Picking a ranger subclass - Horizon Walker or Gloom stalker

[JDanton]

So I'm playing a lightfoot, halfling ranger in an upcoming campaign and I'm stuck picking a subclass for the character. I've decided I either want to be a gloom stalker or a horizon walker since these are the most thematically interesting and cool to me but I cannot pick between them. I understand the mechanics of both subclasses as well as the strengths and weaknesses of both but I can't determine which would be the most fun to play and which would be the best for RP purposes.

Has anyone played either of these subclasses? What was fun and cool about them? Is there much benefit to one or the other? or are they both pretty evenly matched?!

I'm hoping for some advice from players with firsthand experience and any advice for RPing either subclass would be appreciated.

[Mortis_Elrod]

What kind of character is your Halfling Ranger? a good question for any ranger is always "What do you hunt, and how do you do it?"

That should help you out a bit more as far as RPing.

Personally i like both but Gloomstalker edges out ahead. First round burst is awesome for any stealthy character. I think what i like most about it, however, is that its a way to set the ranger apart from the other classes as the guy who can turn anything into his own ambush. Ranger's to me are supposed to be the adaptable guy, and this is a great way mechanically to show that. the group of bandits that jumps out of the bushes to harass the party suddenly find themselves in over there heads in the first round. Gloomstalkers set the pace of battle, thats pretty cool, especially since its always on.

Thats not to say Horizon walkers are slouches either. A little bit flashier, but maybe a bit more consistent too. If your campaign has any planar travel in it it becomes better, or if you need some force damage its pretty handy. Etherealness could be useful for escape or infiltration, but i think that there are other ways to do that, though nothing as cool as pulling a danny phantom during combat. The level 11 ability is what draws my eyes over anything else here. Seems like a great way to be nightcrawler, teleporting all over the place and attacking. Probably not any more practical than using Zephyr Strike that turn but still...cool points all over this subclass.

[Nidgit]

Gloomstalker is definitely the more versatile of the two. I love the flavor and Level 11 ability of the Horizon Walker a lot more, but it's bonus action ability really pushes you towards sword and board, or maybe great weapons if you're feeling unusual. Gloomstalker can pretty easily work for any fighting style.

Another consideration is the length of your encounters, if you know your DM's preferences. Gloomstalker is heavily slanted towards a powerful first round while Horizon Walker brings more consistent damage over time.

[PeteNutButter]

I've seen the horizon walker in play and I can say it was... frustrating for the player. The dependence on the character's bonus action was always an issue. Between hunter's mark, healing spirit, and a variety of other things, needing a bonus action every round for that 1d8 damage made the player feel like the class was constantly fighting itself. The player ended up abandoning the character.

As for the RP, well the subclass has cool fluff, but there is nothing stopping you from RPing either subclass either way.

[AttilatheYeon]

Gloomstalker is the more interesting of the 2. Personally, i prefer Monster Hunter. There's something about a grizzled ranger trying to rid the world of another monster that appeals to me. Especially dwarven monster slayers.

[Crgaston]

I’ve been playing a Gloomstalker (PHB Ranger base) and love it. Started at L3 and we are L6 now after almost 9 months of almost weekly sessions. Barbarian, Cleric, Gunslinger, and the Sorcerer got abducted by the BBEG so his player runs a Mystic now.

Getting Wisdom to initiative is great. He’s often winning initiative, and consistently acts near the top of the order.

He hits crazy hard the first round. After getting Extra Attack and a level of Rogue and adding HM especially. That bonus shot alone does 2d8+2d6+Dex. And then you have 2 more shots. He’s had a couple opening rounds with crits that ended the encounter right there. 49+17+12 is the best one so far.

And the “invisible to infravision” shtick was amazing when it happened. Not every situation, but when it works... it’s Improved Invisibility at L3. We’ve been on the Elemental Plane of Fire for a while now though, so not much opportunity for it there.

The bonus archetype spells have come in very handy a couple of times.

I’m definitely looking forward to the Wis save proficiency at L7.

Oh and wait, you’re a halfling?

Free Infravision.

No brainer.

[CTurbo]

Gloom Stalker all the way. You really want that darkvision anyway.

[Fnissalot]

In my experience, Gloom Stalker is overvalued. It is great the first round of combat but after that is pretty ****ty (until level 11 when they get their flurry thing). Horizon walkers in my groups surpass the damage of a Gloom Stalker by round 3 in a combat and they are very mobile when needed.

In addition, Horizon walkers get Haste at 9 and Distant strike at 11 while Gloom stalker gets Stalkers flurry at 11. Haste should out value hunters mark and distant strike will likely outperform Stalkers flurry by a long shot. Distant strike also gives you multiple free disengages, you will never have to use your bow at point blank, and increases your movement speed indirectly by 20-40ft. It is sick!

Iron mind is straight up better than ethereal step.

Shadowy Dodge and Spectral Defense are equal enough that it doesn't really matter.

As previously mentioned, the horizon walker can easily overstack their options for their bonus action. With some good decision-making that should not be an issue, also it never hurts having more options. Planar warrior is in practice not much difference from choosing between the extra attack from dual wielding or feats like PAM/CE. Rangers overall have an issue with bonus actions. The bonus action from planar warrior promotes going with either sword and board or a two-handed ranged weapon. The main benefit of the bonus action is the damage type, not the damage. Force is rarely resisted.

[Aaramis]

Gloom Stalker combines VERY well with a couple levels of Rogue (Assassin or Scout especially) - an opening salvo if Assassin of auto-crits can instantly delete one enemy of your choice from the battle, which is very powerful.
So if you plan on splashing Rogue, then I'd probably favour Gloom. Or if you need darkvision. Or if you want to consider TWF since the bonus action economy isn't as bad as HW's. Or if you have a caster that regularly Hastes you so that you don't have to do it yourself.

Otherwise, yeah, HW can be fun, particularly at higher levels. Teleporting around, mechanically, is quite fun. You basically get Mobile for free.
Plus grapples? Yeah, no, denied...I teleport away. Enemy behind cover? That's cute, I teleport behind him.

So each can be fun, in their own way.

[JDanton]

Seems like most people are suggesting Gloom Stalker over Horizon Walker, so I guess that's decided. I've got to know, outside of that first round of combat will I still be able to do consistent damage, I know that Horizon Walker excels at consistency with haste and planar warrior, but can the Gloom Stalker at least keep up?! I know that rangers aren't supposed the be the best fighters but I'd like to still be useful outside of the first round of combat, I assume utilising umbra sight to stay hidden is key, fighting enemies where its dark or sniping from the shadows.

[CTurbo]

I don't see very much appeal in Horizon Walker other than Haste and Misty Step. Gloom Stalker has better features at 3, 7, and 11 IMO while Horizon Walker's level 15 feature is a tad better.

Much of Horizon Walker's feature set is entirely DM dependent. Planar Warrior is no better than just attacking with your off-hand. I'm not seeing where the Horizon Walker is going to out damage the Gloom Stalker. At level 11, the Gloom Stalker gets a free redo on a miss and that will really help with consistency.


I'd probably switch over to Rogue after Ranger 11 anyway.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Seems like most people are suggesting Gloom Stalker over Horizon Walker, so I guess that's decided. I've got to know, outside of that first round of combat will I still be able to do consistent damage, I know that Horizon Walker excels at consistency with haste and planar warrior, but can the Gloom Stalker at least keep up?! I know that rangers aren't supposed the be the best fighters but I'd like to still be useful outside of the first round of combat, I assume utilising umbra sight to stay hidden is key, fighting enemies where its dark or sniping from the shadows.

I mean.... you still have spells. that 1d8 of force damage the HW gets is pretty much a free spell slot.

Zephyr Strike has been my go to ranger spell, but i play a very mobile skirmisher. If you like to hop out of the shadows it could work and then slink back in with the extra movement speed.
Often times encounters will end quicker with GS than HW, so theres that. When in doubt you could always hunters mark for prolonged combat. sure thats an average 1 point difference but thats probably fine.

Also i think it depends on your fighting style. Gloomstalkers don't lose much from two weapon fighting, its a solid option if you dont want to use spells,(or theres a single target with hunters mark already on) but HWs need to decide on force damage or another hit.

[JDanton]

Planar warrior is great if you aren't dual wielding and distant strike gives you an extra attack and free disengage , combined with haste it looks like it could be pretty powerful, also teleporting is just fun. That being said the Gloom Stalker's 11th level ability does seem better for consistency, I just want a better idea of what to do after that first round of combat, is it just hiding and sniping, is there anything more I can do in longer fights?!

[Mortis_Elrod]

Planar warrior is great if you aren't dual wielding and distant strike gives you an extra attack and free disengage , combined with haste it looks like it could be pretty powerful, also teleporting is just fun. That being said the Gloom Stalker's 11th level ability does seem better for consistency, I just want a better idea of what to do after that first round of combat, is it just hiding and sniping, is there anything more I can do in longer fights?!

You can use spells.

[JDanton]

You can use spells.

I mean yeah but so can any ranger, the only spell Gloom Stalker's get that can be used in combat is fear and greater invisibility, I'm kind of new to playing rangers in general so I don't really know what my role in combat is, I'm used to nuking things as a spell caster or tanking with a paladin or barbarian.

[Crgaston]

Planar warrior is great if you aren't dual wielding and distant strike gives you an extra attack and free disengage , combined with haste it looks like it could be pretty powerful, also teleporting is just fun. That being said the Gloom Stalker's 11th level ability does seem better for consistency, I just want a better idea of what to do after that first round of combat, is it just hiding and sniping, is there anything more I can do in longer fights?!

You’re still a full fledged martial with a few spells. Once you get Spike Growth, that’s amazing battlefield control to delay enemy melee combatants. My guy typically stays ranged until someone gets in trouble and then goes into melee to help. (My dm has said that the main way he threatens my Ranger is by attacking other party members.)

Hunters Mark helps with the damage, as does the Sneak Attack now that he has the Rogue level. Also he took Expertise in athletics (+7) and stealth (+10), so even with a 12 Str he’s as good at grappling as if he had an 18 and just proficiency. And once Cunning Action kicks in he’ll be able to Disengage or Hide as a bonus action.

Also at L5 you can get Healing Spirit, which, despite the hate it gets on the board, isn’t too broken if used in combat. At least at our table. The DM is regularly throwing 2-3x deadly encounters at us. YMMV.

And at the risk of being obvious, taking out someone before they can attack your team IS contributing to the rest of the combat in a very real way.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I mean yeah but so can any ranger, the only spell Gloom Stalker's get that can be used in combat is fear and greater invisibility, I'm kind of new to playing rangers in general so I don't really know what my role in combat is, I'm used to nuking things as a spell caster or tanking with a paladin or barbarian.

Rangers can do a fair amount already. I like playing a skirmish type ranger, others do the snipe/hide, others walk in and stand still like some sort of off tank. You can sword/board, Bowman, dual wield, Greatweapon, (the style is not neaded, they are good weapons without it) double hand cossbow, single hand crossbow, or mix and mash and be pretty effective.

If you want to hide ever other turn do it. But its not your only option, and you effectiveness as a ranger is going to plumet if you try to stick to only 1 way to do things.

Case in point i have a lizardfolk hunter who was gonna dual wield only. But i kept getting rekt because of the need to be in melee. So next chance i got i lifted a shortbow off a corpse and use that till im in range. Works alot better even without the fighting style. Then was having trouble with landing more than a single hit, so i dropped my Orcish Double Axe (1d8/1d8 uses phb two weapon fighting rules) and picked up a greatsword and every attack i hit was making a difference(haven't missed yet since). I'll switch when i feel less effective to whatever i need because thats whats great about a ranger, I can do that. I also starting using spells only when they were needed, and moved alot more in combat rather than staying still. Feels like it helps.

[JDanton]

Lots of good advice and suggestions, thanks for all the input!

[Rp4man]

I think the Horizon Walker is being undervalued here. Sure it's not as versatile as gloom stalker but if you put some thought into it you can make it work pretty well mechanically. Especially as an Archer. Sure it comes on later than Gloom stalker. And the range is limited to 30 feet on planar warrior, but the class gives you all the mobility you need to get within that range in get out. Use the haste action to make an extra attack and then the bonus action for the planar. A pretty good opening if you think of fights going to go more than two rounds. Better if you can prep the spell. And later guardian of nature round one and then the subsequent use of planar warrior on the subsequent rounds. Do you want to make three attacks around each round with Sharpshooter and advantage? Yes please. And up level 11 you are untouchable and almost at no risk of losing this with all amount of teleporting you do. if you are range teleport in and out of the 30-foot range and never get caught.

Mechanically you just have to choose sword and board or Archer and think about spells that don't use consistent bonus sections every turn. Hunter's Mark Will Shine for you between levels 5 and 9 where you have an extra attack but not yet haste spell. But after that when you're not using Hunters the action economy pretty much starts to sort itself in my opinion.

On a side note etheral step isn't shabby. Especially with haste. Imagine casting haste. And I'm in subsequent turn using the dash action twice. 30x2 is 60 x 2 dash for 180 moveapeed and etheral step bonus action. Yeah you know that dungeon we are going to explore? I just scouted the next 3 rooms for us. Here's how we avoid the traps and get the drop on our enemies.

Realistically I would choose Gloom stalker if I want a dip. No Doubt darkvision and that first round of combat is very very potent. And it's a better multiclass option as I wouldn't take it to deep anyways. Horizon Walker if you're in it for the long run.

[rbstr]

Absolutely, Horizon Walker is undersold because comes into its own at a later level than Gloomstalker. Since "optimization" doesn't like Rangers past like level 5 or so Gloom brings this fancy first-round attack at level 3 and people drool.

IMO Horizon Walker is just more fun. Do force damage, cast a shortened level 7 spell at level 7 on a half caster, Haste!, really cool little teleports.
Gloom's features are good but just kinda more boring.

Horizon Walker, in my mind, also frees you up from the draw of Hunter's Mark and TWF some.

[Snowbluff]

Another subclass that is better than HW because wizards forgot to write the last 15 levels of the class is that one that gets 1d8 versus damaged enemies. Not as great as gloomstalker round one, but it adds up and doesn’t take your action.

[Rp4man]

Another subclass that is better than HW because wizards forgot to write the last 15 levels of the class is that one that gets 1d8 versus damaged enemies. Not as great as gloomstalker round one, but it adds up and doesn’t take your action.

yes I'd argue low levels that's still better since it doesn't use the bonus action (especially between levels five and 10 where magical items come in and the force conversion is less important)but again the HW gets another dice at 11 too.... More or less they're pretty even and I could see Arguments for each one being more powerful at different points of the character's life.

Edit I stand corrected it is a d8

[Crgaston]

It's a D6 not a d8. and yes I'd argue low levels that's probably still better since it doesn't use the bonus action (especially between levels five and 10 where magical items come in and the force conversion is less important)but again the HW gets another dice at 11 too.... More or less they're pretty even and I could see Arguments for each one being more powerful at different points of the character's life.

Snowbluff is referring to the Colossus Slayer feature of the Hunter archetype, which is indeed an extra d8 for every hit on a wounded enemy.

After reading through the new Ranger archetypes, I went back and gave Hunter another look. It isn’t bad, damage wise.

[CTurbo]

Snowbluff is referring to the Colossus Slayer feature of the Hunter archetype, which is indeed an extra d8 for every hit on a wounded enemy.

After reading through the new Ranger archetypes, I went back and gave Hunter another look. It isn’t bad, damage wise.



Colossus Slayer is not every hit on a wounded enemy, it's only once per turn.

I think the Hunter is actually really good. if I had to choose ONE I'd take Hunter over all of them. Gloom Stalker a close second.

[Fnissalot]

Colossus Slayer is not every hit on a wounded enemy, it's only once per turn.

I think the Hunter is actually really good. if I had to choose ONE I'd take Hunter over all of them. Gloom Stalker a close second.

Hunter isn't bad, it is just pretty boring in my opinion. The features lack flavor and ribbons enough to make it inspiring to me.

[Rp4man]

Hunter isn't bad, it is just pretty boring in my opinion. The features lack flavor and ribbons enough to make it inspiring to me.
By it's nature ranger is full of ribbons. 3 of it's levels the best thing you get is a language....

Ya I'm thinking if it went for the spells, Hunter would easily be the best of all of these mechanically

[Fnissalot]

By it's nature ranger is full of ribbons. 3 of it's levels the best thing you get is a language....

Ya I'm thinking if it went for the spells, Hunter would easily be the best of all of these mechanically

Fair point!

[rbstr]

Yeah, Hunter stands up very well against the Xanathar's rangers. You get options for single and multi-target damage depending on how you want to fight and very good defensive options.

Really, I don't find the added spells to count all that much to the power of the new archetypes. You've still got the same number of slots to use on them.

[JDanton]

Gosh now it seems people are backing the Horizon Walker, I'm conflicted because both subclasses seem so goddamn cool. From what I can gather, Gloom stalker is more powerful especially as a dip (I don't really intend to multiclass anyway) but Horizon Walker is also pretty powerful, it just requires you to play differently, limiting you to sword and board or archery and making hunters mark less essential. I feel like I get the gist of what the classes are about and how they play but which do people find the most fun, Gloom Stalker looks like it can be fun to play around with in the dark (cause invisibility is awesome) and ambush people but Horizon Walker gets a ton of teleportation which also sounds incredibly fun and thematically cool. At least it seems like both are viable, so no matter my choice I should be pretty useful.

What are peoples thoughts on the revised ranger and the conclaves that come with it? I've heard from some that the class is too powerful, at least at low levels and that the PHB ranger is more balanced and still on with the other classes. But I've also heard from some people that the PHB ranger is so unbalanced and underwhelming that its completely unviable and the revised ranger fixes everything about it. What do you guys think?!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Revised Ranger is way better than PHB ranger, as far as I remember.

The Favored Enemy feature of RR lets you pick Humanoids - all humanoids. You can't pick the higher-order adversaries, like celestials, fiends, giants, dragons or similar, but Favored Enemy: Humanoids would be essentially an autopick in most campaigns anyway, I think. It gives damage, too, which the PHB version doesn't. And the requirements for learning a bonus language are much looser. At 6, the damage bonus increases and you get advantage on spell saves. You only get two favored enemies, but it's much better than the PHB feature.

RR's Natural Explorer is always-on, gives advantage on Initiative, lets you ignore difficult terrain and gives you advantage on some attack rolls. It's insanely good.

That's basically the pattern. Whatever the PHB Ranger feature is, it's better than the RR version.

[MrStabby]

Seems like most people are suggesting Gloom Stalker over Horizon Walker, so I guess that's decided. I've got to know, outside of that first round of combat will I still be able to do consistent damage, I know that Horizon Walker excels at consistency with haste and planar warrior, but can the Gloom Stalker at least keep up?! I know that rangers aren't supposed the be the best fighters but I'd like to still be useful outside of the first round of combat, I assume utilising umbra sight to stay hidden is key, fighting enemies where its dark or sniping from the shadows.

A lot of it comes down to level. I played a horizon walker levels 8 to 10 and hated it. I was hanging on for the level 11 ability (distant strike) as the thing that sets the mechanics of the character apart - this was the fun thing I wanted and never got to use. My advice is to skip horizon walker unless you will be playing a significant amount of the game at levels 11+ (or are playing a game of hunt the portal). Monster slayer similarly suffers for having it's signature abilities be high levels.

Gloomstalker on the other hand is fun, because you actually get to play with those abilities that make you stand out before the game ends. Whilst at level 20 the abilities might not in aggregate be more fun than a horizon walker you will probably have more fun getting there.

One thing in the horizon walker's favour is the "domain" spells which I think are a bit cooler. If you tend to get a lot of long rests than horizon walker is a bit better (and if few, worse).

[rbstr]

What are peoples thoughts on the revised ranger and the conclaves that come with it? I've heard from some that the class is too powerful, at least at low levels and that the PHB ranger is more balanced and still on with the other classes. But I've also heard from some people that the PHB ranger is so unbalanced and underwhelming that its completely unviable and the revised ranger fixes everything about it. What do you guys think?!

Eh, PHB rangers work well enough, outside of the Beastmaster. They are somewhat underpowered but the Archetype features and spells are strong enough to keep them useful when the base class isn't doing too much for you in combat.

But Revised is clearly more powerful...in particular you actually get combat-related features at first level. Going through the differences:
The Natural Explorer stuff is a really good improvement and I don't really think it's broken. But it does stack with Gloomstalker in a way that's getting a bit too good, maybe.
Favored Enemy is, perhaps, too generous in some ways but it's also something can end up not useful at all. Like Humanoid is too broad of a thing. But it's +2 on damage rolls, upgrading to +4 at level 6. You only get one additional favored enemy type and the only other benefit you get advantage on saves forced by your greater favored enemy.
You do lose out on getting doubled proficiency bonus on wisdom skill checks regarding favored terrains. That was already sometimes a crapshoot feature but it's totally gone now.
Primeval Awareness is stronger but also now limited to your favored enemy. And it doesn't take a spell slot.
Lands Stride is mostly part of your level 1 stuff now. Replaced by bonus action dash...which is pretty good.
Hide in Plain sight is clearly improved.
Foe Slayer is improved too...but it's also still not that great.

So like, it's way stronger, but it's not OP or really even that strong compared to any other class out there.
If you use Revised you should use the official book rangers except for beastmaster as they are but add Extra Attack at to their archetype features at level 5. The Beast master archetype changes significantly so use that one from the UA doc.

[Unoriginal]

Subclasses are meant to be equally cool (if it succeed is another debate that shouldn't be done here).


My advice: flip a coin. If you like the result, keep it. If you don't like the result, pick the other subclass.

It's a good trick to see if you like one option better than the other.

[CTurbo]

Revised Ranger is much stronger, but the phb Ranger isn't bad. The biggest issue with the Revised Ranger is the potential for multiclassing abuse since it's so incredibly front loaded.

[JDanton]

Revised Ranger is much stronger, but the phb Ranger isn't bad. The biggest issue with the Revised Ranger is the potential for multiclassing abuse since it's so incredibly front loaded.

I don't intend on multiclassing, I'm not too fussed about being powerful as long as I'm still useful in combat, at least comparably to my allies. I'm more interested in which version of the class is most fun and which if any are unbalanced or under/overpowered.

[CTurbo]

Revised is perfectly fine as regular class. I'd go Hunter or Gloom Stalker all the way. Honestly even revised Beastmaster with Panther or Wolf is viable.

[JDanton]

Subclasses are meant to be equally cool (if it succeed is another debate that shouldn't be done here).


My advice: flip a coin. If you like the result, keep it. If you don't like the result, pick the other subclass.

It's a good trick to see if you like one option better than the other.

;-; But they're both so goddamn cool!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

;-; But they're both so goddamn cool!

(peeks out from behind wall)

Primeval Guardian is cooler.

[JDanton]

(peeks out from behind wall)

Primeval Guardian is cooler.

I had no idea this was a thing, I just looked it up and OMG you can literally turn into an ent! Wizards why did you do this?! it doesn't fit my character at all but I love it XD Thanks for letting me know this existed.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I had no idea this was a thing, I just looked it up and OMG you can literally turn into an ent! Wizards why did you do this?! it doesn't fit my character at all but I love it XD Thanks for letting me know this existed.

You can become a tree-sized archer that's un-chargeable!

[JDanton]

You can become a tree-sized archer that's un-chargeable!

I know it's amazing!! It kind of turns you into a pseudo-druid, tank, healer hybrid, the 5ft movemtn speed hurts a bit but it still looks like a lot of fun, I'll probably roll one for a oneshot at some point, sounds fun XD

[KorvinStarmast]

Seems like most people are suggesting Gloom Stalker over Horizon Walker, so I guess that's decided. I've got to know, outside of that first round of combat will I still be able to do consistent damage, Hunters Mark. In our last battle before I made it to gloom stalker (battle lasted six rounds, my ranger hit on 5 of 6 attacks). Each one got the hunter's mark bonus. My ranger isn't even a gloom stalker. Hunters mark remains a very useful part of the ranger's kit.

[JDanton]

Okay, from everything I've heard and all the great advice I'm going to go with the PHB ranger, gloom stalker. Any last second arguments, opinions or suggestions?!

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, from everything I've heard and all the great advice I'm going to go with the PHB ranger, gloom stalker. Any last second arguments, opinions or suggestions?! Have fun.

If you go vHuman, not sure what feat you want, but the longer I play this ranger the more I wish I'd taken Alert. The boosted initiative and the later boost from wisdom bonus makes for a lot of first strike potential.

[JDanton]

Have fun.

If you go vHuman, not sure what feat you want, but the longer I play this ranger the more I wish I'd taken Alert. The boosted initiative and the later boost from wisdom bonus makes for a lot of first strike potential.

I'm rolling a halfling but I'll have a look at all the feats when I get my first ability score improvement, I rolled pretty good stats so I should be able to go for a feat instead, we shall see.