+40 to all saves by level 20

[Warchon]

Just a random idea I had. By taking one level each in a pile of classes with two strong saves, can we build a character with +40 to all saves? Not using items or spells, or anything with LA.
And the harder follow up question: Can we weaponize that into something useful?
Using 15 two-save classes, I'm sure we can get to
20/20/20 without a hassle. That serves as a starting point. Let's add Monk (3 good saves).
22/22/22
The three basic save feats pushes that to 24/24/24
Obviously 2 levels of Paladin would be a help, CHA of 14 putting him one point above the progression via Grace, with each bonus point above that being gravy. On 28 point buy, we can dump STR and INT, have CHA at 18, and still have a 12 in all three save stats...so now we're at 32/29/29.
By level 20 he's turned that 18 CHA into 22, putting him at 34/31/31
If one of our 2-save classes is Marshall, we can use his Minor Aura to boost one save by CHA.
34/37/31
A second level in Marshall is only worth 2 points in base saves, but also grants us a Major Aura for another +1 to all saves
35/38/34
Halfling save bonuses bump the edge up a little bit too and give us one more point in Reflex from dex to boot.
36/39/36
We have one level left to spend. Halfling Paragon only has one good save, but it doubles the racial bonus at level 1.
39/40/37
So I'm already very, very close. What would put me over the edge, and what would turn this character into something worth actually having on the field?

[Goaty14]

Dunno how relevant it is, but Force of Personality (CAd) allows you to switch WILL to CHA, and dump WIS as a result.

[Rebel7284]

The easiest way to accomplish this, like most things, is spellcasting.

1. Polymorph into Gloura
2. Persist Sirine's Grace
3. Persist Ruin Delver's Fortune 3 times, once for each save.

That's charisma to saves 3 times before you even get to classes.

[Warchon]

Dunno how relevant it is, but Force of Personality (CAd) allows you to switch WILL to CHA, and dump WIS as a result.
Nice find, that would bump REF and FORT by 1 each and (by L20) bump WILL by 5.
Only catch is it specifies "mind affecting spells and abilities" which technically leaves your WILL out in the cold against a few edge cases.


The easiest way to accomplish this, like most things, is spellcasting.

1. Polymorph into Gloura
2. Persist Sirine's Grace
3. Persist Ruin Delver's Fortune 3 times, once for each save.

That's charisma to saves 3 times before you even get to classes.

Sure, but that's why I said at the top I wanted to do this without the three big things that would let us brute force it: spells, items, and LA. :)

[CharonsHelper]

If it's Pathfinder - going Dwarf and burning both a trait & a feat can net you +5 vs all magic & +3 vs poison, though the CHA penalty hurts a bit.

[Telonius]

Three diamond mind maneuvers, max ranks in concentration, and a widget of Guidance of the Avatar would get you to +43 before any other modifiers.

EDIT: Ah, Pathfinder.

[Calthropstu]

A lvl in monk gives 2/2/2. If we substitute a couple other all base saves the 24 base becomes 26.

[Warchon]

A lvl in monk gives 2/2/2. If we substitute a couple other all base saves the 24 base becomes 26.
Good catch. That nets 2 more points. (The 24 base was for 18 levels, leaving room for the paladin trick. Trading a 2-save class for a 3-save class brings us to 24/24/26)

[noce]

Dunno how relevant it is, but Force of Personality (CAd) allows you to switch WILL to CHA, and dump WIS as a result.

False.
It does not substitutes Cha to Wis for will saves, but instead adds Cha to will saves (on top of Wis), but only against mind affecting effects.

It's a very weak feat, given that a cast of Protection from Evil renders you immune to mind affecting effects.

[Warchon]

False.
It does not substitutes Cha to Wis for will saves, but instead adds Cha to will saves (on top of Wis), but only against mind affecting effects.

It's a very weak feat, given that a cast of Protection from Evil renders you immune to mind affecting effects.


..I'm looking right at it. It's not a bonus, it swaps the stat used, just like he said.
And the relative power of the feat is irrelevant to whether it accomplishes the stated goal of "bring saves up"
You might be thinking of Unnatural Will, which is a charisma bonus to will saves against fear.

[Warchon]

If it's Pathfinder - going Dwarf and burning both a trait & a feat can net you +5 vs all magic & +3 vs poison, though the CHA penalty hurts a bit.

All nice ways to boost saves generally, but unfortunately they leave blind spots in their affected saves that make them technically not applicable here. :)

[RaiKirah]

I think you specified dips and maybe even base classes only, but Incarnum Blade using a Monk's unarmed strike as the Blademeld focus arguably gets +5 to all save over the five levels of the class in addition to it's base progression. It requires you but the argument that a monk is a melee weapon (Monk unarmed strike can be made with any body part, is treated as both natural and manufactured), which is the same argument that makes for Fistbeard Beardfist and Sizing monk builds.

[Zaq]

A level in Halfling Paragon only offers good Ref as a base save, but it increases your halfling racial bonus to saves by 1.

I think there’s a Forgotten Realms regional(?) feat to give a +1 to all your saves. It’s typed (luck, I think), but if memory serves, luck is a relatively hard bonus to get anyway.

Do you actually have 18 different alignment-compatible classes with 2 good base saves? The right mix of which 2 good saves for each, to boot?

I don’t think you’ll be able to “weaponize” this or otherwise make the character good at anything other than rolling saving throws. This is pretty clearly a thought experiment that’s consuming the vast majority of your build resources. I don’t foresee there being much metaphorical currency left to spend on being effective at anything else.

[daremetoidareyo]

A level in Halfling Paragon only offers good Ref as a base save, but it increases your halfling racial bonus to saves by 1.

I think there’s a Forgotten Realms regional(?) feat to give a +1 to all your saves. It’s typed (luck, I think), but if memory serves, luck is a relatively hard bonus to get anyway.

Do you actually have 18 different alignment-compatible classes with 2 good base saves? The right mix of which 2 good saves for each, to boot?

I don’t think you’ll be able to “weaponize” this or otherwise make the character good at anything other than rolling saving throws. This is pretty clearly a thought experiment that’s consuming the vast majority of your build resources. I don’t foresee there being much metaphorical currency left to spend on being effective at anything else.

Take spellfire wielder feat at first level and you'll be fine. If there are any feat slots left, there is a luck feat that turns a 1 into a 20. Rogues can take spell reflection acf to mess with targeted spells, poison healer feat can heal you up with a fort save, and residual rebound feat spell turns a spell on a nat 20.

If you take a cleric level, I think you can get great fortitude and lightning reflexes through your domains...it may need to be a custom divine principle because that requires access to both the dwarf and drow domains.

[Warchon]

A level in Halfling Paragon only offers good Ref as a base save, but it increases your halfling racial bonus to saves by 1.

I think there’s a Forgotten Realms regional(?) feat to give a +1 to all your saves. It’s typed (luck, I think), but if memory serves, luck is a relatively hard bonus to get anyway.

Do you actually have 18 different alignment-compatible classes with 2 good base saves? The right mix of which 2 good saves for each, to boot?

Halfling Paragon is a good find. Still a net +1 over the rest of the progression!

I have NOT sorted out the base classes, but with close to 100 in game, I doubt I'll have trouble when I do sit down and map them out.
Plus there's the off chance I can qualify this mess for a PrC or two for a little variety.
I don't know of any way to use saves offensively. I don't know of any way to turn a daily allotment of fifty or more first level spells into something useful.
If nothing else, it would have a probably near-absolute class skill list and fill in some party skillmonkey gaps that way. (Yes, I'm aware that's not quite how class skills are supposed to work, but I've never met a DM who doesn't run them that way).

[daremetoidareyo]

If one of those classes is Marshall, your minor Aura can add your charisma to one of your saves, which by your calculations, is at least another 3 points.

[Warchon]

Take spellfire wielder feat at first level and you'll be fine. If there are any feat slots left, there is a luck feat that turns a 1 into a 20. Rogues can take spell reflection acf to mess with targeted spells, poison healer feat can heal you up with a fort save, and residual rebound feat spell turns a spell on a nat 20.

If you take a cleric level, I think you can get great fortitude and lightning reflexes through your domains...it may need to be a custom divine principle because that requires access to both the dwarf and drow domains.

Interesting. Thanks for being the first person to think of a way to turn this into a weapon. Next step there would be how to trick a caster into spending a lot of attention on you.

[Warchon]

If one of those classes is Marshall, your minor Aura can add your charisma to one of your saves, which by your calculations, is at least another 3 points.

Marshall is another great suggestion! That's a big +6 step at level one, and another +1 eked out by taking a second level and getting a Major aura.

[daremetoidareyo]

Interesting. Thanks for being the first person to think of a way to turn this into a weapon. Next step there would be how to trick a caster into spending a lot of attention on you.

Sleight of hand checks being used to harass them? steal their component pouch, their wands, their hat, their....spellbook?.

[Calthropstu]

Cha 18 -> 20(racial boost), dex 16, con 14 -> 16(racial boost) dumping other stats into the toilet. (Taking azata blooded aasimar)
Monk 2/2/2
Bard 2/4/4
Ranger 4/6/4
Paladin 6/6/6 (cha 21)
Paladin 7/6/7
Cleric 9/6/9
Alchemist 11/8/9
Gunslinger 13/10/9 (cha 22)
Vampire hunter 13/12/11
Vigilante 13/14/13
Magus 15/14/15
Aegis 17/14/17 (Cha 23)
Dread 17/16/19
Marksman 17/18/21
Kinetecist 19/20/21
Spiritualist 21/20/23 (cha 24)
Slayer 23/22/23


That leaves us 3 lvls to play with and guarantees our baseline is met.

After adding the 7 from cha for paladin, we sit at 30/29/30
Feats get us to 32/31/32

Levels should be able to get us minimum 4 to each for 36/35/36
Traits can get us an additional +1 to each for 37/36/37

Force of personality sets us at cha to will instead of wis so after adding bonuses from stats we're at 40/39/44

We need one extra point in ref. Anyone see it?

[Warchon]

Hmm...on a second look, Spellfire Wielder actually falls pretty flat for this build.
1) Limited by constitution means we're getting three levels of absorption per use (after rejiggering point buy to get a 16 CON without sacrificing overall saves) which only keeps up until around party level 5 or so, IF you can reliably get the incoming fire for it.
2) It's just a readied action with guaranteed success, the crazy saves are irrelevant.

The rogue Spell Turning route is still attractive, but three levels of rogue to get there is only worth 5 points in saves--a net loss of 7. Possibly worth it if the build is somehow worthwhile in its own right, but it's a major setback to the stated goal of the build.

[Warchon]

Cha 18 -> 20(racial boost), dex 16, con 14 -> 16(racial boost) dumping other stats into the toilet. (Taking azata blooded aasimar)
Monk 2/2/2
Bard 2/4/4
Ranger 4/6/4
Paladin 6/6/6 (cha 21)
Paladin 7/6/7
Cleric 9/6/9
Alchemist 11/8/9
Gunslinger 13/10/9 (cha 22)
Vampire hunter 13/12/11
Vigilante 13/14/13
Magus 15/14/15
Aegis 17/14/17 (Cha 23)
Dread 17/16/19
Marksman 17/18/21
Kinetecist 19/20/21
Spiritualist 21/20/23 (cha 24)
Slayer 23/22/23


That leaves us 3 lvls to play with and guarantees our baseline is met.

After adding the 7 from cha for paladin, we sit at 30/29/30
Feats get us to 32/31/32

Levels should be able to get us minimum 4 to each for 36/35/36
Traits can get us an additional +1 to each for 37/36/37

Force of personality sets us at cha to will instead of wis so after adding bonuses from stats we're at 40/39/44

We need one extra point in ref. Anyone see it?

You actually claimed an extra 3 points in Paladin--they have one good save, not two--but I think you're on to something taking a cha race instead of my halfling build, since CHA hits twice now (Paladin, Marshall)

[Calthropstu]

You actually claimed an extra 3 points in Paladin--they have one good save, not two--but I think you're on to something taking a cha race instead of my halfling build, since CHA hits twice now (Paladin, Marshall)

Pathfinder paladins have 2 good saves, fort + will. That is a pathfinder build.

Edit: But even in 3.5 that would still net us 40/39/41.

[Khedrac]

Ensure one of your levels is Favoured Soul - they may not be good for much, but they do have 3 good saves.

[Calthropstu]

Ensure one of your levels is Favoured Soul - they may not be good for much, but they do have 3 good saves.

That gets us where we need in 3.5 by netting us 2 extra ref points.

Pathfinder needs 1 more though.

[Malimar]

One Outsider or Dragon RHD gives +2 to all three base saves. It's not clear whether it's possible to take an RHD as a class level, but I'd allow it.

[Yanisa]

Pathfinder needs 1 more though.

Pathfinder Half-Orc looses one con modifer, but thanks to sacred tattoo and the Fate’s Favored can add +2 luck to every save.

Unless there are more reasons for Aasimar I missed

[r2d2go]

For Pathfinder, grab Forester and carry two trees? :smalltongue: More reasonably, Totem Spirit is +1 reflex. Though, the only Pathfinder classes I could find that forces saves on themselves were Draconic Exemplar and Master Chymist, and both are prrtty easy.

3.5, I'd probably go for Tome of Battle + Diamond Mind in a practical game, but that isn't technically save bonuses. Taking a bunch of classes with +2 to all (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13011731&postcount=20))gives you +40, but that's not really that useful. The most practical reason I can think of for massive saves though, is Frenzied Berserker, who frequently needs to make a Will Save whose DC scales 1:1 with damage taken. So, going for a themed build and not just "play a Persist Cleric and spam buffs", I'd go for Channeled Rage in order to get Strength to will, but that burns rage uses like mad so we should grab a Ready Drink Helm and a bunch of potions of Blood Frenzy, but technically that's not necessary for the build. 5 levels of Bear Warrior and that's another +16 strength (and thus +8 to will saves). Pick up a level of Dragonslayer for the immunity to fear and then Cumbrous Will for another +6. So, the build looks something like this:

Half-Orc Barbarian 3, Fighter 2, Dragonslayer 1, Frenzied Berzerker 1, Bear Warrior 5, Frenzied Berzerker 1

Feats:
Iron Will (1)
Destructive Rage (3)
Power Attack (F1)
Dodge (F2)
Intimidating Rage (5)
Cleave (7)
Cumbrous Will (9)
Channelled Rage (11)
Great Cleave? (13)

At this point you have something like +4 (Base) +4 (Wis) +2 (Iron Will) +6 (Cumbrous Will) +15 (Chanelled Rage), for +30 to Will saves. It's pretty trivial to get to +40 from there.

[Calthropstu]

Pathfinder Half-Orc looses one con modifer, but thanks to sacred tattoo and the Fate’s Favored can add +2 luck to every save.

Unless there are more reasons for Aasimar I missed

Nope, just the con mod and cha mod.

That does the trick. Final tally: 41/41/46.

Btw, I highly recommend not actually playing this. We've pretty much created the most useless character of all time. We don't even have evasion.

[Yanisa]

Nope, just the con mod and cha mod.

That does the trick. Final tally: 41/41/46.

Btw, I highly recommend not actually playing this. We've pretty much created the most useless character of all time. We don't even have evasion.

Hmmm... the Marshall double charisma thing made me think. We can take this a step further.

Because we are half-orc, we count as human. We take racial heritage (kobold) and pick up Kobold Confidence (Kobold) to get Charisma instead of Constitution of Fortitude Saves.
Similar, a single level of oracle (2 goods saves, easy to swap around) allows us to take the Lore Revelation Sidestep Secret to get Charisma instead of Dexterity to our Reflex Saves.
Lastly there is no real fit for Will saves, but there is a pathfinder of Force of personality named Steadfast Personality. Doesn't protect us on non mind effecting will saves, and doesn't allow wisdom penalties, but it is close enough.
Now Fort and Ref are Cha based, and then all three saves get divine grace.

(I know replacing the base ability score and then adding the same ability score to the same roll is iffy within pathfinder, but ssst.)

[Calthropstu]

Hmmm... the Marshall double charisma thing made me think. We can take this a step further.

Because we are half-orc, we count as human. We take racial heritage (kobold) and pick up Kobold Confidence (Kobold) to get Charisma instead of Constitution of Fortitude Saves.
Similar, a single level of oracle (2 goods saves, easy to swap around) allows us to take the Lore Revelation Sidestep Secret to get Charisma instead of Dexterity to our Reflex Saves.
Lastly there is no real fit for Will saves, but there is a pathfinder of Force of personality named Steadfast Personality. Doesn't protect us on non mind effecting will saves, and doesn't allow wisdom penalties, but it is close enough.
Now Fort and Ref are Cha based, and then all three saves get divine grace.

(I know replacing the base ability score and then adding the same ability score to the same roll is iffy within pathfinder, but ssst.)

So now we are 48/48/46. Nice.

[Yogibear41]

Taker Prestige class from dragon magazine gets its Cha bonus to saves and attack rolls as a morale bonus, stacking with divine grace, etc. Could theoretically be something like Evil Paladin 6/Blackguard 4/Taker 10 for Charisma x3 to saves. 16 cha, +6 item, +4 from tome gets you 26 charisma = +24 bonus to all saves before counting base saves or other items/stats.

[Calthropstu]

Taker Prestige class from dragon magazine gets its Cha bonus to saves and attack rolls as a morale bonus, stacking with divine grace, etc. Could theoretically be something like Evil Paladin 6/Blackguard 4/Taker 10 for Charisma x3 to saves. 16 cha, +6 item, +4 from tome gets you 26 charisma = +24 bonus to all saves before counting base saves or other items/stats.

He specifically said no items or spells.

That's why I went the route I did. Your method caps out at around 30 for the bad saves.

[Maat Mons]

If Dragon Compendium is on the table, the Serenity feat lets you key Divine Grace off of Wisdom instead of Charisma. As far as I can tell, this means you add Wisdom to Will saves twice.

Impure Prince lets you use Wisdom instead of Constitution on Fortitude saves.

There are 3 different LA +0 races that have a +6 to wisdom. If you go all-out on wisdom with a base score of 32 and venerable age, you can hit 32 Wisdom by level 20 without magic items.

All of the above would give you +22 Fort, +11+dex Ref, and +22 Will before adding in your base saves.

Alternately, you could take all the classes that give Charisma to saves and don't explicitly say it doesn't stack with other effects that do the same thing.

All that's 3.5, by the way.