A Player wants to max his Saves at (almost) any cost....

[GrayDeath]

Well, it seems its Saves time (see the other thread^^), but my request is a wee it different.

See, one of our players just lost his Character (Druid) due to sucking at Saving Throws (and rolling badly) for 3 encounters in a row.

Now, the player played Druid for 2 reasons: Being useful just about everywhere, and having a lot of Help "not dying".

He wants to maximize the "not Dying" part now, and his saves, as high as they can go....and is willing to give up almost everything else o achieve that.

Almost because we told him that only going for survivability WILL make his character suck hard.
So he decided that "something martial" should be doable with the prerequs (he doesnt need to be optimized for anything else, ut medium competency is required).

So, we are Level 9 at the moment, the Campaign will likely end around 15.

All SRD Stuff and most "easily got" books are in, the Group is largely neutral, so as long as the Characters dont need to Be CE or LG its fine as well.

Aside from the absoulute best he can get savewise AND avoig´ding simply stacking high Save classes to do so (we are suffering from a Limit on 4 CLasses total per Character thanks to the shenannigans of a former player^^), what would you suggest and why?

Thanks in advance!

PS: most base classes use their PF variants, in case it matters.

[zlefin]

Use ToB and get the various Diamond Mind saves. It's easy to pump those enough that you WILL make the save when you need to. Take warblade so your recovery mechanic is decent and you can recover the saves well enough whenever you use one of them; so unless you get hit with two things targetting the same save in the same round you'll be fine.

once you can, take the steady concentration feat from races of stone so you can take 10 on concentration checks for even more security. (at least from what I read elsewhere, don't have the source myself atm)

[DeTess]

.

once you can, take the steady concentration feat from races of stone so you can take 10 on concentration checks for even more security. (at least from what I read elsewhere, don't have the source myself atm)
(In case the OP is unfamiliar with ToB, there's a set of low-level maneuvers that allow you to take a save as a concentration check).

Steady concentration would indeed alliw you to take 10 on concentration, and anyone with 8 ranks in concentration can take it. Alternatively or in addition to this idea you could be psionic and expend your focus to take 15 instead.

[denthor]

Your saves can be maxed out with items

DC 14 you have a +15 to the roll.

A natural 1 comes up. You blow the save.

I watched four players roll natural 1 on six different rolls in near succession.

Really nothing you can due it is a dice game.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd actually use a druid.
- you get two good base saves (fort and will)
- you focus on Wis for an even better will save
- you replace your Con and Dex with your WS forms Con/Dex for fort/reflex saves (unless PF WS changed that and you're using that)
- you get to cast the Greater/Superior Resistance spells for a +3/+6 resistance bonus on all saves, saving you the gold you'd have spend on a Vest of Resistance to spend on other save items.
- you get to cast Owl's Insight for even better will saves before hard fights.

After that it's mostly items. I'll just link the handbook. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=188)
Basically get a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor for +4 insight to will saves (10k),
Empyrean (BoED), Mindarmor (MIC) Bracers of Armor +1 (12k) that you buff with Magic Vestment for a +2-5 sacred bonus to all saves and another +5 untyped to will saves against mind-affecting as an immediate action 3/day,
the Lesser Armor Crystals of Mind Cloaking/Lifekeeping (3k each) that you attach to your Bracers of Armor and a Robe that's also enchanted as Bracers of Armor +1 for another +3 competence against mind-affecting/death spells & energy drain
and a Necklace of Natural Attacks +1 (SS) enchanted with Spellstrike (MIC, +1 bonus) (8k) that you buff with Greater Magic Weapon.

That's a +5 to all saves, another + 5 to all against spells & spell-likes, another +4 to will, another +3 against mind-affecting or death spells with the option to spend an immediate action to get another +5 against mind-affecting will saves. Total cost: 40k, which is rather affordable for what you get (though you'll need 12k more for 3 Wilding Clasps). They all stack and it's not like you have to buy it all at once.

If you have a cleric in the party they can also cast (Mass) Conviction for another +5 morale to all saves, as long as you're not immune to mind-affecting.

Then if you're still worried you can get a Luck Blade (~22k, 1 reroll/day) or put Doomwarding (+38,500gp, PGtF, 7 charges) on your weapon for rerolls when you happen to fail.
You can also spend a feat on Planar Touchstone for the Catalogues of Enlightenment to get the Luck domain (1 reroll/day) or Pride domain (reroll any 1 on a save).


Really nothing you can due it is a dice game.
That's what rerolls are for. That turns the 5% failure chance into a 0,25% failure chance. Pride domain is ideal but it'll cost you a feat, but i've had good experiences with the Doomwarding enhancement. It's a big initial investment but the option to use it more than 1/day makes me favor it over the Luck Blade. There's always more treasure after all.

[GrayDeath]

@ sleepyphoenix: You did read the Level area, yes?

He is not aiming to maximize his saves in the area of Level 12+, he wants to maximize them NOW and later.


And yeah, we know of the Diamond Mind Maneuvers, but since they are a finite ressource/turn/Ecounter, he much prefers very high saves ina ddition (he will likely stak Warblade and Swordsage for 2 of his classes, to get them and higher saves, methinks based on what he mentioned). Although I will point him towards the feat, to make sure.

So please keep em coming! )

[weckar]

Paladin of freedom 2 / Warlock 1 with devil's own luck gets you cha to all saves AND an additional cha to one save that can be reassigned with a standard action. Technically at this point the circlet of persuasion should also buff them, buuuut...

[sleepyphoenixx]

@ sleepyphoenix: You did read the Level area, yes?

He is not aiming to maximize his saves in the area of Level 12+, he wants to maximize them NOW and later.

I did add that you don't have to buy it all at once.

WBL for a 9th level character is 36k gp. A druid doesn't need any equipment besides a Wis booster + Wilding Clasp (which also boosts his will save), so he's uniquely suited to spending all his money on save boosters if he wants to in addition to having a good base chassis.
Any other character not only has to spend points on high Con/Dex, they also have to buy armor, weapons and so on. Sure, you have to buy a few Wilding Clasps, but if you use the MIC item stacking rules you can get away with 2-3.

[Eldariel]

I'd honestly either look into a Druid again, as Sleepy-Phoenix suggested, or go Cleric. Luck-domain and Pride-domain are paramount to not failing saves. As are spells: Clerics have a lot of ways to pump theirs with magic (again, just check Phoenix's post for the quick'n'dirty). DMM: Persist Cleric can get ungodly numbers but even without that, spells like Tyche's Touch [Lost Empires of Faerun], Greater/Superior Resistance [Spell Compendium] and shorter duration buffs go a long way, combined with Alter Fortune [Player's Handbook II] to guarantee rerolls in case you roll two 1s or something.


I did add that you don't have to buy it all at once.

WBL for a 9th level character is 36k gp. A druid doesn't need any equipment besides a Wis booster + Wilding Clasp (which also boosts his will save), so he's uniquely suited to spending all his money on save boosters if he wants to in addition to having a good base chassis.
Any other character not only has to spend points on high Con/Dex, they also have to buy armor, weapons and so on. Sure, you have to buy a few Wilding Clasps, but if you use the MIC item stacking rules you can get away with 2-3.

You can also get Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp for superb touch AC in some high Dex form. The other usual hard-to-buff defense.

[zlefin]

@ sleepyphoenix: You did read the Level area, yes?

He is not aiming to maximize his saves in the area of Level 12+, he wants to maximize them NOW and later.


And yeah, we know of the Diamond Mind Maneuvers, but since they are a finite ressource/turn/Ecounter, he much prefers very high saves ina ddition (he will likely stak Warblade and Swordsage for 2 of his classes, to get them and higher saves, methinks based on what he mentioned). Although I will point him towards the feat, to make sure.

So please keep em coming! )

how often does he actually get hit by two things in the same turn targetting the same save that both need to be avoided?

[Deophaun]

Does your party have a cleric? If so, your save maximizer should buy him a level 1 and a level 2 pearl of power in exchange for having conviction and benediction cast on him (or convince him to use a third level slot for mass conviction on the whole party), which will give him +5 to his saves, with benediction even allowing for a one-time reroll (that ends the spell) if he wiffs the roll. Buy the cleric a metamagic rod of extend to have them last for three hours.

[sleepyphoenixx]

how often does he actually get hit by two things in the same turn targetting the same save that both need to be avoided?

It doesn't need to be the same save (you only have one immediate action after all) or even in the same turn (in case you're a Swordsage).
And that's assuming you didn't already use your immediate action for something else.

Of course it depends partially on how your DM designs encounters, but in general relying completely on the Diamond Mind maneuvers and having bad saves otherwise is a good way to die.
They're a fantastic supplement (and cheap to buy on a ring too), but not a replacement for boosting your saves.

[zlefin]

It doesn't need to be the same save (you only have one immediate action after all) or even in the same turn (in case you're a Swordsage).
And that's assuming you didn't already use your immediate action for something else.

Of course it depends partially on how your DM designs encounters, but in general relying completely on the Diamond Mind maneuvers and having bad saves otherwise is a good way to die.
They're a fantastic supplement (and cheap to buy on a ring too), but not a replacement for boosting your saves.

oh, right, they all use the immediate. I was assuming warblade though, so the recovery would be fine.

[RaiKirah]

If you're staying away from casters I'd also jump on the Paladin 2/Warblade X bandwagon. Warblade recovery mechanic is good for being able to use the Diamond Mind manuever again in an encounter, and the rest of the chassis is good as well. Pumping Charisma let's you also party face decently, and you could then also dip Warlock as has been suggested or Marshal. Also, a single level of Warrior Skald sets you up for Song of the White Raven to get Bardic music uses from Warblade levels, which sets up further charisma synergy (Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Haunting Melody, Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, etc...). Mix and match to flavor.

[Ramza00]

Tyche Touch (Cleric 2) +4 Sacred Bonus to 1st Saving Throw, then +3, followed by +2, lastly +1, then spell ends. 24 hour duration. Lost Empires of Faerun.
Conviction (Cleric 1) and Mass Conviction (Cleric 3). +3 Moral Bonus at this Character Level, but it is +2 at CL 1, +3 at CL 6, +4 at CL 12, and +5 at CL 18. Lasts 10 min / level
Benediction (Cleric 2) gives your allies (you can't cast it on yourself) +2 Luck Bonus. Plus a reroll choose the best ability you can use 1 time ending the spell duration. Reroll applies to any single attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check and you get to choose when to use it after you see the first roll.
Luck domain gives you 1 free reroll per day. If you are not a cleric grab this with Planar Touchstone Feat where you go to the Catalogues of Enlightenment location and gain 1 domain ability.
Destiny Domain ability is a 1 a day free reroll except it takes an immediate action not a free action and it can't apply to yourself. (I see this as a counterpart to Luck, one for you, one for friends.)
Spellstrike (+1 weapon enhancement) + Magic Weapon Greater. Free action. You can put your enhancement bonus to your saves against spells and spell like abilities for 1 round. Aka it is similar to defending. Great on a staff, spiked gauntlet, armor spikes, etc.
Empyreal (+2 armor enhancement) + Magic Vestment. BoED You can put your armor enhancement not as a bonus to AC but instead as a sacred bonus to saving throws. Does not stack with Tyche Touch for both are sacred bonuses.


And as sleepyphoenixx already pointed out via giving a link to this handbook there are lots of magic items that can boost your saves.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=188

But seriously a wand of Tyche Touch is 4,500 GP for 50 charges so have this as a backup.

Then either be a cleric yourself or provide magic items for your cleric out of your own WBL such as pearls of power, rods of extend lesser, etc and have Benediction, Conviction / Mass Conviction always up. Take the Luck Domain yourself via Cleric or use a feat to grab Planar Touchstone (Catalogue of Enlightment and choose Luck Domain.)

If you need more than 1 reroll a day (luck domain) there are plenty of magic items in that handbook such as backup use 1 and destroy the item (Phaant's Luckstone costs 1,000 GP), Mantle of Second Chances, Luck Blade, etc.

Your PC has options and while it can take 1/4th to 1/2th his wealth / feats depending on the choices he makes it really does not take all of his resources.

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This is not counting stuff like taking a 2 level dip into Paladin for Divine Grace / Prestige Paladin and so on.

[Asmotherion]

Honestly, at Level 9? I'd just play a Wizard or Sorcerer and Polymorph into a Troll when the battle starts. I suggest the Cave Troll from MM III

This things have a ton of Constitution, Fast Healing, and are accessible at your Level. They'll also retain their Base saves and Mental Scores, so this means a good Will Save.

Meager Reflex Save though, so his weak point will be Fireballs, as should with every Troll.

Or just go for Greater Invisibility and focus on Delivering Touch Attacks. That's always a better Survivability plan than being the most threatening thing in the room that everyone will try to Kill With Fire... Literally.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you need more than 1 reroll a day (luck domain) there are plenty of magic items in that handbook such as backup use 1 and destroy the item (Phaant's Luckstone costs 1,000 GP), Mantle of Second Chances, Luck Blade, etc.

The Mantle of Second Chances is cheap (relatively), but it has the issue that it takes an immediate action to activate.
There's also the even cheaper Amulet of Fortune Prevailing (MIC, 5k) but it has the same issue.
Imo you're probably better off using that on something that boosts your save instead like the Mindarmor property, the Diamond Mind rings or the Headband of Conscious Effort.
Or a Ring of Nine Lives if you can afford one - that's the ultimate in saving throw protection, though at 5k/charge it's more of a high level option.

The Greater Lifekeeping/Mindcloaking Crystals also allow immediate action rerolls, but they also have the issue of requiring +3 armor.
They're a possibility if you're allowed to use Magic Vestment to qualify but otherwise not worth it.

I also forgot about the Luckstones since nobody i've played with ever allowed them. If you can i'd buy several, they're the best option for your money unless you're in a really long campaign.
Otherwise for free/no-action rerolls you're stuck with the more expensive Luckblade for 1/day (though it also gives a +1 Luck bonus to saves), the Doomwarding property (really expensive, only 7 charges) or spending feats for the Luck/Pride domains.



Or just go for Greater Invisibility and focus on Delivering Touch Attacks. That's always a better Survivability plan than being the most threatening thing in the room that everyone will try to Kill With Fire... Literally.
"Don't get hit" is probably the best option. Though watch out for enemies with Blindsight/See Invis/True Seeing.
Using Flyby Attack/Mobile Spellcasting to break LoS/LoE after casting is very good for that too.

[Demidos]

A Petal (LA +2, usually cohort only, so might require some handwaving) Paladin does a pretty dang good job of surviving. They get a huge charisma bonus to all saves.

If I were trying to build a character with INSANE saves, I would probably go...
Petal Paladin of Tyranny (UA variant) 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Blackguard 2/Crusader X, with the pride domain planar touchstone feat.

This gets you....
+8 Charisma, Huge Dex for a dex based fighter.
Charisma to all saves twice, or three times vs spells or SLAs (aka most effects requiring saves).
Charisma an additional time to will saves
An Aura of -4 to all saves to adjacent enemies
Crusader Stances + Manuveurs including White Raven Tactics
Reroll 1s on saves.

I don't know what sort of point buy you guys run (or if you run LA buyoff), but if you run buyoff then this is a very solid Assassin/Tank style character that absolutely will not fail saves. You can also throw on other charisma synergies to taste. If your DM doesn't allow the PF paladin to be converted to a LE paladin, you can replace those levels with more crusader I guess. Obviously if petal isnt allowed you can just pick another high charisma race.

I ran a similar character (Petal Paladin of Freedom with Bardic Music Variant 8/Marshal 1/Crusader 1) and it remains one of my favorite builds of all time.

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The build works with only 4 classes (Crusader/Paladin/Blackguard/Hexblade), you'll have to decide if that's too many for your game -- honestly I think blackguard and hexblade are pretty unnecessary, since any Paladin/Crusader combo is going to be sweet (especially with song of the white raven/dragonfire inspiration shenanigans), the rest were just included to basically ensure saves are passed. The petal is a handy trick for boosting charisma (and granting flight/DR) for any dex-based fighter.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If I were trying to build a character with INSANE saves, I would probably go...
Petal Paladin of Tyranny (UA variant) 2/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Blackguard 2/Crusader X, with the pride domain planar touchstone feat.


You only get Aura of Despair at PoT/BG 3, not 2. It also has a 10ft radius.
And if you're taking levels in Hexblade at least stay until 3 for Mettle if not 4 for the Dark Companion ACF for another -2 to saves aura.

You'll want to go PoT 3/Hex 3-4/BG 2/Cru 2/X too (the 2nd level of Crusader after level 8 so you can pick up Thicket of Blades).

It's pretty nice once it gets going. You'll burn 2 feats on crap for BG, but other than that you're free to go for a normal lockdown build to keep enemies in your aura.
The only downside is that you can't go SAD on Cha since you're still a melee character. Unless you like being a walking aura which doesn't sound much fun to me.

[Ramza00]

The Mantle of Second Chances is cheap (relatively), but it has the issue that it takes an immediate action to activate.
There's also the even cheaper Amulet of Fortune Prevailing (MIC, 5k) but it has the same issue.

Yes it stinks that Mantle of Second Chances and Amulet of Fortune Prevailing are immediate actions not free actions. Yet I do not see much of an issue. Here is why.

I believe in the layering of saves if your goal is to make someone relatively immune to saves. Luck Domain is better in every way, but if you do not have to use the free action reroll of the luck domain having one or both of these magic items allow you to save the Luck Domain for a more true emergency.

And if you used your swift / immediate action to do some form of attack that round, you still have the luck domain.

Remember to be flexible, to be https://i.imgflip.com/2fr7rm.jpg

For example you may want to change your tactics or take the rest of the day off once you use your Luck Domain free action re-roll. Or at least allow yourself to have a free immediate action. (Remember you can always use next round's immediate action.)

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Sidenote I forgot about the Goliath Race having a two feat chain that allows you to reroll saves 3 times a day. It is part of a feat chain.

Auspicious Marking requires Goliath, Dead Feat required to take other feats in the chain, +2 to Cha skills with other Goliaths.

Markings of the Blessed requires Auspicious Marking reroll saves 3 x times a day, take the better of the two results.
Markings of the Hunter requires Auspicious Marking reroll initiative 3 x times a day, take the better of the two results.
Markings of the Warrior requires Auspicious Marking reroll attack 3 x times a day, take the better of the two results.
Markings of the Maker requires Auspicious Marking reroll skill checks 3 x times a day, take the better of the two results.
Markings of the Magi requires Auspicious Marking reroll caster level checks 3 x times a day, take the better of the two results.

So Two Feats, an +1 ECL race, and either a level in Cleric (Luck Domain) or Planar Touchstone Catalogue of Enlightment allows you to reroll your saves 4 times a day and choose the best result. Throw some magic items / spells to actually boost saves (Tyche Touche is a cheap 4500 gp wand) and you have to be very unlucky to die due to a roll.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes it stinks that Mantle of Second Chances and Amulet of Fortune Prevailing are immediate actions not free actions. Yet I do not see much of an issue. Here is why.

I believe in the layering of saves if your goal is to make someone relatively immune to saves. Luck Domain is better in every way, but if you do not have to use the free action reroll of the luck domain having one or both of these magic items allow you to save the Luck Domain for a more true emergency.

And if you used your swift / immediate action to do some form of attack that round, you still have the luck domain.
The mantle and amulet aren't exactly free. 17k is a pretty substantial chunk of money for more than half the game.
You'll probably get more mileage out of your gold - and your immediate actions - if you buy a Minor Ring of the Diamond Mind (3k) for Mind Over Body or Moment of Perfect Mind, which are usable 1/encounter.
A decent Con (and maybe a cheap +5 skill item) mean a concentration check is very likely to just autopass most saves and the maneuvers don't autofail on a 1.

It's not that they wouldn't be nice to have just in case, but gold isn't infinite. They're not worth the cost when compared to the alternatives.

There comes a point where you have to say "i'm safe enough" (or more likely "i've spend enough on saves") and focus on actually defeating your enemies. Good saves don't kill monsters after all.


Sidenote I forgot about the Goliath Race having a two feat chain that allows you to reroll saves 3 times a day. It is part of a feat chain.

Auspicious Marking requires Goliath, Dead Feat required to take other feats in the chain, +2 to Cha skills with other Goliaths.

There's also 2 feats for that in Complete Scoundrel. Survivor's Luck and Unbelievable Luck also give 3 rerolls/day and a +2 luck bonus on your weakest save. They're immediate actions though.
And they have the same "not actually worth the resources you invest" problem as the MoSC and AoFP.