Grapple Monk Mechanic question

[suplee215]

I am trying to make a homebrew class for a grapple monk and I am not sure how to make the key mechanic work. Basically, I am stuck between 3 ideas. The goal is to essentially allow dex to be used for grapple. Also, I do want to make this a dex grapple option rather then a strength monk option as I can see dex representing technique over brute strength.


1. Allow the monk subclass to use their dex modifier for Athletic checks. Outside of grapples and shoves I can see this being used out of combat. Fluff wise I see the monk using leverage to move heavy objects most untrained people won't.
2. Replace the Athletic requirement with Acrobatics for grapple and shoving purposes. This does something similar to the above but instead of replacing the stat for an ability check it just replaces it. I almost picture Rey Mysterio type of take downs and fighting with this route.
3. This might just be too powerful especially as monsters are bad enough as is against grapple builds but this seems closest to an actual mechanic in the Player's Handbook. This adds a bonus to all rolls to grapple, shove, or resist one of those to equal to your dexerity modifier (similar to the Thief adding strength to dex to jumps). I also see a benefit here where focusing on strength will also help you or at least not make it fee completely useless and more variety in monks might come.

Which option do you think is simplest and causes the least amount of problems from a DM standpoint? And please feel free to mention any exploits for any I may not be thinking of.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Variant of option a and b. While grappling you can use dexterity or strength for your athletics check.

[igor140]

Maybe I'm too lenient with these things (I'm fairly new to DM'ing), but I would lean somewhere between option B and C.

I typically approach these things with the mindset, "What is the PC trying to do with this character?" If he's basing this off Hulk Hogan, it needs to be STR-based Atheltics grappling. If he's basing this off Jet Li, I could see an argument for DEX-based Acrobatics grappling... but you need to be careful with that. The purpose of grappling (in DnD anyway) is to physically restrain the target. That inherently requires strength. Jet Li may use his agility to dexterously throw/ knock his opponent to the ground, but he rarely physically holds them there.

Point in case, we have a PC who wanted a rogue "similar to Garrett from the Thief series". It hasn't come up yet, but his grapple checks would be STR based (and thus not very good; Garrett was actually a pretty crappy fighter). Conversely, there is an NPC (villain) who is a judo-esque ninja/ bounty hunter, who CAN get a DEX-based Acrobatics check to knock the opponent down on his turn. The key difference is that this NPC is not RESTRAINING anyone; he's simply throwing them to the ground.

In your case, it may be even easier, because monks can already knock down opponents using ki points. In such a case, I could see an argument for making grappling DEX-based... up to a point.

It makes sense to have a 20 STR Barbarian who is consistently good at grabbing Ogres by the neck, but not the aforementioned "Jet Li based" character.

[stoutstien]

Monks can grapple, stunning fist equal auto fail on saving thow against it

[Kadesh]

It makes very little sense for Athletics to be replicable by dexterity, that is what Acrobatics is for. Just give them Expertise in Athletics, and let someone invest in Str if they want to do very well at it. A 14 Str Expertise has a +6, the same as an 18 Str standard character.

[Inchoroi]

It makes very little sense for Athletics to be replicable by dexterity, that is what Acrobatics is for. Just give them Expertise in Athletics, and let someone invest in Str if they want to do very well at it. A 14 Str Expertise has a +6, the same as an 18 Str standard character.

I've always been of the opinion that monks should be able to just grapple with Dexterity (Acrobatics), because they're monks. That's just cool. Its always seemed to me in my Kung Fu movie binges that they always "grapple" by bending limbs in ways that they probably shouldn't, which always strikes me as more about Acrobatics—"flexibility"—than straight Athletics.

[Lunali]

I've always been of the opinion that monks should be able to just grapple with Dexterity (Acrobatics), because they're monks. That's just cool. Its always seemed to me in my Kung Fu movie binges that they always "grapple" by bending limbs in ways that they probably shouldn't, which always strikes me as more about Acrobatics—"flexibility"—than straight Athletics.

It bears mentioning that in these movies the characters are typically also very strong. Also, grappling is more akin to grabbing someone by the clothes or shoulder than an arm lock, that would be restraining them instead.

I would say suggest that they take the prodigy feat or some other method of getting expertise in athletics and just continue using strength. The stat is weak enough already, no sense giving them even less reason to put points into it.

[Kadesh]

I've always been of the opinion that monks should be able to just grapple with Dexterity (Acrobatics), because they're monks. That's just cool. Its always seemed to me in my Kung Fu movie binges that they always "grapple" by bending limbs in ways that they probably shouldn't, which always strikes me as more about Acrobatics—"flexibility"—than straight Athletics.

A neuro surgeon can be as dextrous as they come, but it doesn't make them any more capable at stopping someone from moving.

[Citan]

I am trying to make a homebrew class for a grapple monk and I am not sure how to make the key mechanic work. Basically, I am stuck between 3 ideas. The goal is to essentially allow dex to be used for grapple. Also, I do want to make this a dex grapple option rather then a strength monk option as I can see dex representing technique over brute strength.


1. Allow the monk subclass to use their dex modifier for Athletic checks. Outside of grapples and shoves I can see this being used out of combat. Fluff wise I see the monk using leverage to move heavy objects most untrained people won't.
2. Replace the Athletic requirement with Acrobatics for grapple and shoving purposes. This does something similar to the above but instead of replacing the stat for an ability check it just replaces it. I almost picture Rey Mysterio type of take downs and fighting with this route.
3. This might just be too powerful especially as monsters are bad enough as is against grapple builds but this seems closest to an actual mechanic in the Player's Handbook. This adds a bonus to all rolls to grapple, shove, or resist one of those to equal to your dexerity modifier (similar to the Thief adding strength to dex to jumps). I also see a benefit here where focusing on strength will also help you or at least not make it fee completely useless and more variety in monks might come.

Which option do you think is simplest and causes the least amount of problems from a DM standpoint? And please feel free to mention any exploits for any I may not be thinking of.
Hi!

If you're trying to create a homebrew *archetype* (you're not trying to rewrite the whole class I guess? XD) for Monk, I think the best way would be simply...
3rd level: give proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics, allow either DEX or STR.
6th level: use 1 Ki to focus your energy, giving advantage on all STR or DEX checks related to movement or Grapple/Shove.
11th level: give Expertise into Athletics and Acrobatics.
It actually seems too weak imo these are things you can easily achieve with little dips.
Another try:

3/ Proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics. Use 1 Ki to get advantage on all STR/DEX checks until start of next turn.

6/ Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics.
- You can use the Grapple and Shove weapon attack replacement with any weapon attack you make during your turn.
(Idea here is to completely blow into smithereens the artificial restriction made that you can normally swap weapon attack with Shove/Grapple only on Attack action, without requiring the player to take an incomplete feat -Tavern Brawler).

11/ You get advantage on all unarmed attacks you make against a creature you are grappling. (same as above, but here Grappler feat is the target).
When you make an unarmed weapon attack, you can consume 1 Ki to apply the Subduing Strike. This can't be stacked with Stunning Strike.
Subduing Strike: fluff as you like, idea is to have target make a Dexterity saving throw, on a fail, player chooses to apply either the effect of a Grapple, or a Shove, or both.

17/ Size doesn't matter: you can grapple any creature disregarding their size, but you get a 5 points penalty for each size "beyond" the usual limit.
(That way, you can still be functional against every enemy, but this will be a challenge unless you have other people working with you or you are using resources).

What do you think? :)

Other ideas left aside for now:
- "Favored Enemy" like grapple: you are extra good against one kind of enemies: lvl 6 advantage on grapple check, lvl 11 "defensive grapple" (you grapple in such a way that enemy makes attacks against you at disadvantage -possibly too powerful if stacked with above-), lvl 17 no size restriction or penalty.
- Slamming Grapple: you can use grappled creature as a weapon: but I'm not familiar with huge weapons, no precise idea as how to rule this without being overfine.
- Tactical Grapple: as a bonus action, change your posture to either get 3/4 cover from one direction, or impose disadvantage on enemy's first next attack, or block it from making sounds, etc (basically all things that any DM could reasonably allow from player's description, but codified).

[suplee215]

Hi!

If you're trying to create a homebrew *archetype* (you're not trying to rewrite the whole class I guess? XD) for Monk, I think the best way would be simply...
3rd level: give proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics, allow either DEX or STR.
6th level: use 1 Ki to focus your energy, giving advantage on all STR or DEX checks related to movement or Grapple/Shove.
11th level: give Expertise into Athletics and Acrobatics.
It actually seems too weak imo these are things you can easily achieve with little dips.
Another try:

3/ Proficiency in Athletics and Acrobatics. Use 1 Ki to get advantage on all STR/DEX checks until start of next turn.

6/ Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics.
- You can use the Grapple and Shove weapon attack replacement with any weapon attack you make during your turn.
(Idea here is to completely blow into smithereens the artificial restriction made that you can normally swap weapon attack with Shove/Grapple only on Attack action, without requiring the player to take an incomplete feat -Tavern Brawler).

11/ You get advantage on all unarmed attacks you make against a creature you are grappling. (same as above, but here Grappler feat is the target).
When you make an unarmed weapon attack, you can consume 1 Ki to apply the Subduing Strike. This can't be stacked with Stunning Strike.
Subduing Strike: fluff as you like, idea is to have target make a Dexterity saving throw, on a fail, player chooses to apply either the effect of a Grapple, or a Shove, or both.

17/ Size doesn't matter: you can grapple any creature disregarding their size, but you get a 5 points penalty for each size "beyond" the usual limit.
(That way, you can still be functional against every enemy, but this will be a challenge unless you have other people working with you or you are using resources).

What do you think? :)

Other ideas left aside for now:
- "Favored Enemy" like grapple: you are extra good against one kind of enemies: lvl 6 advantage on grapple check, lvl 11 "defensive grapple" (you grapple in such a way that enemy makes attacks against you at disadvantage -possibly too powerful if stacked with above-), lvl 17 no size restriction or penalty.
- Slamming Grapple: you can use grappled creature as a weapon: but I'm not familiar with huge weapons, no precise idea as how to rule this without being overfine.
- Tactical Grapple: as a bonus action, change your posture to either get 3/4 cover from one direction, or impose disadvantage on enemy's first next attack, or block it from making sounds, etc (basically all things that any DM could reasonably allow from player's description, but codified).
Thank for the ideas but I already have a few of my own for other methods. I do not want to use expertise simply because it feels like the easy solution.

[Kadesh]

Ever heard of KISS? Not the band, the acronym - Keep It Simple, Stupid?

Simple is good. Simple is effective. Most Monsters auto restrain, but you'd need that from a significant dip: maybe 6th level. Perhaps you can deal your martial arts damage to any creature you have grappled at the start of their turn as a reaction?