So, did anyone else get the impression that this durkon could be the vampire spirit?

[WolvesbaneIII]

He probably isn't.

I'm going to preface this with it likely isn't.

But assuming the giant doesn't follow all dnd rules, he could have the vampire spirit go to any plane he wants, provided the reasoning for it is supplemented appropriately. Of course most vampire spirits are purged and sent to the negative energy realm. But also most vampires don't absorb their hosts memories like this one did with durkon.

Worse yet, if the gods are clumsy and their secretaries make a mistake, they could send the wrong *durkon to valhalla and what not.

It'd be unfair for the vampire spirit to be undone entirely because he turned good like darth vader at the end of star wars, but I'll respect the rules of the dnd world if thats the case.

Respectfully, Wolvesbane III

[woweedd]

I mean, he technically is, in the sense that, as of the moment of death, the spirit was identical to Durkon in all respects. A perfect clone of his own soul, and, thus, effectively, the same being. However, this "Durkon 2" most likely dissolved back into Negative ENergy, much like an Elemental would.

[Goblin_Priest]

What if, plot twist, the negative energy Durkon goes to Hel, and is being tortured, and needs to be saved!

Or what if the second death counts, and it's considered suicide, and thus not honorable, and Durkon gets sent to Hel right away!?

Oh boy!

[Vingelot]

What I don't understand is what the portal was that Greg went into in the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html).

[Peelee]

Nope. Square teeth. Also, the whole thing with how vampire destruction works, and where the real Durkon spirit would be assuming that theory is true.

But you got the square teeth already.

What I don't understand is what the portal was that Greg went into in the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html).
Not a portal, just Durkon's eye. He's going to it, not through it.

[hroþila]

What I don't understand is what the portal was that Greg went into in the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html).
That's not a portal, that's one of Durkon's eyes. The vampire didn't go into it, I imagine he merely approached it to take a peek and assess the situation.

edit: too slow

[Vingelot]

Ah I see... I don't think there ever was an eye in other strips?

I honestly thought it was a portal :smalltongue: well I guess that makes sense, then.

[martianmister]

"Na, wait... na me. Tha vampire. Och, it's gettin' all jumbled up in me brain who did wha..."

This seems to imply that Durkon have memories of both Durkon and FHPoH.

[Vingelot]

"Na, wait... na me. Tha vampire. Och, it's gettin' all jumbled up in me brain who did wha..."

This seems to imply that Durkon have memories of both Durkon and FHPoH.

But it also implies that it's the actual Durkon an not the vampire (unless he's trying to dissimulate, which might work on minrah, but likely a lot less on thor).

[Gift Jeraff]

I think there might be some long-term repercussions from what happened, but I don't think there will be 2 Durkons.


Ah I see... I don't think there ever was an eye in other strips?

I honestly thought it was a portal :smalltongue: well I guess that makes sense, then.

Eyes were seen here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html

[Peelee]

"Na, wait... na me. Tha vampire. Och, it's gettin' all jumbled up in me brain who did wha..."

This seems to imply that Durkon have memories of both Durkon and FHPoH.

Well, that makes sense for a hijacked body and trapped soul.

[BrooksSut]

He probably isn't.

I'm going to preface this with it likely isn't.

But assuming the giant doesn't follow all dnd rules, he could have the vampire spirit go to any plane he wants, provided the reasoning for it is supplemented appropriately. Of course most vampire spirits are purged and sent to the negative energy realm. But also most vampires don't absorb their hosts memories like this one did with durkon.

Worse yet, if the gods are clumsy and their secretaries make a mistake, they could send the wrong *durkon to valhalla and what not.

It'd be unfair for the vampire spirit to be undone entirely because he turned good like darth vader at the end of star wars, but I'll respect the rules of the dnd world if thats the case.

Respectfully, Wolvesbane III

It hit me the morning after reading it that this is either the vampire spirit or a combined Durkon/Greg spirit... Except that Greg is ALREADY a combined Durkon/Greg spirit. OG Durkon isn't really in a position to be confused about which memories are "his", but Vamp Durkon is EXACTLY in that position. Some of the "Good news/Bad news" we're expecting from Thor might just be that Vampire Durkon has no chance to enter Valhalla because he IS a negative energy spirit. But he has a chance to help right the wrongs he did somehow. That'd totally jive with Thor's "I'm glad to hear you say that" approach.

[Keltest]

It hit me the morning after reading it that this is either the vampire spirit or a combined Durkon/Greg spirit... Except that Greg is ALREADY a combined Durkon/Greg spirit. OG Durkon isn't really in a position to be confused about which memories are "his", but Vamp Durkon is EXACTLY in that position. Some of the "Good news/Bad news" we're expecting from Thor might just be that Vampire Durkon has no chance to enter Valhalla because he IS a negative energy spirit. But he has a chance to help right the wrongs he did somehow. That'd totally jive with Thor's "I'm glad to hear you say that" approach.

Durkon wasn't in control, but his perspective was that of greg, and his memories of the events will be from that perspective. It doesn't strike me as unusual that he would have trouble separating those actions from his own, since he saw them from the perspective of the one doing them.

[Mandor]

I really doubt it. But it would be an interesting twist if not only was this Greg, but if Greg didn't even realize he was Greg, because he was still so merged with Durkon.

But I mean, Thor outright called him "Durkon".
So no.

[martianmister]

But it also implies that it's the actual Durkon an not the vampire (unless he's trying to dissimulate, which might work on minrah, but likely a lot less on thor).

Vampire spirit could be absorbed by Durkon's soul, dissolved just like a drop of honey in an ocean full of beer.

[Stabbey]

Oh! Oh! And what if they're actually still in Girard's pyramid stuck in the Phantasm?

[Rrmcklin]

It'd be unfair for the vampire spirit to be undone entirely because he turned good like darth vader at the end of star wars, but I'll respect the rules of the dnd world if thats the case.

Respectfully, Wolvesbane III

I have to say, I don't see how that's "unfair"; it can easily be argued that Darth Vader got much better than he actually deserved, so while the analogy is fitting, it doesn't necessarily draw me to the same conclusion as you.

[Kish]

It'd be unfair for the vampire spirit to be undone entirely because he turned good like darth vader at the end of star wars, but I'll respect the rules of the dnd world if thats the case.

"Yer me."

Durkon still exists. Therefore, anything good in Greg still exists. If he still had a separate existence from Durkon, the only way you could tell them apart would be Greg being evil.

[Particle_Man]

I don’t see Rich going the David Lynch route here.

[woweedd]

"Yer me."

Durkon still exists. Therefore, anything good in Greg still exists. If he still had a separate existence from Durkon, the only way you could tell them apart would be Greg being evil.

As I said, the spirit, at the time of the vampire's destruction, identical to Durkon. If someone has the same memories, personalty, and thoughts as you, they are you. Thus, the spirit did survive, because Durkon survived, and the two are, in fact, one and the same.

[Peelee]

As I said, the spirit, at the time of the vampire's destruction, identical to Durkon. If someone has the same memories, personalty, and thoughts as you, they are you. Thus, the spirit did survive, because Durkon survived, and the two are, in fact, one and the same.

I contend the vampire spirit was destroyed when Belkar staked the vampire body.

[woweedd]

I contend the vampire spirit was destroyed when Belkar staked the vampire body.
What i'm contented is that, t the time fo staking, the spirit and Durkon were identical, mentally and physically, so it survived...techncially.

[Particle_Man]

As I said, the spirit, at the time of the vampire's destruction, identical to Durkon. If someone has the same memories, personalty, and thoughts as you, they are you. Thus, the spirit did survive, because Durkon survived, and the two are, in fact, one and the same.

One of them felt negative energy swirling around inside him and the other did not so they were different at the moment of staking.

[Stabbey]

It'd be unfair for the vampire spirit to be undone entirely because he turned good like darth vader at the end of star wars, but I'll respect the rules of the dnd world if thats the case.


When was the world, at all, ever perfect and fair? No rules saying everything has to be fair and everyone has to get exactly what was coming to them.

In any case for that moment the spirit was largely Durkon, and agreed with Durkon-prime that the vampire had to be destroyed, and both of them were okay with that. That's about as fair as you can get.

[Keltest]

What i'm contented is that, t the time fo staking, the spirit and Durkon were identical, mentally and physically, so it survived...techncially.

If I have two identical glasses, and I smash one of them, did both of them survive?

[Stabbey]

If I have two identical glasses, and I smash one of them, did both of them survive?

Did both glasses occupy the exact same space and time?

[Kish]

One of them felt negative energy swirling around inside him and the other did not so they were different at the moment of staking.
Really? Which one said "I don't feel negative energy"?

[Keltest]

Did both glasses occupy the exact same space and time?
No, but neither did the two Durkons.

[Stabbey]

No, but neither did the two Durkons.

Really? Prove it. Find the physical location where the Imprisoned-Durkon and the Vampire-infused-with-Durkon is located Where in Durkon's body are the two distinct spots where Imprisoned-Durkon and the Vampire-infused-with-Durkon are.

[Keltest]

Really? Prove it. Find the physical location where the Imprisoned-Durkon and the Vampire-infused-with-Durkon is located Where in Durkon's body are the two distinct spots where Imprisoned-Durkon and the Vampire-infused-with-Durkon are.

Is... this a trick question? Can you not see the two different Durkons not overlapping on the panel? They don't even echo each other or anything. The whole point is that theyre distinct entities that happen to function interchangeably.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I have to say, I don't see how that's "unfair"; it can easily be argued that Darth Vader got much better than he actually deserved, so while the analogy is fitting, it doesn't necessarily draw me to the same conclusion as you.

Thats a good point. I never really did see that as being fair.

I would like to see what the giants ruling on greg is. If its a comic panel, even better, but if its a complete non issue to address this this, that'd be awesome.

Durkulas "soul" could be like the one in a million good black dragon, with all the blk dragons being evil, he has ruled out the possibility of one in all of them being good, though with them being genocided, or rather familicided, the likes of 1 being good is less so.

:smalleek:

[Particle_Man]

Really? Which one said "I don't feel negative energy"?

Durkon didn’t have to. That generally is the default position. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Durkon was (or at least felt) tied up and Greg was not. Greg felt free to steer the body in a way that Durkon did not. They thus had different feelings and were different people.

[Stabbey]

Is... this a trick question? Can you not see the two different Durkons not overlapping on the panel? They don't even echo each other or anything. The whole point is that theyre distinct entities that happen to function interchangeably.

But that is not a real place. It's inside Durkon's mind. Durkon has one body. You can't point to bits of Durkon and say "that part is real Durkon, that part is the vampire spirit". That is why your metaphor using two identical physical glasses does not work for this situation.

I honestly don't know why anyone is concerned about the fate of a negative energy spirit created by Hel which was overwhelmed by Durkon briefly and whose existence utterly ceased once Durkon died. The negative energy spirit is dead and gone and good riddance.

[WolvesbaneIII]

But that is not a real place. It's inside Durkon's mind. Durkon has one body. You can't point to bits of Durkon and say "that part is real Durkon, that part is the vampire spirit". That is why your metaphor using two identical physical glasses does not work for this situation.

I honestly don't know why anyone is concerned about the fate of a negative energy spirit created by Hel which was overwhelmed by Durkon briefly and whose existence utterly ceased once Durkon died. The negative energy spirit is dead and gone and good riddance.

Its not that we care, as in a life and death matter of importance, but that we are genuinely curious as to how the giant will write this perspective.

Can a negative energy spirit transcend what he was originally? Can he become a soul that isn't just returned to the negative energy plane?

Case in point, majin buu created a clone of himself and it wasn't tied to him like piccolo and kami, and it died only to have a soul of its own.

But thats kind of a stretch to begin with, so lets ignore that aspect. its really not like this at all.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don’t see Rich going the David Lynch route here.

The good Durkon is in the Lodge and he can't leave. Write it on your character sheet.

[Darth Paul]

Vampire spirit could be absorbed by Durkon's soul, dissolved just like a drop of honey in an ocean full of beer.

This is my most favoritest quote of like forever. At least for this weekend.

[Kornaki]

Yes, perhaps this is negative energy Durkon being sent back while normal Durkon gets to go to Valhalla. And the rest of the comic is spent wondering what it means to be a unique identity when spirit clones and time travel exists, and the giant sips Mai tais on the beach while Howard Taylor finishes the comic. At least the updates will be more frequent.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Yes, perhaps this is negative energy Durkon being sent back while normal Durkon gets to go to Valhalla. And the rest of the comic is spent wondering what it means to be a unique identity when spirit clones and time travel exists, and the giant sips Mai tais on the beach while Howard Taylor finishes the comic. At least the updates will be more frequent.

Maybe not as drastic as that, but the fact durkon is slipping up so much when he was vehemently against the vampire at all times, would lead some to conclude that this durkon is not the real durkon.

Or its a red herring to get a chuckle from the author. That's also possible.

I'm leaning towards the redder possibility. :smallwink::wink:

[Darth Paul]

I'm still not seeing where Durkon is "slipping up" all that much. I think maybe people are reading too much into it, when it's just his rather understandable adjustment period at being a free dwarf again after so long riding around as a prisoner in his own head.

In fact Durkon would be going through PTSD. He's been held in an extended hostage situation, and so far he's had no form of counseling or debriefing. He's probably going to jump straight back into action almost immediately, from his perspective. Being held hostage produces enormous stress and emotional conflict, that the hostage needs a lot of help dealing with. The fact that he was forced to cooperate with his captor just makes it worse for Durkon.

[Peelee]

I'm still not seeing where Durkon is "slipping up" all that much. I think maybe people are reading too much into it, when it's just his rather understandable adjustment period at being a free dwarf again after so long riding around as a prisoner in his own head.

In fact Durkon would be going through PTSD. He's been held in an extended hostage situation, and so far he's had no form of counseling or debriefing. He's probably going to jump straight back into action almost immediately, from his perspective. Being held hostage produces enormous stress and emotional conflict, that the hostage needs a lot of help dealing with. The fact that he was forced to cooperate with his captor just makes it worse for Durkon.

Seconded. Durkon had a front row seat, as if he was doing it all himself. That he wasn't wouldn't make it any less traumatic or easy to deal with after.

[WolvesbaneIII]

as to "durkon being held hostage" and that accounts for the slip ups, who has ever been held hostage and been confused at being the villain?

durkon was captured by a mimicker of himself and even elan doesn't get confused and think he does the stuff nale does. In fact, elan was captured by nale like 2x by now and he knows well enough its not himself doing it.

:elan: Oh no! I've kidnapped myself!
:nale:What! NO YOU DIDN'T! I did it you fool!
:roy: I'm surprised. You'd think durkon would be a bit wiser than the likes of elan, to make such a simple error.

I'm going to go with "its a red herring" and the giant is trying to play all our expectations, with a forum that likes to try its hand at guessing plot twists.

Though, perhaps I had forgotten about an instance where elan did do just that. I'm more or less saying durkon shouldn't be doing the sort of thing elan should be dumb enough to do.

[Darth Paul]

First off, there's Stockholm syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome), and I suggest that Durkon may be suffering a delayed version of this effect, in fantasy terms. "A condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity." I'm not suggesting this is exactly what happened, but a degree of identity confusion where Durkon is confusing his identity with the actions he (as his body) was forced to take.

Second, Elan was kidnapped physically, not mentally. It's pretty easy to keep your identity separate when all that happens is having a fake beard glued to your face.

[Peelee]

as to "durkon being held hostage" and that accounts for the slip ups, who has ever been held hostage and been confused at being the villain?

When has a hostage ever had their body hijacked and gotten the most personal front row seat possible? Durkon saw himself doing all those things. That's got to have some pretty profound effects on someone.

[WolvesbaneIII]

[QUOTE=Darth Paul;23291795]First off, there's Stockholm syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome), and I suggest that Durkon may be suffering a delayed version of this effect, in fantasy terms. "A condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity." I'm not suggesting this is exactly what happened, but a degree of identity confusion where Durkon is confusing his identity with the actions he (as his body) was forced to take.

Thats an alliance, not assuming you were the captor. completely different.

And observing through a window is still not the same as actually doing it. His arms and legs were bound. And he was actively trying to thwart his captors plans all the while. it was a rebellion if anything.

Even elan to my knowledge didn't make that mistake, and its elan. He would be the prime person to make that mistake, and he was kidnapped like at least once, and sent to prison for being nale.

I'm going to re read the part where elan was kidnapped and sentenced as nale. I don't remember if he actually forgot he was not nale. Thog sure couldn't be arsed to care.

For durkon to make that mistake like 2x now, its either a red herring or a plot point to keep in mind, and this is the foreshadowing.

I'm actually on the fence now, and I'd like to think it was a deliberate thing to egg people on to make that distinction.

People have made up worse theories, like durkons mom having a miscarriage and durkon was being ressurected as a fetus. This is at least almost half as stupid as that. Its dumb only in the context that vampires aren't supposed to be over taken by their host, and we could make the assuption that vampire durkon became something new.

It's still kinda dumb, but it was worth getting having a conversation over.

I'm just curious as to what thor is taking about to durkon. I wonder if it was about going to hel, or the snarl. or his vampires actions somehow counting against him. durkons vampire essence is still an interesting topic of discussion though.

[Peelee]

[QUOTE=Darth Paul;23291795]First off, there's Stockholm syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome), and I suggest that Durkon may be suffering a delayed version of this effect, in fantasy terms. "A condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity." I'm not suggesting this is exactly what happened, but a degree of identity confusion where Durkon is confusing his identity with the actions he (as his body) was forced to take.

Thats an alliance, not assuming you were the captor. completely different.

And observing through a window is still not the same as actually doing it. His arms and legs were bound. And he was actively trying to thwart his captors plans all the while. it was a rebellion if anything.

Even elan to my knowledge didn't make that mistake, and its elan. He would be the prime person to make that mistake, and he was kidnapped like at least once, and sent to prison for being nale.

I'm going to re read the part where elan was kidnapped and sentenced as nale. I don't remember if he actually forgot he was not nale. Thog sure couldn't be arsed to care.

For durkon to make that mistake like 2x now, its either a red herring or a plot point to keep in mind, and this is the foreshadowing.

I'm actually on the fence now, and I'd like to think it was a deliberate thing to egg people on to make that distinction.

People have made up worse theories, like durkons mom having a miscarriage and durkon was being ressurected as a fetus. This is at least almost half as stupid as that. Its dumb only in the context that vampires aren't supposed to be over taken by their host, and we could make the assuption that vampire durkon became something new.

It's still kinda dumb, but it was worth getting having a conversation over.

I'm just curious as to what thor is taking about to durkon. I wonder if it was about going to hel, or the snarl. or his vampires actions somehow counting against him. durkons vampire essence is still an interesting topic of discussion though.

Elan was never in the same situation, so bringing him up continues to be irrelevant. Also, despite your assertions that Durkon didn't see everything as if he was the one who did it, the comic is presenting it differently. That you wish to read it as if Durkon himself is wrong... well, there's something to be said about making assumptions that don't fit the text.

[WolvesbaneIII]

[QUOTE=WolvesbaneIII;23291995]

Elan was never in the same situation, so bringing him up continues to be irrelevant. Also, despite your assertions that Durkon didn't see everything as if he was the one who did it, the comic is presenting it differently. That you wish to read it as if Durkon himself is wrong... well, there's something to be said about making assumptions that don't fit the text.

but he didn't actually do it and was working to undermine the vampire.

Durkon and the vampire were only the same person for a few seconds, and even then its a stretch.

Durkon making that mistake and thinking he was the one who did it is incorrect, as even roy asserts that vamp durkon is not durkon, and the 2 are a distinctly different entity over all. Durkon only gave the vampire that identity of durkon at the very last second before dying.

I actually don't think that the vampire is now here in the latest comic. It's actually nothing more than a pet theory of mine, to see proven wrong eventually.

Theres always the possibility that the 2 minds merged together at that moment, and now he does have the identity of that entity. It just seems off to me that he's making such a mistake more than once.

Maybe someone could get the right word for what happened here. I'm reminded of other works of fiction that had dual personalities like yugioh where dark marik, bakura and yugi usually had no trouble keeping their alter egos in check as to who was who, except in yugis case where he didn't know about yami. then there was no issue. Personality dissociation? I'd have to look that up.

Here we have durkon and evil durkon, and the 2 never had this issue before, and just cropped up right this second. In fact, the only one to really associate itself as being the other one is vampire durkon claiming to be durkon, but on his worst day. The real durkon never really had that issue, until right this very second. Again, it could just be a red herring, and will be addressed in a way that cleans this issue up right away.

as for elan, he doesn't have to have the same thing happen. he's elan. he could make that distinction by looking in a mirror, yet didn't.

:elan:AH! my evil doppleganger!
:roy: What! is it nale again!
:elan: No. just a mirror.
:roy: ...


edit: got this from a website on personality disorders

What Are the Symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

So, maybe he does have that, for the moment or symptoms of it. it was a rather traumatizing ordeal. so its either a red herring or a foreshadowed clue of a plot twist. I'd go with a red herring myself. Meant to trick some people.

[Peelee]

Look dude, if you're just going to constantly say "BUT ELAN!" despite Elan not being an analogue, and even then ignore the fact that yes not even Elan is that stupid that should tell you that Durkon isn't being suddenly unchatacteristically stupid, then there's no point in continuing this. Your entire argument is based on the idea of "but I don't understand what you guys are saying despite repeated attempts to get it through to me, so I'll assume the dumbest possibility and go with that."

[WolvesbaneIII]

Look dude, if you're just going to constantly say "BUT ELAN!" despite Elan not being an analogue, and even then ignore the fact that yes not even Elan is that stupid that should tell you that Durkon isn't being suddenly unchatacteristically stupid, then there's no point in continuing this. Your entire argument is based on the idea of "but I don't understand what you guys are saying despite repeated attempts to get it through to me, so I'll assume the dumbest possibility and go with that."

Actually, I was mostly agreeing with you guys in the end. I even posted something about personality dissociation and what not, which is a better explanation than Stockholm syndrome.

"What Are the Symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

So, maybe he does have that, for the moment or symptoms of it. it was a rather traumatizing ordeal. so its either a red herring or a foreshadowed clue of a plot twist. I'd go with a red herring myself. Meant to trick some people."


re read my last post before this. You need to stop selectively reading things, which is akin to straw man posts.

It is uncharacteristic of durkon who never assumed himself to be the vampire, only vampire durkon claimed to be the other. This only came up right this second, and not before while he was held captive.

Now if you're interested in contributing to a debate then lets debate. If not, then you don't have to stick around.

And using elan is a good example, if only for the people claiming before that durkon is suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

elan was held captive before.
Durkon was held captive

elan did not assume he was the captor.
Durkon in fact did.

I then used a personality disorder or its symptoms rather to come up with a reasonable solution, and with the trauma and stress, durkon could have these symptoms, at least for the short term. He'll shrug it off most likely.

The point was that even elan who was held captive, drugged and had his brothers goatee glued on didn't think he was nale, and durkon should be better than this, but I'm giving him a pass as while he may be a dwarf, he can use the "I'm only human" excuse. Nobodys perfect.

Don't blame me, I'm not the one who was claiming Stockholm syndrome, though to be fair, neither were you. I'm not even claiming mental illness either. Just the stress of it causing symptoms.

The vampire spirit isn't the stupidest possibility either thrown around on the forums. it would have to be the miscarriage one. how do you resurrect a fetus? what happens if you succeed? does it get to make that yes or no choice like roys brother? how can it make that distinction when it has no learned language? what level is a fetus anyway? WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

What is the giants take on the negative energy spirit post death? I'm assuming it has to go back to the negative energy plane if it follows dnd rules by tradition, but vampire durkon was not a traditional spirit. it was overcome by the host and made to be mostly the same as durkon in the end, though with a bit of negative energy squirming around.

I'm guessing he either went back to that plane, or was house ruled into going to some other plane. We'll have to see.

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkulas "soul" could be like the one in a million good black dragon, with all the blk dragons being evil, No, Durkula is unapologetic about being evil.
(1) Vigorously pursuing the end of the world for all sentient beings
(2) Tormenting Durkon's soul rather than letting it go to Valhalla
(3) Sucking the blood and life out of sentient beings and then raising them as vampires/spawn.

Not seeing "good" in any of that. The only good perhaps is in whatever efforts are being made to address the bad deal Hel got, however I don't see the ends justifies the means argument "destroy the world because Hel got a bad deal" as good in any way, shape, or form.

[woweedd]

Actually, I was mostly agreeing with you guys in the end. I even posted something about personality dissociation and what not, which is a better explanation than Stockholm syndrome.

"What Are the Symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder?
Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

So, maybe he does have that, for the moment or symptoms of it. it was a rather traumatizing ordeal. so its either a red herring or a foreshadowed clue of a plot twist. I'd go with a red herring myself. Meant to trick some people."


re read my last post before this. You need to stop selectively reading things, which is akin to straw man posts.

It is uncharacteristic of durkon who never assumed himself to be the vampire, only vampire durkon claimed to be the other. This only came up right this second, and not before while he was held captive.

Now if you're interested in contributing to a debate then lets debate. If not, then you don't have to stick around.

And using elan is a good example, if only for the people claiming before that durkon is suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

elan was held captive before.
Durkon was held captive

elan did not assume he was the captor.
Durkon in fact did.

I then used a personality disorder or its symptoms rather to come up with a reasonable solution, and with the trauma and stress, durkon could have these symptoms, at least for the short term. He'll shrug it off most likely.

The point was that even elan who was held captive, drugged and had his brothers goatee glued on didn't think he was nale, and durkon should be better than this, but I'm giving him a pass as while he may be a dwarf, he can use the "I'm only human" excuse. Nobodys perfect.

Don't blame me, I'm not the one who was claiming Stockholm syndrome, though to be fair, neither were you. I'm not even claiming mental illness either. Just the stress of it causing symptoms.

The vampire spirit isn't the stupidest possibility either thrown around on the forums. it would have to be the miscarriage one. how do you resurrect a fetus? what happens if you succeed? does it get to make that yes or no choice like roys brother? how can it make that distinction when it has no learned language? what level is a fetus anyway? WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

What is the giants take on the negative energy spirit post death? I'm assuming it has to go back to the negative energy plane if it follows dnd rules by tradition, but vampire durkon was not a traditional spirit. it was overcome by the host and made to be mostly the same as durkon in the end, though with a bit of negative energy squirming around.

I'm guessing he either went back to that plane, or was house ruled into going to some other plane. We'll have to see.
Every indication is that Durkon was right. As was pointed out, there's a reason the spirit didn't absorb all of Durkon's memories at once: namely, because acquiring all of Durkon's memories would make them identical. Thus, he staggered it out. That's what the three days in the coffin are for. However, Durkon was able to trick the spirit into asking for ALL his memories, overwhelming the spirit. Like drowning.

[zimmerwald1915]

Like drowning.
That's a terrible simile. Drowning in 3.5 heals you :smallbiggrin:

(Dumb, frivolous thread deserves and gets dumb, frivolous intervention.)

[WolvesbaneIII]

No, Durkula is unapologetic about being evil.
(1) Vigorously pursuing the end of the world for all sentient beings
(2) Tormenting Durkon's soul rather than letting it go to Valhalla
(3) Sucking the blood and life out of sentient beings and then raising them as vampires/spawn.

Not seeing "good" in any of that. The only good perhaps is in whatever efforts are being made to address the bad deal Hel got, however I don't see the ends justifies the means argument "destroy the world because Hel got a bad deal" as good in any way, shape, or form.

I absolutely agree with you. durkula was evil, as in WAS evil. And his spirit became "good" when he absorbed the memory flood.

durkulas fate is most likely just the normal fate of being destroyed and sent to the negative energy plane. I asked if anyone else thought he was the vampire spirit, not as in a real theory, but so much as a neat little "hey did you guys get that feeling, if even for a second?".

It wasn't to be taken entirely serious, but if you did, well thats cool too.

I do wonder though, if it IS durkula domehow, what could foreshadow that? foreshadowing is a powerful tool when done right.

I saw a movie one time where it was after the world "ended". trees stopped growing, people were dying off. gangs roamed the land. A man and his son were scavengers. They roamed about looking for food. But the thing is, the man started coughing. A cough is something we all do. No big deal right? Thats an unimportant detail, so just ignore that.

They continue their travels. Dude. get a lozenge. that coughing is getting annoying. They find a house with food, and shelter in it. Oops. its got inhabitants. so they run away, being pursued by an unnamed group.

as they traverse the lands, the "group" detailed earlier is being attacked by another group. Good timing. so they run off while the 2 distract each other.

The father then turns out to be REALLY sick. that coughing, a thing we all do and an unimportant detail glossed over turned out to be foreshadowing. The father dies. The boy is left alone, with a single gun to defend himself with. He's cornered by the "gang" from before.

It turns out to be the family from the house the man and son broke into. They were worried about the boy, and wonder where the father is. with his father dead, they invite the boy to live with them. A bitter sweet ending.

My point being, is that "Durkon" getting mixed up can either be foreshadowing, or a red herring. A safe bet is a red herring, and it really is durkon until proven other wise.

But if it is the vampire spirit, somehow, then there was appropriate foreshadowing. I personally doubt it, but it'd be neat if it were. but there'd have to be some explaining to be done by the giant for that to work.

energy spirits don't have an after life, they just cease to be and go back to their plane. Some really good logical explanation would be required for this one vampire spirit to be the exception to the rules.

Respectfully, Wolvesbane III

[Peelee]

re read my last post before this. You need to stop selectively reading things, which is akin to straw man posts.

No dude. Even if you ultimately turn around, addressing specific issues you raised is in no way akin to strawmanning, which is specifically taking addressing issues that were not raised. And even with your personality disorder justification, you refuse to acknowledge that Elan never had his body and mind controlled by another being while remaining fully conscious of it throughout. Looking like your twin is significantly different than getting kicked into the minds passenger seat by an unholy agent of in death. That you still refuse to acknowledge this means you still don't quite understand what happened with Durkon, despite it being a large focus and a driving force of the plot for about a whole book now.

[WolvesbaneIII]

No dude. Even if you ultimately turn around, addressing specific issues you raised is in no way akin to strawmanning, which is specifically taking addressing issues that were not raised. And even with your personality disorder justification, you refuse to acknowledge that Elan never had his body and mind controlled by another being while remaining fully conscious of it throughout. Looking like your twin is significantly different than getting kicked into the minds passenger seat by an unholy agent of in death. That you still refuse to acknowledge this means you still don't quite understand what happened with Durkon, despite it being a large focus and a driving force of the plot for about a whole book now.

not quite.

Another poster suggested durkon had stokholm syndrome, and I dismissed that with the evidence that stokholm syndrome isn't that, and asserted the 2 paralels that both durkon and elan were held captive, one physically, one mentally.

elan lacking the wisdom or intelligence to make correct assertations immediately would be the prime suspect to goof up and assume somehow he did it or that he was nale or his captor, which he didn't.

Durkon was never confused before about being the vampire until JUST NOW. and was actively working to undermine him the whole time. Between him and durkula, only durkula openly states he is durkon, but adds the condition, that he is him but on his worst day.

the real durkon never thought he was the vampire, and the "yer me" thing was him stating the consequence of durkula taking in all the memories like that all at once. rubbing it in if you will. For it to muddled up like he is saying is likely a red herring, or a side effect of post death vampirism. I wonder if malak thought he was the vampire in his after life, or if this is just a durkon only thing. Durkons vampire spirit might have merged with him due to the memory absorbtion thing, or is just stress and mental anguish.

I'm actually going to just give durkon a free pass. He's only human (dwarf really) after all.

You're not the guy who suggested stokholm syndrome. Which is allying with your captors, which is incorrect. durkon staged a rebellion and won. But I can see why somebody might have thought that. his vampire self had reverse stokholm syndrome, and allied with his prisoner.

I'm obviously not really taking this as seriously as you are, but I'm glad you came upon this thread and contributed. I'm enjoying this chat and would like to hear your opinions on other matters, as you do appear to be quite intelligent and I think we got off on the wrong foot.

Maybe we'll be more acquiescent in our next conversation.

[woweedd]

You're not the guy who suggested stokholm syndrome. Which is allying with your captors, which is incorrect. durkon staged a rebellion and won. But I can see why somebody might have thought that. his vampire self had reverse stokholm syndrome, and allied with his prisoner.
For reference, the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome IE developing sympathy with one's captive, often to the extent of setting them free out of pity, is called Lima Syndrome.

[WolvesbaneIII]

For reference, the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome IE developing sympathy with one's captive, often to the extent of setting them free out of pity, is called Lima Syndrome.

Good to know my dude. Lima syndrome for the vampire it is then.:cool:

[woweedd]

Good to know my dude. Lima syndrome for the vampire it is then.:cool:
Well, not really. The whole point is that, at the moment of death, the negative energy spirit and Durkon were, in that brief period, the same being, occupying two different metaphysical locations. Technically, both of them survived, because they are, physically and mentally, identical.

[Rrmcklin]

When Rich made his big post explaining how Durkon was able to do what he did and why no one else has, it said he would be vague so as not to spoil somethings. So while that does imply we're not entirely done with Vampirism, and even that it might follow Durkon around for rest of the series, no, this actually being the Vampire Spirit seems both incredibly unlikely, and uninteresting.

I honestly do not understand the continued fascination with it. Whether it ceased to exist, or went on to Hel, means nothing now. I'm a bit confused as to why anyone would think that Rich would even address it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

When Rich made his big post explaining how Durkon was able to do what he did and why no one else has, it said he would be vague so as not to spoil somethings. So while that does imply we're not entirely done with Vampirism, and even that it might follow Durkon around for rest of the series, no, this actually being the Vampire Spirit seems both incredibly unlikely, and uninteresting.

I honestly do not understand the continued fascination with it. Whether it ceased to exist, or went on to Hel, means nothing now.

I agree for the most part. Where did rich say that? I'd love to see the full quote. Now you got my interest.

And yeah, it is unlikely that this is the vampire spirit. The default position is that this is durkon and anything else is wrong until proven right. It was merely a pet hypothesis of mine I had for a moment when reading the latest strip. It seemed off to me, but its probably a red herring if anything.

EDIT: just found the thing on the vamp durkon thing. nice read. so durkon is possibly the highest will powered person to become a vampire huh? I wonder if the whole durkon in chains thing was a metaphorical thing, with the 2 spirits bickering was for show, and it really was durkon the whole time, with him remembering himself at that moment. or it literally was as we saw it. Yeah, sometimes the occams razor cuts too deep for it to be anything else. We don't want another blair witch 2 thing to happen. :yuk:

[Darth Paul]

not quite.

Another poster suggested durkon had stokholm syndrome, and I dismissed that with the evidence that stokholm syndrome isn't that, and asserted the 2 paralels that both durkon and elan were held captive, one physically, one mentally.


For reference, the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome IE developing sympathy with one's captive, often to the extent of setting them free out of pity, is called Lima Syndrome.

Yes, it was me who mentioned Stockholm Syndrome (note spelling; the Swedes are fanatics about spelling) and suggested in passing that Durkon could be suffering some variant of this, in the sense that his body was forced to do things that he didn't want to do and he was forced to give his captor memories whether he wanted to or not. He was in an involuntary alliance with Greg the vampire spirit. So a certain confusion afterward could be attributed to some type of Stockholm Syndrome, although not the classic example. But PTSD more than covers Durkon's issues here.

And I really doubt that he would develop Lima Syndrome either, considering Durkon was in complete opposition to the HPoH's goals the entire time. Any sympathy might show up later as "He couldn't really help what he was made as."

[WolvesbaneIII]

Yes, it was me who mentioned Stockholm Syndrome (note spelling; the Swedes are fanatics about spelling) and suggested in passing that Durkon could be suffering some variant of this, in the sense that his body was forced to do things that he didn't want to do and he was forced to give his captor memories whether he wanted to or not. He was in an involuntary alliance with Greg the vampire spirit. So a certain confusion afterward could be attributed to some type of Stockholm Syndrome, although not the classic example. But PTSD more than covers Durkon's issues here.

And I really doubt that he would develop Lima Syndrome either, considering Durkon was in complete opposition to the HPoH's goals the entire time. Any sympathy might show up later as "He couldn't really help what he was made as."

You misunderstand. durkula had lima syndrome, and let durkon go. or rather allowed for the situation to come about where he would be freed.

Durkon waged a rebellion and won. Stokholm would mean durkon would ally with the vampire and work with him to let hel win. that wasn't what happened, it was durkons plan to trap the vampire with his memories, essentially the vampire getting lima syndrome.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LimaSyndrome

stokholm is completely different. durkon being forced to give information is either "enhanced interrogation" or you know some other clever way of saying he forced him into giving up the goods.

To say the 2 had an "alliance" is incorrect. They were never allies, not until durkon had won the battle of wills and turned his vampire captor into his unwilling pawn.

al·li·ance
əˈlīəns/Submit

a relationship based on an affinity in interests, nature, or qualities.

The 2 had completely different interests, 1 being to save the world, the other to destroy it. Durkon waged a coup and seized control in a brilliant tactical manner. If anything his plan was underhanded and sneaky. but thats giving it too much of a negative connotation.

Durkon used his captors naivete to his advantage and beat him the only way he could. Alliance? more like durkon played the vampire spirit and displayed more treachery than some of the best con artists out there. I doubt haley could pull that off as easily.

[Darth Paul]

The key phrase was "involuntary alliance". "Involuntary" meaning Durkon did not want to do the things he was doing.

And I did misread Durkula for Durkon. But he also didn't have a Lima syndrome moment- he was overwhelmed by memories until he became a carbon copy (momentarily) of Durkon, and did what Durkon would do in the circumstances. A reversal of the Demonic Possession (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicPossession) that Durkon has been suffering, in that Durkon's personality takes over Durkula... but Durkon/Durkula knows it won't last, so he sacrifices himself before the vampire can reassert his own personality.

[Vmag]

My takeaways:

Greg is Durkon at his worst. But when given all of Durkon's experiences, effectively becomes Durkon. It appears that vampirism here isolates the worst aspects of the host, keeping a firm lock on that part of the person. So in that regard... I propose that Greg and Durkon are one and the same, and on a metaphysical level, the sins of Greg reflect on Durkon. But by force of will, he was able to weaken that grip and "become himself" long enough to make a meaningful sacrifice to help the greatest good. So, the worsts of Greg and the best of Durkon would definitely be weighed together.

And that Stockholm syndrome does not have any actual backing from psychological science. It's a popular trope, and lazy writing, but exists more in media sensationalism than in any actual diagnosis. I do not believe it plays any part in this story.

[Peelee]

My takeaways:

Greg is Durkon at his worst. But when given all of Durkon's experiences, effectively becomes Durkon. It appears that vampirism here isolates the worst aspects of the host, keeping a firm lock on that part of the person. So in that regard... I propose that Greg and Durkon are one and the same, and on a metaphysical level, the sins of Greg reflect on Durkon. But by force of will, he was able to weaken that grip and "become himself" long enough to make a meaningful sacrifice to help the greatest good. So, the worsts of Greg and the best of Durkon would definitely be weighed together.

And that Stockholm syndrome does not have any actual backing from psychological science. It's a popular trope, and lazy writing, but exists more in media sensationalism than in any actual diagnosis. I do not believe it plays any part in this story.

Durkon at his worst wouldn't kill the innocent, much less conspire to destroy the world. The vampire spirit is a perversion of Durkon, IMO; vampires in general seem like they eventually identify with the host (Malack remembering the taste of his brothers more than a familial bond still implies that he thinks of them as his, and not his host's brothers). They eventually merge, and the host's memories are a part of the vampire's memories. I see no reason this wouldn't work both ways, with the vampires always-currently-being-formed memories being just as much for the host as they are for the vampire, except the vampire has all the control.

[WolvesbaneIII]

The key phrase was "involuntary alliance". "Involuntary" meaning Durkon did not want to do the things he was doing.

And I did misread Durkula for Durkon. But he also didn't have a Lima syndrome moment- he was overwhelmed by memories until he became a carbon copy (momentarily) of Durkon, and did what Durkon would do in the circumstances. A reversal of the Demonic Possession (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicPossession) that Durkon has been suffering, in that Durkon's personality takes over Durkula... but Durkon/Durkula knows it won't last, so he sacrifices himself before the vampire can reassert his own personality.

It wasn't an "involuntary alliance" so much as durkon plotting rebellion. and he won the battle by steering durkula into a trap. Much of the information that durkon gave the vampire that was willing was designed to set up his demise.

I think an unwilling alliance would be better suited for red claok and xykon, as the 2 need each other for the time. dukon didn't need the vampire at all, and had no use for him, so he had him offed as soon as possible. Xykon for all his power still needs redcloak for the ritual, redcloak still needs xykon and while he does intend to betray xykon and possibly vice versa, they are allied for the time.

Another instance where 2 people were never allies were raziel and moebius from soul reaver 2.

Moebius:
Kain's devious influence has poisoned your mind, Raziel.
Now you see betrayal everywhere, even in your closest allies.

Raziel:
We were never allies, Moebius.
Conspirators, perhaps. Briefly.

yeah I wouldn't consider the 2 to be allies, if only because it was such a 1 sided relationship. much of the information given was taken by force, and what wasn't was a deliberate trap to get his captor brainwashed into becoming good.

[Darth Paul]

Whatever Durkon's captive spirit was plotting, his body was being used against his will, and his memories were forcibly taken. I can't stress this strongly enough. Durkon's body and memories were made into tools, against his will, for the destruction of the world, while he had to watch. There's no possible way this doesn't lead to trauma, of the "I should have found a way to stop him sooner" variety, regardless of his eventual victory.
Regardless of his limited ability to steer Greg toward certain memories rather than others, setting up the vampire spirit for an eventual fall.

My point is, Durkon is traumatized (getting back to the original thread question). He's not confused about whether he's a vampire spirit, though.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Whatever Durkon's captive spirit was plotting, his body was being used against his will, and his memories were forcibly taken. I can't stress this strongly enough. Durkon's body and memories were made into tools, against his will, for the destruction of the world, while he had to watch. There's no possible way this doesn't lead to trauma, of the "I should have found a way to stop him sooner" variety, regardless of his eventual victory.
Regardless of his limited ability to steer Greg toward certain memories rather than others, setting up the vampire spirit for an eventual fall.

My point is, Durkon is traumatized (getting back to the original thread question). He's not confused about whether he's a vampire spirit, though.

ok. its still not stokholm syndrome.

Also, I've already addressed those points you brought up and moved on since then. We already know durkon is durkon and not the vampire. The point of the thread was to just kinda go "whoa was that the vampire spirit somehow? nah probably not. I just had that impression for a few seconds.".

I just found it odd that durkon would make that mistake when he was never under the impression he was the vampire.

[MADCrab]

Man, you guys are weirdly against the "it's Greg" idea.

Two mixups in two strips. That's blatant signaling. Sure, maybe it'll be an untwist and it turns out everything gets fuzzy after Vampiric Possession, but it's at least as good a theory that this is Greg, not Durkon. Heck, it's the obvious theory, one that doesn't require piles and piles of questionable metaphysics or exciting new psychological problems. At most, all it requires is "Maybe non-evil negative energy beings can't dissolve nicely" or maybe "Thor had reason to grab a Good-aligned negative energy being."

WAG: A being who doesn't have an immortal soul to risk, is likely to expire anyway, and is captial-G Good would be extremely useful if you had to deal with a horrifically dangerous, soul-destroying abomination.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Man, you guys are weirdly against the "it's Greg" idea.

Two mixups in two strips. That's blatant signaling. Sure, maybe it'll be an untwist and it turns out everything gets fuzzy after Vampiric Possession, but it's at least as good a theory that this is Greg, not Durkon. Heck, it's the obvious theory, one that doesn't require piles and piles of questionable metaphysics or exciting new psychological problems. At most, all it requires is "Maybe non-evil negative energy beings can't dissolve nicely" or maybe "Thor had reason to grab a Good-aligned negative energy being."

WAG: A being who doesn't have an immortal soul to risk, is likely to expire anyway, and is captial-G Good would be extremely useful if you had to deal with a horrifically dangerous, soul-destroying abomination.

its an interesting theory, certainly. It could certainly count as a chekhovs gun.

For reference, chekhovs gun is defined as "Chekhov's gun is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play. The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation:[1][2][3]

"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."[3][4]
"One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn't going to go off. It's wrong to make promises you don't mean to keep." Chekhov, letter to Aleksandr Semenovich Lazarev (pseudonym of A. S. Gruzinsky), 1 November 1889.[5][6][7] Here the "gun" is a monologue that Chekhov deemed superfluous and unrelated to the rest of the play.
"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there." From Gurlyand's Reminiscences of A. P. Chekhov, in Teatr i iskusstvo 1904, No. "

Here, the gun is durkon making the same mistake when he never did so when he was with the vampire.

now, it could just be a red herring and it really is as simple as durkon made a mistake. No biggie if it is. this could be gregs "soul" on a detour before going back to the negative energy plane.

but I do feel it is important to state, this being the real durkon is the default position.

[Peelee]

Man, you guys are weirdly against the "it's Greg" idea.

Well, yes, because that would cause severe repercussions as far as worldbuilding goes. First off, vampires are destroyed, not killed, in D&D. As Celia explained, they don't have an afterlife, they cease to exist.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's assume that this doesn't affect the vampire. His soul going to Thor means that it didn't get shuffled straight to Hel, which it should (737 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) establishes that dwarf could that die with honor still go to the plane matching their alignment, so no matter how you shake it, that's where the vampire soul would end up with Hel if it ended up anywhere at all). The vampire, being a powerful cleric, could plane shift, of course, but that has a distinctive effect. All this doesn't even mention that he arrived right by Minrah, which is a very specific location to begin with.

And, lest we forget, assuming the vampire is here means we have to wonder where Durkon is, since their souls were freed at the same time.

This would require the vampire to be able to short circuit the universal soul sorting system which we have no reason to suspect is fallible, which nobody else no matter how powerful has been able to pull off (see the spliced souls, for example, or Xykon's fire-down-below speech), as well as getting Durkon's soul caught in the gears as well.

There's simply way too many moving parts for me to accept this.

[Particle_Man]

Also, is Thor fooled in this theory or simply being especially circumspect? Because Thor calls him Durkon. And I think Thor would know.

[Kish]

Weirdly, you say? Care to put your money where your mouth is?

A hundred gold says this spirit is the spirit of the living dwarf Durkon Thundershield, not the vampire spirit.

[MADCrab]

Well, yes, because that would cause severe repercussions as far as worldbuilding goes. First off, vampires are destroyed, not killed, in D&D. As Celia explained, they don't have an afterlife, they cease to exist.

Hence my two WAGs. But then again, there's never been anything quite like Durkon and Greg.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's assume that this doesn't affect the vampire. His soul going to Thor means that it didn't get shuffled straight to Hel, which it should (snip) establishes that dwarf could that die with honor still go to the plane matching their alignment, so no matter how you shake it, that's where the vampire soul would end up with Hel if it ended up anywhere at all). The vampire, being a powerful cleric, could plane shift, of course, but that has a distinctive effect. All this doesn't even mention that he arrived right by Minrah, which is a very specific location to begin with.
Except he's currently Durkon, so Good aligned, no matter that he's a negative-energy critter. I have suspicious about why Minrah is there - she should have gone straight to Valhalla, not like Thor needed a chat with her.

And, lest we forget, assuming the vampire is here means we have to wonder where Durkon is, since their souls were freed at the same time.In Valhalla, drinking beer natch.

This would require the vampire to be able to short circuit the universal soul sorting system which we have no reason to suspect is fallible, which nobody else no matter how powerful has been able to pull off (see the spliced souls, for example, or Xykon's fire-down-below speech), as well as getting Durkon's soul caught in the gears as well.

There's never been anything like Greg. Grey area if there ever was one.

Also, is Thor fooled in this theory or simply being especially circumspect? Because Thor calls him Durkon. And I think Thor would know.

We call the vampire Greg. But he never had a name aside from Durkon. And now he's literally Durkon. What else would Thor call him?


Weirdly, you say? Care to put your money where your mouth is?

A hundred gold says this spirit is the spirit of the living dwarf Durkon Thundershield, not the vampire spirit.
I'm happy to debate the merit of different theories, and I'm not married to this one. But it's a decent explanation of the currently-occurring setup, and I'm not hearing anybody giving any others that don't involve Durkon having some kind of weird mental break.

Durkon!Prime has no reason to be confused - he has one set of memories. Durkon!Greg has every reason to be confused - he has memories of watching the orders given, and giving the orders. I have an easier time believing that the fuzzy afterlife rules will be bent, than Durkon is spontaneously mixing up the actions of an evil vampire he spent ages fighting with his own.

[Kish]

[...]
Is that a yes or a no to the bet?

[hroþila]

While what happened to the vampire in 1130 probably never happened before, I don't think we have reason to conclude that it fundamentally changed what the vampire is or the way vampirism works. In fact, what happened was possible because of how the ol' vampirism works, with the rules that had been explored in the comic beforehand and with the inferences we could draw from them. I don't think those rules are going to be broken/rewritten now, after the fact and with the main obstacle in the book finally overcome. The only thing this theory seems to have going for it is that it isn't 100% impossible. Which, OK, fair enough if you just want to throw it out there for the fun of it - we all do that from time to time. Just not much of a point in debating it.

[MADCrab]

While what happened to the vampire in 1130 probably never happened before, I don't think we have reason to conclude that it fundamentally changed what the vampire is or the way vampirism works. In fact, what happened was possible because of how the ol' vampirism works, with the rules that had been explored in the comic beforehand and with the inferences we could draw from them. I don't think those rules are going to be broken/rewritten now, after the fact and with the main obstacle in the book finally overcome. The only thing this theory seems to have going for it is that it isn't 100% impossible. Which, OK, fair enough if you just want to throw it out there for the fun of it - we all do that from time to time. Just not much of a point in debating it.

Not impossible, and explains the current setup. That's the only reason I'd say this goes from WAG to plausible.

[Peelee]

Hence my two WAGs. But then again, there's never been anything quite like Durkon and Greg.
Except he's currently Durkon, so Good aligned, no matter that he's a negative-energy critter.
Actually, even assuming that he is currently Durkon, yes matter that he's a negative-energy critter; by standard D&D rules, he'd be destroyed. And the comic is standard D&D rules until it isn't, meaning the author can change things at will, but it's pointless speculating that a thing can be changed like that by author fiat before it is, because then one can speculate that anything can be changed like that by author fiat.

[MADCrab]

Actually, even assuming that he is currently Durkon, yes matter that he's a negative-energy critter; by standard D&D rules, he'd be destroyed. And the comic is standard D&D rules until it isn't, meaning the author can change things at will, but it's pointless speculating that a thing can be changed like that by author fiat before it is, because then one can speculate that anything can be changed like that by author fiat.

Standard DnD rules do not cover good-aligned negative energy critters, vampires holding souls hostage, or vampires accidentally being overwritten by their victim. We're seriously off the reservation here. We've also been explicitly told that trying to pin down specific rules is just going to be an exercise in frustration, so again - I'll take "it's in the rulebook" with a large grain of salt.

[Peelee]

Standard DnD rules do not cover good-aligned negative energy critters, vampires holding souls hostage, or vampires accidentally being overwritten by their victim. We're seriously off the reservation here. We've also been explicitly told that trying to pin down specific rules is just going to be an exercise in frustration, so again - I'll take "it's in the rulebook" with a large grain of salt.

Considering that the vampire was still a vampire, I see zero reason to believe any of the other things affect "vampires are destroyed, do not go to afterlife, do not collect $200."

[Kish]

Standard DnD rules do not cover good-aligned negative energy critters, vampires holding souls hostage, or vampires accidentally being overwritten by their victim.
Wrong in two cases out of three; undead can change alignment at least as easily as fiends can (and fiends can), and a person turned into a vampire is trapped in a body controlled by a malign intelligence in the standard D&D rules. And it doesn't make a lot of sense that you're arguing at once that Greg was overwritten and that Greg, not Durkon, is here now.

Bet offer's still on the table.

[martianmister]

As I said before, Durkon and HPoH's souls and memories could ve merged.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I said before, Durkon and HPoH's souls and memories could ve merged.
Thor knows who he's talking to. :smallsmile:

[WolvesbaneIII]

As I said before, Durkon and HPoH's souls and memories could ve merged.

Thats certainly possible. maybe malak had the same thing happen to him but worse, as it was 200 years instead of like 2 days or whatever it was.

Can someone fetch me a time table of vampire durkons life span until he died? Now I'm curious to that.

Malaks soul is probably like "whoa. I have the distinct mental imprint of all this cool vampire stuff happening, but without really having done it myslf. A dejavu of sorts. Did I really befriend a dwarf? its so fuzzy, my memories..."

As to thor calling greg durkon, if that were to be the case, what else would vampire durkon be called? the order ended up just calling him *Durkon but I don't recall them ever doing that outside of that one comic.

I think its just regular durkon, and the 2 minds of the vampire and durkon merged at the end.

I will say this, if it is *durkon and not durkon here, thor might have pulled a few strings to prevent *durkon from returning back to whence he came. The reason would not yet be clear, but maybe to save the world, a vampire cleric would be needed, but a good aligned one.

I don't play d&d, but wouldn't an undead cleric be immune to negative energy drains or whatever?

Eh. I'm sure the real story will be better than what we are speculating on.

[Fyraltari]

I've been thinking about the whole vampire situation for a while and this looks like as god a place as any to drop my two Euro cents.

But first a little aside. There's a sci-fi comic book that I really like called Sillage (Wake in English), at one point, one of the main characters, Bobo (not sure how they translated that name, "ouchie"?), is sent to retrieve a higher-tech weapon that was sold to a lower tech civilisation warlord. He does git it but is flooded by ennemies and saved in-extremius by a telepath, Atsukau. When asked about it Bobo says the idea of using said weapon (that was strapped to his back) to fend off his ennemies never crossed his mind, Atsukau corrects him by stating that his subconscient did form that thought but his strong morals (dude could give Durkon a run for his money, really) stopped that line of thinking before it could reach the sate of conscious thought.

Back to OOTS. Durkon* was made of negative energy and given Durkon's stats (with vampire modifiers) and some necessary knowledge (Language, Godsmoot coordinates and Hel's plan, etc) but no personnality not personnal memories. Then, once stuffed into Durkon he got his first taste of the world: Durkon's worst moment ever with nothing to help him understand or cope with it, and then little by little, Durkon's memories the ones who forged his personnality. The result (before Firmament) was a partial copy of Durkon, not an alien counsciousness, specifically, all the worst bits.

Basically, that means that there was nothing in Durkon*'s personnality that wasn't Durkon's, but where Durkon had a lifetime of experience to rein in every evil impulse and thought, Durkon* had nothing but those, utterly unrestrained.

As a result, and that's where my aside comes into play, every thought and idea that Durkon* had, Durkon had as well, however, like in Bobo's case all those ideas stayed at a subconscious level where even Durkon couldn't perceive them. Using Kudzu as a dwarven shield? Somewher deep in dark in Durkon's mind there was a part of him going "Hey that would stop Roy, you know, intellectualy" and immediately another part went "what? No! Stop! That be gross an' evil an' wrong!". And then Durkon* goes and does it and it feels eerily like it was hius idea to Durkon.

Then Firmament happens and Durkon* gets all the memories without the time to process and rationalize them and turns into Durkon#2, the exact same as Durkon and we know the rest.


Anyway that's how I understand it. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also that's a nitpick but Durkon wasn't taken hostage, Kudzu was. Durkon was taken prisoner.

[Rrmcklin]

Man, you guys are weirdly against the "it's Greg" idea.

Two mixups in two strips. That's blatant signaling. Sure, maybe it'll be an untwist and it turns out everything gets fuzzy after Vampiric Possession, but it's at least as good a theory that this is Greg, not Durkon. Heck, it's the obvious theory, one that doesn't require piles and piles of questionable metaphysics or exciting new psychological problems. At most, all it requires is "Maybe non-evil negative energy beings can't dissolve nicely" or maybe "Thor had reason to grab a Good-aligned negative energy being."

WAG: A being who doesn't have an immortal soul to risk, is likely to expire anyway, and is captial-G Good would be extremely useful if you had to deal with a horrifically dangerous, soul-destroying abomination.

So, to you the "obvious" conclusion is that we're not following the character we've known for over 1000 strips, but a vampire spirit, and Rich is just not telling us "because twists"? Did I get that right? Because that reasoning is faulty as it comes.

Instead of the much more reasonable "Durkon went through a lot of crap as a hostage in his own body, and is now reasonably showing some repercussions of that"? No, the chances of this being the vampire spirit are not equal to it being Durkon.

[martianmister]

Thor knows who he's talking to. :smallsmile:

What do you mean by that?

[MReav]

What I don't understand is what the portal was that Greg went into in the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html).

The only portal that thing is is the portal into the soul...

Which, since we're on the other side of that, that would make the eyes are the soul's portal into the world.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, we have our answer: Thor both knows about how vampirism works, and specifically wants real Durkon, not Vampire Durkon.

So whether Durkon's pronoun slip ups will have any greater meaning or not (and they might), no, this is not Vampire Durkon. And as for what happened to Vampire Durkon; most likely ceased existing, and otherwise doesn't matter anymore.

[MADCrab]

Well, we have our answer: Thor both knows about how vampirism works, and specifically wants real Durkon, not Vampire Durkon.

So whether Durkon's pronoun slip ups will have any greater meaning or not (and they might), no, this is not Vampire Durkon. And as for what happened to Vampire Durkon; most likely ceased existing, and otherwise doesn't matter anymore.


Dunno where you're getting that.

Yes, this is Durkon. That doesn't mean it's not the Vampire, too. That was the whole point of Durkon's play. If Thor's as reasonable as is being shown (or has need for a negative-energy spirit, vampire, or whatever) he's still going to acknowledge that yes, you're Durkon.

Again and again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but I think it's pretty bloody obvious at this point that the slips are a plot point. Heck, it was obvious the first time, now it's smacking people about the head for attention.


So, to you the "obvious" conclusion is that we're not following the character we've known for over 1000 strips, but a vampire spirit, and Rich is just not telling us "because twists"? Did I get that right? Because that reasoning is faulty as it comes.

Instead of the much more reasonable "Durkon went through a lot of crap as a hostage in his own body, and is now reasonably showing some repercussions of that"? No, the chances of this being the vampire spirit are not equal to it being Durkon. I think between "Durkon is having a mental break" and "This is vampire flavour Durkon (same Lawful Good taste!)" the second is narratively more likely. In reality, sure the mental break option is pretty much guaranteed, but this isn't reality.

[Peelee]

Dunno where you're getting that.

Yes, this is Durkon. That doesn't mean it's not the Vampire, too. That was the whole point of Durkon's play. If Thor's as reasonable as is being shown (or has need for a negative-energy spirit, vampire, or whatever) he's still going to acknowledge that yes, you're Durkon.

Again and again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but I think it's pretty bloody obvious at this point that the slips are a plot point. Heck, it was obvious the first time, now it's smacking people about the head for attention.

I think between "Durkon is having a mental break" and "This is vampire flavour Durkon (same Lawful Good taste!)" the second is narratively more likely. In reality, sure the mental break option is pretty much guaranteed, but this isn't reality.

A hundred gold says you're wrong.

[Kish]

A hundred gold says you're wrong.
Indeed, MADCrab, if it's "smacking people about the head for attention," taking bets seems an obvious choice for you; it's a sure thing, right?

[Rrmcklin]

Dunno where you're getting that.

Yes, this is Durkon. That doesn't mean it's not the Vampire, too. That was the whole point of Durkon's play. If Thor's as reasonable as is being shown (or has need for a negative-energy spirit, vampire, or whatever) he's still going to acknowledge that yes, you're Durkon.

Because Thor specifically references not being able to help Durkon with the Vampire in his head, and apologized for it. That doesn't make any sense if this is Vampire Durkon. Like, why would you even assume that Thor knows what Durkon even did?


Again and again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but I think it's pretty bloody obvious at this point that the slips are a plot point. Heck, it was obvious the first time, now it's smacking people about the head for attention.

Yes, it can be a plot point, that doesn't mean it has to be this plot point.


I think between "Durkon is having a mental break" and "This is vampire flavour Durkon (same Lawful Good taste!)" the second is narratively more likely. In reality, sure the mental break option is pretty much guaranteed, but this isn't reality.

Except the strip thoroughly shot that down. It's one thing to play devil's advocate, now you're flat out ignoring evidence to the contrary and creating a false dichotomy on top of it.

[Lamech]

So there are a few possibilities:

1) Durkon and Greg both "survived" and are in different afterlives. This leads to several possibilities:
1a) Durkon is in Valhalla, and Greg is off somewhere else. Probably the generic LG afterlife on account of not being a real dwarf. This is nice, but boring.
1b) The one this thread posits: Greg is in Valhalla. This means Durkon went to Hel. Worse, it makes this awfully pointless, since it will likely be Durkon getting resurrected and he'll just be traumatized and mad from being tortured. This is such a kick in the head, I really doubt it. Furthermore, I think Greg would have noticed he's Greg pretty quickly.
2) Durkon survived, and Greg has been destroyed. This is boring and crappy to Greg.
3) Greg survived and Durkon has been destroyed. What? Why?!?
4) Durkon and Greg have fused into a single entity. This would nicely explain why everything is all jumbled up. It also means that Durkon now has access to everything the vampire knew about Hel's plans and such.
5) We never find out.

I think its probably "1a" or "4"

[Peelee]

2) Durkon survived, and Greg has been destroyed. This is boring and crappy to Greg.

I agree with the first sentence, and disagree with the second.

[Rrmcklin]

I agree with the first sentence, and disagree with the second.

Yeah, I still don't understand this fixation some people have for Greg having a "good outcome". Being Durkon for like two seconds while probably already begin to revert back to his original self, doesn't somehow make me hope it gets to continue to exist.

[MADCrab]

Indeed, MADCrab, if it's "smacking people about the head for attention," taking bets seems an obvious choice for you; it's a sure thing, right?
That Durkon's confusion is a plot point? I'll absolutely take that forum bet. That this is "Greg?" No, I'm not sold on that.



Because Thor specifically references not being able to help Durkon with the Vampire in his head, and apologized for it. That doesn't make any sense if this is Vampire Durkon. Like, why would you even assume that Thor knows what Durkon even did? Because "Greg" is now Durkon, and has Durkon's memories of being trapped by Greg, who he is...
I keep saying "Is Greg" because we need an extra noun, but in fact we briefly had two Durkons. Why should Thor treat them differently? They have/had near-identical memories, goals, and alignment.


Except the strip thoroughly shot that down. It's one thing to play devil's advocate, now you're flat out ignoring evidence to the contrary and creating a false dichotomy on top of it. See above.


1b) The one this thread posits: Greg is in Valhalla. This means Durkon went to Hel. Wait, what?! Why would Durkon go to Hel?


I still don't understand this fixation some people have for Greg having a "good outcome" Mostly because we're using "Greg" as an identifier of Durkon.copy() in this context.

[Peelee]

Why should Thor treat them differently?

...because one of them is an undead creature created by Hel who murdered a large number of people in his quest to destroy the world so his deity could rule in the next?

Imean, sure, that kind of thing usually gets a slap on the wrist, but I dunno, I just think Thor might give a **** about that.

[MADCrab]

...because one of them is an undead creature created by Hel who murdered a large number of people in his quest to destroy the world so his deity could rule in the next?

Imean, sure, that kind of thing usually gets a slap on the wrist, but I dunno, I just think Thor might give a **** about that.

If only there were a reason to not judge him for that... Maybe somebody mentioned something to that effect earlier in the thread?


Because "Greg" is now Durkon, and has Durkon's memories of being trapped by Greg, who he is...
I keep saying "Is Greg" because we need an extra noun, but in fact we briefly had two Durkons. Why should Thor treat them differently? They have/had near-identical memories, goals, and alignment. Why, that sounds like a reason! Particularly the alignment. Oh and look, there's that one line you quoted.

Greg the vamp was changed enough to let Belkar put a stake in him. Once Durkon cloned, why treat the clone differently? Because the old dead personality was evil? That seems odd to me.

Not much point arguing this further I suppose. Restating our positions won't convince anybody. We'll see how things go.

[Keltest]

If only there were a reason to not judge him for that... Maybe somebody mentioned something to that effect earlier in the thread?

Why, that sounds like a reason! Particularly the alignment. Oh and look, there's that one line you quoted.

Greg the vamp was changed enough to let Belkar put a stake in him. Once Durkon cloned, why treat the clone differently? Because the old dead personality was evil? That seems odd to me.

Not much point arguing this further I suppose. Restating our positions won't convince anybody. We'll see how things go.

Being temporarily overwhelmed by another person's personality shortly before death isn't really a particularly compelling reason to treat them differently in the afterlife.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, MadCrad, you keep going on about how Vampire Durkon is a special case so anything can go, but he's not special because of any traits directly related to him.

What happened was completely due to OG Durkon, and we have no reason to assume it fundamentally changed what it was made out of, or how its destruction would work.

He was not a special vampire spirit, you should stop talking as if he was.

[Darth Paul]

Durkon's attitude is perfectly understandable. "That wasn't me, that was Evil Me. Which was also me. Yes, it's confusing." We've seen this kind of thing in everything from Star Trek to Stargate to soap operas. It's going to take him a little while to get straight, but that doesn't mean he's actually the vampire spirit. He's Durkon having escaped domination by a vampire spirit. I really don't expect any big plot point to come out of these verbal tics, unless it's the fact that Durkon has a load of guilt over his body doing things he couldn't prevent while Greg was driving it around.

This was really a prime example of Grand Theft Me (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandTheftMe) for Durkon, his body and mind were stolen and he had no say in what was done with them, yet he's going to bear the burden for the vampire's actions. As far as the world is concerned, Vampire Durkon and Durkon are the same person. I think he's internalized a lot of that as well.

[Peelee]

If only there were a reason to not judge him for that... Maybe somebody mentioned something to that effect earlier in the thread?

Why, that sounds like a reason! Particularly the alignment. Oh and look, there's that one line you quoted.

Greg the vamp was changed enough to let Belkar put a stake in him. Once Durkon cloned, why treat the clone differently? Because the old dead personality was evil? That seems odd to me.

Not much point arguing this further I suppose. Restating our positions won't convince anybody. We'll see how things go.

You assume the old version was completely gone. Durkon himself did not. I see no reason to believe your assumption over Durkon's

[Fyraltari]

4) Durkon and Greg have fused into a single entity.[...] It also means that Durkon now has access to everything the vampire knew about Hel's plans and such.
I highly doubt Hel had plans further than "trick the council into making Dvalin vote "Yes"" and Durkon would know the rest of Durkon*'s plans because he was there when they were given to the Ex-exarch.

Being temporarily overwhelmed by another person's personality shortly before death isn't really a particularly compelling reason to treat them differently in the afterlife.
That's using "another person" slightly loosely here. Besides if this is Durkon#2 (and I am 100% sure it is not) then the personnality change was not temporary and that becomes a question about rehabilitation and wether you should treat people based on who they are or who they were. But I am certain this is Durkon#1 and Durkon#2 was destroyed.

Durkon's attitude is perfectly understandable. "That wasn't me, that was Evil Me. Which was also me. Yes, it's confusing." We've seen this kind of thing in everything from Star Trek to Stargate to soap operas. It's going to take him a little while to get straight, but that doesn't mean he's actually the vampire spirit. He's Durkon having escaped domination by a vampire spirit. I really don't expect any big plot point to come out of these verbal tics, unless it's the fact that Durkon has a load of guilt over his body doing things he couldn't prevent while Greg was driving it around.

This was really a prime example of Grand Theft Me (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandTheftMe) for Durkon, his body and mind were stolen and he had no say in what was done with them, yet he's going to bear the burden for the vampire's actions. As far as the world is concerned, Vampire Durkon and Durkon are the same person. I think he's internalized a lot of that as well.
This.

[nmphuong91]

Greg is overwhelmed by Durkon's memory, became confused and believed that he is Durkon shortly before death. So, if Xykon has amnesia, believed that he is Durkon and kill Redcloak then commit suicide, would he met Thor in Valhalla? Would his spirit become a dwarf spirit? Would you pity Xykon if he is simply gone for good?

Before you say: But Greg is Durkon, consider this: Despite his claim that he is Durkon in his worst day, there are many evidence to the contrary.
- Greg worshipped Hel.
- Greg enjoys making people suffer.
- Greg wanted to destroy the world.
- Greg never considered Durkon's family his (regarding his feeling toward Sigdi and Kudzu).
- Greg after overwhelmed by memory still feel negative energy squirming.
- Greg's a vampire spirit.
Which day in Durkon's life was that? He is just a parasitic bodysnatcher that eventually adopts his host's identity as his own because he doesn't have one. This bodysnatcher screwed up and bited more than he can chew and became a tool for the force of good temporarily. But that doesn't make him eligible for any reward in the afterlife, reward that people worked for their entire life, struggle with whatever hardship came their way and still steadfast in their path of good (sometimes not and have to redeem themselves) . If just six(?) seconds of good deed is enough to overturn an entire life of evil, then the afterlife system is badly screwed.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon* is Durkon at the end. That's literally what the comic shows us. He doesn't have any other identity (unlike suffering-from-a-personnality-disorder Xykon you proposed).

If you only give him Durkon's worst day he becomes an evil murderer, he becomes all the bad parts of Durkon, the one that are kept in part by the rest of him.
If you give him all of Durkon's life he becomes Durkon.

No more complicated than that.

Is letting Belkar kill him so that the world will be easier to save enough to compensate for an entire week of evil deeds?
I'm not really sure why we are asking this since his not-being-on-the-demi-plane-of-judgment-or-whatever-it-is-called pretty much guarantees that he was obliterated.

[MADCrab]

Being temporarily overwhelmed by another person's personality shortly before death isn't really a particularly compelling reason to treat them differently in the afterlife.
Why not? If through some magic or technology you copy your brain over somebody else's, I would hope we all agree that the original is gone, and you now have two of the copyee. Seems weird to judge the clone by the original host's actions. I mean, just imagine the guy doing the copying was Hitler, and the guy getting overwritten was Jesus or something...


Also, MadCrad, you keep going on about how Vampire Durkon is a special case so anything can go, but he's not special because of any traits directly related to him.
He was not special. What happened to him was (didn't the Giant say it had never happened before?). I agree, that's the weakest point in the theory. Given that the comic doesn't limit itself to any particular rule though, I just think it's reasonable (not necessarily correct!) to think it might get waived for this plot line.


You assume the old version was completely gone.
I do not assume anything. I think that it is reasonable to think the change could have been permanent. Durkon said "No telling if it will last," not "I can't hold on." And if you want character development, well, "I'm not who I thought I was" is a classic.

Durkon's attitude is perfectly understandable. That's a decent enough theory, and it falls short of the Stockholm syndrome stuff. I've got nothing against it.


Is letting Belkar kill him so that the world will be easier to save enough to compensate for an entire week of evil deeds? Maybe what we're going to see is "I'd really love to let you in, Durkon, but... you're not the original. And you're gonna need to put a bit more effort in."
That doesn't really seem to fit with what we've seen of Thor, though.


Before you say: But Greg is Durkon I say Greg is Durkon, because Durkon said Greg is Durkon. I keep saying "This is Greg" is plausible, not absolutely, 100% true, but I have absolutely no reason to think Greg was not Durkon at the end. Maybe the negative energy whateverdoodle would have gotten him, but at time of death? Durkon.

[nmphuong91]

If you only give him Durkon's worst day he becomes an evil murderer.

Pure speculation without any evidence or logic, that is already far too complicated for me. I am incapable of making such "Miko logic leap monk feat".

Rome wasn't created in a single day. You think an evil murderer can be created in merely one day? As if! Anger, rage, or even murderous rage can be made in a single moment. You can kill someone in anger but to kill without regret takes a lot of practice. However, sadism of Greg's level need years to brew. Every trait need time to strengthen, deepen, take roots, time which Greg do not have. Greg was, clearly, a natural born evil, a natural born murderer (opposed to nurturing evil), who commit evil as natural as mortal breathing. Which, Durkon even in his worst day is not.
Greg's deep devotion to Hel is something that living creature take years to reach, with a good reason to follow Hel, with time spend to study Hel's dogma like any cleric and priest do. Unlike Durkon who praised Hel to take veangence on folk who wronged him, Greg's devotion for Hel is one of pure admiration, without reason, without any benefit attached.
Greg is also calculating and cunning. Is Durkon in his worst day that cunning? Or is he blinded with rage?

All in all, you might have a point ONLY if Greg was born fifty years ago, not merely 3 days or so.



I say Greg is Durkon, because Durkon said Greg is Durkon.
Durkon never said so. I only got this instead "Tha vampire's been walkin around inside me corpse, pretendin' ta be me an' holding me spirit hostage." It is not "My evil half, my worst day, my evil clone"...merely the vampire, and not even "my vampire".
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html

[Rrmcklin]

Also, I'll note this is the only thread MadCrab actually posts in. Maybe it's jumping to conclusions, but the way this entire discussion has been going honestly makes me think they might just be trolling.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Also, I'll note this is the only thread MadCrab actually posts in. Maybe it's jumping to conclusions, but the way this entire discussion has been going honestly makes me think they might just be trolling.

Maybe. I wonder if greg is going to come back in some capacity, making a sacrifice so that real durkon can succeed.

That, or not at all and is destroyed and has as much capacity of coming back as that chimera killed in the 1st dungeon.

[MADCrab]

Durkon never said so. I only got this instead "Tha vampire's been walkin around inside me corpse, pretendin' ta be me an' holding me spirit hostage." It is not "My evil half, my worst day, my evil clone"...merely the vampire, and not even "my vampire".Seriously? Look at 1130 and 1131.
"Yer me."
"Quit pattin ourselves on the back."
I've tried to be clear what I'm talking about when I say "Greg." I explicitly pointed out that I was using it as a shorthand for "The Durkon copy," not the original vampire personality.


Also, I'll note this is the only thread MadCrab actually posts in. Maybe it's jumping to conclusions, but the way this entire discussion has been going honestly makes me think they might just be trolling.
Thanks just a bunch. I have a soft spot for questions of mind copying and personhood, so I took note of the thread. Then I saw people dogpile Wolvesbane over it, and make up some insane stuff as more likely.

So I signed up, and I'm only posting here right now. Honestly I shouldn't be doing that, I've got crap to do - but people keep stretching what I say out in the weirdest ways, so I jump in again and get caught up in it.
I swear, the weirdest part of all this is that I'm not even insisting this is true, just narratively plausible.

[Rrmcklin]

I'll just point out that if this is Vampire Durkon what would be the point in hiding that? How is that an interesting twist if he's fundamentally exactly the same as Durkon now?

On the underhand, though, I could certainly believe most people in the living world wouldn't see them the same, his family and the Order because they don't just care about memories of doing things, they care about the actual Durkon.

No matter how you try and justify if it, the Durkon who actually lived, played with, and fought for his family and the Order just has more meaning than a creature who until only a few minutes ago didn't feel any legitimate connection to any of them.

So not only does it make no sense to flat out say it if it's the case, it's only just not nearly as engaging emotionally.


Thanks just a bunch. I have a soft spot for questions of mind copying and personhood, so I took note of the thread. Then I saw people dogpile Wolvesbane over it, and make up some insane stuff as more likely.

No one dogpiled anyone, it's just a natural consequence of most people finding the scenario unlikely for the all the reasons they've described.


So I signed up, and I'm only posting here right now. Honestly I shouldn't be doing that, I've got crap to do - but people keep stretching what I say out in the weirdest ways, so I jump in again and get caught up in it.
I swear, the weirdest part of all this is that I'm not even insisting this is true, just narratively plausible.

Many things are "narratively plausible", far less are actually likely or implied by the work. This Durkon not being the actual Durkon is in the latter group. It's not our faults you refuse acknowledge that. Although, it's not even narratively plausible anymore.

[Ruck]

Why not? If through some magic or technology you copy your brain over somebody else's, I would hope we all agree that the original is gone, and you now have two of the copyee. Seems weird to judge the clone by the original host's actions. I mean, just imagine the guy doing the copying was Hitler, and the guy getting overwritten was Jesus or something...
You don't, though. You have one human soul and one negative-energy spirit squirming around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) that's had human data downloaded onto it.

I also can't see a way to make the Durkon we see now actually the vampire spirit without it being bad writing.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, Thor is talking about Durkon being resurrected. How exactly would that work for the vampire spirit? It doesn't have a body of its own, it was controlling Durkon's against his will.

What, would Thor highjack the spell, so it would target the vampire to go back into the revived body? Because if Thor wasn't even comfortable telling Durkon to return to life (if offered the chance) instead of going to Valhalla, I really doubt he'd be fine not even giving original Durkon the chance to return to his body.

Nothing in the last strip makes any sense if this is the vampire spirit. It's a simple as that.

[Kish]

Durkon never had and likely never will have a human soul.

(Soul Bind is on his spell list, but I don't see him ever preparing it.)

[Ruck]

Right, right, humanoid, sentient mortal, what have you.

[WolvesbaneIII]

You don't, though. You have one human soul and one negative-energy spirit squirming around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) that's had human data downloaded onto it.

I also can't see a way to make the Durkon we see now actually the vampire spirit without it being bad writing.

You're mostly correct. it would need some amount of good writing and set up to not be contrived.

seeing as this is an unprecedented scenario in the first place, and its thor, a well known drunk among gods is the one who was looking for durkon, he might have gotten the paper work wrong and found *durkon by accident.

I'm actually going to just go ahead and say its going to be played straight and it really is the real durkon, and not every story has to have some kind of weird plot twist.

I created this thread because for a few minutes I thought it was vampire durkon, and came to my senses immediately, but wanted to get other peoples perspective on it.

[Ruck]

You're mostly correct. it would need some amount of good writing and set up to not be contrived.

seeing as this is an unprecedented scenario in the first place, and its thor, a well known drunk among gods is the one who was looking for durkon, he might have gotten the paper work wrong and found *durkon by accident.

I'm actually going to just go ahead and say its going to be played straight and it really is the real durkon, and not every story has to have some kind of weird plot twist.

I created this thread because for a few minutes I thought it was vampire durkon, and came to my senses immediately, but wanted to get other peoples perspective on it.

Well, I think the rules for negative energy spirits apply unless we have reason to believe otherwise, which means "Greg" would have merged back into the negative energy plane.

I also think a lot of people these days like to predict twists for the sake of twists, but I don't think Rich does that; the twists in the story have been foreshadowed and make both logical and narrative sense. (Honestly, this is what I blame George R.R. Martin for even more than people thinking he invented the idea of seeming protagonists dying; he buried so many clues to the "real" story in the prose in his books, that now people spend time trying to open the mystery box of truth in even fairly straightforward stories.)

[Lombard]

Personally I like the idea of where it takes the reader if it's never settled, like V's gender.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Well, I think the rules for negative energy spirits apply unless we have reason to believe otherwise, which means "Greg" would have merged back into the negative energy plane.

I also think a lot of people these days like to predict twists for the sake of twists, but I don't think Rich does that; the twists in the story have been foreshadowed and make both logical and narrative sense. (Honestly, this is what I blame George R.R. Martin for even more than people thinking he invented the idea of seeming protagonists dying; he buried so many clues to the "real" story in the prose in his books, that now people spend time trying to open the mystery box of truth in even fairly straightforward stories.)

I'm certainly not disputing that, but there are times when rule of cool and rule of funny and rule of bad ass apply.

this would be none of them because its not funny or cool.

I would think it might fall under rule of funny MAYBE if it was a drunk after life clerk who put *durkon in valhalla and not durkon. A clerical error, much like how enma daioh in dbz sorts things through paperwork and the after life is like a bureaucracy.

Wasn't there a joke like that with roy when he died? fake durkon gets all of thors wisdom he needs due to an oversight by a deva and he's then sent to the negative energy realm and this sets the story on a cliff hanger. fake durkon doesn't have to be around any longer than that, his story is played out.

I doubt things would play out like this. It's just a neat thing to add to the discussion. I really just like discussing the fantasy world this is set in.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, I think the rules for negative energy spirits apply unless we have reason to believe otherwise, which means "Greg" would have merged back into the negative energy plane.

I also think a lot of people these days like to predict twists for the sake of twists, but I don't think Rich does that; the twists in the story have been foreshadowed and make both logical and narrative sense. (Honestly, this is what I blame George R.R. Martin for even more than people thinking he invented the idea of seeming protagonists dying; he buried so many clues to the "real" story in the prose in his books, that now people spend time trying to open the mystery box of truth in even fairly straightforward stories.)

Basically this. I can't think of anything interesting this would actually add to the character, but several ways in which it would make several things less meaningful. Both from a narrative and logical stand point it doesn't hold water.

It's borderline (but not quite yet) run into going "This improbable thing that has very little if anything actually implying it, but it hasn't been directly said to be untrue, so it's probably true."

[Darth Paul]

I also think a lot of people these days like to predict twists for the sake of twists, but I don't think Rich does that; the twists in the story have been foreshadowed and make both logical and narrative sense. (Honestly, this is what I blame George R.R. Martin for even more than people thinking he invented the idea of seeming protagonists dying; he buried so many clues to the "real" story in the prose in his books, that now people spend time trying to open the mystery box of truth in even fairly straightforward stories.)

I blame GRRM for so much more than that.

[Ruck]

Well, it's important to start somewhere. I just wanted to highlight the under-reported damage he's done to how people experience stories.

[Fyraltari]

Pure speculation without any evidence or logic, that is already far too complicated for me. I am incapable of making such "Miko logic leap monk feat".
Not pure speculation. What the comic presents here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html). You can disagree with that but then say "I don't think this resolution or character makes sense".


Rome wasn't created in a single day. You think an evil murderer can be created in merely one day? As if! Anger, rage, or even murderous rage can be made in a single moment. You can kill someone in anger but to kill without regret takes a lot of practice. However, sadism of Greg's level need years to brew. Every trait need time to strengthen, deepen, take roots, time which Greg do not have. Greg was, clearly, a natural born evil, a natural born murderer (opposed to nurturing evil), who commit evil as natural as mortal breathing. Which, Durkon even in his worst day is not.
That's true for real persons. Because real people don't get to experience a life out of order. They have to go through an entire liffe to understand how the world works and to have their personnality shaped by it. Everyone has every character trait to some extent, but they all confront each other. A personnality is just which of those traits are stronger.

Durkon* however was created ex nihilo with the necessary intelligence to interact functionnally with the world (thralldom notwithstanding) but no emotionnal experience of it. He was then given one memory, one of hate, anger and rejection so that is what his personnality formed around. He has as much rage and hate as Durkon's but where Durkon has rage and empathy he has nothing, so these negative traits are undiluted, unoposed. That's why he his evil. That's not why Xykon or Nale are Evil because they had a whole life, but why he is.

Greg's deep devotion to Hel is something that living creature take years to reach, with a good reason to follow Hel, with time spend to study Hel's dogma like any cleric and priest do. Unlike Durkon who praised Hel to take veangence on folk who wronged him, Greg's devotion for Hel is one of pure admiration, without reason, without any benefit attached.
I don't see that at all. Durkon*'s service to Hel appears, to me, to be mere mutual benefits. By serving Hel he can reach his own goals (that is as much suffering as possible for the Dwarves). He says as much here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).


Greg is also calculating and cunning. Is Durkon in his worst day that cunning? Or is he blinded with rage?
I think #1130 shows that Durkon can be just as cunning as Durkon#. It's his lack of assertiveness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) that prevented hium to show that side of him not said side's absence. As for rage that's the entire point. His life's experience is what gives Durkon the ability to overcome his rage. The life experience Durkon* lacks.

All in all, you might have a point ONLY if Greg was born fifty years ago, not merely 3 days or so.
No because if the vampire had 50 years of life behind him, he would have had a life. He would be evil for his own reasons like Tarquin or Redcloak. Or Malack. Not simply because he isn't Durkon enough to be Good.


Durkon never said so. I only got this instead "Tha vampire's been walkin around inside me corpse, pretendin' ta be me an' holding me spirit hostage." It is not "My evil half, my worst day, my evil clone"...merely the vampire, and not even "my vampire".
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1132.html
Yes he does. Last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

[Fish]

Do I think there's something interesting about Durkon's inability to discern his own actions from that of the vampires? Yes.

Do I think it's a plot point? Maybe.

Am I going to try to predict why it's happening? ...No. No, I'm not.

I don't think this particular plot point is susceptible to prediction. The D&D rules say one thing, but Rich is not bound to them. The artwork depicted Durkon's spirit tied up inside his skull, separate from the Durkula spirit — but this is probably a visual metaphor for something, so I can't really say there are two spirits, or one spirit, or get at the underlying truth the metaphor is built upon. Were there really two spirits? Only one? Does it really matter? No — because even if we could predict why it's happening, I don't think that's the point.

What I take away is this: that the Durkon that we see has the memories of Durkula because it's necessary for him to know those things that Durkula knew — such as the plans of the Exarch, or Hel's machinations, or whatever. How this was accomplished — merging of two discrete spirits, it was Durkon all along, the two spirits got re-routed to the wrong afterlife, whatever — is not important as we go from here.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Do I think there's something interesting about Durkon's inability to discern his own actions from that of the vampires? Yes.

Do I think it's a plot point? Maybe.

Am I going to try to predict why it's happening? ...No. No, I'm not.

I don't think this particular plot point is susceptible to prediction. The D&D rules say one thing, but Rich is not bound to them. The artwork depicted Durkon's spirit tied up inside his skull, separate from the Durkula spirit — but this is probably a visual metaphor for something, so I can't really say there are two spirits, or one spirit, or get at the underlying truth the metaphor is built upon. Were there really two spirits? Only one? Does it really matter? No — because even if we could predict why it's happening, I don't think that's the point.

What I take away is this: that the Durkon that we see has the memories of Durkula because it's necessary for him to know those things that Durkula knew — such as the plans of the Exarch, or Hel's machinations, or whatever. How this was accomplished — merging of two discrete spirits, it was Durkon all along, the two spirits got re-routed to the wrong afterlife, whatever — is not important as we go from here.

Thats true. Rich doesn't have to use d&d rules to the T. He can change anything for the sake of the story. Like when thor used sonic damage to nuke some trees, when thats not how the thing works.

I don't think he will use fake durkon anymore than a cut away gag, but if he does use him at all for a pivotal plot twist, he'd need to foreshadow it so that it won't be perceived as a plot contrivance.

What other things did the giant change for a good joke or story related thing that doesn't jive with real D&D? I'd like to hear about it.

[nmphuong91]

Not pure speculation. What the comic presents here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

That comic represent nothing of the sort "If you only give him Durkon's worst day he becomes an evil murderer". I'd envision that if you only give him Durkon's worst day, he'd becomes Harley (Gold over honor, but still neutral). Some might say that he will becomes Tarquin or Malack. The possibility is endless. It's hard to disagree with a baseless idea there is no way to logically agree or disagree with it. So I will just say that it's baseless.



That's true for real persons. Because real people don't get to experience a life out of order. They have to go through an entire liffe to understand how the world works and to have their personnality shaped by it. Everyone has every character trait to some extent, but they all confront each other. A personnality is just which of those traits are stronger.

Durkon* however was created ex nihilo with the necessary intelligence to interact functionnally with the world (thralldom notwithstanding) but no emotionnal experience of it. He was then given one memory, one of hate, anger and rejection so that is what his personnality formed around. He has as much rage and hate as Durkon's but where Durkon has rage and empathy he has nothing, so these negative traits are undiluted, unoposed. That's why he his evil. That's not why Xykon or Nale are Evil because they had a whole life, but why he is.


The problem is not "Why Xykon...", but "How?". Evil, you see, "come with many possible capitalizations". Xykon, Nale, Tarquin, Malack, Thog, Sabine, IFFF...they are all evil. Each of them is an unique kind of evil. If he has as much rage and hate as Durkon does, yes, he will be evil. But which kind?. With that much rage and hate, he could go "screw the world, I am hoarding gold". He could go with "veangence against dwarf priest of Thor, and no one else". He could become vengeful, but enjoy none of it ("There is nothing left for me but veangence" route). He could go with "I am evil, that is how I am, so what?" like Malack, who do evil with a matter-of-fact face. He could conquer a region for himself and style him "Count Durkula", who constantly wage war against the dwarf. But no, he went out of his way to make other suffer, he enjoy every act of evil he does, he is having a blast doing evil. So, who chose his path to villainy? Who chose to worship Hel instead of any other evil god? Can't be Durkon in one day, because living creature can't build their path to evil in such a short time. Also, remember that Durkon know even less joy than other OOTS member, and yet the vampire knows perharps too much joy doing evil. Perhaps he could even teach Malack and many other about "how to enjoy (un)life". So, you see, he already have many trait that are completely seperated from Durkon. If it were evil Durkon for real, I'd say that he will constantly say "no hard feeling, I am doing my evil duty" without smiling once.



I don't see that at all. Durkon*'s service to Hel appears, to me, to be mere mutual benefits. By serving Hel he can reach his own goals (that is as much suffering as possible for the Dwarves). He says as much here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html).

That is called using one lie to reinforce another. I already call bs on "I am your worst day", there is no way I can believe anything Greg say in that strip. Remember that Durkon never confirmed what he said.



Yes he does. Last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html)

That is not Greg. Simply as that. "I knew thar had ta be some reason why 'e dinnae just absorb ev'rythin' tha moment 'e took over!". Who is "he" in this sentence if you say that is "Greg"?

Yogurt is yogurt, milk is milk. A spoon of yogurt will turn a bottle of milk to a bottle of yogurt given time. But if you pour an entire bottle of milk to a bottle with a spoon worth of yogurt? You will get a bottle of milk. A bottle of milk that said "I c'n feel tha negative energy (fermentation bacteria) squrimin' around. Thar's no way ta know if'n this'll last.".

The problem is, you gave a liar too much credit that you take anything he said as the truth while failed to consider the alternative. Despite that he constantly lying to mess with other people for fun. And even if he is not lying, he knows too little about the world and might have been lied to by Hel. If Hel say that he is Durkon's worst day, how could he think otherwise?

[Rrmcklin]

I don't see that at all. Durkon*'s service to Hel appears, to me, to be mere mutual benefits. By serving Hel he can reach his own goals (that is as much suffering as possible for the Dwarves). He says as much here.

Rich confirmed that isn't true. He served Hel because he's a cleric. That he personally enjoyed his work doesn't change that his loyalty wasn't any less genuine that Durkon's was to Thor.


That is called using one lie to reinforce another. I already call bs on "I am your worst day", there is no way I can believe anything Greg say in that strip. Remember that Durkon never confirmed what he said.

You call bs on something we're never given a reason to doubt? Durkon's entire gambit relied on "Yes, that's true... but you're also who you are on every other day." There's never anything to indicate that Greg wasn't being entirely sincere when he said that.


The problem is, you gave a liar too much credit that you take anything he said as the truth while failed to consider the alternative. Despite that he constantly lying to mess with other people for fun. And even if he is not lying, he knows too little about the world and might have been lied to by Hel. If Hel say that he is Durkon's worst day, how could he think otherwise?

The problem is that you don't understand the context of lying. When Greg lied it served an actual purpose to meet his ends. Greg had almost total control of their eternal environment, there was simply no reason for him to lie to Durkon. More to the point, things like "speed of thought" and "I am who you are on your worst day" are exposition given to use about how vampires function in the story. Them being lies contributes nothing to the story.

And you're also arguing that Hel would just lie and tell her vampire spirit he's Durkon on his worst day because...? There's being open to alternatives, and then there's blatantly ignoring facts when the story presents them to you because you don't like how they make you feel.

[Peelee]

Dunno where you're getting that.

Yes, this is Durkon. That doesn't mean it's not the Vampire, too. That was the whole point of Durkon's play. If Thor's as reasonable as is being shown (or has need for a negative-energy spirit, vampire, or whatever) he's still going to acknowledge that yes, you're Durkon.

Again and again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but I think it's pretty bloody obvious at this point that the slips are a plot point. Heck, it was obvious the first time, now it's smacking people about the head for attention.

I think between "Durkon is having a mental break" and "This is vampire flavour Durkon (same Lawful Good taste!)" the second is narratively more likely. In reality, sure the mental break option is pretty much guaranteed, but this isn't reality.
A hundred gold says you're wrong.

Offer's still good, btw.

[Fyraltari]

The problem is not "Why Xykon...", but "How?". Evil, you see, "come with many possible capitalizations". Xykon, Nale, Tarquin, Malack, Thog, Sabine, IFFF...they are all evil. Each of them is an unique kind of evil. If he has as much rage and hate as Durkon does, yes, he will be evil. But which kind?. With that much rage and hate, he could go "screw the world, I am hoarding gold". He could go with "veangence against dwarf priest of Thor, and no one else". He could become vengeful, but enjoy none of it ("There is nothing left for me but veangence" route). He could go with "I am evil, that is how I am, so what?" like Malack, who do evil with a matter-of-fact face. He could conquer a region for himself and style him "Count Durkula", who constantly wage war against the dwarf. But no, he went out of his way to make other suffer, he enjoy every act of evil he does, he is having a blast doing evil. So, who chose his path to villainy? Who chose to worship Hel instead of any other evil god? Can't be Durkon in one day, because living creature can't build their path to evil in such a short time.
Hel was there the very moment he was created. He wanted some way to hurt the dwarves and was immediately given that on a silver plater. Why would he go out of his way to find a second way to do what he can already?

Also, remember that Durkon know even less joy than other OOTS member, and yet the vampire knows perharps too much joy doing evil. Perhaps he could even teach Malack and many other about "how to enjoy (un)life".
I'm sorry, what? I don't see how Durkon "knows less joy than the others". I mean he is an exile and his one romantic partner turned out to be not what he wanted at all, so he has reasons to be unhappy, but all things considered he is pretty upbeat. And I don't see Vamp Durkon taking more pleasure in his atrocities than Malack or other vilains.

So, you see, he already have many trait that are completely seperated from Durkon. If it were evil Durkon for real, I'd say that he will constantly say "no hard feeling, I am doing my evil duty" without smiling once.
A dedication to duty over personnal happiness is a good trait (in general as with all statements like this specifics gets fuzzy), something Durkon* lacked.
And Durkon often takes pleasure in doing his duty (helping people aand such).



That is called using one lie to reinforce another. I already call bs on "I am your worst day", there is no way I can believe anything Greg say in that strip. Remember that Durkon never confirmed what he said.


The problem is, you gave a liar too much credit that you take anything he said as the truth while failed to consider the alternative. Despite that he constantly lying to mess with other people for fun. And even if he is not lying, he knows too little about the world and might have been lied to by Hel. If Hel say that he is Durkon's worst day, how could he think otherwise?

You call bs on something we're never given a reason to doubt? Durkon's entire gambit relied on "Yes, that's true... but you're also who you are on every other day." There's never anything to indicate that Greg wasn't being entirely sincere when he said that.



The problem is that you don't understand the context of lying. When Greg lied it served an actual purpose to meet his ends. Greg had almost total control of their eternal environment, there was simply no reason for him to lie to Durkon. More to the point, things like "speed of thought" and "I am who you are on your worst day" are exposition given to use about how vampires function in the story. Them being lies contributes nothing to do story.

And you're also arguing that Hel would just lie and tell her vampire spirit he's Durkon on his worst day because...? There's being open to alternatives, and then there's blatantly ignoring facts when the story presents them to you because you don't like how they make you feel.
Yeah, what Rrmcklin said.
Besides what is the alternative? The character is delusionnal/(reasonlessly) lying about his identity yet the plan based around that very understanding of his identity still worked?



That is not Greg. Simply as that. "I knew thar had ta be some reason why 'e dinnae just absorb ev'rythin' tha moment 'e took over!". Who is "he" in this sentence if you say that is "Greg"?
Who is that "Anakin Skywalker" Lord Vader sometimes talk about? The same guy with a personnality which has changed so much he refers to his past self as an other person to signify that.


Yogurt is yogurt, milk is milk. A spoon of yogurt will turn a bottle of milk to a bottle of yogurt given time. But if you pour an entire bottle of milk to a bottle with a spoon worth of yogurt? You will get a bottle of milk. A bottle of milk that said "I c'n feel tha negative energy (fermentation bacteria) squrimin' around. Thar's no way ta know if'n this'll last.".
What exactly is your point with that analogy?




Rich confirmed that isn't true. He served Hel because he's a cleric. That he personally enjoyed his work doesn't change that his loyalty wasn't any less genuine that Durkon's was to Thor.
Hmm. I don't remember that. Where can I find that statement?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmm. I don't remember that. Where can I find that statement.

The closest thing I can find is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page10&p=17331234#post17331234) quote, which while implying that the former High Priest of Hel didn’t have to worship Hel (assuming he, as a cleric, acted similar to Malack), I don’t think rules out your theory (or a combination of yours and Rrmcklin’s).

[WolvesbaneIII]

looks like vampre durkon is done.

They are going straight to the astral plane next. Not the negative energy plane.

I'm not D&D savvy. what kind of beings can survive the negative energy plane? I've heard next to nothing can. if not nothing at all. Can a creature survive there? I'm guessing fake durkon has already returned there and is now dissolved back into it.

[SodaQueen]

looks like vampre durkon is done.

They are going straight to the astral plane next. Not the negative energy plane.

I'm not D&D savvy. what kind of beings can survive the negative energy plane? I've heard next to nothing can. if not nothing at all. Can a creature survive there? I'm guessing fake durkon has already returned there and is now dissolved back into it.I don't recall what the native residents are but if I remember correctly, undead can survive there just fine. Which is weird because the plane of positive energy is potentially dangerous to loving creatures.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I don't recall what the native residents are but if I remember correctly, undead can survive there just fine. Which is weird because the plane of positive energy is potentially dangerous to loving creatures.

so undead can survive there. Good to know. What can survive in the positive energy plane then?

[hamishspence]

What can survive in the positive energy plane then?

Ravids:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm

I would conjecture that they get to ignore the Positive Dominant exploding trait, even if it doesn't actually state this outright in the statblock:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveDominant

A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.

same with any other race native to that Plane, like xag-ya energons from Manual of the Planes. Or Lumi from MM3, or creatures with the Vivacious template from Planar Handbook - both of which do have text specifying that adaptation to the plane means never gaining those additional temporary hit points.

Somebody who looked like a Lumi (floating, glowing head above humanoid body) appeared in Origin of PCs when Roy was recruiting - saying "I'll pass".


By RAW, undead gain the temporary hit points but are immune to the exploding trait, because it requires a Fort save and doesn't work on objects.


However, because undead are famously damaged by positive energy (such as that channelled by the Cure Light Wounds spell) I would rule that they automatically lose 2 or 5 (for minor and major positive dominant respectively) hit points per round in a positive-dominant plane, unless protected.

[KorvinStarmast]

The problem is, you gave a liar too much credit that you take anything he said as the truth while failed to consider the alternative. Liars and propagandists rely on that ... it's one of their core ploys in their general modus operandi. :smallwink:

[Darth Paul]

Liars and propagandists rely on that ... it's one of their core ploys in their general modus operandi. :smallwink:

So you're saying a vampire spirit is... a politician?

[Rrmcklin]

Well, this latest strip definitively answers this question.

Tp whoever said the two have merged, good guess.

[Fyraltari]

Yep, merging it was, congratulations on those who guessed it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Yep, merging it was, congratulations on those who guessed it.

well, yeah. it definitely wasn't stokholm syndrome or some other personality disorder. magic memory combination was the thing after all.

Guess its official. unless this is some off the wall plot swerve, this is the real durkon, and thats it!

So malak is in his after life and has the vampire malaks memories too. That's gotta be a tough thing to process.

I really doubt the author has any intention of misleading the audience, unless he's going to pull a cell saga thing where its "oops! goku ended up with the heart virus any way!" swerve. I doubt it.

[MADCrab]

There we go! Now the theory has been done in by comic canon.

Though that's gotta have some long-term complications. Hmm, arguably it doesn't matter which one of the two Durkons this Durkon came from - if he's got "both sets of thoughts" he's as much Greg as Durkon-Greg would have been? That's weird to think about.

[Rrmcklin]

Course' there was nothing ever indicating the theory was likely in the first place...

And there's nothing really weird about it. Durkula had about a week's worth of memories. Give Durkon another week and the issue will probably be done for.

[MADCrab]

Course' there was nothing ever indicating the theory was likely in the first place...

And there's nothing really weird about it. Durkula had about a week's worth of memories. Give Durkon another week and the issue will probably be done for.

You do you, mklin. Dunno how you think the "Mellon Splatter" effect is more plausible than "Vamp-Durkon gets recruited" when they're both about as likely by RAW.

As for "Give him a week," that'd be a bit of a violation of conservation of detail. We've spent several strips dwelling on this now - if it doesn't come up in some significant way down the line it'd be a fair bit of wasted page space.

[Kish]

You do you, mklin. Dunno how you think the "Mellon Splatter" effect is more plausible than "Vamp-Durkon gets recruited" when they're both about as likely by RAW.
Probably for a reason unrelated to RAW.


As for "Give him a week," that'd be a bit of a violation of conservation of detail. We've spent several strips dwelling on this now - if it doesn't come up in some significant way down the line it'd be a fair bit of wasted page space.
I know someone who said "Conservation of detail is overrated."

Probably nothing to do with this comic, but you base your predictions on strange reasoning.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So malak is in his after life and has the vampire malaks memories too. That's gotta be a tough thing to process.

Not necessarily. OG Malack didn't beat Vampire Malack the same way that Durkon beat Greg. Durkon ended with some of Greg memories due to using his head as a rock to splatter Greg's melon. Malack never fell for that.

Grey Wolf

[WolvesbaneIII]

Not necessarily. OG Malack didn't beat Vampire Malack the same way that Durkon beat Greg. Durkon ended with some of Greg memories due to using his head as a rock to splatter Greg's melon. Malack never fell for that.

Grey Wolf

he's in the after life though. He should be in his after life with some of the same if not all the same issues as durkon. He might not have to "beat" his vampire self to suffer the same issues.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

he's in the after life though. He should be in his after life with some of the same if not all the same issues as durkon. He might not have to "beat" his vampire self to suffer the same issues.

Two issues:

1) Its the astral plane that is causing the issue, not the afterlife.
2) The issue was caused, according to Thor's metaphor, due to cracking the mind of the vampire.

Now, you want to headcanon that Thor was wrong and that the issue arises not just in the astral plane but in all the non-material plane, and that it doesn't require the mind of the vampire to be taken over by the memories of the host? Fine. But that ain't canon.

Grey Wolf

[WolvesbaneIII]

Two issues:

1) Its the astral plane that is causing the issue, not the afterlife.
2) The issue was caused, according to Thor's metaphor, due to cracking the mind of the vampire.

Now, you want to headcanon that Thor was wrong and that the issue arises not just in the astral plane but in all the non-material plane, and that it doesn't require the mind of the vampire to be taken over by the memories of the host? Fine. But that ain't canon.

Grey Wolf

durkon was getting sick because of the astral plane. he was already muddled up with the vampire thoughts while in valhalla, and did that 2x before thor even showed up.

when he said "mushing the minds together" doesn't mean necessarily that it was because he won over the vampire, but it certainly could. its worded rather vaguely.

[martianmister]

As I said before, Durkon and HPoH's souls and memories could ve merged.

What I won?

[WolvesbaneIII]

What I won?

You won the argument. or at least won the most likely plot descriptor for how vampires work.

[Rrmcklin]

You do you, mklin. Dunno how you think the "Mellon Splatter" effect is more plausible than "Vamp-Durkon gets recruited" when they're both about as likely by RAW.

For all the reasons I and other people stated, including that Durkon having some mental issues after the whole affair would be perfectly reasonable, and us not following actual Durkon, but instead a vampire, without it being explicitly stated made no narrative sense whatsoever. Nor were the ideas for why Thor would "need" a vampire at all convincing. This was all expressed to you several times, you simply didn't want to listen.


As for "Give him a week," that'd be a bit of a violation of conservation of detail. We've spent several strips dwelling on this now - if it doesn't come up in some significant way down the line it'd be a fair bit of wasted page space.

Something significant can happen in a week; this entire ordeal has explicitly happened in a week. That doesn't mean this confusion will remain with Durkon forever, because the Vampires existence was, ultimately, short and fleeting.

[WolvesbaneIII]

For all the reasons I and other people stated, including that Durkon having some mental issues after the whole affair would be perfectly reasonable, and us not following actual Durkon, but instead a vampire, without it being explicitly stated made no narrative sense whatsoever. Nor were the ideas for why Thor would "need" a vampire at all convincing. This was all expressed to you several times, you simply didn't want to listen.



Something significant can happen in a week; this entire ordeal has explicitly happened in a week. That doesn't mean this confusion will remain with Durkon forever, because the Vampires existence was, ultimately, short and fleeting.

well, he doesn't have mental issues, so much as he has 2 memories. unless you meant actual mental issues aside from some kind of mental illness, then yes, his mental faculties are impacted to the point of having "issues".

as for this being the vampire, we didn't know how post vampirism worked in OOTS until now. the typical fashion assumed was that the vampire spirit was sent to the negative energy realm and merged right then and there nd was no more. this spirit was "different" in the sense his host was able to over power him, a feat not seen ever, so his spirit could be construed as different in that sense. Should he be no more than he was before, well thats fine. that would be the standard protocol being used again and would fit.

This whole thread was started as a means to convey a slight suspicion on my part, and we've gone past the part where its necessary to draw things out.

most people agree its really durkon including my self. it was fun to speculate on whether it was a vampire spirit who believed himself to be durkon, but unless there is some plot twist in store for later, we should just drop this thread now. it served its purpose.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't have an issue with speculation, but McCrab really didn't seem like they were paying attention to what anyone else was saying.

[Ruck]

What I won?
Their souls didn't merge. Durkon's time in captivity + how he defeated the vampire has caused him to experience some of the vampire's thoughts and memories as his own, at least for now.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Their souls didn't merge. Durkon's time in captivity + how he defeated the vampire has caused him to experience some of the vampire's thoughts and memories as his own, at least for now.

their minds merged. killing the vampire seemed to do that. either that, or durkons gamble of over whelming the thing the way he did did that.

[Peelee]

their minds merged.

Much like a melon merging with a rock, I'd say.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Much like a melon merging with a rock, I'd say.

merged as in he has the vampires memories rather. I took the rock analogy as in belkar killing him, as the stake was the rock, and durkons heart being the melon.

[woweedd]

merged as in he has the vampires memories rather. I took the rock analogy as in belkar killing him, as the stake was the rock, and durkons heart being the melon.
That's so obviously not what was meant. Durkon is the rock, HPOH is the melon. Durkon destroyed him, but absorbed his memories in the process.

[Peelee]

merged as in he has the vampires memories rather. I took the rock analogy as in belkar killing him, as the stake was the rock, and durkons heart being the melon.

So you thought that while talking about memories, Thor said "Belkar's stake needs cleaning?"

[WolvesbaneIII]

So you thought that while talking about memories, Thor said "Belkar's stake needs cleaning?"

Perhaps I misremembered the quote, but yeah, for a bit thats what I thought, but not quite.

basically, I thought the process of killing a vampire made the host remember the vampires thoughts too. Thor using an analogy of the rock smashing a melon made me think that belkar smashing the vampire made dukon absorb the memories, because he was in the effected area.

Stones don't really absorb things though. unless it was some special kind of stone that does just that. The analogy in that regard seems flawed.

[Peelee]

Perhaps I misremembered the quote, but yeah, for a bit thats what I thought, but not quite.

basically, I thought the process of killing a vampire made the host remember the vampires thoughts too. Thor using an analogy of the rock smashing a melon made me think that belkar smashing the vampire made dukon absorb the memories, because he was in the effected area.

Stones don't really absorb things though. unless it was some special kind of stone that does just that. The analogy in that regard seems flawed.

Ok, I getcha. Dont think about the rock literally absorbing the melon. If you smash the melon, the rock has melon bits on it. If you grab it, you'll feel both rock and melon, but it's still very much "rock with melon on it" than "half rock, half melon."

[Darth Paul]

In that case, don't think of it as "absorbed", but having taken an overlay of memories. A layer which eventually will wash away with time.

[KorvinStarmast]

... I thought the process of killing a vampire made the host remember the vampires thoughts too. Thor using an analogy of the rock smashing a melon made me think that belkar smashing the vampire made dukon absorb the memories, because he was in the effected area.

Stones don't really absorb things though. unless it was some special kind of stone that does just that. The analogy in that regard seems flawed. The fact that Thor clearly knows who Durkon is, and calls him by name, renders this entire thread moot. I do not understand the efforts at willful (self)confusion.
How you folded Belkar's attack into that metaphor tossed into a discussion between Durkon's spirit and Thor looks to me like more of the same. It's a lot more effort than remembering that Thor is a deity, and deities know who their clerics are. They've been in contact with them for their whole professional clerical lives, in one way or another. See also Thor's comment to Minrah a few strips back: "Minrah, you don't have to pray, I'm right here. Just talk to me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1135.html)."

I could take this one step further, and suggest that most deities have True Sight, or a similar (Su) ability, but I don't have all of the 3.5 deity splat books so I'll not assert what I think is true since I can't go and look it up. (Can you see how True Sight being a deity ability renders this thread moot as well?)

(In a general sense, I doubt very many deities cannot grant the spell True Sight to a cleric ...)

A deity can use any domain spell it can grant as a spell-like ability at will. The deity’s effective caster level for such abilities is 10 + the deity’s divine rank. The saving throw DC for such abilities is 10 + the spell level + the deity’s Charisma bonus (if any) + the deity’s divine rank. Hmm, not sure if Thor includes the Knowledge domain, but True Seeing is a 5th level Cleric spell ....

[hamishspence]

I could take this one step further, and suggest that most deities have True Sight, or a similar (Su) ability, but I don't have all of the 3.5 deity splat books so I'll not assert what I think is true since I can't go and look it up. (Can you see how True Sight being a deity ability renders this thread moot as well?)

I couldn't find any references to deity senses having True Seeing as built-in. They have access to a Salient Divine Ability (Clearsight) that is True Seeing only better (in some ways, worse in others) - but not all deities will take that one:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#clearsight

True Seeing is a regular cleric and druid spell (and a domain spell for clerics with the Knowledge domain)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm

This means that any cleric or druid high enough in level, has the option to prepare it.

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Ok, I getcha. Dont think about the rock literally absorbing the melon. If you smash the melon, the rock has melon bits on it. If you grab it, you'll feel both rock and melon, but it's still very much "rock with melon on it" than "half rock, half melon."

on that note, wouldn't most post death vampires keep their memories? durkons vampirism was a special case, and was either never done before, or was so rare it likely was a 1 in a million thing if not more rare.

How would thor know about that? he doesn't just know because he's a god. The dark one is a god and doesn't have all knowing abilities. Perhaps thor does know, due to another case like this happening, but I'm inclined to think that he shouldn't know, and just made an assumption that could be correct.

Thor is likely accurate in his assumption, I don't doubt the validity of the statement. But what durkon did was not a normal vampire experience, and as such should be something not a thing known for post vampire death repercussions. Also, thor isn't all knowing as he didn't know minrah was already told about the snarl. so gaps in his knowledge are evident. Though, to be fair, he might have had a brain fart, and I'm willing to over look such a small detail.

[Peelee]

on that note, wouldn't most post death vampires keep their memories? durkons vampirism was a special case, and was either never done before, or was so rare it likely was a 1 in a million thing if not more rare.


Do you mean post-destruction? And post-destruction vampires or hosts? The vampires have no afterlife, the hosts do. Also, I assume you mean Durkon's overcoming the vampire was a special case, and not his vampirization in general?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Do you mean post-destruction? And post-destruction vampires or hosts? The vampires have no afterlife, the hosts do. Also, I assume you mean Durkon's overcoming the vampire was a special case, and not his vampirization in general?

yes on both.

durkon overcoming his vampire spirit was a rare seemingly special thing that I assume never happened before.

This could be due to the giant basing the world on D&D, and not being restricted to it. Vampires don't work like that in actual D&D.

[hamishspence]

This could be due to the giant basing the world on D&D, and not being restricted to it. Vampires don't work like that in actual D&D.

"The soul of the original being is trapped within the vampire's body, with a malevolent spirit in charge instead"

is how it works in 3.5 D&D, according to the splatbook Complete Divine.

[WolvesbaneIII]

"The soul of the original being is trapped within the vampire's body, with a malevolent spirit in charge instead"

is how it works in 3.5 D&D, according to the splatbook Complete Divine.

Nice. I saw a different descriptor for vampires ona D&D wiki page, and said a thing about a mal-aligned intelligence. So I see rich used the splatbook Complete Divine descriptor for vampires. Good to know.

But, then again, vampires STILL don't work like this in real D&D. you can't just over ride the evil spirit in real D&D. Durkons evil vampire soul should still be as evil as ever, and not turned to the side of good, so that he can be offed by belkar.

[hamishspence]

All beings are capable of changing alignment.

The "malevolent spirit", by absorbing all of Durkon's memories, good and bad, basically changed alignment to have the same one as the original Durkon.

[Ruck]

Nice. I saw a different descriptor for vampires ona D&D wiki page, and said a thing about a mal-aligned intelligence. So I see rich used the splatbook Complete Divine descriptor for vampires. Good to know.

But, then again, vampires STILL don't work like this in real D&D. you can't just over ride the evil spirit in real D&D. Durkons evil vampire soul should still be as evil as ever, and not turned to the side of good, so that he can be offed by belkar.

Yeah, the Giant posted on why Durkon's gambit worked in one of the threads posted shortly after it happened. It was a unique set of circumstances that wasn't limited to RAW; looking at it from a rules perspective, one of the counterbalancing weaknesses about Malack's Vampire-B-Quik spell is that it leaves the opportunity for something like this to happen.

[Darth Paul]

All beings are capable of changing alignment.

The "malevolent spirit", by absorbing all of Durkon's memories, good and bad, basically changed alignment to have the same one as the original Durkon.

My interpretation (subject to the comic clarifying it in future installments) is "No".

The spirit, by absorbing all of Durkon's memories, temporarily became a copy of Durkon, but with the malevolent spirit trapped inside, struggling to regain control. That spirit core was still evil- just as Greg was an evil being with a good core of Durkon. (Whew- no wonder Durkon is so mixed up with these memories. I'm confusing myself now. :smallconfused:)

The vampire's essential spirit, given time, would have done to the "Durkon memory spirit" exactly what Durkon did to the vampire and regained control (not in the same way obviously); except that Durkon's memories and personality, being Durkon, did what Durkon would do in that situation, namely, sacrifice himself for the greater good, destroying the vampire spirit before it had time to re-emerge.

In a way it was exactly what he did in the pyramid... only instead of sacrificing himself to Malack to save Belkar and his friends, he sacrificed himself to Belkar to save Belkar and his friends. It was a reprise of Durkon's vampirization in that sense, and all the more satisfying for how many levels this scene works on.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Yeah, the Giant posted on why Durkon's gambit worked in one of the threads posted shortly after it happened. It was a unique set of circumstances that wasn't limited to RAW; looking at it from a rules perspective, one of the counterbalancing weaknesses about Malack's Vampire-B-Quik spell is that it leaves the opportunity for something like this to happen.

Good to know.

The way I look at it, the giant is allowed to change what he sees fit, as long as it is explained.

Durkons vampire adventure is acceptable because it was created out of a unique set of circumstances, was explained properly and wasn't just a good vampire because "durkon".

If durkons vampire was just as good as before, that would break the rules too much without being able to be hand waved as "just a joke" or some other reason.

Context is important.

[Ruck]

Good to know.

The way I look at it, the giant is allowed to change what he sees fit, as long as it is explained.

Durkons vampire adventure is acceptable because it was created out of a unique set of circumstances, was explained properly and wasn't just a good vampire because "durkon".

If durkons vampire was just as good as before, that would break the rules too much without being able to be hand waved as "just a joke" or some other reason.

Context is important.

For the record, here's his actual post on the topic. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564995-Why-doesn-t-that-happen-to-all-vampires/page2&p=23256990#post23256990)

[Mad Humanist]

Yeah, the Giant posted on why Durkon's gambit worked in one of the threads posted shortly after it happened. It was a unique set of circumstances that wasn't limited to RAW; looking at it from a rules perspective, one of the counterbalancing weaknesses about Malack's Vampire-B-Quik spell is that it leaves the opportunity for something like this to happen.

Malack probably (correctly?) saw thralldom as the equivalent of 3 days rest in a coffin. So Nale taking out Malack may have been crucial to Durkon's victory.

[KorvinStarmast]

But, then again, vampires STILL don't work like this in real D&D. What do you mean by that? What is "real D&D" in your world?

In a way it was exactly what he did in the pyramid... only instead of sacrificing himself to Malack to save Belkar and his friends, he sacrificed himself to Belkar to save Belkar and his friends. It was a reprise of Durkon's vampirization in that sense, and all the more satisfying for how many levels this scene works on. Nicely put..

Malack probably (correctly?) saw thralldom as the equivalent of 3 days rest in a coffin. So Nale taking out Malack may have been crucial to Durkon's victory. That's an interesting ripple effect of Nale's back stab.

[nabcif]

Malack probably (correctly?) saw thralldom as the equivalent of 3 days rest in a coffin. So Nale taking out Malack may have been crucial to Durkon's victory.

If memory serves, Malack explicitly said something like that: that he was keeping him a thrall for a while because in part because “things would be too confusing.”

Edit: Something like that:


You will feel more like yourself once I release you from my thrall—but I worry that doing so now would be…confusing for you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)

[WolvesbaneIII]

What do you mean by that? What is "real D&D" in your world?
Nicely put..
That's an interesting ripple effect of Nale's back stab.

By that I mean vampires don't get over whelmed like that, and I'm willing to put my suspension of disbelief aside for the sake of the story, provided its explained reasonably well.

[Morty]

By that I mean vampires don't get over whelmed like that, and I'm willing to put my suspension of disbelief aside for the sake of the story, provided its explained reasonably well.

Says who? The inner thoughts, emotions and experiences of any living or unliving being aren't covered by the rules. Nothing says it can happen and nothing says it can't happen.

[Fyraltari]

All beings are capable of changing alignment.

The "malevolent spirit", by absorbing all of Durkon's memories, good and bad, basically changed alignment to have the same one as the original Durkon.My interpretation (subject to the comic clarifying it in future installments) is "No".

The spirit, by absorbing all of Durkon's memories, temporarily became a copy of Durkon, but with the malevolent spirit trapped inside, struggling to regain control. That spirit core was still evil- just as Greg was an evil being with a good core of Durkon. (Whew- no wonder Durkon is so mixed up with these memories. I'm confusing myself now. :smallconfused:)

The vampire's essential spirit, given time, would have done to the "Durkon memory spirit" exactly what Durkon did to the vampire and regained control (not in the same way obviously); except that Durkon's memories and personality, being Durkon, did what Durkon would do in that situation, namely, sacrifice himself for the greater good, destroying the vampire spirit before it had time to re-emerge.
I don't understand how this is supposed to work. Are yo saying that experiencing new memories created a new "Durkon" separate from both Durkon#1 and Durkon* the latter being trapped in a second layer of mind?

How would Durkon predict that? How would Durkon* escape Durkon#2? How is that better, narratively speaking, than Durkon realizing that the evil creature was in fact a part of him he refused to admit existed and defeated by shoving to it all that made him a good person; thus mirroring his own character development of dealing with his hidden resentment rather than shunting it into a dark place of his mind and pretending it never existed in the first place (remember, the first part of healing is admitting you have a problem, however small)?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Says who? The inner thoughts, emotions and experiences of any living or unliving being aren't covered by the rules. Nothing says it can happen and nothing says it can't happen.

Hmm. perhaps I wasn't clear. Vampires don't get overwhelmed to the point that the original soul recovers control. A vampire could perhaps change alignment over time through years of life experiences, but it wouldn't just become good because the host was good. it was a OOTS exclusive story element with a home brew spell that did it with durkons mental resolve on top of it, and it's implied the energy spirit would recover eventually and become evil again like he was.

[Kish]

There's nothing in the D&D rules that forbids it. It doesn't go against any part of the vampire description in the Monster Manual, or anything in Libris Mortis. All you can say, is that it wouldn't have happened in your campaign, and I don't understand at all the value you seem to place on saying that.

[Rrmcklin]

Somewhat related, but I always found it strange how people acted as if vampirization in the series made no sense if "a spirit takes over the host body" was at least one description of it from a D&D source. Well, on top of that also being a story written by a person who takes liberties whenever he sees fit, so not sure why this was supposed to be especially bad.

[WolvesbaneIII]

There's nothing in the D&D rules that forbids it. It doesn't go against any part of the vampire description in the Monster Manual, or anything in Libris Mortis. All you can say, is that it wouldn't have happened in your campaign, and I don't understand at all the value you seem to place on saying that.

Its an evil spirit that inhabits the body. the giant pretty much said its unique to his story. it only worked because of durkons unique situation.

"I'm not reading this whole thread for details on everyone's questions/arguments, but to try to give a broad answer to the thread title that doesn't spoil anything:

First, the main difference between Durkon's situation and other vampires is the speed at which everything happened. A standard vampire gets three days in the grave to absorb the lion's share of memories, and then takes months to slowly assimilate the rest. This vampire didn't get any of that, and so they were overwhelmed. A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed. It could easily be argued that this would be a "balancing factor" in Malack's swift-rise spell, if I was going to stat it up for actual D&D play (which I'm not). And that's an aspect that Hel and her newly-created minion wouldn't necessarily know about, because it was Nergal's spell.

Second, unlike the other vampires, he needed to access those memories right away because he needed to impersonate Durkon. The Exarch is not going to be in as much danger of something like this because nobody cares what spirit is in charge. He can (in theory) just put off even looking at all but the most basic of Gontor's memories until this whole thing is over, and then sip them slowly over years.

Third, I doubt everyone has a single memory that could surprise and shock the vampire spirit like that. Because it's not the speech about "worst days" that does the real work here; that's mostly just Durkon psyching himself up by telling the spirit that they're wrong. No, the workhorse is the memory itself and how it makes the spirit feel. And I just don't think most people have a single ten-minute memory that completely changes the context of their entire life, before and after.

And finally, this would be the sort of thing that would take a very strong will to pull off successfully. Even if you explained this entire procedure in advance, I doubt someone like Haley or Elan could make it work. They just don't have the mental strength. They could show the spirit the memories, but without the unshakable resolve to back it up, the spirit wouldn't be as affected by the emotional content. In purely game terms (which I usually don't like to discuss but this is good to use as an analogy), Durkon is a high-Wisdom, high-Will-save character who possesses an unimpeachable Lawful Good alignment. That makes him unique. He may, in fact, be literally the single strongest willpower character who has ever been vampirized, ever. It's not a thing that usually happens to Lawful Good clerics in their mid-teen levels; Malack would have been much lower level (and not LG) when it happened to him.

The best way I can put this, overall, is that a human needs about half a gallon of water a day, or about 93 gallons over the course of 6 months. But if I poured 93 gallons of water down your throat today, you would die. That is not a significant design flaw in the human body that needs to be addressed! It's just a circumstance that doesn't come up enough for us to spend all of our time worrying about whether or not we are in imminent danger of swallowing 93 gallons. And if someone offered you a drink, you wouldn't think about, "But what if they suddenly whip out a fire hose?" before accepting.

So, is it a thing that could have happened to other vampires? Sure, maybe, once or twice, just as I am sure people have died from drinking 93 gallons of water. Is it common enough for Hel to mention it in her five-minute orientation of the vampire spirit before stuffing it in Durkon's corpse, when she has an entire scheme to explain as well? No. At best, she would have said something like, "Keep an eye on the host spirit, don't let it get control," and the vampire would have said OK. And then still walked into Durkon's trap because it was incapable of connecting the dots on its own beforehand."

quoted from the giant. Most vampires by default don't get vamped in seconds, so its a home brew spell making a vampire in seconds, so a typical vampire would already be up to speed, and durkons vampire didn't get that grace period, again due to a special in story plot device.

and the part that is important here is "A vampire who absorbs the memories in the "proper" way will not be overwhelmed."

I mean, if you want to write a D&D campaign where the vampire is overwhelmed and has his host re assert itself, thats fine. vampires are unfortunately not like liches where they retain their original personality, so its not the original person, its more like demonic possesion, but is an undead instead.

Not that I mind the vampire getting over whelmed either. A lot of forum users didn't get it, or like it because it contradicted the books on vampires that they read.

For me, a rare set of circumstances should be able to defy normal game mechanics because of the special and different context behind it. especially if the story is not intended to be bogged down by "Game" mechanics. OOTS is based off of D&D, not restricted by it.

I read online some D&D mechanics behind vampires, and was surprised to find it was not just a simple race change like with liches, and it was a spirit or mal aligned intelligence controlling the body. the book I read said that the vampire does not just join your party again and can not be an ally, and is not controlled by the original player who created it. its an enemy and thats it. paraphrasing of course. perhaps I just misremembered, perhaps it was a wiki page I read that, but it makes sense I guess. A negative energy evil spirit would be evil by default and could in time become good. but to just go good on its own in a second with no outside intervention from a group specifically dedicated to that cause on its own seems unreasonable, considering its not the OG person with a new outlook. its a different person altogether created to be evil, who happens to have the memories of the original. of course its going to remain evil unless it is defeated or spends enough time with life changing experiences.

If it was a lich durkon became, he'd still do everything in his power to do good, because it is durkon, and if durkons vampire was given that 3 days to absorb the lions share of memories, he'd have been more resillient to that memory swerve durkon threw at him. and the negative energy was still present. it didn't go away, it could easily have reasserted itself as the dominant force, which is what durkon feared, so it was a quick fix, and if belkar didn't kill him when he did, that last chance gambit would have failed.

[martianmister]

Their souls didn't merge. Durkon's time in captivity + how he defeated the vampire has caused him to experience some of the vampire's thoughts and memories as his own, at least for now.

Not some, ALL of Vampire's thoughts and memories.

[Morty]

I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing for or against at this point. Yes, it was a special or maybe even unique situation. The comic and the author tell us that. So what's your point?

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing for or against at this point. Yes, it was a special or maybe even unique situation. The comic and the author tell us that. So what's your point?

well, you'd have to ask the people who think its normal for a vampire to be over whelmed by the thoughts and memories of the host.

I'm guessing the vampire has to roll a will save to not be over whelmed by that stuff in game, which would be a thing I overlooked while I was skimming things online to better under stand D&D. for me to miss such an obvious game mechanic is a failing on my part. vampires probably have to roll much like how other characters roll dice to save against mind control functions. I'm guessing vampires have to do much the same.

[Peelee]

well, you'd have to ask the people who think its normal for a vampire to be over whelmed by the thoughts and memories of the host.

Nobody ever said it was normal, so far as I remember. It was certainly extraordinary, but others don't have a problem with that. Same with not having a problem with Skywalker messing the Death Star shot without the targeting computer. Extraordinary. Not normal. And yet.

Is your issue that extraordinary things shouldn't happen?

[Morty]

well, you'd have to ask the people who think its normal for a vampire to be over whelmed by the thoughts and memories of the host.

I'm guessing the vampire has to roll a will save to not be over whelmed by that stuff in game, which would be a thing I overlooked while I was skimming things online to better under stand D&D. for me to miss such an obvious game mechanic is a failing on my part. vampires probably have to roll much like how other characters roll dice to save against mind control functions. I'm guessing vampires have to do much the same.

No one has ever said it's normal. And the reason you haven't found anything about it in the rules is because it's not part of any rules. It happened in a story, not a game of D&D.

[WolvesbaneIII]

No one has ever said it's normal. And the reason you haven't found anything about it in the rules is because it's not part of any rules. It happened in a story, not a game of D&D.

I agree. it is part of a story. not an actual game. Some guy was implying it isn't impossible to happen in game. I'm like "ok." I'm guessing there is a D&D mechanic that would allow for this to happen? A will save thing that happens at certain intervals? I'm not asserting that it happens in D&D games or that its normal. Nor should I assert that it can't. Its a cool thing that happened in comic.

In retrospect it doesn't happen outside of rule 0, so no, vampires don't just get over whelmed by memories.



Nobody ever said it was normal, so far as I remember. It was certainly extraordinary, but others don't have a problem with that. Same with not having a problem with Skywalker messing the Death Star shot without the targeting computer. Extraordinary. Not normal. And yet.

Is your issue that extraordinary things shouldn't happen?


Not at all my friend. I would say that even in conventional D&D games homebrew story elements should be taken into consideration. The giants story had lots of foreshadowing, and was able to suspend my disbelief.

and even if it isn't a thing that D&D really has happen for vampires and what not, This story is only based off of D&D, not restricted by it. I was inspired to look into this game by this comic. such a good story and lots of lols too.

[Peelee]

I agree. it is part of a story. not an actual game. Some guy was implying it isn't impossible to happen in game. I'm like "ok." I'm guessing there is a D&D mechanic that would allow for this to happen?

There is, technically. Rule zero, it's called. The DM is the ultimate arbiter.

[WolvesbaneIII]

There is, technically. Rule zero, it's called. The DM is the ultimate arbiter.

Good to know. So, I take it there is no in game mechanic for vampires being overtaken by the host then? A home brew rule or rule 0 then.

Well this thread has been quite informative. Who knew a thread that started out by me going "whoa. did anyone else have a weird feeling about durkon too?" would turn into much more than that?

[Peelee]

Good to know. So, I take it there is no in game mechanic for vampires being overtaken by the host then? A home brew rule or rule 0 then.

Well this thread has been quite informative. Who knew a thread that started out by me going "whoa. did anyone else have a weird feeling about durkon too?" would turn into much more than that?

Correct. So long as the DM OKs it and none of the players mind, it's all good. If a player does mind, they can do anything between silently resent it to make their case against to ultimately quit and find a new group. I'm lucky to have never l had to do any of those as a player, and listen to and work with player objections as a DM.

Also, if you can find a good group or get some friends up for it, I wholeheartedly recommend the game.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Correct. So long as the DM OKs it and none of the players mind, it's all good. If a player does mind, they can do anything between silently resent it to make their case against to ultimately quit and find a new group. I'm lucky to have never l had to do any of those as a player, and listen to and work with player objections as a DM.

Also, if you can find a good group or get some friends up for it, I wholeheartedly recommend the game.

Nice. I'm open to developments over riding certain mechanics, should it make sense to do so. A vampire like durkon being so good pre vamping making him almost as good would make for a good story, provided its fleshed out.

I'm actually a bit disapointed vampire durkon didn't have this kind of development, and his enjoyment of alcohol as a result, much like xykon and coffee.

[Darth Paul]

In RPGs (at least the kind my group tend to get into) it's also useful to remember Green's Law of Debate: "Anything's possible if you don't know what you're talking about." And if the DM will roll with it, then the rules as written are less important than having a good game.

That's why I like OotS, it reads like a great campaign where the DM isn't overly worried about the rules and will let the players bend them, and bend them in return, and nobody cares too much because everybody is having too much fun.

[WolvesbaneIII]

In RPGs (at least the kind my group tend to get into) it's also useful to remember Green's Law of Debate: "Anything's possible if you don't know what you're talking about." And if the DM will roll with it, then the rules as written are less important than having a good game.

That's why I like OotS, it reads like a great campaign where the DM isn't overly worried about the rules and will let the players bend them, and bend them in return, and nobody cares too much because everybody is having too much fun.

makes sense to me. Thor using sonic damage despite it breaking the "rules" was funny. And thor was called out for it. It was an interesting use of thunder and lightning.