Colossal weapon attacks, aoe?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

My players and an army will be fighting a very large opponent soon, and I’m wondering if anyone’s houseruled a good alternative to each of this colossal being’s attacks with their building-sized weapon hitting one single medium soldier per swing? Right now I’m considering just working out the weapon’s area and treating it as a big falling object, but then what if I want to have him swing it horizontally?

[liquidformat]

war hulk from miniatures handbook is a great place to start, between the swing and throwing abilities they give pretty good starting point for how a creature larger than large should be attacking... Honestly you could probably take their mighty swing ability and just increase the number of adjacent squares they hit per size category. You could also change what type of spread it is, like a vertical downwards attack from a huge character hits 4 squares in a straight line. whereas a horizontal swing his six adjacent squares within 20' reach of you. Between the mighty swing and reach of the creature I think there is a pretty good starting point.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

war hulk from miniatures handbook is a great place to start, between the swing and throwing abilities they give pretty good starting point for how a creature larger than large should be attacking... Honestly you could probably take their mighty swing ability and just increase the number of adjacent squares they hit per size category. You could also change what type of spread it is, like a vertical downwards attack from a huge character hits 4 squares in a straight line. whereas a horizontal swing his six adjacent squares within 20' reach of you. Between the mighty swing and reach of the creature I think there is a pretty good starting point.

Definitely going to borrow that template, not sure about the class as a whole. Thanks!

[Nousos]

The feat Area Attack from Savage Species does exactly this. Allows a semi circle attack in front of them with their reach as its radius, hurting all caught in it that are two size categories or smaller than you.

[DrMotives]

Huge & bigger dragons have this baked in with the tail sweep & crush attacks. Tail sweep makes a half-circle area of damage, crush is when they jump or fly and then land on an area to hit everything inside it. A colossal creature can have a footprint as big as a huge creature's entire silhouette easily.

[Zaq]

The feat Area Attack from Savage Species does exactly this. Allows a semi circle attack in front of them with their reach as its radius, hurting all caught in it that are two size categories or smaller than you.

Interestingly, the damage dealt by Area Attack seems to be automatic. It doesn't seem like you actually make an attack roll, and there doesn't seem to be a Reflex save or anything. It is, however, referred to as an "attack" several times over. Seems like there's some potential optimization to be done there, if you feel like drilling into RAW for a bit.

It also doesn't say that you have to use your square as the origin of the half-circle, but since the text is silent on where it CAN be centered, we'll probably assume for sanity's sake that it's centered on you.

[OgresAreCute]

Interestingly, the damage dealt by Area Attack seems to be automatic. It doesn't seem like you actually make an attack roll, and there doesn't seem to be a Reflex save or anything. It is, however, referred to as an "attack" several times over. Seems like there's some potential optimization to be done there, if you feel like drilling into RAW for a bit.

It also doesn't say that you have to use your square as the origin of the half-circle, but since the text is silent on where it CAN be centered, we'll probably assume for sanity's sake that it's centered on you.

Optimist: "The glass is half-full."

Pessimist: "The glass is half-empty."

Savage Species Authors: "You can write the other half of the rules yourself."

[Ellrin]

If we're getting into normal attacks by very large creatures hitting multiple squares, we should take height into account as well. A Colossal creature that is essentially humanoid in shape is going to have a very difficult time making a horizontal weapon sweep at a height that would actually hit typical Medium creatures on the ground without making himself flat-footed at the very least. I get the feeling that he'd mostly limit himself to downward swings and/or thrusts, depending on the type of weapon he's using, and probably stomps (assuming he has any attack options that would work that way); and this would by necessity limit the number of squares he can hit in a single attack. I mean, just as a physical experiment, you can find a two-and-half-foot to four-foot stick and see how much of it hits the ground when you swing it down.

[Pleh]

If we're getting into normal attacks by very large creatures hitting multiple squares, we should take height into account as well. A Colossal creature that is essentially humanoid in shape is going to have a very difficult time making a horizontal weapon sweep at a height that would actually hit typical Medium creatures on the ground without making himself flat-footed at the very least. I get the feeling that he'd mostly limit himself to downward swings and/or thrusts, depending on the type of weapon he's using, and probably stomps (assuming he has any attack options that would work that way); and this would by necessity limit the number of squares he can hit in a single attack. I mean, just as a physical experiment, you can find a two-and-half-foot to four-foot stick and see how much of it hits the ground when you swing it down.

Except we aren't aiming at the ground, but about a foot and a half above it.

Counter point: this is exactly the kind of "attack" which scythes were made for. You want a wide arc, low sweeping cut to maximize the plants you reap with each swing.

It isn't that hard to imagine making a similar attack with a giant log. You only need to clip the creatures using a weapon THAT heavy respective to them.

In fact, you rather DON'T want to hit the ground in your swing, it'll destroy your weapon's momentum.

[Fizban]

You wanna talk Savage Species area warfare attacks, take a look at Stamp. Just knock down everyone in a radius of 5' per hit die every round, while also pulverizing unattended objects and buildings.

In order for a big and tall creature to make a proper sweep across the ground, they would need a special weapon designed for it. Literally, a giant grass scythe, like the farm implement, which is designed to sweep in flat arcs just above the ground. The effects of this weapon would be up to the DM.

Masters of the Wild has the Caber, a 100lb log that hits a 10' square area when thrown. By 3.0 weapon rules a large enough creature could just chuck them one-handed while laughing at the non-proficiency penalty, but if the DM wants to increase the size of the weapon and the area, they could do so.

The traditional method of making big creatures destroy armies is by just giving them the Trample ability. This can also be gained by a 2nd level Totemist with the Gorgon Mask's totem bind.

The traditional method of making weapon attacks hit everywhere you can reach is the Whirlwind Attack feat. There are martial maneuvers which hit fewer and can be had for cheaper, in magic item form even.


Of course the best way to deal with an army of smaller creatures vs a big thing, is to get a mass battle system that can handle armies of smaller creatures vs big things, so that the big thing can attack "units" of creatures. Variations on the Mob template are common, and while I hate that as any sort of army system, plenty of other people like it, and if nothing else Mobs and Swarms provide precedent for swinging a weapon into an area and hitting multiple creatures. A mob has 48 medium creatures in a 20' square, which is three times as many as there should be. But you can't have a mob with 1/3 the normal amount of creatures, since reducing it by 1/3 gives enough negative levels to presumably disperse it, and a dispersed mob leaves around 30% of the original creatures (depending on which direction you figure it from, since the individual results don't match the group results).

But if we humor the idea, then 16 creatures in a formation might have 45 hit points which can be directly attacked (with +50 from AoE), and when those hit points are lost then 30% are dead, 30% are unconscious, and the rest are routed.

Of course, there's no reason that groups of normal people would ever run up to a colossal monster of any sort. They would spread out to surround and use the longest range weapons possible, either fishing for 20s or using the Heroes of Battle volleys to ignore AC, with any group that is approached turning right around and running away. So presumably this has been accounted for in the encounter, one way or another.

[Ellrin]

Except we aren't aiming at the ground, but about a foot and a half above it.

Counter point: this is exactly the kind of "attack" which scythes were made for. You want a wide arc, low sweeping cut to maximize the plants you reap with each swing.

It isn't that hard to imagine making a similar attack with a giant log. You only need to clip the creatures using a weapon THAT heavy respective to them.

In fact, you rather DON'T want to hit the ground in your swing, it'll destroy your weapon's momentum.

The official guideline for Colossal size is 64' and above in the creature's longest dimension—for something more or less humanoid, that's height. Medium creatures are officially 4' to 8', so let's say average bipedal Medium creature height is roughly 6'.

Now if we scale down a 64' humanoid down to a more normal human height like, say, 6'; and scale down the "average" Medium creature from our comparison by the same proportion, that creature is now six and three quarters inches tall. And remember, that 64' is the minimum.

So no, we're not aiming a foot and a half above the ground, we're aiming at most half a foot above the ground. There are plenty of combat styles that incorporate attacking opponents at that height (because feet are prime targets), but for the most part, outside of leg sweeps, those attacks tend to be confined to thrusts and stomps.

Incidentally, I believe the scythe in 3.5 is theoretically supposed to be one of the upper examples in this image (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Kosy_i_piki.jpg), i.e., an actual war scythe pole arm for real combat use, and not something designed for agriculture like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe#/media/File:Scythe_against_hedge.jpg), though who knows for sure. An agricultural scythe in the hands of a Colossal humanoid would be pretty damn intimidating for a Medium army, though, for sure.

A log-shaped object would not be easy to wield in the same fashion as an agricultural scythe, though. Note how an agricultural scythe has handles coming off its haft, how curved the haft is, and how the blade is at an extreme angle from the haft; these are all adaptations to make the scythe easier to control, natural to hold, and more secure to swing; and the blade being at that extreme angle is what allows the scythe to mow through such a large range of wheat/etc. in a single swing. Without these adaptations, a simple long, cylindrical object like a log would be difficult and awkward to swing in a similar fashion while maintaining grip, and wouldn't affect nearly the same area as a scythe.

I think perhaps the most effective area weapon for a Colossal humanoid against a Medium army, at least without getting into magic or post-steam engine technology, might be something like this old school push mower (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DqAsAjtqcog/maxresdefault.jpg), though somebody more mechanically inclined than me might see a way to easily jam that up.

[Pleh]

Prereqs for Area Attack are Huge size. My foot and a half statement stands.

By the time I'm a colossal humanoids attacking medium creatures, I can drag my scythe against the ground and it's like trampling them with a broom that deals lethal damage.

[Ellrin]

Prereqs for Area Attack are Huge size. My foot and a half statement stands.

By the time I'm a colossal humanoids attacking medium creatures, I can drag my scythe against the ground and it's like trampling them with a broom that deals lethal damage.

I believe I and OP were both talking specifically about Colossal creatures, though?

In any event, I've made a few edits to my immediately preceding post about the scythe.

[liquidformat]

I believe the agricultural scythe and caber style of throwing a log horizontally at groups of people would be really powerful. Similarly a Colossal bowling ball could be pretty effective. On a similar point I find it strange that the rock thrown by a giant of huge or larger size is only capable of hitting one creature regardless of size.

A good example of this goofyness is I am playing a war hulk/hulking hurler right now, he is capable of throwing an object weighing 819,200 lb, physically I don't think it is possible to have an object with that mass to even fit inside a 5' square outside the sun but I can only hit one person with it...

[Goaty14]

A good example of this goofyness is I am playing a war hulk/hulking hurler right now, he is capable of throwing an object weighing 819,200 lb, physically I don't think it is possible to have an object with that mass to even fit inside a 5' square outside the sun but I can only hit one person with it...

What is this, you didn't take Whirlwind Attack? Whyever not???

[liquidformat]

What is this, you didn't take Whirlwind Attack? Whyever not???

is the answer ever, take whirlwind attack outside of diablo 2?

[OgresAreCute]

is the answer ever, take whirlwind attack outside of diablo 2?

I'm sure other ARPGs like Diablo 3 and Path of Exile have whirlwind attack too.

[Calthropstu]

Stop attacking those poor whirlwinds. What'd they ever do to you you big meanies

[Fizban]

I mean, you can mock it all you want, but when there's a thing that does the thing you want and you refuse to consider it, that's not the thing's problem. Colossal creatures have tons of hit dice, which means tons of feats, so if it has the stats then Whirlwind Attack is hands down the best way to hit an area. Since there's not really any colossal humanoids normally, I must assume this is a custom monster, and there's no reason the DM couldn't give it the stats to take the feats.

[Zaq]

If we're getting into normal attacks by very large creatures hitting multiple squares, we should take height into account as well. A Colossal creature that is essentially humanoid in shape is going to have a very difficult time making a horizontal weapon sweep at a height that would actually hit typical Medium creatures on the ground without making himself flat-footed at the very least. I get the feeling that he'd mostly limit himself to downward swings and/or thrusts, depending on the type of weapon he's using, and probably stomps (assuming he has any attack options that would work that way); and this would by necessity limit the number of squares he can hit in a single attack. I mean, just as a physical experiment, you can find a two-and-half-foot to four-foot stick and see how much of it hits the ground when you swing it down.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that this is exactly why big things get size penalties to attack rolls. Like, I think that this is the exact reason.

[Calthropstu]

I mean, you can mock it all you want, but when there's a thing that does the thing you want and you refuse to consider it, that's not the thing's problem. Colossal creatures have tons of hit dice, which means tons of feats, so if it has the stats then Whirlwind Attack is hands down the best way to hit an area. Since there's not really any colossal humanoids normally, I must assume this is a custom monster, and there's no reason the DM couldn't give it the stats to take the feats.

True enough actually. Whirlwind attack is actually amazing for huge+ size creatures. The area they can hit is massive.

I like to use Astral construct and give it whirlwind on a huge one. Superb for crowd control.