Core only single classed sorcerer is hard.

[Stygofthedump]

Yea yea I knew that spells were going to be limited, but wow some brutal choices are necessary.
At Dragonic lv 1 and have sleep and shield, firebolt, message, minor illusion, Prestidigitation. ok so far
At LV2 one more slot using sorc points and a new lv 1 spell -not sure what yet..

LV3 I intend to take subtle spell as we enforce casting rules and this meta is fantastic, also kinda fits into the noble social characters theme. Leaning toward twin as the other.
lv 2 spells come along I get a grand total of 4 spells known -hmm.
phantasmal Force too good to give up for concept. possibly swap sleep for chromatic orb if I have 50GP for diamond.
now what? will shield and base 15 AC be sufficient for defense at this stage? subtle detect thoughts sounds pretty great actually..

Misty Step
Mirror image
Suggestion
Invisibility
Detect thoughts
Enhance Ability

Any thoughts?

Party has Moon Druid, Bard going lore, Barbarian, rogue.

[Expected]

Party has Moon Druid, Bard going lore, Barbarian, rogue.

The subtle spell metamagic is a good choice. It only costs 1 sorcery point and has many benefits in both RP and combat. Because you have a rogue, twinned spell would be a good idea--you can twin haste or greater invisibility when you get it and buff two party members instead of just one. Definitely cast greater invisibility on the rogue because they can make good use of it for sneak attacks.

[ATHATH]

The subtle spell metamagic is a good choice. It only costs 1 sorcery point and has many benefits in both RP and combat. Because you have a rogue, twinned spell would be a good idea--you can twin haste or greater invisibility when you get it and buff two party members instead of just one. Definitely cast greater invisibility on the rogue because they can make good use of it for sneak attacks.
Or Haste- Rogues LOVE Haste, since they can sneak attack with their Haste action, then hold their action and attack an enemy on whoever's turn is next with a reaction (letting them get off two sneak attacks in one round (remember that ROUNDS and TURNS are distinct).

[Expected]

Or Haste- Rogues LOVE Haste, since they can sneak attack with their Haste action, then hold their action and attack an enemy on whoever's turn is next with a reaction (letting them get off two sneak attacks in one round (remember that ROUNDS and TURNS are distinct).

I did not know you could do that--that is much better than guaranteed advantage from greater invisibility. In that case, high-level Arcane Tricksters who can ensure they have haste cast on themselves have a distinct advantage over those who do not have haste and cannot cast it on themselves. Do you happen to know how much haste raises the Rogue's DPR by?

[Stygofthedump]

Or Haste- Rogues LOVE Haste, since they can sneak attack with their Haste action, then hold their action and attack an enemy on whoever's turn is next with a reaction (letting them get off two sneak attacks in one round (remember that ROUNDS and TURNS are distinct).

Wow, good call there!

[Rixitichil]

I'd make sure to chat with the Bard and make sure you're not stepping on each others toes.

As for spells, make sure whatever metamagic you get works with the ones you pick.

Consider swapping Sleep for a more relevant crowd control spell like Web maybe? But your list of spells all seem viable.

[RSP]

I find the best use of Twin is buffing others, while Quicken adds to personal damage/ability. So to me, it all depends how you want to play, with neither being right or wrong. Subtle is a great metamagic.

[Citan]

Yea yea I knew that spells were going to be limited, but wow some brutal choices are necessary.
At Dragonic lv 1 and have sleep and shield, firebolt, message, minor illusion, Prestidigitation. ok so far
At LV2 one more slot using sorc points and a new lv 1 spell -not sure what yet..

LV3 I intend to take subtle spell as we enforce casting rules and this meta is fantastic, also kinda fits into the noble social characters theme. Leaning toward twin as the other.
lv 2 spells come along I get a grand total of 4 spells known -hmm.
phantasmal Force too good to give up for concept. possibly swap sleep for chromatic orb if I have 50GP for diamond.
now what? will shield and base 15 AC be sufficient for defense at this stage? subtle detect thoughts sounds pretty great actually..

Misty Step
Mirror image
Suggestion
Invisibility
Detect thoughts
Enhance Ability

Any thoughts?

Party has Moon Druid, Bard going lore, Barbarian, rogue.
Hi!
Hmm...
You're in for tough choices indeed.

Usually with Subtle metamagics, I put Enhance Ability and Suggestion as priorities, for obvious reasons.
But, considering you're a Sorcerer with limited slots, and you have in your party 2 other guys being able to know Enhance Ability (one at-will), and one other being able to know Suggestion...

I'd say it's still worth if you really plan on buffing your mates "shadowingly in open" if I may say so.
Though, these are the two ones most synergizing with Subtle imo, with close third being Invisibility (when you need to escape/infiltrate in short notice).

I'd *probably* keep Suggestion in your place, but you should beforehand check with your DM to ensure he doesn't decide on weird quirk like "target saving knows you cast Suggestion on it although it were subtle".
Suggestion is probably the only spell on all your list that is *that* useful in and out of combat (suggesting people to flee, or focusing on the "wrong" guy for example).
Enhance Ability can too but more situationnally (caster using Phantasmal Force against one ally, yourself being restrained by an Entangle, things like that).

Maybe check with your friends to see where they tend to go, and pick yours afterwards?

[Corran]

Wow, good call there!
If you plan for twinning haste on the rogue and on the barbarian, make sure you pick mirror image (or even blink, I prefer mirror image though). You do not want to drop concentration on haste, especially when that affects two characters, as they get stunned (or sth like that, I am not sure right now and I AM afb) for a round. So you want to make sure you avoid being hit (hence mirror image, maybe even shield, maybe even mage armor if not draconic bloodline).

As for subtle, take a look at this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526062-New-updated-Sorcerer-Guide!) if you already have not. There are some nice uses of spells with this particular metamagic.

Edit:

With subtle and twin as metamagics, I would probably aim for sth like that at level 5.
1) Haste
2) Mirror image
3) Shield
4) Suggestion
5) Detect thoughts (have your lucky copper coin handy, cause if I remember correctly, subtle does not do away with material componenets)
6) Feather fall

Haste, Mirror image and shield are your combat spells, all of them working under the same strategy (ie hastiing the barbarian and the rogue), and suggestion and detect thoughts are you social spells (with suggestion being an alternative combat strategy to haste), pairing with subtle to fill the role of a social manipulator. You can probably swap out feather fall for something else (a fireball perhaps, fly, invisibility, whatever else, lots of good spells). I just included it because that's what I would do, as feather fall is a personal favorite. Absorb elements is now a sorcerer spell if I am not horribly mistaken, so that would be a great pick at some later point.

[Expected]

If you plan for twinning haste on the rogue and on the barbarian, make sure you pick mirror image (or even blink, I prefer mirror image though). You do not want to drop concentration on haste, especially when that affects two characters, as they get stunned (or sth like that, I am not sure right now and I AM afb) for a round. So you want to make sure you avoid being hit (hence mirror image, maybe even shield, maybe even mage armor if not draconic bloodline).

I concur--it would be disadvantageous for two allies to be stunned for a turn. If your class does not have Constitution saving throw proficiency, the feats Resilient: Con and/or Warcaster might be worth taking once your main ability score is 20 and, in some cases, even before.

Resilient: Con awards 1 point in Constitution and proficiency, which will help when making concentration saving throws. Warcaster allows you to cast spells without a free hand to fulfill the somatic component (you get to have a weapon AND a shield or two weapons) and gives advantage on the concentration check.

[Exocist]

I did not know you could do that--that is much better than guaranteed advantage from greater invisibility. In that case, high-level Arcane Tricksters who can ensure they have haste cast on themselves have a distinct advantage over those who do not have haste and cannot cast it on themselves. Do you happen to know how much haste raises the Rogue's DPR by?

I have a damage calculator for the AT.

https://i.imgur.com/sqaNnM4.png

That boost from 47.1 to 75.1 DPR (after accounting for hit % against the Average AC at that level. 2nd and 3rd column compare his damage to a GWM/PAM Barbarian 2/Brute 11/Hexblade 7) is what Haste does to the AT. This AT has Elven Accuracy and only one way of giving themselves advantage (Find Familiar) though, but the familiar should count as an "ally within 5ft" for the second Sneak Attack, and he has sentinel anyway which dissuades attacking the familiar.

Alternatively, you could take a level in Warlock (Raven Queen patron) if your DM allows UA, which means if they kill your familiar, you get advantage on all attacks against them for the next 24 hours.

[Expected]

That boost from 47.1 to 75.1 DPR (after accounting for hit % against the Average AC at that level. 2nd and 3rd column compare his damage to a GWM/PAM Barbarian 2/Brute 11/Hexblade 7) is what Haste does to the AT. This AT has Elven Accuracy and only one way of giving themselves advantage (Find Familiar) though, but the familiar should could as an "ally within 5ft" for the second Sneak Attack, and he has sentinel anyway which dissuades attacking the familiar.

I haven't yet played as a Rogue, but this sounds like it'd be fun to play because of how much damage it does. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I would be cautious about Hasting myself, as a melee character. Melee characters get hit, getting hit triggers Concentration checks, losing Haste causes the already noted problems.

[Ogre Mage]

Side note -- one way to expand your spells known is to start as a variant human and take Magic Initiate (sorcerer) at 1st level. Yes, you can take magic initiate in your own class. And since you are picking a 1st level spell (and cantrips) from your own list, you can use your regular spells slots to cast them.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Side note -- one way to expand your spells known is to start as a variant human and take Magic Initiate (sorcerer) at 1st level. Yes, you can take magic initiate in your own class. And since you are picking a 1st level spell (and cantrips) from your own list, you can use your regular spells slots to cast them.

I'm pretty sure that by RAW you can't use regular spell slots to cast the 1st-level spell. That's not a problem for the cantrips, of course.

[RSP]

I'm pretty sure that by RAW you can't use regular spell slots to cast the 1st-level spell. That's not a problem for the cantrips, of course.

If the class you choose for MI is a class you have levels in, it can.

[lperkins2]

If you plan for twinning haste on the rogue and on the barbarian, make sure you pick mirror image (or even blink, I prefer mirror image though). You do not want to drop concentration on haste, especially when that affects two characters, as they get stunned (or sth like that, I am not sure right now and I AM afb) for a round.


I concur--it would be disadvantageous for two allies to be stunned for a turn.

Not stunned (which causes auto-fail dex and str saves) just basically lose a turn. Specifically 'when the spell ends, the target can't move or take actions until the end of its next turn', which is very similar to the surprised condition rather than the stunned condition. Still bad though.

[Citan]

Not stunned (which causes auto-fail dex and str saves) just basically lose a turn. Specifically 'when the spell ends, the target can't move or take actions until the end of its next turn', which is very similar to the surprised condition rather than the stunned condition. Still bad though.
Wow, nice catch! Never paid attention to that.
It means an ex-Hasted target can at least use reaction to make an OA or use a defensive feature.

Also means, if DM follows RAW as strange as may be, that a caster could still cast Misty Step to put himself a bit out of harm's way.

Plenty of new possibilities here. ^^

[RSP]

Wow, nice catch! Never paid attention to that.
It means an ex-Hasted target can at least use reaction to make an OA or use a defensive feature.

Also means, if DM follows RAW as strange as may be, that a caster could still cast Misty Step to put himself a bit out of harm's way.

Plenty of new possibilities here. ^^

You can’t use Reactions the round after Haste ends: “When the spell ends, the target can't move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.” Reactions are special types of actions, but actions nonetheless.

[lperkins2]

Wow, nice catch! Never paid attention to that.
It means an ex-Hasted target can at least use reaction to make an OA or use a defensive feature.

Also means, if DM follows RAW as strange as may be, that a caster could still cast Misty Step to put himself a bit out of harm's way.

Plenty of new possibilities here. ^^

Unless otherwise specified, anything that denies you your action also denies you your bonus action. IIRC that's in the PHB, but I don't remember the exact reference. The most important difference from stunned is the not auto-failing saves.

[Stygofthedump]

Thanks for all the feedback. Guess I’ll theme character an illusion and suggestion using type caster. I’ll theme it where I can to involve fire and still take fireball at LV5. I’m Pretty sure I will overlap with bard but I guess that means together we can own social encounters. I’m sure I’ll still pull my weight in combat with the spells picked above. Still like buffs but will limit to one or 2. If I use haste I will also move away from fight and probably hide next round.

[MaxWilson]

Unless otherwise specified, anything that denies you your action also denies you your bonus action. IIRC that's in the PHB, but I don't remember the exact reference. The most important difference from stunned is the not auto-failing saves.

PHB 189, the end of the section on bonus actions.

The most important difference is probably that while stunned, you cannot take reactions (like casting Shield), but you can on the round when Haste deprives you of your action.

[Stygofthedump]

On another note: at LV 4 do I
Take 2 CHR to make it 20?
Take inspiring leader?
Take magic initiate for hex (subtle and combat)?

[Citan]

Unless otherwise specified, anything that denies you your action also denies you your bonus action. IIRC that's in the PHB, but I don't remember the exact reference. The most important difference from stunned is the not auto-failing saves.
I always ruled as such because it seemed the logical deduction to make, but I honestly never catched any sentence about it in PHB. If you get the reference sometime I'd appreciate getting it. Thanks . :)

PHB 189, the end of the section on bonus actions.

The most important difference is probably that while stunned, you cannot take reactions (like casting Shield), but you can on the round when Haste deprives you of your action.
Oh. Well, thanks Max. :)

[Kadesh]

On another note: at LV 4 do I
Take 2 CHR to make it 20?
Take inspiring leader?
Take magic initiate for hex (subtle and combat)?

What does your party need? Does it need you to be making Spells stick with Hold Person etc? Do you need to be doing damage via Hex (which is only 1/day)? And of so, is increased DC Hold Person going to be a more effective than a maybe say an additional 10d6 if you have a Rogue and Barbarian in the party?

Or does your party need more healing?

[Exocist]

On another note: at LV 4 do I
Take 2 CHR to make it 20?
Take inspiring leader?
Take magic initiate for hex (subtle and combat)?


Magic initiate is never worth it

Does your party need a controller? If so War Caster might be good to help you maintain concentration

Does your party need hp? If so inspiring leader?

Not really sure? I’d still go war caster, but +2 Cha won’t hurt

[Citan]

Magic initiate is never worth it

Does your party need a controller? If so War Caster might be good to help you maintain concentration

Does your party need hp? If so inspiring leader?

Not really sure? I’d still go war caster, but +2 Cha won’t hurt
Taken alone, this assertion in bold is extremely wrong. :)

I assume you meant "Magic Initiate targeting another class, for a Sorcerer, is usually less interesting than other feats?"
Because Magic Initiate is one of the top 5 feats for most classes actually. :)

And even on a Sorcerer, even for a Warlock, it *can* be interesting. I agree though it's a niche use case, as Eldricht Blast can be gotten through Spell Sniper, and few Warlock spells are interesting enough if limited to 1/long rest.
That's why when someone is a Sorcerer interested in Warlock spells I'd rather suggest a dip, as costly in progression as may be. :)

There are other spells that, if DM agrees on it, can get you both Warlock's Eldricht Blast + one good utility/offense cantrip AND another full-known Sorcerer spell, such as Comprehend Languages (great for spying/infiltration), Expeditious Retreat (uses up concentration, but low-cost way to get out of somewhere fast) or Charm Person (if you know how to manage the nasty drawback post-effect).
Not so bad. :=)

For OP though, I agree you have other feats with easier to identify benefits.
Warcaster as you suggest if OP feels having frail concentration.
Ritual Caster if party has no Wizard (it can just change life if DM works with player on this).
Inspiring Leader being overall a safe bet when you don't know what to take.

[Exocist]

Taken alone, this assertion in bold is extremely wrong. :)

I assume you meant "Magic Initiate targeting another class, for a Sorcerer, is usually less interesting than other feats?"
Because Magic Initiate is one of the top 5 feats for most classes actually. :)

And even on a Sorcerer, even for a Warlock, it *can* be interesting. I agree though it's a niche use case, as Eldricht Blast can be gotten through Spell Sniper, and few Warlock spells are interesting enough if limited to 1/long rest.
That's why when someone is a Sorcerer interested in Warlock spells I'd rather suggest a dip, as costly in progression as may be. :)

There are other spells that, if DM agrees on it, can get you both Warlock's Eldricht Blast + one good utility/offense cantrip AND another full-known Sorcerer spell, such as Comprehend Languages (great for spying/infiltration), Expeditious Retreat (uses up concentration, but low-cost way to get out of somewhere fast) or Charm Person (if you know how to manage the nasty drawback post-effect).
Not so bad. :=)

For OP though, I agree you have other feats with easier to identify benefits.
Warcaster as you suggest if OP feels having frail concentration.
Ritual Caster if party has no Wizard (it can just change life if DM works with player on this).
Inspiring Leader being overall a safe bet when you don't know what to take.

Sorry, I meant to say, for a caster Magic Initiate is never worth taking. It's usually better just to 1 drop another casting class. It's not like you lose much out of doing so.

I forgot about Ritual Caster, but you'd need 13 INT or WIS to nab it.

[strangebloke]

Sorry, I meant to say, for a caster Magic Initiate is never worth taking. It's usually better just to 1 drop another casting class. It's not like you lose much out of doing so.

I forgot about Ritual Caster, but you'd need 13 INT or WIS to nab it.

You probably need to qualify that more. It's still a great feat for 1/3 casters like ATs and EKs, since it gives you blade cantrips and possibly a really solid spell known.

Seriously, an AT with shield (or even mage armor) and Booming blade is a tank.

[Citan]

Sorry, I meant to say, for a caster Magic Initiate is never worth taking. It's usually better just to 1 drop another casting class. It's not like you lose much out of doing so.

I forgot about Ritual Caster, but you'd need 13 INT or WIS to nab it.


You probably need to qualify that more. It's still a great feat for 1/3 casters like ATs and EKs, since it gives you blade cantrips and possibly a really solid spell known.

Seriously, an AT with shield (or even mage armor) and Booming blade is a tank.
I'll also have to disagree on the assertion for casters "dip always better than Magic Initiate", although, obviously not in every case.

Where I'll disagree is whenever...
- Your priority is to play with high level spells in general (XP delay hurts in the long run). With a stronger point for Cleric and Druid (since you access a whole lot of new spells each step, not just 1-2 more).
- You have a high chance of getting up to levels 18-20 and are either a Cleric, a Bard, a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Warlock or a Wizard.
Ooops, that means all casters! XD
Seriously, either the last archetype or class features at those levels are amazing. :)

[SirGraystone]

For level 1 spell, you already have Shield for defense always good at any level, Sleep for control which you should replace by level 5 or 6 but it's very good at low level. At level 2 I would get Chromatic Orb, it has a good damage, can change it type of damage as needed, and since you are draconic get extra damage at level 6 if you are using your dragon element.

At level 3 Subtle is good usually for two reason, first so you can cast some spell without peoples knowing of course good before a peoples or in social encounter, and second since they don't know you are casting they can't counterspell you. Now for the spell to learn since you are limited in your choice you want a spell lots of different use, why a spell that can only read peoples thoughts when you can use suggestion to just have them tell you, and suggestion also have good synergy with subtle metamagic, great when you have a paladin in your group who doesn't approve on manipulating peoples mind.

Now for the 2nd metamagic twin can be good if you have spell working with it (like chromatic orb or suggestion) but quickly get expensive. Heightened work well with suggestion too. But remember that you can only use 1 metamagic by spell, so you can't both heighten and subtle a spell at the same time.

At level 4 If you have 15 AC (20 with shield) a few melee characters in the group then you should get attack too often by melee, so mirror image is not necessary, invisibility is good for scouting but that should be the rogue job anyway, I like misty steep good to get out of melee, get on top of a building or wall, you can replace it later by dimension door. Another possible choice if you need more damage is scorching ray if your dragon ancestor breath fire.

At level 5 Haste is a good buff spell with subtle or twin, if you face large number of monsters then Fireball is great not so much if you mostly see 1 or 2 large creature at the time, the average damage is 28, if they save 14 and if they have resistance only 7. So it's very good to wipe lots of goblins quickly but not that great to take down an hill giant. Counterspell is useful if noone else in the group have it. For my first choice Hypnotic Pattern can be very good to control a large number since the NPCs don't get save every round.

So personnal choice:

L2: Chromatic Orb
L3: Suggestion
L4: Misty Step or Scorching Rays
L5: Hypnotic Pattern or Haste
L6: Hypnotic Pattern or Haste

Or course like someone said check with the rest of caster to knows what they are using too.

[opaopajr]

Shield works best with spare spell slots.

Otherwise you are better off using distance, Dodge, & 1/2 or 3/4 cover (+2 to +5 to AC). Don't let Shield spell become a crutch, especially since you have a party that can cover you AND your Draconic lineage already gives you a decent always-on AC 13+DEX. Mirror Image is better when you can, and no Concentration needed. This is not really the class to benefit best from Shield-spam; there's better pro-active defense tools. :smallcool:

[strangebloke]

I'll also have to disagree on the assertion for casters "dip always better than Magic Initiate", although, obviously not in every case.

Where I'll disagree is whenever...
- Your priority is to play with high level spells in general (XP delay hurts in the long run). With a stronger point for Cleric and Druid (since you access a whole lot of new spells each step, not just 1-2 more).
- You have a high chance of getting up to levels 18-20 and are either a Cleric, a Bard, a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Warlock or a Wizard.
Ooops, that means all casters! XD
Seriously, either the last archetype or class features at those levels are amazing. :)

It also needs to be said that Sorcerers are among the least feat-hungry classes out there. Sorcerers don't need resilient:CON like every other caster. They don't really need warcaster like a hexblade or cleric.

If you've got a 14-16 in CON, a 14-16 in DEX, and a 20 in CHA, which is not hard to do by level 8, you might as well take Magic Initiate or Lucky or something similar.

[SirGraystone]

It also needs to be said that Sorcerers are among the least feat-hungry classes out there. Sorcerers don't need resilient:CON like every other caster. They don't really need warcaster like a hexblade or cleric.

If you've got a 14-16 in CON, a 14-16 in DEX, and a 20 in CHA, which is not hard to do by level 8, you might as well take Magic Initiate or Lucky or something similar.

Not necessary but since he's draconic elemental adept is nice.

[Stygofthedump]

[QUOTE=SirGraystone;23294878]
*snip*
Great advice Thanks! I like suggestion to read thoughts. I guess you can subtle it and just ask what they are thinking..

For peoples information. We don’t allow multi classing and stats are rolled 3d6, so it’s hardcore. I was lucky to get a 16 to put into chr.

[Exocist]

You probably need to qualify that more. It's still a great feat for 1/3 casters like ATs and EKs, since it gives you blade cantrips and possibly a really solid spell known.

Seriously, an AT with shield (or even mage armor) and Booming blade is a tank.

ATs can already take B.B. so all you’re getting out of Magic Initiate is the ability to take shield instead of find familiar as your 1st level anyspell.


Cantrips

You learn three cantrips: Mage Hand and two other cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list. At 10th level you learn another cantrip from the wizard spell list.

Only the spells, not the cantrips, are limited to 2 schools.


I'll also have to
disagree on the assertion for casters "dip always better than Magic Initiate", although, obviously not in every case.

Where I'll disagree is whenever...
- Your priority is to play with high level spells in general (XP delay hurts in the long run). With a stronger point for Cleric and Druid (since you access a whole lot of new spells each step, not just 1-2 more).
- You have a high chance of getting up to levels 18-20 and are either a Cleric, a Bard, a Druid, a Sorcerer, a Warlock or a Wizard.
Ooops, that means all casters! XD
Seriously, either the last archetype or class features at those levels are amazing. :)

Aside from the problem of many games not getting to a high enough level for those high level features to be relevant, a dip also gives you features that might or might not be good.

On top of that, using that higher level slot to upcast a lower level spell doesn’t really reduce your effectiveness that much.

Granted, it might suck when you could have been Druid 18-20, Wizard 18, maybe Warlock 14 one level earlier (Cleric, Sorcerer and Bard higher level features aren’t so great) but if you really wanted those 2 cantrips and 1/LR 1st level spell (for reasons I cannot fathom) you’d be better off dipping. For the simple reason that you get to cast that 1st level spell more than once per long rest, especially if it’s something you’re going to use a lot like Shield or Absorb Elements. Dead characters don’t make it to higher levels (without the party grumbling about the cost of raising them)

Without the dip there’s plenty of better feats to take for a Sorcerer - Alert, Lucky and War Caster all come to mind.

[Stygofthedump]

Yes but no multi class at our table. I think I’ll likely take stat bonus unless I actually lead the party.

[Exocist]

Yes but no multi class at our table. I think I’ll likely take stat bonus unless I actually lead the party.

Whoops, classic mistake there, not reading the thread.

If you intend to control, I would take War Caster and Alert.

If the party needs healing, take Inspiring Leader.

If you don't know what to take, Stat Up and Lucky are always good.

For a single-classed Sorcerer, I don't really see a reason for Magic Initiate. An extra spell known, while great for giving you extra versatility, can be done better by ritual caster. Add onto that the fact that you can only cast said spell 1/day and it becomes less than ideal. As for cantrips - there's not many you'd want that you don't already have.

[tieren]

For a single-classed Sorcerer, I don't really see a reason for Magic Initiate. An extra spell known, while great for giving you extra versatility, can be done better by ritual caster. Add onto that the fact that you can only cast said spell 1/day and it becomes less than ideal. As for cantrips - there's not many you'd want that you don't already have.

I think one of the biggest issues with single classed sorcerers is the limited number of spells known. If you take magic initiate (sorcerer) you learn a first level spell and you can cast it with the feat or any of your other spell slots. If you use the feat to replace some first level spell you were holding on to (Mage armor for instance) you can then swap that spell known for a higher level one with more usefulness.

There no other way to increase your spells known. It is not just a once a day spell (unless you foolishly take it from some other list).

[Citan]

Whoops, classic mistake there, not reading the thread.

If you intend to control, I would take War Caster and Alert.

If the party needs healing, take Inspiring Leader.

If you don't know what to take, Stat Up and Lucky are always good.

For a single-classed Sorcerer, I don't really see a reason for Magic Initiate. An extra spell known, while great for giving you extra versatility, can be done better by ritual caster. Add onto that the fact that you can only cast said spell 1/day and it becomes less than ideal. As for cantrips - there's not many you'd want that you don't already have.


I think one of the biggest issues with single classed sorcerers is the limited number of spells known. If you take magic initiate (sorcerer) you learn a first level spell and you can cast it with the feat or any of your other spell slots. If you use the feat to replace some first level spell you were holding on to (Mage armor for instance) you can then swap that spell known for a higher level one with more usefulness.

There no other way to increase your spells known. It is not just a once a day spell (unless you foolishly take it from some other list).
What you say is very true, but still I'd agree with Exocist here, on the premise though (as always) that DM would act nice and provide extra rituals.

Having a Phantom Steed means you have much less to worry about regarding own health or concentration, or using short-range spells.
Being able to use Leomund's Tiny Hut means it's easier to set up a safe camp at no cost.
Knowing Alarm, Detect Magic, Identify, Magic Mouth and Gentle Repose is bound to be useful, even if it's only a handful or two of times in your adventure.
Having Comprehend Languages as a ritual means you can easily pairs it with Disguise Self or any other "social/infiltration" spell you may know to quickly and greatly expand your contribution out of combat.

Unless there is already a Wizard in party that agrees to take up the role of ritual caster, it's definitely a bigger addition to the party, and also a nice way for Sorcerer player to break routine of casting the same few spells all day. It will lift off a big weight on everyone, including other casters that could technically learn such spells... At the price of not learning another one. :)