So You Want to Gaslight an NPC

[dragoeniex]

Great! So do I. Care to toss suggestions?

To set the stage: My about-to-be lv 11 Whispers bard has found himself dropped into a high council position after our wizard recently became king of a country. The kingdom has some financial strains, a real racism problem against elves (we are both half-elf), and is trying to prepare to either make or avoid war.

My bard has expertise in persuasion, deception, insight, and is an ex-spy who knows some of the political landscape, so he's been helping majorly swing things in our party's favor. Set up a trade arrangement here, matchmake between countries there, slap eagle's splendor and inspiration on the stressed king before speeches...

But a prominent noble- the ring-leader of the opposition- has been a persistent pill and is stupidly rich enough that his family can res him on short order. Instead of trying to take him out assassin-style, it seems more fun to orchestrate a fall from grace.

The new chancellor will either drive this man to madness or the appearance of it. Here's the beginnings of a major gaslighting spree:



Meeting #1 - bard uses prestidigitation at a council meeting to make the noble's wine taste like poison. Step over after he's made a scene, acting confused, and down the rest. Gets annoyed and snaps at him to bring his own next time if he's going to complain about drink quality.

Meeting #2 - bard uses upcast major illusion to make a concentration-free duplicate of himself. Turns invisible ahead of the meeting and has the illusion taunt now-suspicious rival on the way in. Maps the illusion over his invisible-but-still-solid form and carries on like normal until the noble realizes he can see through the bard. Waits for noble to call him out, possibly ducking tossed objects, and generally goads the noble into coming up and shoving/hitting him to prove he's not there. Lets the illusion drop after it and he have both hit the floor, looking appropriately shocked at this unprovoked assault. Calls guards to escort noble out and cool his head.

Meeting #3 - bard is a perfect angel and lets noble wait for something bad to happen.

Meeting #4 - bard resumes screwing with him even harder.



The DM is really happy when players get creative with spells or mind games, and with the bard's +ridiculous to the social stats and dex checks illusion manipulation will require, odds are he'll love bouncing off things like this. Not risk-free, but I'm excited and want to really play with this between encounters! Here are my available (seemingly relevant) spells:

Cantrip Minor illusion, message, prestidigitation. Lv 1 Disguise self, puppet, speak with animals (1/day). Lv2 Enhance ability, levitate (1/day). Lv 3 Invisibility (1/day), major image, tongues, dispel magic, counterspell, fly (1/day). Lv 4 Dimension door. Lv 5 Animate objects will be online this coming level, same as upcast major illusion (which will take the lv 6 slot).

More than willing to disguise or charm my character's way into other settings. So how would you get evil with this?

[krugaan]

Shucks, you can't do the 'ol disguise self -> friends trick.

That's always great at destroying reputations.

[JackPhoenix]

Neither of the ideas work. The first requires you to cast a spell in the presence of the others without anyone realizing that the noble started complaining about the taste just afterwards, and also requires the noble to know how poison tastes like, which is... unlikely.

The other either has the noble alone, in which case nobody will notice him acting "strange", or have other people around who would also be able to see through the illusion, revealing your trickery.

[Tanarii]

Second what JackPhoenix said.

Unless in the second case the noble for some reason figures out the illusion by Investigaion check, instead of physical interaction. IMO the latter reveals the illusion to anyone that sees it.

How does your DM rule non-opposed social checks? The DMG recommended table only goes up to DC 20 tasks, so while it'd be very easy to accomplish those otherwise hard tasks, huge bonuses won't let you do more than the most difficult thing on that table. Of course, persuading a hostile creature to do something that carries minor risk or sacrifice on a 8 (or lower) with advantage on the roll from Enhance Ability (Cha) and adding bardic insp is pretty nice.

OTOh if your DM extends the table up to DC 30 to include possibilities from the other tables, you can take a stab at getting a hostile creature to do something that includes significant risk or sacrifice.

[Loreni333]

Convince and pay birds to follow him around consistently, staying outside wherever he typically would be, cawing outside his windows all night, by promising to feed them breadcrumbs in the local park each time. Anyone observing will feel he's either the crazy person who is convinced that birds have it out for him or it's some sort of terrible bad omen about him.

Doing stuff with animals in D&D is great.

[1Pirate]

I think Phantasmal Force is more what you're looking for with meeting #2. Only he can see it, so as long as no one sees you cast it, go nuts. Speaking of nuts...


and also requires the noble to know how poison tastes like, which is... unlikely.

Disagree with this bit. Burnt almonds and cyanide is a pretty well-known trope. Highly likely the noble has heard of the cultural equivalent(note that the trope doesn't have to be true, the noble just has to think it's true, or that it has some validity).

Can you get access to everyone else's cup without suspicion? Sometimes it's better to (metaphorically)poison the whole wine bottle and just make sure your friends get the antidote.

[dragoeniex]

Shucks, you can't do the 'ol disguise self -> friends trick.

That's always great at destroying reputations.

Heh, that is a neat trick! But yeah, this character was built to not have any actual mind-control effects. Enforcing the idea he needs to genuinely convince people of something, and if it works, that can be more lasting long-term.




Neither of the ideas work. The first requires you to cast a spell in the presence of the others without anyone realizing that the noble started complaining about the taste just afterwards, and also requires the noble to know how poison tastes like, which is... unlikely.

The other either has the noble alone, in which case nobody will notice him acting "strange", or have other people around who would also be able to see through the illusion, revealing your trickery.



It's fudgy, agreed; this is the kind of thing where I run uses by with the DM first or toss out to see if he likes it in play. We're a little looser with what can be done to set things up, and in return, NPCs get that grace too. More fun, imo!

In this case, prestidigitation would be cast ahead of the meeting (lasts an hour) and be brought out. Taste very bitter and off, and be the only one. Not necessarily a major reaction expected, but hoping for some.

For the illusion/invisibility thing, it's definitely stretching. But if I say something to make the one guy suspicious on the way in- get him watching me more closely. The DM typically only has people roll investigation if they've got reason to doubt or look especially closely. And yeah, if he starts acting out, it's still a risk for the others to see. A lot of this will be on-the-fly misdirection, couple dex/char checks to see if it can be pulled off, etc.

There's an elasticity to setups like these, in the game, where the DM encourages trying to get creative and stretchy. After all, he wants the excuse to turn it back on us. :)





How does your DM rule non-opposed social checks?

Good question. Typically, he sets a DC on the fly, but I don't know what they are or what the effects can/will be. He says he adjusts the DC based on what is being said or done in-character (so playing to the role is important), and that seems mostly true. Even a natural 20, though, will only net you the best outcome you ever could have had with what you said/did. It could take a couple of good checks/arguments in a row to sway someone who was dead-set against you before.

Roping in a hostile beast and siccing them might be doable, actually! Though I'd like to be subtler than outright attacks. Will have to see if there are any palace dogs that can be made to hate the guy's guts.

[dragoeniex]

Convince and pay birds to follow him around consistently, staying outside wherever he typically would be, cawing outside his windows all night, by promising to feed them breadcrumbs in the local park each time. Anyone observing will feel he's either the crazy person who is convinced that birds have it out for him or it's some sort of terrible bad omen about him.

Doing stuff with animals in D&D is great.

Hahaha! That's beautiful. I love it. I will absolutely try it out.

Our wizard king also has magic mouth and can definitely take the time to plant some around our castle and set them to trigger specifically when the noble is the only one in the room. Have fun with the talking ceiling only you can hear, buddy.



I think Phantasmal Force is more what you're looking for with meeting #2. Only he can see it, so as long as no one sees you cast it, go nuts. Speaking of nuts...



Disagree with this bit. Burnt almonds and cyanide is a pretty well-known trope. Highly likely the noble has heard of the cultural equivalent(note that the trope doesn't have to be true, the noble just has to think it's true, or that it has some validity).

Can you get access to everyone else's cup without suspicion? Sometimes it's better to (metaphorically)poison the whole wine bottle and just make sure your friends get the antidote.

Phantasmal Force could be fun to throw in later too, actually. Get more nonsensical as things progress. That's a good idea; I'll have to see if said wizard king has that, because he very well might.

As for the cup, sure. I live in the castle, move around during setup frequently, and since prestidigitation can last for an hour, there shouldn't be any trouble flavoring the noble's ahead of time. There are also one or two staff members who know I'm a competent caster (used puppet to pull a guard through a mob and warn him about some explosives set by terrorists, etc) but don't say anything because I'm nice to them and the noble is a jerk.

So those one or two staff members who know and just quietly enjoy the show can also help move things around if needed.

[Unoriginal]

Is there any reason why it'd make the guy look mad rather than just cursed or harassed by a spellcaster/spirit/monster?

D&D people would be aware that creatures, magic or curses can have effects similar to this.

[Kane0]

Is there any reason why it'd make the guy look mad rather than just cursed or harassed by a spellcaster/spirit/monster?

D&D people would be aware that creatures, magic or curses can have effects similar to this.

Alternatively, actually getting him cursed or whatnot is also a viable option if he never thinks to get it removed.

[Unoriginal]

Alternatively, actually getting him cursed or whatnot is also a viable option if he never thinks to get it removed.

Why would never think that?

When you have a lot of gold and some weird stuff keep happening to you, you first try the temple to see if the gods' magic can help, and if not you hire people to solve this.

[Crgaston]

I think between your class abilities, Mislead, and Modify Memory you have all the tools you need.

Use Words of Terror to make the noble frightened of an ally with whom he is conspiring, or before an important meeting of whomever the noble is supposed to be hosting/negotiating with, or of the servant who is serving him dinner. And if he makes his save, he has no idea you even messed with him. This is probably your best tool for long term gaslighting just for that factor alone.

Mislead to mess with him while the king and court are your alibi. You were here the whole time! Or to overhear a private conversation.

Modify Memory can make him remember a violent or romantic encounter with someone important but EXTREMELY inappropriate.
Awkwardness ensues.

[dragoeniex]

Is there any reason why it'd make the guy look mad rather than just cursed or harassed by a spellcaster/spirit/monster?

D&D people would be aware that creatures, magic or curses can have effects similar to this.

A good point, but of course, the existence of magic doesn't take away the existence of mental problems and/or unreasonable acts. And if I can rile him up enough to start acting in brash ways, that helps in the ongoing battle of who can out-suave whom.

When someone is being a problem in a political landscape, you don't just oust them. You string together an excuse and then ally yourself with people who have things to gain from seeing that problem person ousted as well.



Alternatively, actually getting him cursed or whatnot is also a viable option if he never thinks to get it removed.

Appreciate the cursing thought, but he does have a personal cleric on-staff. And also messing with him just seems more fun.



I think between your class abilities, Mislead, and Modify Memory you have all the tools you need.

Use Words of Terror to make the noble frightened of an ally with whom he is conspiring, or before an important meeting of whomever the noble is supposed to be hosting/negotiating with, or of the servant who is serving him dinner. And if he makes his save, he has no idea you even messed with him. This is probably your best tool for long term gaslighting just for that factor alone.

Mislead to mess with him while the king and court are your alibi. You were here the whole time! Or to overhear a private conversation.

Modify Memory can make him remember a violent or romantic encounter with someone important but EXTREMELY inappropriate.
Awkwardness ensues.

Words of Terror is amazing. While the old (corrupt and incompetent) king was alive, I may or may not have cleared half the guards in his banquet hall out by striking up casual conversation with one, making him terrified of his king, then slipping back to the gossip mill and dropping rumors about how suspicious he was acting. King eventually asked to have a word with him, aaaaand the attempt to get him to come over went about as well as you'd expect. Two of his comrades tackled him when he bolted and took him off for questioning.

...In all fairness, I did find excuses to let him out after we came into power. And it did get him out of the potential "casualty of royal assassination" range.

Using it to get the noble paranoid of random staff is a great use, haha. And I also like your thoughts on mislead! Don't have that one, but give it a couple levels, and I'll have project image. If he's still around by then, deeeefinitely using that.

Modify memory would be entirely appropriate! Except the bard was built to have no outright mind-altering or controlling features, since I wanted the challenge of actually convincing people of everything.

[Kornaki]

The wine one seems weak. If someone was complaining their glass of wine was bad, I would think the crazy guy is the one who marches over and downs the whole thing just to prove a point.

[saeval]

I know your wizard king buddy is in charge, but does the nation have any sort of laws regarding magical manipulation? Most settings I've played in have had some pretty draconian policies regarding magical manipulation in politics. Even just that cantrip could be a Huge Deal if you get caught.

If Wizard King can just pardon you, why can't he just eliminate this rival? at a political council the guy wouldn't have an army of supporters around him. King can call him traitor then and there with little issue.

[Kane0]

You also dont have to go directly for him, you can undermine his support too.
His faithful butler of decades resigns, a family member of his is caught in a scandal, one of his most staunch supporters attacks another in a fit of rage, his servants become increasingly uncomfortable around him, a few rumors about a bastard son rise from the docks, etc.

Edit: I wonder if you could apply something like hallucinatory terrain to your advantage, so he ends up weaving through illusionary chairs, tables, etc while everyone else sees nothing or reaching for items that arent there amongst those that are, like a poker at a fireplace.

[noob]

Edit: I wonder if you could apply something like hallucinatory terrain to your advantage, so he ends up weaving through illusionary chairs, tables, etc while everyone else sees nothing or reaching for items that arent there amongst those that are, like a poker at a fireplace.

Mirage arcana and the like can possibly kill the citizens of an entire city in one casting (by drowning them in illusory water since the faq said it worked).
So expect people to cast detect magic and the like(with scrolls or wands if they have no casters around) if they suspect such powerful magic is used.
And if someone is found guilty of using such powerful and dangerous magic without orders that person will be probably executed.

[dragoeniex]

The noble is a lord, and lords/ladies of the various cities do the feudal thing here where they each govern their area and keep some personal troops. The king is given a portion as tribute from everyone, but if enough of them decide to rise up against you, it's not going to go great.

We have phased in a good handful of key supporters, though.

That aside, this noble isn't currently one of the main story antagonists. Think of him as political Gary Oaks (competent, admired home-turf rival) crossed with Team Rocket (has no character levels and breaks ridiculously easy) villain. A lot of this is more having narrative fun screwing with him and upping stakes over time as he repeatedly fails to play nice.

So creative "messing with someone" tactics is what I was primarily after here. Which there have been really nice examples of! Less "must annihilate this guy" and more "alright, since you didn't stay a convenient casualty, let's have fun with this. I will make it my mission to turn you from rival to comedic relief."


Mmm, legality wouldn't be as big a concern here as retaliation would. But even then, becoming a target for some return-fire tactics or attacks would be something interesting to play with. I am so down for people trying to make life hell in return, haha. It's not the goal, of course, but I like ridiculous, escalating conflicts.

As nonplussed as the people are to have someone with Elven blood on the throne, they seem relieved that at least this wizard king is around as powerful as he claims. His late father was as magically threatening as an egomaniacal stage magician.


Messing with his supporters some could be fun! Keeping that somewhat limited, since shady bard doesn't like involving people who aren't part of a problem. (This would also keep him from doing anything that would cause collateral damage like a hallucinatory flood-- holy halibut, did not know you could even do that.)


Also on the consideration board if he becomes too big a threat: arrange one more accident, steal his shadow, wait until he's res'd again and find an appropriate time/place to appear as him and ruin his reputation.


I appreciate the thoughts and feedback, all! Got a pocketful of concepts to try or think over, and some valid concerns with current tactics.

[JackPhoenix]

If the main reason to avoid just murdering him is "he's rich enough to pay for a cleric", just cut his head off. He now requires level 7 spell to bring back. Or have the wizard turn him into a zombie... True Resurrection is the only way to get back from that, and you may be able to blame someone else, if you keep your necromantic abilities secret. And if there are level 17+ divine casters on his side, you have bigger problems to worry about.

And even True Resurrection won't work if you simply steal and hide (but not destroy) the corpse.

[Sigreid]

I guess I don't know why you don't go with more traditional methods, like framing him for treason. A letter of correspondence in his hand found in the possession of a spy from a hostile power and such can quickly get even his parents to disown him to protect the family.

Plant evidence that others find!

[Ventruenox]

Create scandals by using impersonators. Even if it isn't your character doing the dirty work, this is a very viable strategy. An antagonist of this level of influence has people doing his bidding. You have one of your henchmen (or use spell scrolls yourself) pull the Disguise Self + Friends combo in the guise of one of this rival's trusted lieutenants attempting to make questionable purchases with a respectable merchant, or be seen making dealings with disreputable ones. Better yet, both. The point is to create gossip that puts the perception of the rival's loyalty to the crown into question.

A Subtle Spell Sorceror in the room with the Message cantrip can also wreak havoc by whispering crazy instructions to the rival until the rival creates a scene by loudly arguing with the "voices" that no one else hears. If this happens during important meetings, all the better.

Acquire samples of the rivals handwriting, then forge your own letters to be intercepted by authorities that appear as having been written by him. If you can create a copy of his seal, that would add credibility.

Have an Arcane Thief break into his house, cast Sleep on the rival, then relocate him to various locations and leave evidence of wrongdoing on his person. A bloody knife or blood in/on/around his person should be sufficient to have your rival questioning his supposed actions during these blackout periods.