Academy Game Levelling - Can it work?

[Boci]

I'm entertaining the idea of running a game where the players are in the process of learning skills that will be helpful for them in the adventuring world. To reflect this I am wonder if its viable to base levelling off classes taken at the academy, making it a little more freeform, rather than classes. Below is the proposed pre-Alpha system. Do you think it would be fun to play a character madeusing that?

How it works:
Choose your race as normal (no feat varient humans), then your background. In addition to what your background usually gives you, you may also take the following:

1. Proficiency with 1 saving throw (Dexterity, Constitution or Wisdom)

2. Proficiency with 1 saving throw (Strength, Intelligence or Charisma)

3. Proficiency with:
(a) shields or (b) light armour or (c) simple weapons or (d) one set of artisan tools

Note: If simple weapons isn't chosen, the character is proficienct with daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs and light crossbows (plus any racial proficiencies, if applicable). In any case, you hitdie will be d6.

Once that is done, you have 3 semesters at the academy. Each semester you may take one full course or two half courses. You must meet the requirements for the course when you take them (you can use the first half course to qualify for the second half course of the semester). In addition, you get 1 free bonus half course, to represent your extra carricula activites outside of classes. This one may be chosen at any one point, you must still meet the requirements.


Full courses:
Cantrips (Requires proficiency in arcane, religion, nature or perform) - You learn 3 cantrips. These cantrips can be from the bard list (requires proficiency in perform), cleric (requires proficiency in religion), druid (requires proficiency in nature), warlock (requires proficiency in arcane) or wizard (requires proficiency in arcane). They must all come from the same list.

Gruelling Hardiness - Your hitdie becomes d12. Recalculate your starting HP value.

Half courses:
Hardiness - Increase your hitdie by one step. Recalculate your starting HP value.

Weapon Training - You gain proficiency with simple and martial weapons.

Armour Training - You gain proficiency with light and medium armour and shields.

Skilled - Gain proficiency with 2 skills or tools .

Linguist - You learn 3 new languages, and can create written cyphers (see the Linguist feat).

Martial Art I - Your unarmed attacks deal 1d4 damage and gain proficiency with improvised weapons.

Athlete (requires proficiency in athletics or acrobatics) - You can stand up from prone using only 5ft of moving, climb at full speed and take a running jump with only a 5ft start.

Actor - You have advantage on Charisma (Deception and Perform) checks to impersonate someone and can mimic the speech of others (see Actor feat).



Full courses:
Magic (requires knowing at least one cantrip) - You gain the ability to cast 1st level spells, the same class as your Cantrip.
Natural Explorer (requires proficiency in nature) - You gain the Natural Explorer class feature of the UA Revised Ranger.
Expertise - You gain proficiency in 1 skill and 1 tool. Then, choose 2 skills or tools you are proficient with and double your proficiency bonus with them.

Half courses:
Ritual casting (requires knowledge arcane/religion/nature/perform) – You gain the Ritual Caster feat.

Fighting Style (requires hitdie of d8+) - You gain a Fighting Style.

Martial art II (requires Martial Arts I) – Your unarmed strikes fain the finesse quality. Whenever you use the Attack action with your unarmed attacks, you make make one extra attack as a bonus action.

Unarmoured Defence (requires hitdie of 8+) - When not wearing armour, you may add your wisdom or constitution modifier to your AC in addition to your dexterity modifier.

Healer (requires proficiency in medicine) – You gain the Healer feat.

Inspiration (requires proficiency in perform or Actor) – You gain the Inspiration class feature of the Bard.

Hardiness - Increase your hitdie by one step. Recalculate your starting HP value.

Weapon Training - You gain proficiency with simple and martial weapons.

Armour Training - You gain proficiency with light and medium armour and shields.

Grappler (requires Martial Arts I) – You gain the Grappler feat.

Medium Armour Master (requires proficiency with medium armour) – You gain the Medium Armour Mastery feat.

Heavy Armour Optimization (requires proficiency with medium armour) – You gain proficiency with heavy armour and the Heavy Armour Optimization feat.

Wild Magic (requires arcane cantrips, arcane) – You may cast spells as a 1st level warlock or wizard, but whenever you attempt you must roll a d20, adding your intelligence or charisma modifier to the roll. The DC is 10 + the spell's level. If you pass, you cast the spell as normal. If you fail 5 or less, you still cast the spell, but also invoke a wild magic surge. If you fail by 6+, the spell fails (the slot is still used) and the wild magic surge still occurs.



Full courses:
Arcane Recover (requires ability to cast 1st level arcane spells) – You gain the Arcane Recovery class feature of the Wizard.

Pact Making (requires ability to cast 1st level arcane spells or ritual casting (arcane class)) – You may make a pact with an Old One, Fey Court or Arch Fiend. The fact lasts for 1 day to 1 month depending on the roll, then it must be renewed.

Divine Domain (requires ability to cast 1st level divine spells) – You gain the ability of a Cleric Domain.

Rage (requires hitdie of d10+) - You gain the Rage class feature of the Barbarian.

Magical Initiate – You gain the Magical Initiate feat.

Half courses:
Second Wind (requires hitdie of d10+) - You gain the Second Wind class feature of the Fighter.

Saving Throw – You gain proficiency with a saving throw of your choice.

Favoured Enemy – You gain the Favoured Enemy class feature of the UA Revised Ranger.

Warcaster (requires proficiency with all simple weapons or 2 martial weapons, hitdie 8+, ability to cast a cantrip) – You gain the Warcaster feat.

Dual Wielder (requires fighting style Two-Weapon Fighting) – You may draw or stow two weapons at a time instead of one, can use two-weapon fighting even when one (but not both) of the weapons lack the light property. You gain +1 to AC whenever you wield a melee weapon in each hand.

Sneak attack – You gain the Sneak Attack class feature of the Rogue.

Defensive Duelist (requires fighting style Dueling) – You gain the Defensive Duelist feat.

Elemental Adept (requires ability to cast a cantrip – You gain the Elemental Adept feat.

Mounted Combat (requires fighting style (any)) – You gain the Mounted Combat feat.


The game will then start at the end of the character's first year, so you don't to worry about being unprepared only halfway through.

So what do you think? Could it work? Does it need any major changes? Are any abilities too strong, too weak?

[Kadesh]

Honestly, 5e's beauty is its ease of access and play. Find a different game to play built around this rather than 5e.

[Shadurak]

Find a different game to play built around this rather than 5e.
I'll second that. While the concept of mixing in different class features sounds cool, d&d in general is structured around the leveling mechanic. The higher you go, more abilities become available, you can withstand and deal more damage, so you can take on stronger foes and harder challenges and get better rewards, etc.
How does a character made with this method level up? Does he pick a class and get its advanced abilities, like higher level spells? If that's the case, how is his original "class" determined? Does the player decide or does the DM? What about multiclassing down the road? Does the character get all of the features of the new class?
Honestly, you're better off trying out Shadowrun or VtM, where the characters are created and developed the way you're describing and the system is built around that.

[Boci]

I'll second that. While the concept of mixing in different class features sounds cool, d&d in general is structured around the leveling mechanic. The higher you go, more abilities become available, you can withstand and deal more damage, so you can take on stronger foes and harder challenges and get better rewards, etc.
How does a character made with this method level up? Does he pick a class and get its advanced abilities, like higher level spells? If that's the case, how is his original "class" determined? Does the player decide or does the DM? What about multiclassing down the road? Does the character get all of the features of the new class?

There are no classes under this system. At the start of the 2nd year, the player's become level 2 and gain the increased hitdie, then they select new things to learn from the second year course options. Once they graduate it still works largely the same, only now they teach themselves rather than being in school.


Honestly, you're better off trying out Shadowrun or VtM, where the characters are created and developed the way you're describing and the system is built around that.

Those are two very different games to D&D in terms of tone and power level. Also setting. Vampire is easy enough to port into fantasy, I made an oblivion mod for the game, but Shadowrun has technology pretty firmly woven into the mechanics.

[EdenIndustries]

I think this could be a lot of fun, but I'm also a bit confused at how players' level up. Is the intent that you generate like a "course curriculum" for each "year" corresponding to a player level, and have players choose new things at each level up? If so, it could be fun but that seems like it'd be a ton of work on your end as options start expanding and such. Am I understanding the intent correctly?

[Boci]

I think this could be a lot of fun, but I'm also a bit confused at how players' level up. Is the intent that you generate like a "course curriculum" for each "year" corresponding to a player level, and have players choose new things at each level up? If so, it could be fun but that seems like it'd be a ton of work on your end as options start expanding and such. Am I understanding the intent correctly?

Yes, that is the intention yes, a new year, a new curriculum. Its a bit of work yes, but I don't think it will be too hard. I managed to do the first year in about 4 or 5 hours, and the second year should be easier I think.

[Shadurak]

Oh, I completely agree about those systems being vastly different. I just don't know any high fantasy rpgs that take the same approach to character advancement. Warhammer Fantasy maybe?
Anyway, let me try to be more constructive here. Several questions/concerns come to mind.
1. The third proficiency everyone gets is largely superceded by half-courses(notably, shields and light armor are both included in Armor Training, which also includes medium armor). The way I see it, every spellcaster will receive a significant boost, while every martial will only go for the tools to avoid overlap.
2. Characters in this system will be slightly more powerful than standard d&d 5e characters, at least at 1st level. That's because they get to choose their save proficiencies and receive the benefits of several feats(Warcaster and HAM being the most powerful). Encounters need to be balanced accordingly.
3. How do you handle starting equipment? Do those who pass Armor Training get a scale mail for example? What about the arcane/divine focus for spellcasting?
4. How do you balance races that start with a cantrip, like the High Elf? Since they fulfill the requirement for spellcasting right off the bat, they can potentially be much tougher than regular spellcasters.
5. What about spell slots? I'm guessing you'll be using the table in the Multiclassing section. If so, what about half-casters, like Paladin and Ranger? I guess you could include a full semester spellcasting courses in year 2 and 3 that give this slower progression. Even so, how would you handle the bigger number of slots that a higher level provides?

[Boci]

Oh, I completely agree about those systems being vastly different. I just don't know any high fantasy rpgs that take the same approach to character advancement. Warhammer Fantasy maybe?
Anyway, let me try to be more constructive here. Several questions/concerns come to mind.
1. The third proficiency everyone gets is largely superceded by half-courses(notably, shields and light armor are both included in Armor Training, which also includes medium armor). The way I see it, every spellcaster will receive a significant boost, while every martial will only go for the tools to avoid overlap.

That's the intention. They're showing up to school, most of them won't have been taught too much martial combat. Castings will be able to get proficiency with shields or light armour (probably shields, since spells can replace armour), but is that really that significant a boost? I guess +2 AC is nice, I might drop that option, just simple weapons or light armour (or the artisan tool).


2. Characters in this system will be slightly more powerful than standard d&d 5e characters, at least at 1st level. That's because they get to choose their save proficiencies and receive the benefits of several feats(Warcaster and HAM being the most powerful). Encounters need to be balanced accordingly.

Worth bearing in mind certainly.


3. How do you handle starting equipment? Do those who pass Armor Training get a scale mail for example? What about the arcane/divine focus for spellcasting?

The academy will provide gear equivilant to what 1st level characters get by default.


4. How do you balance races that start with a cantrip, like the High Elf? Since they fulfill the requirement for spellcasting right off the bat, they can potentially be much tougher than regular spellcasters.

That's the intention yes. High elves are meant to make good wizards.


5. What about spell slots? I'm guessing you'll be using the table in the Multiclassing section. If so, what about half-casters, like Paladin and Ranger? I guess you could include a full semester spellcasting courses in year 2 and 3 that give this slower progression. Even so, how would you handle the bigger number of slots that a higher level provides?

Except for warlock, yes the equivilant to multiclassing. It will grow automatically when they level, though 2nd level spells will need to be learned seperatly.

[Darkmatter]

I like the concept. I'm a sucker for both flexible character creation and needlessly complex order-of-operations problems. However, the execution needs a substantial amount of work. It is really hard to balance such systems properly. On initial examination, a few flaws to look at:

1) Few characters will have any skills except what is provided by background and race due to the opportunity cost of acquiring them at the expense of combat ability. A benefit of the class system that each class includes abilities to keep players engaged regardless of challenge, be it exploration, social, or combat. Your system should have a mechanism by which to address this.

2) Some character concepts cannot be made due to limitations of the system. This is likely to annoy some players, particularly since this should be a MORE flexible way to create characters. Any race without skills available in particular has a pretty raw deal.

Example: replicate a human bard (magic user with skills and minor combat ability). We have to pick up perform from background, which limits our choices there a lot, and we pick light armor for our free proficiency. First and second semester have to be cantrips and magic. Inspiration is pretty important to the Bard, so that's our elective. We're missing improved hit dice, 3x skills, instrument proficiency, and weapon training, all things which make the bard feel like a jack of all trades / master of none. We can't actually get any of those in our 3rd semester. The concept of the bard just isn't really supported.

3) It is possible to make some really underpowered characters using this system (or any similarly flexible system). This makes the potential power discrepancy between party members large, which could make designing engaging challenges difficult.

Example: player wants to be an Indiana Jones type - adventuring professor. They pick human, artisan tool proficiency and ref/int saves. First semester: linguist and skilled, with athlete as an extra curricular. Second semester: expertise. Third semester: not much they even qualify for here, so they pick sneak attack and favored enemy (beasts) since he hates snakes. In many combats this character is going to drop like a rock due to having no armor and d6 hit dice without any magical defenses. The class system has built in protections which mean that no one aspect of the character (like defense here) can be so utterly neglected.

4) While some concepts are not well supported, others are pretty much objectively broken.

Example: Elf Gish. High elven race. Pick (say) booming blade as your cantrip. Semester 1) hardiness, armor training. Semester 2) magic (wizard, prereq from elven magic), "extra curricular" heavy armor optimization. Semester 3 Warcaster (prereq from elven racial features), saving throw. So, take a wizard, lose a couple cantrips, ritual caster, and arcane recovery, gain the equivalent of 6 feats plus improved hit dice. Even non-gish wizards would think carefully about that choice. It certainly makes human variant look underpowered, and that's been banned...

Some suggestions:

1) Most important. Make sure everyone playing thinks this is a cool idea. This is the sort of finicky thing that some people love and others hate - you can see some dissenting views above. If some people don't optimize well, the large power discrepancy between characters is likely to make it not fun for the non-optimizers.
2) Give every character one free skill proficiency at the onset, not determined by background. This will give some out of combat utility and allow for more balanced meeting of prerequisites.
3) Go through every class in the PHB and change your system until you can at least approximate the starting abilities of any given class. This will at least make sure that every character concept in the PHB is supported. Not nearly enough time was spent on the system as it exists to make it usable.
4) The opportunity cost of many of your full feat choices is way too low. Magic Initiate may be correctly balanced. HAM and Warcaster are not at all. You cut variant human from consideration for this scheme, but then you went and made many other races capable of the same tricks, multiple times over.
5) Check on your own biases. I could be off base here, but this reads as though you are fond of Elven warrior/spellcasters. The process seems almost deliberately optimized to be able to produce very powerful Elven gish characters. This kind of largely unconscious bias isn't uncommon in new game designers, and it's good to have the self-awareness to correct for it while you're making a system like this.

[Boci]

1) Few characters will have any skills except what is provided by background and race due to the opportunity cost of acquiring them at the expense of combat ability. A benefit of the class system that each class includes abilities to keep players engaged regardless of challenge, be it exploration, social, or combat. Your system should have a mechanism by which to address this.

Shouldn it? This seems to be one of the things that should be possible in a learning system. Why shouldn't someone be able to ignore everything and focus entierly on weapon and armour use? Whose going to tell the not to?

The mechanics by which this is addressed will be that players will be informed this won't be a purely combat game, so they might want to pick up some other abilities, but I'm not going to force them to do that.


2) Some character concepts cannot be made due to limitations of the system. Example: replicate a human bard

Wouldn't you focus on combat and utility for the 1st and 2nd semester and then take Magical Initiate in the 3rd? Seems doable then. Or at least, more so than your attempt.


3) It is possible to make some really underpowered characters using this system (or any similarly flexible system).

As you say, that's a consequences of the system. Doubt there's much I can do to help that. I'll look over submitted character, make sure they're not too weak.


4) While some concepts are not well supported, others are pretty much objectively broken.

That is a bit exessive. I could limit the extra curricular thing to the first semester only, but I'm not sure I like that. I could also make HAM full course. And see below for my thoughts on the high elf race.


1) Most important. Make sure everyone playing thinks this is a cool idea. This is the sort of finicky thing that some people love and others hate - you can see some dissenting views above. If some people don't optimize well, the large power discrepancy between characters is likely to make it not fun for the non-optimizers.

Not an issuer. Its a forum game, people apply because they like the idea.


2) Give every character one free skill proficiency at the onset, not determined by background. This will give some out of combat utility and allow for more balanced meeting of prerequisites.

When you say "not determined by background", the background is already free, you just choose any 2 skills, you don't need to pick a background.


3) Go through every class in the PHB and change your system until you can at least approximate the starting abilities of any given class. This will at least make sure that every character concept in the PHB is supported. Not nearly enough time was spent on the system as it exists to make it usable.

This seems unneccissary. The whole point of this system is to make new combination, sackling it to the PHB classes defeats the purpose. They are good to use as benchmarks, but I feel insisting that all must be replicatable is missing the point. There's no paladin class for one, I couldn't think where to put lay on hands course wise.


4) The opportunity cost of many of your full feat choices is way too low. Magic Initiate may be correctly balanced. HAM and Warcaster are not at all. You cut variant human from consideration for this scheme, but then you went and made many other races capable of the same tricks, multiple times over.

Warcaster maybe, I'll remove the advantage on concentration saves. I think you might be overvaluing HAM, since it doesn't scale well. I could make it fullcourse though.


5) Check on your own biases. I could be off base here, but this reads as though you are fond of Elven warrior/spellcasters.

Not really. My first two characters for 5th ed were high elves, since then I haven't touched the race. I play half-elves and humans, and woodelves when I make a ranger.

Feat varients humans are banned because I don't want . For high elves, there's two options:

1. Aknowledge, in game and out, that high elves are the star pupils of the academy and make sure players are okay with this. They are basically nobles. They learn magic, fencing, archery and speak an extra language, exactly what you would expect a noble's child to be taught in a fantasy setting. It seems to fit that they would have an advantage at an academy.

2. Ban high elves along with feat varient humans. High elves are basically nobles. They learn magic, fencing, archery and speak an extra language, ect, ect. Nobles do not go to something as pedestrian as an academy.

I'll see which ones the players prefer, if any are interested.

[Darkmatter]

So, the suggestion to go through the PHB is also as an exercise to improve the balance of things. PHB is a reasonable playtested baseline for relative power to enable easier and better tuning of challenges by you, the DM. The balance investigation includes evaluating feats against each other with respect to character building resources expended. Right now you have some choices which should probably be reconsidered, some of which I pointed out already: 1/2 of magic initiate = 1/2 of linguist = 2/3 of skilled = healer = warcaster = medium armor master = heavy armor proficiency + HAM.

One suggestion which might make things more flexible and scaleable would be to change to a points based system. Assign each ability a certain number of points and prerequisites. You still have 3 semesters plus one extra curricular (or maybe go down to 2 semesters). Full semester you get (say) 10 points to spend and extra curricular is 5 points. You must meet all prerequisites during a given semester, and you cannot save points for the next semester. This allows better creation of generalists because it lets them pick up e.g. cantrips in their final semester rather than being forced to pick up magic initiate (which will never scale) instead. This also allows you to be more flexible in relative feat evaluation. For example, warcaster is a lot better than many other feats for casters. Rather than gutting its abilities and adding more rules deltas from the PHB, you can just value it a couple points higher.

Finally, if everyone in the group you wind up with is happy with this, it doesn't matter one bit what a bunch of forum denizens think. Balance is often over-emphasized in the forums because it provides a more objective measure from which to launch arguments. For myself, I would choose PHB character creation over the version you have now. There are two reasons for this. First, I prefer generalist characters, and the proscribed sequential nature of the character creation makes it difficult to make generalists (see the bard for example). Second, this represents the DM having more control over what characters can do as they progress than I like, since the DM gets to put only those abilities they like into future "semesters."

[Boci]

I'll go over things and maybe jig them a little. I might change the curriculum structure, but I think the current system can work, I'll see. Two points in particular stand out however:


This allows better creation of generalists because it lets them pick up e.g. cantrips in their final semester rather than being forced to pick up magic initiate (which will never scale) instead.

Why would you assume it never scales? You correctly inferred that high elves can skip cantrips, because they already know one, so I'm confused as to why you assumed Magic Initiate won't allow the PC to take future courses which require the ability to cast 1st level spells.

To be clear yes, 2nd level spells will require 1st level spells. Which someone with the Magic Initator feat can do.


This also allows you to be more flexible in relative feat evaluation. For example, warcaster is a lot better than many other feats for casters.

Only for races with martial weapon training. Otherwise you have to drop 1st level spells to meet the preqs.


Finally, if everyone in the group you wind up with is happy with this, it doesn't matter one bit what a bunch of forum denizens think.

Obviously yes, never hurts to bear that in mind, but there's also no harm in having someone else look over it. I missed that a high elf could get HAM and warcaster for example.

[Darkmatter]

My assumption regarding Magic Initiate being non-scaling is based on the fact that allowing it to do so means I no longer understand how spell progression will work in your system. Cantrips are a separate system from non-cantrip casting progression for every class, so it's easy to see how that can be split away. Non-cantrip casting was presented for first level as "you get spells like class X." A reasonable assumption would be that future years would have magical training ability with the prerequisite "Y level magic ability for class X" and the benefit "You now have Y+1 level magical ability for class X". This easily transferred progression doesn't work if Magic Initiate (or other methods of getting first level spells, like being a 3rd level Drow) makes you qualify. Without knowledge of future progression options I can't really comment as to how magical classes might work. So I guess change my comment about the non-scaling Magic Initiate ability to this: You need to make it clear how magic will progress in this system before the game starts.

With the scheme you wrote in the first post, any race can get warcaster along with full casting: use free proficiency for all simple weapons and elective for a 1 step HD increase. Perhaps you meant the warcaster prerequisite to read "all simple weapons AND two martial weapons" instead of "OR" as written. High Elf can just also fit in HAM.

I hope you enjoy using this in your game. I'd clearly do it a bit differently, but it's a workable enough system and you seem willing to change it on the fly as you run into problems. I expect this means in practice that at each level you'll be negotiating with your players for the abilities they want their characters. There are plenty of players who will prefer that style of character building.

[Boci]

My assumption regarding Magic Initiate being non-scaling is based on the fact that allowing it to do so means I no longer understand how spell progression will work in your system. Cantrips are a separate system from non-cantrip casting progression for every class, so it's easy to see how that can be split away. Non-cantrip casting was presented for first level as "you get spells like class X." A reasonable assumption would be that future years would have magical training ability with the prerequisite "Y level magic ability for class X" and the benefit "You now have Y+1 level magical ability for class X". This easily transferred progression doesn't work if Magic Initiate (or other methods of getting first level spells, like being a 3rd level Drow) makes you qualify. Without knowledge of future progression options I can't really comment as to how magical classes might work. So I guess change my comment about the non-scaling Magic Initiate ability to this: You need to make it clear how magic will progress in this system before the game starts.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. Casting 2nd level spells requires the ability to cast 1st level spells (of the same class). That's all. I'll be sure to spell that out, and should probably just go ahead and write up the second year for the game thread, so the players can know what to expect.


With the scheme you wrote in the first post, any race can get warcaster along with full casting: use free proficiency for all simple weapons and elective for a 1 step HD increase. Perhaps you meant the warcaster prerequisite to read "all simple weapons AND two martial weapons" instead of "OR" as written. High Elf can just also fit in HAM.

Oh yeah, my bad, I forgot it was or. No that was intended. I'll go ahead and remove the advantage on concentration saves for Warcaster. Its there to allow dual wielding gishes, not to buff all casters.