[3.5] Quarterstaff Monk Optimization?

[Luckmann]

Alright, so, I need some help. I'm usually the one to suggest cool things to do and advise on how to make concepts work in our group so far, and I love that part of 3.5, but I'm a bit stumped on this one, partially because I'm so unfamiliar with some of the mechanics, I'm sure, but still.

I have a prospective player in the group that really wants to be something monkey-like, and has described it in terms I can only understand as very "monkey-king"- or "Sun Wukong"-like, and he seem to have all but settled on a Vanara, from Oriental Adventures, and it's most likely going to be a **Monk**. Yes, I realize that this isn't a particularly good start, but between being allowed to take flaws, having a DM that can likely be persuaded to accept reasonable accomodations, and the group being mostly very low-op, I think it's going to be fine. I'm also going to try to persuade the DM to straight-up make the monk a Full-BAB class.

The "issue" is that I can't figure out a way that makes quarterstaff (or similar) monks shine in any way, and from just looking at things, I'm not even sure how they can be utilized in a good way that isn't strictly inferior to the monk simply dropping the quarterstuff and punching/kicking things until they die.

Just for reference, were in the 7-9 level range, and as long as something can be reasonably explained for a fluff point of view, everything official goes, including Dragon Magazine, but also keep in mind that some leeway needs to exist for characterization things and the player wanting things just for the sake of wanting them, so a super-tight step-by-step build isn't really what I'm looking for here (although it would still be welcome, just so I can study the ideas behind it and get an understanding myself).

Anyone done anything similar? :smallsmile: It can't be that weird or uncommon of a concept, given the archetypical eastern monk.

[ViperMagnum357]

Remember the Vanara had all their ability score adjustments removed in the 3.5 OA update, in Dragon Magazine #318.

Optimization-wise, forget about Flurry of Blows and look into Two/Multi weapon fighting. As a double weapon the Quarterstaff can be used in such a fashion, while still being a special Monk weapon, so there is that. Full BAB is most important if you are going Epic-if you are only going into the mid-teens for a campaign, then is should not be all that relevant. If you are going high level, then you only need to squeeze 4 full BAB class levels into a build where the other 16 are 3/4 BAB to get your final iterative: in any case, Monk is normally treated as a 1, 2, or 6 level class before a build checks out to something else after grabbing the bonus feats. There are plenty of Monk-ish classes out there with real value to a martial, so do not feel like Monk 20 is where you have to be to retain the flavor.

[lylsyly]

A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563107-Optimizing-Quarterstaff-fighting) I started last month. Not all the options listed are suitable for Monks, and I don't know what sources are good for you, but thanks to others there are some neat stuff for monks. And be sure to consider the idea of wand chambers as well. I don't know/kinda doubt everything usable is there but at list it's a start.

[RaiKirah]

You might also look into Stunning Fist usage if you're putting a bunch of levels in Monk (and/or have a high WIS, in which case look at Insightful Strike). If you do, feats of note are Pharoah's Fist from Sandstorm turns all Stunning Fist attempts into AoE, and Stunning Mastery from Secrets of Sarlona allows you to use Stunning fist (and all abilities with it as a prereq) with a Monk Weapon. I think there's also a way to use Stunning fist on iteratives, so in a TWF Quarterstaff build you can force quite a few saves.

[Elkad]

Monk really needs die size increases for Special Monk Weapons, not just unarmed strikes.

A weapon-using monk should be at least equivalent to an unarmed one.

Doesn't fix their other problems, but at least they'd be competitive in damage.

[RaiKirah]

Monk really needs die size increases for Special Monk Weapons, not just unarmed strikes.

A weapon-using monk should be at least equivalent to an unarmed one.

Doesn't fix their other problems, but at least they'd be competitive in damage.

A monk can use a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon and get the relevant strength and PA bonuses. If you take the Overwhelming Attack fighting style variant from Unearthed Arcana you get Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush as your bonus feats and you're halfway to a regular ubercharger. Get a means to full attack at the end (roof jumper, Lion Spirit totem barbarian) and you're doing just as much damage. Sure, you lose out on BAB, but you're no longer MAD, because you have decided you don't care about Wisdom or dex (Shock Trooper is going to tank your AC anyways). It would be nice to get the improved dice size, but that's really in the kit because it's hard to enhance unarmed strikes (at least in core), which isn't a problem with a weapon.

[daremetoidareyo]

Vanara have a climb speed, right?

Skill tricks in complete scoundrel around jumping and climbing are pretty good.

[RaiKirah]

Also, if you're not set on using Vanara, there are also Brood Monkeys (RHD though) and Monkey Hengeyokai for races that might work for the theme. The latter are particularly worth looking at imo, especially since the Dragon Magazine Oriental Adventures update (#318 I believe someone else mentioned earlier) make hengeyokai LA +0.

[Forrestfire]

I'm not sure if this fits their concept, but if the player is dead-set on straight monk, I might recommend the Dark Moon Disciple monk substitution levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a). They're normally a Faerun thing, but perhaps you could convince your DM to waive the organization requirement. What this gives at 7th level is Shadow Blend (the good version, that artificial light, darkvision, and the like don't negate), which is just a huge survivability buff for the monk, as well as making them much more able to reposition and 'skirmish' if that's the sort of concept they're going for.

Otherwise, the main hurdle is getting movement + flurry attacks in the same round. Travel Devotion should handle that.

Beyond that, most of the good staff-based stuff I've seen is castery, so my recommendation would be to two-hand the quarterstaff and flurry with it at 1.5 Str, while using Shadow Blend to keep relatively safe. Beyond Wild Monk, it's kinda all single-class monks have going for them.

[Zaq]

Remember the Vanara had all their ability score adjustments removed in the 3.5 OA update, in Dragon Magazine #318.

Optimization-wise, forget about Flurry of Blows and look into Two/Multi weapon fighting. As a double weapon the Quarterstaff can be used in such a fashion, while still being a special Monk weapon, so there is that. Full BAB is most important if you are going Epic-if you are only going into the mid-teens for a campaign, then is should not be all that relevant. If you are going high level, then you only need to squeeze 4 full BAB class levels into a build where the other 16 are 3/4 BAB to get your final iterative: in any case, Monk is normally treated as a 1, 2, or 6 level class before a build checks out to something else after grabbing the bonus feats. There are plenty of Monk-ish classes out there with real value to a martial, so do not feel like Monk 20 is where you have to be to retain the flavor.

I'm not sure I agree with forgetting about Flurry. Combat-wise, if you're sticking with the actual Monk class for some reason, you've got three elements that allegedly make you better at hitting things: unarmed strike progression, Flurry, and Stunning Fist. Unarmed strike progression doesn't work with a quarterstaff, and neither does Stunning Fist without blowing a feat on the privilege (at least, I think there's a feat for that, but to be honest it's been a while since I've looked—I know it doesn't work out of the box, at least). So if we're starting with the premise that we want to use the actual Monk class and we want to use a quarterstaff, only Flurry is going to really matter here. TWF is still an option, but if this isn't PF, it should stack with Flurry as long as we're wielding a staff the whole time.

I do agree that having fewer Monk levels is almost always better, but the premise is that we want the actual Monk class for some reason, so we may as well focus on, like, the only option we have for combining Monk features with staff fighting.

(Decisive Strike, from PHB2, also works, but it replaces Flurry and doesn't stack with TWF, so it may or may not be a good choice. My favorite thing to do with Decisive Strike, other than an AoO-heavy build, is to combine it with Improved Trip and Knock-Down, but I don't think that a quarterstaff usually works for tripping, right? I forget if there's a way around that.)

[OgresAreCute]

Unarmed strike progression doesn't work with a quarterstaff, and neither does Stunning Fist without blowing a feat on the privilege (at least, I think there's a feat for that, but to be honest it's been a while since I've looked—I know it doesn't work out of the box, at least). So if we're starting with the premise that we want to use the actual Monk class and we want to use a quarterstaff, only Flurry is going to really matter here. TWF is still an option, but if this isn't PF, it should stack with Flurry as long as we're wielding a staff the whole time.

You can use the Ki Focus magic weapon property to channel stunning strikes and such, it costs you a +1 equivalent though.

[RaiKirah]

(Decisive Strike, from PHB2, also works, but it replaces Flurry and doesn't stack with TWF, so it may or may not be a good choice. My favorite thing to do with Decisive Strike, other than an AoO-heavy build, is to combine it with Improved Trip and Knock-Down, but I don't think that a quarterstaff usually works for tripping, right? I forget if there's a way around that.)

If you blow EWP (Longstaff) to get into Exotic Weapon Master there's a Stunt (trip attack I believe) that lets you use the Longstaff to trip. Not exactly a quarterstaff, but basically the same thing

[GrayDeath]

If he is aiming for a Eastern LEgends inspired Supernatural anyways (Sun Wukong), why not use Swordsage?

They are rather monklike fluffwise already, and sooo much better it isnt even funny.....


Just saying, ask the GM/Player if this is an alternative....

[Maat Mons]

If your DM will allow Dragonlance books, there's always the emmide (Holy Orders of the Stars, page 31). It's an exotic version of the quarterstaff. If you don't have exotic weapon proficiency (emmide), you treat it as an ordinary quarterstaff. If you do have proficiency, it gains reach, but can still be used against adjacent enemies, and you can make trip attacks with it.

At one point, just for fun, I wrote up a build (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Staff_Tripper_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)) incorporating that weapon that I could have sworn I named "Trip Monk-ey." But I suppose a vanara build would have more right to that name anyway.

[Saintheart]

I'm not sure I agree with forgetting about Flurry. Combat-wise, if you're sticking with the actual Monk class for some reason, you've got three elements that allegedly make you better at hitting things: unarmed strike progression, Flurry, and Stunning Fist. Unarmed strike progression doesn't work with a quarterstaff, and neither does Stunning Fist without blowing a feat on the privilege (at least, I think there's a feat for that, but to be honest it's been a while since I've looked—I know it doesn't work out of the box, at least). So if we're starting with the premise that we want to use the actual Monk class and we want to use a quarterstaff, only Flurry is going to really matter here. TWF is still an option, but if this isn't PF, it should stack with Flurry as long as we're wielding a staff the whole time.

There is a weapon quality which sort-of emulates Stunning Fist, that being the Sudden Stunning weapon quality for just a +2,000 gp on weapon value (no pesky +1 effective). The drawback is that it keys off CHA, but at low levels depending on how hard you pump that stat it might be more than you get with the Monk's own Stunning Fist feature, since it's CHA/day.

Other options:

Sudden Willow Strike (PGtE): Stunning Fist feat can be used with a quarterstaff, though you've got a jerk of a DM if he doesn't rule that literally the same class feature can qualify for this.

Brutal Strike (PHB2) if you're going Power Attack - it works because quarterstaff is a bludgeoning weapon.

Wand chambers on a quarterstaff work, which would allow you two handy wands in the thing to activate as you need them.

There's the longstaff from Complete Adventurer - so long as you have EWP it allows you to be immune to flanking with total defence/fight defensively/take Combat Expertise by 2 or more.

The Scoprion Kama's unique quality is that it allows you to use your unarmed damage as the weapon's damage. Happily, there are rules in the MIC which specify that unique enhancements can be added onto other items for the same cost as normal, which means the Kama's quality can be added to both ends of a staff.

[Goaty14]

Wand chambers on a quarterstaff work, which would allow you two handy wands in the thing to activate as you need them.

Greater Mighty Wallop is a thing, and should help you greatly (if you can do the UMD thing)

[Saintheart]

Greater Mighty Wallop is a thing, and should help you greatly (if you can do the UMD thing)

Monkey Grip and Strongarm Bracers also, together with Sizing weapon enhancement.

You can also get around the need for UMD if you buy a 50-charge Rune of Greater Mighty Wallop from the right Runecaster (albeit they have to be of just the right build to finagle Wizard spells onto a Cleric list -- i.e. Cleric of Mystra with Spell domain and then cast Anyspell, or an Archivist entry to Runecaster which then scribed a spell from said Cleric of Mystra -- and then turn them into runes. Or a Cleric-entry Runecaster who you convince to drink a Domain Draught of Spell domain, which cuts the process down somewhat.)

[tricktroller]

So, I have a monk that I played in a friend's game that did something like this.

Decisive Strike ACF
Drow FIghter ACF
Zhentarim FIghter ACF

Never Outnumbered skill trick

Monk2/Fighter2/Monk2/Fighter 2/X 1
Human Power Attack
1st Pharoah's Fist
M1 Stunning Fist
M2 Combat Reflexes
3rd Pain Touch
F1 Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff)
F2 Forceful Staff Style
6th Imperious Command
F4 Imp Bull Rush
9th Snap Kick


This character has a ton of options for combat that can be used against different types of enemies.

So First round usually involves you running up to the combat and using imperiois command with Never Outcnumbered to try to demoralize as many opponents as possible. They will have a debuff for their saves and be cowered for one round and then shaken for another round. Second round, you hit them with a decisive strike, stunning fist using your quarterstaff two handed and power attacking. All adjacent opponents must save vs the stun as well and the Decisitve strike adds +2 to the DC of the save.

If they fail the save vs the stunning fist then thaey will be stunned for a round and then nauseated for a round with Pain Touch.

At 9th level you can use snap kick to get a second attack with decisive strike that deals double damage.

Using a large quarterstaff with strongarm bracers will allow both your UAS and Your quarterstaff to deal a d8 damage. If you get enlarged they increase to 2d6.

If you have a helpful caster in the party have them put spikes on your quarterstaff for some serious fun times. Also a quarterstaff of minor spellstoring would allow you to cast shillelagh on the staff increasing it to 2d6(If mediun) or 3d6(If staff is large) Then getting enlarged would increase that by a further d6 points of damage and give you reach for some truly scary battlefield control and crushing.

I had a ton of fun with my monk fighter.

[Mind's Eye]

You could dip a level into Druid for shillelagh, to get extra damage. Power attack could be good, but it only really works well if you take Frenzied Berzerker, which actively rewards you for power attacking. Quarterstaffs, if you take Two-Weapon Defense, will help with AC, even though Monk AC is typically OK, being harder to hit is always good.

[Malphegor]

alternatively for certain spells in a longer game ask your DM if you can seek out a runecaster (possibly amongst the dwarves. If nothing else there may be rumours of their arcane equivalent the runesmith, who can tattoo spells) to pay for the service of engraving your items with touch activated spells that you need. Then you can have shilleagh at a touch of your staff without a level dip, or bracers that cast blood wind on you while you have them enchanted with something like armour if you do not want to buy blood wind bracers specifically or are hard up for item slots

[Ramza00]

This is homebrew, but are you familiar with the Scorpion Kama from MIC or as a free preview from the wizards website.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070223a

It is a 6,302 gp item that counts as a +1 Kama (worth 2,302 gp on its own for a +1 Kama.) So for an additional +4000 GP, you can use your monk's unarmed damage in place of the Kama damage whenever it is beneficial. I think it is reasonable to give a similar effect to staffs for 4,000 gp. Especially since both a Kama and a Quarterstaff are 1d6 damage for medium creature with a Crit x2. (Though there is a difference in bludgeoning vs slashing and Kamas are trip weapons for the benefit of being an exotic weapon.)

-----

Combined that with emmide (Holy Orders of the Stars, page 31) which without the EWP feat if you use an emmide it is a normal quarterstaff, but if you have the feat you can treat the same item as a reached weapon with flexible reach (due to how you move the weapon with your body) and a wand of the spell Blood Wind (Wizard 1, Cleric 1, Spell Compedium) and you flavor wise have a staff fighter that can attack the person right next to you, or 10 feet away from you (reach), or 20 feet away from you (ally casts expansion), or 100 feet away from you with Blood Wind (you cast yourself via a wand or via your ally giving up the swift action to cast this spell.)

Blood Wind allows you to treat your unarmed strikes as a ranged weapons. It takes a swift action to cast this spell on yourself (or your ally can cast it on you) and you must spend a full round action to make a full attack but you can always use your entire full attack with unarmed strikes that you two weapon fight with. Now since flavor is mutable you can flavor your unarmed strikes as being attacks from your quarter staff instead even though "technically" this is unarmed strike damage and this matter if your quarterstaff has fancy weapon enhancements.

-----

Now I understand what I said above is homebrew to some degree but it is very small homebrew which I think is reasonable if your DM will consider making custom homebrew acceptable.