterSize


Yep. That doesn't look like CR 70 to me. And that's what dispater is supposed to be according to this one thing I read describing the lords of hell.

Dicefreaks' Guide To Hell is fanon - admittedly pretty good fanon.

The rules are not clear how much to add to CR for a deity's Divine Ranks. And OOTS Thor may differ some, from Deities & Demigods Thor.

[Skull the Troll]

Why are there bolts on Thor's legs?

THOR's NUTS!!!!

[TheTinyMan]

Yet with a tinge of "like wise-beyond-his years surfer-dude, man" in his voice. Which would be an interesting take on Thor, if the Giant decides to go in that direction.

I wasn't sure if I was thinking "surfer-dude" or "burned-out hippie." I think I like yours better. xD

[HalfTangible]

"Durkon, I am your father." and/or "Let's meet your father while we've got time."

... Probably going to be an infodump on the Snarl and the world within the rift, but if that is the case I'm going to say I called it.

[Stabbey]

Ha ha, fantastic reveal.

It'll be a long wait to see what Thor has to say. Because it'll almost certainly be saved to be the Wham episode at the conclusion of the book.

[Fish]

He wants to go back — to save the world, to do his duty. That is why they didn’t need just “a cleric,” but Durkon. Only Durkon.

Also:

I want to hear Thor say, “Well, that’s just your opinion, man.”

[Peelee]

He wants to go back — to save the world, to do his duty. That is why they didn’t need just “a cleric,” but Durkon. Only Durkon.

Also:

I want to hear Thor say, “Well, that’s just your opinion, man.”

I'm Thor. So that's what you call me. That, or His Thorness … Thorer … or El Thorderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing.

[Xianthe]

Y'know...I thought the texture on those "clouds" looked weird, but I just chalked it up to them maybe being the tops of storm clouds (given the duller "sky" color), that might be a bit more whipped up than fluffy.

Awesome reveal!

[Ironsmith]

I'm Thor. So that's what you call me. That, or His Thorness … Thorer … or El Thorderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing.

Ya can't really abbreviate a name like "Thor", not unless you try going down to single letters... and I'm not sure how the guy would look on being called "Big T".

[Viridian]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.

I couldn't disagree more. I would bet actual money that Thor is quite proud of Durkon. I'm pretty sure there's a rule that the gods can't talk about the Snarl to anyone on the mortal plane, which is why Thor needed to get a loyal, responsible, truly Good follower of his up to Valhalla so he can explain what is going on what what truly needs to be done. And if that follower then gets resurrected, hey, that's not Thor's fault, right?

Which is why Thor gave the prophecy in the first place. Yes, he risked it all by allowing Hel her High Priest, but it all worked out, eh? Eh?

(Yes, I know it hasn't all worked out yet, but it will. Probably.)

(And I just noticed that Thor didn't speak up until Durkon mentioned the Snarl, which I think bolsters my case.)

[Xianthe]

I couldn't disagree more. I would bet actual money that Thor is quite proud of Durkon. I'm pretty sure there's a rule that the gods can't talk about the Snarl to anyone on the mortal plane, which is why Thor needed to get a loyal, responsible, truly Good follower of his up to Valhalla so he can explain what is going on what what truly needs to be done. And if that follower then gets resurrected, hey, that's not Thor's fault, right?

Which is why Thor gave the prophecy in the first place. Yes, he risked it all by allowing Hel her High Priest, but it all worked out, eh? Eh?

(Yes, I know it hasn't all worked out yet, but it will. Probably.)

(And I just noticed that Thor didn't speak up until Durkon mentioned the Snarl, which I think bolsters my case.)

Except the prophecy was from Odin.

ETA: Not that I don't like the rest of the theory.

[Vingelot]

This is every cleric's top moment, meeting his god and hearing "dude, we need to talk". Alternatively, his worst nightmare.

[GrayDeath]

:0

Wow, Giant.

And WOW, Giant Thor!

My thoughts exactly! Cant wait now ^^


Definitely, I'd say. Thor waited until Durkon mentioned the Snarl.

Indeed. It seems Thor (or the Dude as he sounds in my head^^) is not quite as dumb as it would seem...


Really, the last half a dozen or so strips might have been the best in the whole comic, I cant say how much hype I am feeling right now, Giant!

[eilandesq]

Thor is such a show-off. We know he doesn't need to be that big.

True--Hel certainly wasn't that much bigger than the dwarven souls she was tormenting, and given the relative size of Tony the Planetar to Eugene, and of Thor's attending planetars to him, I think its a pretty good guess that Thor has chosen his size for a specific reason (or made Durkon and Minrah really small for a reason).

[ratfox]

Thor's boots!

[Oxenstierna]

Well who Thor that one coming? Mind you, a giant god is something I’ve seen beThor. Has Durkon done something wrong? Let’s hope he’s Thorgiven. I’ve out of further Thorts.

[Leewei]

Loki uses "Dude" as well:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Maybe it's a family thing?Another possible explanation is that it's the same entity saying it in both cases. Loki has certainly been actively scheming to save the world in recent times.

[Fish]

True--Hel certainly wasn't that much bigger than the dwarven souls she was tormenting, and given the relative size of Tony the Planetar to Eugene, and of Thor's attending planetars to him, I think its a pretty good guess that Thor has chosen his size for a specific reason (or made Durkon and Minrah really small for a reason).
Could it be a function of worshippers/power? they could scale by number of souls or something.

[HandofShadows]

GOOD GOD!

And Thor is one of the good ones. Hmm. I just realized that Thor is pulling a fast one here. The gods don't seem to want (can't?) to talk to mortals about the Gates, but Durkon is dead and therefore not a moral. Luck or is he smarter than he pretends to be? :smallconfused:

[Stabbey]

Here is Thor?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISzAPpUzLuA

[Windscion]

"...dreams forged in glitter ink..."

So gonna use that.

Thanks Giant!
Yeah, for me that's up there with "... smoking cigars wrapped in poorly-worded legal documents" (410)

[ProfLucario]

This comic truly and literally made me laugh out loud when I saw the last panel. PRAISE THOR!

[Viridian]

Except the prophecy was from Odin.

ETA: Not that I don't like the rest of the theory.

Ah! You're right! And since that involves another god, it explains why the whole plan feels like something Loki would come up with - because he probably did!

Thor: "I've got followers who are truly good and honorable!"
Loki: "I can come up with a plan to subvert the rules!"
Odin: "I'm allowed to give my followers visions of the future!"

"Together, we are...TEAM THIRD OPTION (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption)!!"

[Jasdoif]

This is every cleric's top moment, meeting his god and hearing "dude, we need to talk". Alternatively, his worst nightmare.Nah...the worst nightmare is more like "Durkon, what have you done?"

[Malfarian]

I just laughed as I said "Thor said dude".

[Dausuul]

I'm Thor. So that's what you call me. That, or His Thorness … Thorer … or El Thorderino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing.

Look, man, I've got certain information, all right? Certain things have come to light. And, you know, has it ever occurred to you that instead of, you know, running around smashing Gates, you know, given the nature of all this new s**t, this could be a lot more, uh, complex... I mean, it might not be such a simple, uh, you know?

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Now I want to see Durkon hanging out in fluffy clouds with Thor.

Well, not fluffy clouds, but works for me. :smallbiggrin:



Ok, I love longshot bets. Here's one why not? In addition to the infodump, Durkon will get a set of Thorforged armor and weaponry.

I like this. Doesn't seem a longshot to me, Thor is holding his hammer in a unusual way. As he's going to give it to someone.

Too big, you say? He's a deity, I'm sure he can shrink it to fit at will.


Can't wait to see what happens next.

[DaggerPen]

Oh maaaan. Looks like we're getting a Thor and Durkon scene after all! This is gonna rule.

[Kish]

I like this. Doesn't seem a longshot to me, Thor is holding his hammer in a unusual way. As he's going to give it to someone.
I don't think he's holding it at all. Hard to tell for sure with stick figure art, but it looks to me like it's hanging from his belt.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I don't think he's holding it at all. Hard to tell for sure with stick figure art, but it looks to me like it's hanging from his belt.

Maybe, but if it is hanging, then handle would be perpendicular to the "ground", no? I mean, it's a little angled, and that's why my first thought was that he was holding it.

Unless gravity is different in the afterlife, or whatever they are. :smallbiggrin:

[Whipwimble]

I haven't seen anyone mention this, although some have commented on the fantastic pace at which Oots is currently updating. I think that Giant was getting ahead of himself by some ways so that the narrative of this desperately important part of the comic is not broken, hence the relatively long hiatus before the current break neck update pace. So Giant is now able to release the strips at a pace which keeps the suspense going and provides added emotional whammy.

I mention this only because I think that if true it is another instance of Giant's phenomenal story telling talents.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think he's holding it at all. Hard to tell for sure with stick figure art, but it looks to me like it's hanging from his belt. That's how it appears to me.

As to a previous remark about bolts on Thor's legs/pants, they look to me to be rivets.
Panel 8.

On further review, enjoyed the use of shadows again in this strip, particularly on Thor in the last panel.

[PH7]

Between "Seriously, dude - we need to talk" and "Don't screw this up. No pressure, though", I must say I'm loving the theological statements made in this world.

[WindStruck]

There is only one comment that is appropriate in this situation...

"Thor's nuts!!"

[wumpus]

I like the blur effect from Thor's loud voice. It's like when MitD raises its voice:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html

but more subtle.

Partly more subtle because MitD blurs everything. Thor's voice doesn't blur the background (since it is Thor himself), nor Thor's own words. I completely missed it until you mentioned it.


Question is, does Durkon treat Thor with fear, awe or mere respect?

Durkon's fundamental nature centers around duty. He may well know who Thor is and be disappointed in him but that won't stop him from doing what a dwarf's gotta do.

[Slothboy]

Love that reveal! Durkon's either about to get some great stuff or he's going to be made an exarch of Thor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so the dwarves at least believe that resurrected dwarves must die with honor in their last death to qualify for Valhalla. I suppose we could wonder if they might be mistaken, but I don't think Thor will clarify that particular bit of theology since he does seem more interested in discussing the Snarl.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees.

[hamishspence]

Partly more subtle because MitD blurs everything. Thor's voice doesn't blur the background (since it is Thor himself), nor Thor's own words. I completely missed it until you mentioned it.


MiTD didn't blur the distant background either - though he did blur everything in the foreground.

[AutomatedTeller]

Did you noticed that Minra and Dukon are standing on Thor's boot?

Is the tower his leg?

EDIT: yes, the place they are in is totally Thor.

Holy carp!! I didn't see that until you pointed it out! Thor is huge today!!!

[Jasdoif]

Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees.But...they'll fall o_o

[ben-zayb]

Whoa. Whoa. WHOA!

My heart is just pounding so loud right now! Giant has written a great arc so far, but I haven't been this pumped for a while now. I'm riding this hype train all the way to the terminal!

Gods, it's freaking Thor... THOR!

[The_Weirdo]

But...they'll fall o_o

I'm sorry, what?

[SilverCacaobean]

I'm sorry, what?

They're on the fur of his boot. If he falls on his knees, they'll fall too.

[Chei]

I love how Minrah's confusion underscores just how broken that whole salvation vs. damnation system really is. To most dwarves, the thinking really must stop there - made it to Valhalla? You're golden! But Durkon sees past that now, and knows that it's what he does in life that matters, not how a god will reward or punish him for it after. Good man.

[Snails]

I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees. That's not how the relationships between deities and mortals (humans, dwarves, goblins) have ever been depicted in OoTS. Why would you expect that to start now?

And another point in the art: I viewed 1132-1134, and notice that the sky/background is consistently Thor's cape/shadow in all three strips as they walk toward the "tower" ... nice artistic touch. :smallsmile:

[SociopathFriend]

Purely for the sake of those who wonder- yes Thor is indeed over 100x taller than Durkon (seems somewhere in the vicinity of 107x) so he's easily 500 feet tall if Durkon is 5 foot.

I uh, I don't know if D&D has rating for 'creatures' that size.

[Messenger]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.
Do you mean the "father" (in this case, Thor) is disappointed in his "son", Durkon? Or the father is disappointed with himself and wants to talk to his son about it?

If the former, I'd disagree with you. The latter is my guess.

The best of Durkon, cleric of Thor, has been exemplary. The worst of Durkon, cleric of Thor, is understandable. That worst- blasphemy against his god- was the result of an utterly unfair thing being done to an innocent person.

Assuming that Thor is indeed Good- Lawful or Neutral- being in any way disappointed in Durkon would be, to be honest, a jerk move. For that matter, any part of Thor that got Durkon banished that did not acknowledge it to Durkon would be awful.

If Thor is indeed the Good deity he's supposed to be, I'm sure he'll want to talk to Durkon about it.

Remember when Soon Kim spoke to the dying Miko? First, Miko was a horrible person and was indeed divinely punished for it. Second, Soon had some pretty stern attitudes regarding the whole Snarl business. Third, Miko's act thwarted Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs' finishing off Xykon. Put them together, you'd think Soon would have chewed Miko out for it.

But Soon didn't. In fact- contrary to most expectations- he was so gentle with her.

If Soon could do that, why not a Good god?

---

Also, yeah, I agree Thor might also be trying to impart some important knowledge about the Snarl and Xykon to Durkon.

[vwnewt]

About the possible reveal of Redcloak being the one to be stopped and not Xykon.

I personally think Xykon knows Redcloak is up to something(his body was destroyed by being flung at Dorukan's gate, so he might have learned a thing or two). And at some point, they are going to have a conflict, possibly with the phylactery as a bargaining chip.

Scenario 1: Xykon sees as bluff, kills Redcloak, loses to heroes/MiTD, thinks he will pop up at his fortress planet, does not, **** gets done and they're done for.

Scenario 2: Maybe Xykon does not know, performs a last ditch effort to finish the heroes, thinks he'll pop up in planet, Redcloak assumes and begins ritual with xykon's phylactery watching the betrayal happen.

Extra thought: I think, in some point, MiTD is going to die in order to save the heroes, or O-chul Stiffly-san. He might deserve to live, but I think he won't. Either that or he'll have some innate ressurection thingy. Or maybe he's like a God of some sort.

Looks like I'm shooting all directions here, so I'll stop.

Where the Phylactery is, whether MitD is around when the ritual is started, whether Xykon understands the situation with the Ritual and the Gates, and when Redcloak restores his eye/spits in Xykon's seem like factors in what happens with respect to the Villainous storyline.

I suspect that there will also be some climactic confrontation around the location of the Phylactery, as I doubt that Xykon is unaware of where it is. There's too much at stake with that for him not to know or to make any assumptions around that.

MitD as martyr for the cause? Love the idea.

[Messenger]

That's not how the relationships between deities and mortals (humans, dwarves, goblins) have ever been depicted in OoTS. Why would you expect that to start now? Actually, that's what I expect Thor to do. He's a Good god. His cleric was an innocent kicked out of his homeland for no fault of his own.

And if even the Dark god of the goblinoids can be gentle to his people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), why can't Thor?

[FlawedParadigm]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23272850&postcount=66

Well, I've called at least half of it. ^_^

[hamishspence]

I uh, I don't know if D&D has rating for 'creatures' that size.

For standard 3.5 D&D, the scale stops at Colossal, for everything other than True Dragons, which get a "Colossal+" option (same size Space, but more damage with melee attacks, and longer-ranged breath weapon).

That said, super-sized Epic monsters get increased Space and reach (xixecals, for example, get a 50 ft Space and a 50 ft reach (they are over 100 ft tall)

They otherwise are the same as any other Colossal beastie.

So - a 600 ft Thor would probably have a 300 ft Space and Reach.

[Peelee]

I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos.

I was fully planning to yell out double or nothing but then I saw that you put it in your sigline. As much as I have a crippling addiction to fake gambling, I have a much greater ego. I ain't losing those quatloos.:cool:

[jwhouk]

Question is, does Durkon treat Thor with fear, awe or mere respect?

The answer, of course, is, "Yes."

[nolongeralurker]

At first I excitedly laughed a little as I thought, "Yay, Thor's here and he's gonna tell them stuff! I guess the people who guessed that were right!"

...then I noticed where Durkon and Minrah were, and laughed even more because Giant managed to surprise everyone with something no one even came close to guessing. And also because it's hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Weirdo]

That's not how the relationships between deities and mortals (humans, dwarves, goblins) have ever been depicted in OoTS. Why would you expect that to start now?

Between the race-wide threat of eternal damnation and torture for no good reason and, on a more individual level, exiling Durkon and preventing him from casting Regeneration on his mother's arm, now is as good a time to start as any...


They're on the fur of his boot. If he falls on his knees, they'll fall too.

Wait... *Looks* ...HOLY F-*gets shot*

[hroþila]

Between the race-wide threat of eternal damnation and torture for no good reason and, on a more individual level, exiling Durkon and preventing him from casting Regeneration on his mother's arm, now is as good a time to start as any...
Thor didn't do 67% of those things.

[Peelee]

Between the race-wide threat of eternal damnation and torture for no good reason

I mean, I fully agree, but it's not like they really think they did anything wrong.

on a more individual level, exiling Durkon and preventing him from casting Regeneration on his mother's arm, now is as good a time to start as any...
I must have missed where Thor did all that. Maybe you can provide the strips that show it?

[FlawedParadigm]

I haven't seen anyone mention this, although some have commented on the fantastic pace at which Oots is currently updating. I think that Giant was getting ahead of himself by some ways so that the narrative of this desperately important part of the comic is not broken, hence the relatively long hiatus before the current break neck update pace. So Giant is now able to release the strips at a pace which keeps the suspense going and provides added emotional whammy.

I mention this only because I think that if true it is another instance of Giant's phenomenal story telling talents.

Unless the rules have changed recently, discussing the comic's scheduling is forbidden, which is why no one would be talking about it.

[jwhouk]

I love how Minrah's confusion underscores just how broken that whole salvation vs. damnation system really is. To most dwarves, the thinking really must stop there - made it to Valhalla? You're golden! But Durkon sees past that now, and knows that it's what he does in life that matters, not how a god will reward or punish him for it after. Good man.

I think at some level Durkon probably feels godforsaken (literally). He basically switched sides after being vamped, and Hel's now po'ed at him permanently.

Hearing Thor say "Seriously, dude, we have to talk" is both fear-inducing and hope-inducing at the same time.

The fact that Thor had their souls brought directly to him should be meaningful. "I have to send you two back to right some wrongs."

Oh, and I see a way to have the Order believe Durkon when he gets back: Thor himself resurrects him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, does anyone else hear Chris Hemsworth's voice for Thor in their head?

Nope. Not once.

I hear BRIAN BLESSED!

[Bartok]

I hope after Durkon and Thor have their big talk, than Durkon can meet his father.

I wonder if Tenrin is still holding Sigdi's hand... Waiting for the rest of her to join him. Dinnae let go.

[Lkctgo]

Now that's a thor-riffic comic!

[Ave]

This update has the vibes of a somewhat disappointed father wanting to talk to his son.

On the contrary. I think Thor is pleased. He really needs Durkon to do something.

[The_Weirdo]

Thor didn't do 67% of those things.

It was done by his organized, hierarchical religion (as in, not by rogue agents thereof) and in his name.

[Psychronia]

A meeting between Durkon and big T himself! Thor is probably he last person to expect some exposition from, but I'll totally take it.

Also, it was a surprise to nobody, but Durkon's resolve to be resurrected is pretty admirable. I wonder how often does this question come up for dwarves? Resurrection is probably rare among honorably killed with a system like this and among the rare cases, most aren't as willing to shoulder the risk as Durkon is.

[Baywolfe]

It's always great when the boss is on top of the situation.

And, is it just me, or does Thor look a little like Chris Hemsworth?

[SlashDash]

Semi random question - The effect we see when Thor speaks and Durkon and Minrah are "shaking", looks very familiar to the Monster in the Dark talking to Belkar and Haley.

Is it just the sound effect thing? Or perhaps some hint?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It seems to come up with high volume--you see it when the yrthak attacks Lien and O-Chul as well.

[Xianthe]

Semi random question - The effect we see when Thor speaks and Durkon and Minrah are "shaking", looks very familiar to the Monster in the Dark talking to Belkar and Haley.

Is it just the sound effect thing? Or perhaps some hint?

I've always read that as a booming voice so strong that it can literally shake people/nearby items.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, it just means loud, booming voice.

[Peelee]

Oh, and I see a way to have the Order believe Durkon when he gets back: Thor himself resurrects him.

The gods can't act directly in the mortal world; that's why they need clerics.

Is it just me, or does Thor look a little like Chris Hemsworth?

Well, if Chris Helmsworth was ever professionally dressed to specifically look like Thor, I could probably see that too.

[Crisis21]

If I were going to do that, I'd try to measure size by comparing Thor's size to that of the little people visible on his boot in the last panel. (If I've learned anything from Game Theory, it's that pixel measurements are a great way to figure things out if you don't mind the comment section calling you a lazy idiot.) In fact...gimme a minute.
In the last panel, Durkon is 11 pixels tall. In D&D 3.5, a male dwarf is between 3'11" and 4'5" (47-53 in), with the average dwarf being 4'2" (50 in). This means one pixel is about 4.5 inches. By my measurement, the last panel is 1,069 pixels tall, which would be just over 4,800 inches or 400 feet tall. The top of Thor's head doesn't quite reach the top of the panel, but most of his boot is below the panel boundary, so it's probably fair to say Thor is roughly 400 feet tall.
For fun, let's contrast this with his size in strip #40 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html). In panel 1, the angel guy is about 40 pixels tall and Thor about 160. If the angel is roughly 5 feet tall, Thor is an order of magnitude smaller. By contrast, Surtr is about 110 pixels tall compared to the 10-pixel innocent townsfolk, putting him around 400-600 feet tall (depending on the town's dominant race).
And finally, Hel in strip #1081 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html). In panel 3, the unlucky dwarf is about 40 pixels tall (it's tricky to measure, since he's kinda half-crushed under the boulder Hel has him carry for no particular reason). It's hard to tell where Hel's feet are, but she's probably about 210-220 pixels tall; meanwhile, Thrym is about 260 pixels tall. If the dwarf is about 50 inches, each pixel is 1.25 inches, meaning Hel is about 260-275 inches (21.5-23 feet) tall and Thrym is about 325 inches (27 feet) tall.
In short, the size of gods in OotS is about as consistent as anything in real-world mythology.

...What the heck. From the far edge of Thor's boot to where Durkon and Minrah are is about 100 pixels. If that's a mile, each pixel is about 52 feet and the dwarves are over 570 feet tall, while Thor is somewhere around 10.5 miles tall.

Can I just say thank you for that awesome analysis?

Because *Thank You*.


Also, new theory on the OOtS afterlife: The mountain Roy was climbing a few books back is actually Rich Burlew's left shoe.

[hamishspence]

It was done by his organized, hierarchical religion (as in, not by rogue agents thereof) and in his name.

It was done by one High Priest (Hurak) and his immediate subordinates:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html


but Hurak kept it secret from the church as a whole. Even Hurak's replacement, Rubyrock, did not know about it.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html

[The_Weirdo]

It was done by one High Priest (Hurak) and his immediate subordinates:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html


but Hurak kept it secret from the church as a whole. Even Hurak's replacement, Rubyrock, did not know about it.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html

Is that not still in Thor's name?

[Particle_Man]

(And I just noticed that Thor didn't speak up until Durkon mentioned the Snarl, which I think bolsters my case.)

So Minrah is there so that Durkon will talk to her and hopefully mention the Snarl, at which point Thor is allowed to spout exposition? Pretty clever to summon her to his feet too, Thor!

Also, I wonder if Thor has been size-changing within the last couple of strips? Because Minrah last strip said there was a tower "in the distance" but in this strip that tower should be hugely visible (and nearby) from anywhere on top of the boot.

I wonder if Durkon could, instead of being resurrected, just be outright promoted by Thor to angel/celestial/saint (or get the risen martyr prestige class, remember prestige classes were, according to Elan, for munchkins and clerics) and come back to the OOTS that way?

[hamishspence]

Is that not still in Thor's name?

Not really. Thor can't do anything to his clerics - other than revoke the powers of a cleric who transgresses really badly.

Characters can make decisions "on their own initiative" after all.

[Jasdoif]

They're on the fur of his boot. If he falls on his knees, they'll fall too.Wait... *Looks* ...HOLY F-*gets shot*It's weird how often your knee-jerk desire for retribution against oppression would maim/kill the people you're supposedly trying to free.

[Keltest]

It was done by his organized, hierarchical religion (as in, not by rogue agents thereof) and in his name.

Which is not the same thing as it being done by Thor.

[Kish]

I would think the Order would be far more likely to react negatively if Durkon stood up under his own power, considering what he just was.

[hamishspence]

Which is not the same thing as it being done by Thor.

Hence Durkon making the distinction:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

"I dinnae blame ye, Thor. This be thar doin', na yers"

[Messenger]

Which is not the same thing as it being done by Thor.
And you think Thor not being responsible for what happened to Durkon- in whatever way- is going to stop a Good god from apologizing anyway? That he's incapable and will not say, "I'm sorry for all that you suffered during your exile," simply because he's somehow in the clear?

[Peelee]

It's weird how often your knee-jerk desire for retribution against oppression would maim/kill the people you're supposedly trying to free.

I wonder where that rates on a scale of 1 to auto-wrench.

[The_Weirdo]

It's weird how often your knee-jerk desire for retribution against oppression would maim/kill the people you're supposedly trying to free.

>_>

<_<

*Eats the banana*


I wonder where that rates on a scale of 1 to auto-wrench.

Huh?

(Just to be sure, I hadn't seen them on Thor's boots' fur)


Hence Durkon making the distinction:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

"I dinnae blame ye, Thor. This be thar doin', na yers"

Very well. There was still the wager, though.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, this seems about right.

I'm pretty sure this is Snarl/Rift plot exposition that we've been missing out on. Thor seems like the type of guy who'd rather do the right thing on a gamble.

[Peelee]

>_>

<_<

*Eats the banana*

I've always wondered if you would give an actual response if someone else just copy/pasted Jasdoif's points.

In an unrelated note, it's weird how often your knee-jerk desire for retribution against oppression would maim/kill the people you're supposedly trying to free.

[schmunzel]

Wow. How many opportunities are here?

1) Size check on the Pantheon (If Durkon is 4'6, and comes from upper calf to knee, that approximates to 1/7 of lower leg = 1/14 leg = 45% total body height = 202 ft. tall for Thor. That's a VERY conservative ballpark figure. Actual size likely 10 - 20% more)

2) Does the fact that Durkon is aware of the gates and their "Purpose" free Thor from the no information to mortals mandate, and would sharing that information with Durkon break an agreement between Gods and therefore play into Hel's hands?

3) How many ranks in Knowledge(religion) is Durkon about to get, and what will that mean regarding Hilgya, Kudzu, and what's happening in the assembly hall with the remaining vampire(s) and the Order at rest?

4) Is Minrah coming back if called?

5) The events in Durkon's head don't seem to have been as one-sided as they appeared. What lasting effect are they going to have on Durkon going forward? I doubt we're looking at a Varsuvius-style arrangement where we occasionally get Greg for fixed periods, but there's going to be more to this than just a moment of doubt in the afterlife.

6) I love the idea of an Artifact of Thor (complementary to the Red Cloak) coming back with Durkon to help the crew stay on target.

As always, loving this update timetable. And aren't we glad Greg fount "Thor's Nuts!" as a suitable expletive for just such a moment as this?

Most important question :
What will Hylgia say if, indeed Minrah decides to let herself be resurrected?
While I appreciate the narrativ reason for Minrah to be with Durkon at this point, I cant see her saying "thanks for all the effort byebye I stay in Valhalla" at the end of the day?
Or asked the other way around for what reason did Thor decide to let her learn all the context he (presumably) will give Durkon now?

sch

[The_Weirdo]

I've always wondered if you would give an actual response if someone else just copy/pasted Jasdoif's points.

In an unrelated note, it's weird how often your knee-jerk desire for retribution against oppression would maim/kill the people you're supposedly trying to free.

>_>

<_<

*Eats the dragon*

(Also, I did, though responding to you, namely that I didn't know they were on the boot)

Now will you explain the auto-wrench reference thingie?

[Ezekiel]

Thor looks incredible! There totally needs to be a new-artstyle Thor t-shirt or something! :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Now will you explain the auto-wrench reference thingie?

It comes from this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore

starting on page 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore/page6

post 179.

[Emperor Time]

That was a great reveal since it wasn't a tower after all but Thor's leg.

[The_Weirdo]

It comes from this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore

starting on page 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore/page6

post 179.

I thank you kindly, good sir. :smallsmile:

[Rogar Demonblud]

I would think the Order would be far more likely to react negatively if Durkon stood up under his own power, considering what he just was.

Well, considering that he'd go from 'pinch of ash' to 'naked dwarf', I think they could figure out something was up. Besides Hilgya's blood pressure.

[Keltest]

It comes from this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore

starting on page 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore/page6

post 179.

Man, I had forgotten how utterly insane those claims had gotten.

[nolongeralurker]

I'm with those who think Thor is just being serious about the dire situation he needs to give Durkon info on, not about to reprimand him.


Ya can't really abbreviate a name like "Thor", not unless you try going down to single letters... and I'm not sure how the guy would look on being called "Big T".

While calling him by one letter of his name would technically be an abbreviation, it wouldn't actually be briefer to say, as "T" and "Thor" are both one syllable (and if you called him "Big T" that's two syllables, so it's actually longer to say).


I hope after Durkon and Thor have their big talk, than Durkon can meet his father.

I was very certain earlier that Durkon would meet his father if he was shown in Valhalla, but now I'm worried it won't happen, because they don't seem to be near any other souls. Also because as others have pointed out, we may cut back to the Order now and only hear what Thor told Durkon when he gets resurrected.


I wonder if Tenrin is still holding Sigdi's hand... Waiting for the rest of her to join him. Dinnae let go.

1. No because Sigdi's arm does not have a soul that went to Valhalla, and Tenrin probably doesn't identify enough with it to have it be there (like Eugene's sword)

2. No because seriously, that is creepy as heck :smalleek:

Edit: Horace's sword, not Eugene's

[schmunzel]

I couldn't disagree more. I would bet actual money that Thor is quite proud of Durkon. I'm pretty sure there's a rule that the gods can't talk about the Snarl to anyone on the mortal plane, which is why Thor needed to get a loyal, responsible, truly Good follower of his up to Valhalla so he can explain what is going on what what truly needs to be done. And if that follower then gets resurrected, hey, that's not Thor's fault, right?

Which is why Thor gave the prophecy in the first place. Yes, he risked it all by allowing Hel her High Priest, but it all worked out, eh? Eh?

(Yes, I know it hasn't all worked out yet, but it will. Probably.)

(And I just noticed that Thor didn't speak up until Durkon mentioned the Snarl, which I think bolsters my case.)

It was Odin's Prophecy (or his High Priests')

addiotionally I think it will be Expose concerning the Snarl
He waited until Durkon mentioned the Snarl, because now he is able to speak to Durkon concerning the god killing abomination.
That would either strike me as rather lawful or, indeed there might be a rule among the gods to not mention the snarl to mortals.
That is the reason why Thor sounds so concerned. (at least in my ears)

sch

[jwhouk]

Semi random question - The effect we see when Thor speaks and Durkon and Minrah are "shaking", looks very familiar to the Monster in the Dark talking to Belkar and Haley.

Is it just the sound effect thing? Or perhaps some hint?

MiTD = The Dark One of the Goblins?

EDIT: Wait, wait - MiTD is the son of The Dark One. He's the "Darker Shade of Gray One."


Also, new theory on the OOtS afterlife: The mountain Roy was climbing a few books back is actually Rich Burlew's left shoe.

Headcanon confirmed.

[Peelee]

>_>

<_<

*Eats the dragon*

In Soviet Russia about every story that has a dragon, dragon eats you.

[137beth]

I wonder if Thor is going to explain what the deal with the world within the rift is?

[Jasdoif]

I wonder where that rates on a scale of 1 to auto-wrench.I'm gonna say...hydrospanner. "Hydrospanner."

[The_Weirdo]

In Soviet Russia about every story that has a dragon, dragon eats you.

That's irrelevant. *Chomps* :smallsmile:

[blunk]

I say this mostly because I can't imagine why Thor would be disappointed with Durkon.Not recognizing (and subsequently befriending) a vampire seems like a bit of an oopsie.

[Derian]

>_>

Very well. There was still the wager, though.

A wager made without Thor's consent. And once he realized that he was bound by said wager, he did everything he could to keep his people out of Hel's grip. I mean, Thor COULD have started his religion elsewhere and let the dwarfs suffer, but instead he took them as his own.

Now, having to apologize for being drunk when anywhere in the same multiverse as Loki, that's another matter.

[The MunchKING]

Did you noticed that Minra and Dukon are standing on Thor's boot?

Is the tower his leg?

EDIT: yes, the place they are in is totally Thor.

Oh, I didn't notice the "Fluffy clouds" was actually the white fluff of his boot. I thought the "Tower" was the bottom of Thor's shoe, not that they were already up it.


Perhaps this is why Thor is "glad to hear you say that". He's under non-disclosure with respect to the Snarl, but if Durkon already knows, Thor can talk to him freely.
"Seriously dude, we need to talk" sounds like the sort of thing a manager says before calling you into her office. Worries me. I'd be outraged at the idea that Durkon had not earned Valhalla, given his utter faithfulness in life, subsequent death in battle, and overcoming a negative energy spirit by guile to finally stand in the anteroom of Valhalla

To me it sounded like "We both know you're going back, so here's a bit of info dump and a new Holy Mission." It's not that Thor's going to keep Him out for petty or Stupid reasons, it's going to be that Durkon will get Res'ed and Thor wants to make sure Durkon has the crucial data to do what Thor thinks needs to be done.



Are those buttons Thor's pants in panel 8? At first I thought they were rivets.

Then again, maybe they are rivets. Could be what it takes to armor a god. :smallbiggrin:

Rivets on Metal boots would be my guess...



This is every cleric's top moment, meeting his god and hearing "dude, we need to talk". Alternatively, his worst nightmare.


"So What do you want to talk about?" Is probably the safest lead-in after that.


Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees.

Then they'd get squished! Well something ELSE for him to appologize for I guess. :p


That's not how the relationships between deities and mortals (humans, dwarves, goblins) have ever been depicted in OoTS. Why would you expect that to start now?

"Should" doesn't mean "will".


Actually, that's what I expect Thor to do. He's a Good god. His cleric was an innocent kicked out of his homeland for no fault of his own.

And if even the Dark god of the goblinoids can be gentle to his people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), why can't Thor?

Apologize, maybe. Grovel for forgiveness? Completely unlikely.



Oh, and I see a way to have the Order believe Durkon when he gets back: Thor himself resurrects him.

While that would be cool I wonder if Thor CAN under the general God-Rules? I mean He's not exactly a Health/Healing God, and his purviews are more Sky/Weather based. It maybe if he tries, he can't (or at least not better than a Cleric), and/or he'll be metaphorically trodding on the other Goddesses' turf and they won't be happy.


The gods can't act directly in the mortal world; that's why they need clerics.

Certainly not outside their Domain, but we've seen Thor was willing to get his personal Thunderclaps involved for Durkon before. Likewise Tiger ran him off from interfering in the Battle for Azure City on Durkon's behalf. So minor miracles all over the place are fair game as long as they aren't messing with any of their other agreements (most notably being they can't interfere with other people's clerics casting standard-issue clerical spells)

[SilverCacaobean]

It comes from this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore

starting on page 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527481-Is-OOTS-even-trying-anymore/page6

post 179.

Wow, I had forgotten about that thread. But now I remember that I quit it early, before I said anything I'd regret. That was a good call on my part if page 6 is indicative of how the thread went. I mean, I don't know. I'm not reading the rest. I'm not doing that to myself.

[The_Weirdo]

Not recognizing (and subsequently befriending) a vampire seems like a bit of an oopsie.

So let me get this straight.

Durkon is working on saving the world time and time again, he has succeeded at destroying a vampire from the inside, his church all but forsook him for no good reason, he's doing his very best to solve a problem the gods created and his god is disappointed in him because he couldn't realize that a giant, bipedal talking lizard had no pulse?

For an alcoholic moron, Thor sure has some tough standards!

[schmunzel]

Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees.

what for ?
Gods by definition are leaders, makers, alpha (fe)males, forces of nature, First among notequals. Very much like Presidents.
A god apologizing for his aspects would have serious psychological issues. (Not that that wouldnt be funny).

I do not belive that holding a god to our moral standards is the way sanity lies. Even if they do bets with other gods while being drunk.
I mean who will hold them accountable? Think of children.
The poor dear might not even understand what you want from him ??


So let me get this straight.

Durkon is working on saving the world time and time again, he has succeeded at destroying a vampire from the inside, his church all but forsook him for no good reason, he's doing his very best to solve a problem the gods created and his god is disappointed in him because he couldn't realize that a giant, bipedal talking lizard had no pulse?

For an alcoholic moron, Thor sure has some tough standards!

Durkon hasnt saved the world one single time yet.
And If I was a god, no matter how drunk I was (because I totally can) I would expect my Priests to have at least a basic ammount of knowledge religion ranks.

Thats leader 101 : no matter my own incompetence - have someone who is competent instead of you.

sch

[hamishspence]

While that would be cool I wonder if Thor CAN under the general God-Rules? I mean He's not exactly a Health/Healing God, and his purviews are more Sky/Weather based.

The vast majority of deities (as far as I recall) have Alter Reality - duplicates any spell, arcane or divine, of 9th level or lower.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality

[The_Weirdo]

what for ?
Gods by definition are leaders, makers, alpha (fe)males, forces of nature, First among notequals. Very much like Presidents.
A god apologizing for his aspects would have serious psychological issues. (Not that that wouldnt be funny).

I do not belive that holding a god to our moral standards is the way sanity lies. Even if they do bets with other gods while being drunk.
I mean who will hold them accountable? Think of children.
The poor dear might not even understand what you want from him ??

sch

I kinda listed what for, first and foremost the wager.
To your other points, EVERYONE must be equal.

[Aquillion]

Here's a question: Do we know for sure that this is Durkon and not reformed Greg? Would Greg know he's not Durkon at this point? They seemed confused for a moment there.

[The_Weirdo]

Here's a question: Do we know for sure that this is Durkon and not reformed Greg? Would Greg know he's not Durkon at this point? They seemed confused for a moment there.

Yes. Reformed Greg had the darkness of non-reformed Greg inside him, trying to come out. Not to mention Durkon's soul had to go SOMEwhere.

[schmunzel]

I kinda listed what for, first and foremost the wager.
To your other points, EVERYONE must be equal.

Then he would not - by definition - be a god!
at least no plausible definition I would be able to come up with.
It rather seems to defy the entire point ???

Why would I be a god If I still could be held accountable??


Couldn't he make him into a risen martyr without breaking the rules, as particle man said? Though, after reading about it, he won't get to raise his son if that happens, so I guess it's unlikely.



If my prime minister made a drunken bet that gave default dominion of our souls to some torturer unless we died "honourably" you better believe that apologizing would be the least that would happen to him. So, yeah. Not like presidents or anything that can be killed by a mob, really.



The problem is accountability



Also the alpha male/female thing is based on a debunked study. Debunked by the same person who conducted the original study, too. Not too relevant to what you're trying to say, but I think it's interesting.

Now you got me interested.
There are studies on alpha female godesses ??



sch

[SilverCacaobean]

While that would be cool I wonder if Thor CAN under the general God-Rules? I mean He's not exactly a Health/Healing God, and his purviews are more Sky/Weather based. It maybe if he tries, he can't (or at least not better than a Cleric), and/or he'll be metaphorically trodding on the other Goddesses' turf and they won't be happy.

Couldn't he make him into a risen martyr without breaking the rules, as particle man said? Though, after reading about it, he won't get to raise his son if that happens, so I guess it's unlikely.


what for ?
Gods by definition are leaders, makers, alpha (fe)males, forces of nature, First among notequals. Very much like Presidents.
A god apologizing for his aspects would have serious psychological issues. (Not that that wouldnt be funny).

I do not belive that holding a god to our moral standards is the way sanity lies. Even if they do bets with other gods while being drunk.
I mean who will hold them accountable? Think of children.
The poor dear might not even understand what you want from him ??

sch

If my prime minister made a drunken bet that gave default dominion of our souls to some torturer unless we died "honourably" you better believe that apologizing would be the least that would happen to him. So, yeah. Not like presidents or anything that can be killed by a mob, really.

Also the alpha male/female thing is based on a debunked study. Debunked by the same person who conducted the original study, too. Not too relevant to what you're trying to say, but I think it's interesting.

[SilverCacaobean]

Now you got me interested.
There are studies on alpha female godesses ??

sch

Is this sarcasm, or genuine interest? Anyway, in case of the latter, I said about the "alpha male/female thing" as in the general idea that came from a study of wolf packs. I also said "Not too relevant to what you're trying to say, but I think it's interesting." Look it up if you're interested.

[hamishspence]

Why would I be a god If I still could be held accountable??

When a god's held accountable, it's usually by the other gods.

In the Forgotten Realms, Mystra, Cyric, and Kelemvor were all put on trial by the rest of the pantheon. And thanks to her interference in events leading up to the trial, Mystra was even thrown in a jail cell capable of holding greater deities, to await it.

And of course an overdeity is capable of doing things to regular deities easily. When Tyr attempted to convince Ao not to punish the whole pantheon for a few deities stealing the Tablets of Fate, Ao blinded him.

[schmunzel]

Is this sarcasm, or genuine interest? Anyway, in case of the latter, I said about the "alpha male/female thing" as in the general idea that came from a study of wolf packs. I also said "Not too relevant to what you're trying to say, but I think it's interesting." Look it up if you're interested.

both actually :)
On Wolf packs Im actually primed (horses, too).
Goddesses are those I dont have any legit studies on :)

sch

[The_Weirdo]

Then he would not - by definition - be a god!
at least no plausible definition I would be able to come up with.
It rather seems to defy the entire point ???

Why would I be a god If I still could be held accountable??

Great power, great responsibility. My entire shtick is that if you aren't careful with your position of authority, you deserve what you get.

(Not you-you, one-you).

[Rrmcklin]

This was good, but at the same time I think the first page only exists to clarify what should have been obvious (Durkon's entire opinion on being resurrected) because for some reason a number of people thought he'd turn it down.

[schmunzel]

When a god's held accountable, it's usually by the other gods.

In the Forgotten Realms, Mystra, Cyric, and Kelemvor were all put on trial by the rest of the pantheon. And thanks to her interference in events leading up to the trial, Mystra was even thrown in a jail cell capable of holding greater deities, to await it.

And of course an overdeity is capable of doing things to regular deities easily. When Tyr attempted to convince Ao not to punish the whole pantheon for a few deities stealing the Tablets of Fate, Ao blinded him.

Im no historian. But to my knowledge most legends about gods and their interaction (holding others responsible or being held responsible) were either stories made up to give your people the idea of a basic moral framework or justifications in ancient cultures for whoever traced his lineage back to the god smiting or being smitten to be seen in a position of moral superiority. Or to give your claim of leadership credence.
The Accountability can however only be towards their own. The thought that a roman would hold another roman accountable for what happened to some germanic dude was probably pretty ridiculous.
So lets say that our image of morality has improved since then and with it (hopefully) our image of god(s).


Great power, great responsibility. My entire shtick is that if you aren't careful with your position of authority, you deserve what you get.

(Not you-you, one-you).

We are not able to hold our own leaders to that standard, how could we possibly do it with our gods ??

sch

[SilverCacaobean]

This was good, but at the same time I think the first page only exists to clarify what should have been obvious (Durkon's entire opinion on being resurrected) because for some reason a number of people thought he'd turn it down.

Well, we also got some information about the Exarch having a plan prepared, that Greg helped him concoct. We also got confirmation that if a dwarf get's raised after dying honourably, they might go to Hel if the fail to die honourably again. Not terribly important, but they're also reasons for the page to exist.

It's true that most people knew that Durkon would want to return but it's nice to be sure anyway, too. Even better to be sure that he'd go back for his son even without the world being in danger.

Also, I like Durkon talking with Minrah and we got that "dreams forged in glitter ink" line.

So... I approve of the page's existence :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

The finale of the Time of Troubles arc shows Ao making it clear that gods now serve mortals, not vice versa:


"On these artifacts," the overlord said, sending his voice and image to all of his gods. "I have recorded the forces that balance Law and Chaos."

"And I have returned them to you," Cyric said, daring to meet Ao's gaze.

Ao looked at the thief without approval or disapproval. "Yes," he said, stacking the tablets together. "And here is what it amounts to!" The overlord of the gods crushed the tablets in his hands and ground them into dust.

Midnight cringed, expecting the heavens to come crashing down. Adon cried out in grief and astonishment. Cyric watched the dust fall from between Ao's fingers, an angry frown creeping down his face.

Helm jumped to his feet. "Master, what have you done?" the god asked, his voice betraying his fear.

"The tablets mean nothing," Ao said, addressing all of his gods, no matter where they were. "I kept them to remind you that I created gods to serve the Balance, not to twist it to your own ends. But this point was lost on you. You saw the tablets as a set of rules by which to play juvenile games of prestige and pomp! Then, when the rules became inconvenient you stole them..."

"But that was -," Helm began.

"I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name that they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altars - all so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had never created you."

Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers."

From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsurlagoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened with outrage and shock.

"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them."

In sunny Tesiir, a beautiful woman with silky scarlet hair and fiery red-brown eyes looked as though she were going to retch. "Serve them?" Sune asked.

"I have spoken!" Ao replied.

[Doug Lampert]

Well technically, only Xykon, Redcloak and O-Chul know that Miko blew up the gate.

Yep, the rest of them think O-Chul did it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

[The_Weirdo]

We are not able to hold our own leaders to that standard, how could we possibly do it with our gods ??

sch

Oh, well, if you're arguing practicality, then yes, we are in agreement on the feasibility, sure.

[schmunzel]

I mean, I fully agree, but it's not like they really think they did anything wrong.

Im only speaking for myself here but when I would become a god I would totally not do so because acountability was listed very high in the job description.



I must have missed where Thor did all that. Maybe you can provide the strips that show it?

Thats actually one of he bigger drawbacks.
The second you start out being almighty, everybody thinks that every single problem of his was your business to deal with.

sch

[Rrmcklin]

Well, we also got some information about the Exarch having a plan prepared, that Greg helped him concoct. We also got confirmation that if a dwarf get's raised after dying honourably, they might go to Hel if the fail to die honourably again. Not terribly important, but they're also reasons for the page to exist.

It's true that most people knew that Durkon would want to return but it's nice to be sure anyway, too. Even better to be sure that he'd go back for his son even without the world being in danger.

Also, I like Durkon talking with Minrah and we got that "dreams forged in glitter ink" line.

So... I approve of the page's existence :smalltongue:

We already knew the Exarch was doing something, as well as the going to Hel if they die dishonorably. Neither point is new information.

My point is that "Durkon wants to a father to his son" is something so obvious it shouldn't even need to be said, even though it is nice to hear.

Like I said, it was good, I'm not complaining that it exists. I'm just noting that everything Durkon said is obvious if you've been paying attention to his character, which makes me think a number of people haven't been for some reason.

[Jasdoif]

And of course an overdeity is capable of doing things to regular deities easily.On this point, it's important to note:


And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.

[hamishspence]

Which does suggest that the only beings capable of "holding a deity to account" are other deities (and the Snarl) - since there's no overdeity in OOTS.

That said, since Banjo's power is dependent on Number of Worshippers, it is possible that if a bunch of worshippers were to stop worshipping, that deity would weaken.

[Ironsmith]

Im only speaking for myself here but when I would become a god I would totally not do so because acountability was listed very high in the job description.

Seconded, though the possibility of ascending to godhood has some... interesting implications in regards to how the gods should be treated... and I'm not sure such is even canon in the OOtS 'verse, so meh.


Thats actually one of he bigger drawbacks.
The second you start out being almighty, everybody thinks that every single problem of his was your business to deal with.

Who are we kidding? The second you have any influence at all, everyone under you thinks that.

[schmunzel]

On this point, it's important to note:



That was a nice quote!!
Thank you


Yes, babies of Evil mothers go to the Evil afterlives. No, it's not fair.

Fairness is not a cosmological principle, fairness is a philosophical concept that not everyone agrees on. This is not strictly a Good/Evil split either; one could easily imagine Chaotic Good folks being in favor of a process that was rampantly unfair if that unfairness benefited the weak, with Lawful Evil folks opposed to the same system because they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps without it and so should everyone else. One could argue that "survival of the fittest" is the ultimate in fairness, in that it treats everyone equally with no exceptions, but it's not an ideal that most Good people promote.

Since the OOTS cosmos was created by a committee of equal gods with a wide spectrum of alignments, philosophies, and cultural tendencies, justice is only enforced to the degree that those who favor justice could negotiate its enforcement. In some instances, they were forced to compromise and allow unjust procedures in certain areas for the sake of avoiding Snarl 2.0. In this case, the relative fairness of having one rule that applied to everyone trumped the potential injustice of innocent babies going to Hell.

Further, if it really bothers you, remember that my previous statement said that if you want to imagine those babies reincarnating eventually, you could. Maybe the psychic impressions left by spending time in Hell subtly encourages many of them to veer away from Evil in their next life. Or maybe Good priests use these facts to try to sway Evil parents away from their dastardly paths: "Turn away from the darkness, lest you drag your swaddling babe down to the Pit in your wake!" Just because it's awful to think about the individual circumstances doesn't mean that it doesn't lead to a net increase in Good over the aggregate.

And just to be clear: There is no "overgod" in OOTS at all. There are the nonsentient cosmological forces of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos), which can be tapped directly for clerical power if you prefer not to go through a deific intermediary, but they have no capacity to take action any more than the force of gravity does. They certainly took no part in shaping the rules and procedures of the OOTS afterlife, as that was entirely done by the gods themselves.



I would like to add, that as a direct consequence of the bet perhaps the net amount of Souls saved from Hel was much bigger than by any other arrangement because she was kept from being influential??

That would be the way I would expect a good god to weigh his options.

sch

[Arkain]

Really loving that they've turned out to be standing on his boot. Also, dreams forged in glitter ink :smallbiggrin:

[SilverCacaobean]

We already knew the Exarch was doing something, as well as the going to Hel if they die dishonorably. Neither point is new information.

My point is that "Durkon wants to a father to his son" is something so obvious it shouldn't even need to be said, even though it is nice to hear.

Like I said, it was good, I'm not complaining that it exists. I'm just noting that everything Durkon said is obvious if you've been paying attention to his character, which makes me think a number of people haven't been for some reason.

I'd seen a few people argue that it's possible that if a Dwarf dies honourably once then they'll escape Hel even if they die n times dishonourably after that. But yes the page was mostly confirmation of very likely things.

I forgot to mention before: the important thing about the dialogue about the Exarch isn't that he's planning something (even though the fact that Greg helped him come up with tricks, is completely new information.) It's that Durkon got confused for a moment about his own identity when it comes to vampires edit:Greg. I mean Greg. So the page also gives information about How Vampires Work.

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually, that's what I expect Thor to do. That isn't what god's do, in OoTSverse, so far. Get down on knees and apologize? No, not unless Rich decides to make a change here (which he might). The deal between gods, over the fate of Dwarven souls and human souls, simply is. It operates a the "deity" level. Look at what I responded to.

Thor should begin the talk by apologizing. On his knees.
That's the_weirdo trolling again, most likely. The apology might come, the 'on his knees' ... no. That's the anchor of my response to TW. That hyperbole.

[Rrmcklin]

I'd seen a few people argue that it's possible that if a Dwarf dies honourably once then they'll escape Hel even if they die n times dishonourably after that. But yes the page was mostly confirmation of very likely things.

I forgot to mention before: the important thing about the dialogue about the Exarch isn't that he's planning something (even though the fact that Greg helped him come up with tricks, is completely new information.) It's that Durkon got confused for a moment about his own identity when it comes to vampires. So the page also gives information about How Vampires Work.

I didn't take that as saying anything about How Vampires Work. He was confused because the vampire spirit spent so much time acting as him, and then even was him for a second. It's not that hard. More to the point, Durkon isn't a vampire any more, he's not going to be a vampire when he comes back, so it doesn't matter.

Again, I liked the strip, I'm just commenting on something that made me go "Oh, this is probably for those people".

[hamishspence]

That isn't what god's do, in OoTSverse, so far. Get down on knees and apologize? No, not unless Rich decides to make a change here (which he might).

Apologising for Hurak's behaviour I could see - but not taking all the blame for Hurak's behaviour - and not apologising in a way the deity would feel is demeaning.

[Darkhands]

there is no more apprpriate time for durkon to say "THOR'S NUTS!" than this instant.

Durkon: "Thor's nuts!"
Thor: "Wait, is my fly open?!"

[SilverCacaobean]

That isn't what god's do, in OoTSverse, so far. Get down on knees and apologize?
Yeah, I'm not expecting that dude (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) to fall on his knees and apologize. Well, he has learned Durkon's name since, but I'm still not expecting him to do that, nevertheless.


I didn't take that as saying anything about How Vampires Work. He was confused because the vampire spirit spent so much time acting as him, and then even was him for a second. It's not that hard. More to the point, Durkon isn't a vampire any more, he's not going to be a vampire when he comes back, so it doesn't matter.

Again, I liked the strip, I'm just commenting on something that made me go "Oh, this is probably for those people".

Hey, I'm not saying that you didn't like it, I'm just talking. Even if you didn't, there's no accounting for taste so I wouldn't get on your case for that.

[magwaaf]

umm... holy f....

was not prepared for that....


thank you burlew!

[The_Weirdo]

That isn't what god's do, in OoTSverse, so far. Get down on knees and apologize? No, not unless Rich decides to make a change here (which he might). The deal between gods, over the fate of Dwarven souls and human souls, simply is. It operates a the "deity" level. Look at what I responded to.

That's the_weirdo trolling again, most likely. The apology might come, the 'on his knees' ... no. That's the anchor of my response to TW. That hyperbole.

Now, now, don't shoot the Messenger.

[Crisis21]

Headcanon confirmed.

*grins* :smallbiggrin:

@V: :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder if Tenrin is still holding Sigdi's hand... Waiting for the rest of her to join him. Dinnae let go. Yeah, probably is.
It was done by his organized, hierarchical religion (as in, not by rogue agents thereof) and in his name. Enough with the trolling a la the noise you made regarding Hilgya.
This, on the other hand ...

Hence Durkon making the distinction:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

"I dinnae blame ye, Thor. This be thar doin', na yers" ... is by someone who gets it.

Apologising for Hurak's behaviour I could see - but not taking all the blame for Hurak's behaviour - and not apologising in a way the deity would feel is demeaning. That would fit with what we've seen so far.

Also, new theory on the OOtS afterlife: The mountain Roy was climbing a few books back is actually Rich Burlew's left shoe. Heh, why not? I like it. :smallsmile:

[schmunzel]

Apologising for Hurak's behaviour I could see - but not taking all the blame for Hurak's behaviour - and not apologising in a way the deity would feel is demeaning.

I do not see a good reason to apologize.
No one will argue it was fair BUT
everythin Durkon was, is and will ever be is because of Hurak's behaviour.

Durkons entire being is shaped by this one event.
By taking this from him you deny him his self.

sch

PS Acknowledgemnt would be something though. - Dude you've come a long way. Well done!

[Goblin_Priest]

Nice. Eager to see what's next.

[KorvinStarmast]

No one will argue it was fair BUT everythin Durkon was, is and will ever be is because of Hurak's behaviour.
Durkons entire being is shaped by this one event.
By taking this from him you deny him his self.

PS Acknowledgmnt would be something though. - Dude you've come a long way. Well done! Nice take; I like how you put that together. I also think that Minrah might change her idea of "Woot, Valhalla, I don't have to go back!" after Thor does his exposition .

[Particle_Man]

umm... holy f....

Foot?:smallbiggrin:

I don’t think that everything Durkon is was shaped by Hurak. His mom, uncles and aunts shaped his character too.

[schmunzel]

Nice take; I like how you put that together. I also think that Minrah might change her idea of "Woot, Valhalla, I don't have to go back!" after Thor does his exposition .

Beat Panel
smile :)

:P

and yes I do not see Minrah staying in Valhalla. Why else would she be with Thor and Durkon now?? (except narrative reasons)

sch

[The MunchKING]

Nice take; I like how you put that together. I also think that Minrah might change her idea of "Woot, Valhalla, I don't have to go back!" after Thor does his exposition .

Alternatively he'll scoot her on over to Valhalla before the exposition because she doesn't already know about the Snarl-stuff.

[vwnewt]

Foot?:smallbiggrin:

I don’t think that everything Durkon is was shaped by Hurak. His mom, uncles and aunts shaped his character too.

Not only that: what Durkon had become when at last Hurak expelled him from the Dwarven Homelands was the material molded by what Hurak did; what mom and family turned him into is what was shaped by Hurak's actions. If Sigdi doesn't raise those five miners, the Durkon we know and love doesn't exist. One could argue that Hurak's actions had less of an effect on the overall outcome than did Sigdi and her "Family:" a change at any point along Durkon's development has a much more drastic effect on Durkon's reaction to his expulsion than does the expulsion itself.

Wouldn't it be that reaction that Odin is counting on when he makes the prophecy? And isn't that why the Order needs Durkon and not any other cleric?

[weckar]

Incoming "Durkon, I am your father."

[AlurenDarkfire]

What if it's not Thor; it's Loki?

[Takver]

I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos.

Me, too.

Though it's certainly unsettling. I mean, "Durkon and Minrah approach a tower to find they are standing on the boot of a God," that's like, pretty far from comfortable.

[The MunchKING]

The vast majority of deities (as far as I recall) have Alter Reality - duplicates any spell, arcane or divine, of 9th level or lower.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#alterReality

Well, yes. And IIRC the rules say they can cast any spell they can bestow, so pretty much all of them get all of the Cleric/Favored Soul/Paladin lists.

If he wants to do that, I hope he's got some diamonds on hand though. :p


I kinda listed what for, first and foremost the wager.
To your other points, EVERYONE must be equal.

And yet, they aren't.


Couldn't he make him into a risen martyr without breaking the rules, as particle man said? Though, after reading about it, he won't get to raise his son if that happens, so I guess it's unlikely.

Well that certainly is a thing I didn't think of, but they have a short one-mission lifespan don't they?



If my prime minister made a drunken bet that gave default dominion of our souls to some torturer unless we died "honourably" you better believe that apologizing would be the least that would happen to him. So, yeah. Not like presidents or anything that can be killed by a mob, really.

"Not at all Similar are the Race of the Immortal Gods, and the race of men who walk upon the Earth." Civ 6.