3.5e a Cleric of a good god raiding an undead horse

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

My player asked me a question.

He don't know what to do.

He is a Cleric of CG god so he can't get evil spells like Animated Dead.

I gave them undead horses from a high Cleric of Evening Glory.

Because his god can't give him evil spells he don't know if the god is against undead(Palor level) or if it is ok with his god because he didn't add an undead to the world and by doing so he didn't gave anything to the Evil cosmic power.

Those horses are TN with the Evil subtype(they are undead)
I can't find where it say that undead have subtype evil.


I hope I didn't made a mass, I am looking for the god name.

[Endril_69]

As written, it looks like it would violate a good cleric's ethos. However, as this deity is neutral, and referred to as "the deathless beauty", couldn't you convince the DM to make them deathless instead?

[King of Nowhere]

It depends a lot on the campaign.
Some settings just assume raising undead is evil no matter what.
Some consider them no different from constructs, so there's no problem with good people using undead.
Depends on where your campaign falls

[BloodSnake'sCha]

As written, it looks like it would violate a good cleric's ethos. However, as this deity is neutral, and referred to as "the deathless beauty", couldn't you convince the DM to make them deathless instead?
As the DM I will not make them deathless.

It depends a lot on the campaign.
Some settings just assume raising undead is evil no matter what.
Some consider them no different from constructs, so there's no problem with good people using undead.
Depends on where your campaign falls

In my settings casting the spells for raising undead is evil as the spell is evil.

The undead themselves can be everything.

The question is about the way of thinking, I am trying to help my player as he his lost and ask for help.

[Daefos]

Can't the cleric just... not accept the horse?

If you're the DM, whether or not he'd get in trouble with his god is entirely up to you. And if you're asking whether or not the cleric's deity, as presented in their default lore, would be bothered by the cleric accepting an undead mount, it would be somewhat helpful if you told us the deity's name. :smallconfused:

And undead do not have the [Evil] subtype. That's generally reserved for outsiders that are literally composed of Evil, like fiends. Undead, being meatsacks pumped full of negative energy, are not physically made of Evil in the same way that a demon is. The only relationship between undead and an Evil alignment is that most undead have one.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Can't the cleric just... not accept the horse?

If you're the DM, whether or not he'd get in trouble with his god is entirely up to you. And if you're asking whether or not the cleric's deity, as presented in their default lore, would be bothered by the cleric accepting an undead mount, it would be somewhat helpful if you told us the deity's name. :smallconfused:

And undead do not have the [Evil] subtype. That's generally reserved for outsiders that are literally composed of Evil, like fiends. Undead, being meatsacks pumped full of negative energy, are not physically made of Evil in the same way that a demon is. The only relationship between undead and an Evil alignment is that most undead have one.
He already took the horse, he needed a way to travel and he notice that the horse is undead to late(the temple of Evening Glory use Disguise Undead for the Undead that go out of the temple because they want to keep them safe).

He is now at the location he was going to and he need to choose if will keep the horse(like most of the party) or will he kill all the horses. He is stuck because he can't make undead because the spells are evil but the undead aren't evil

His god is Labelas Enoreth.

[DeTess]

Why doesn't he know his gods opinion on undead? I'd expect that to be fairly common knowledge, so a DC10 or DC15 knowledge(religion) check at most, and probably just common knowledge for a cleric. Failing that, he has access to a couple of spells that would just let him ask his gods opinion (augury, for example. Just ask what'll happen if he keeps the horse).

I quickly checked, and based on what I read on the wiki, his god isn't exactly thrilled by undead, but isn't like pelor in this regard.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Why doesn't he know his gods opinion on undead? I'd expect that to be fairly common knowledge, so a DC10 or DC15 knowledge(religion) check at most, and probably just common knowledge for a cleric. Failing that, he has access to a couple of spells that would just let him ask his gods opinion (augury, for example. Just ask what'll happen if he keeps the horse).

I quickly checked, and based on what I read on the wiki, his god isn't exactly thrilled by undead, but isn't like pelor in this regard.
He know that his god don't care if he use it or now(he rolled 43 on the K.Religion check).
He is trying to get how the PC should react.

His problem is that he can't ask for the spell from his god and it make his PC to have a problem with it.

I just want your opinion on it because he need some different points of view.

[DeTess]

He know that his god don't care if he use it or now(he rolled 43 on the K.Religion check).
He is trying to get how the PC should react.

His problem is that he can't ask for the spell from his god and it make his PC to have a problem with it.

I just want your opinion on it because he need some different points of view.

So the PC already knows his god doesn't care? (also, why can't he get augury from his god?) In that case all he has to do is decide if his character hates all undead or not, which is a decision only he can make, and there's no wrong choice.

He should not attack the horses of the party members that decided to keep theirs though, as that'll get his character kicked out of the party, and depending on the maturity of the group, get him kicked out of the group.

[Fizban]

Those horses are TN
You have answered your own question. The PC can't do anything about whatever Evil may have been committed to create the thing, but since in your world there is nothing inherently Evil about the undead themselves, there is no reason for the PC to not make the best of the situation. They should use the undead horse until they have a reason to stop doing so.

That said, I don't like that statement that the player is "lost." You set up the situation where a Good PC with a need to remain Good was given help by an Evil person. The player isn't lost so much as you threw them in the woods without a map.

[Wraith]

It sounds like you have given the player all of the information that he needs to know, and he is just conflicted about how his character is gong to react. Firstly, well done on inviting such an open exchange between player and GM - all we tend to get on GitP are variations of "I did X, player thinks Y, what do?" :smalltongue:

To offer some suggestions as to how he could react?

1) The Cleric chooses to emulate his God as closely as possible; he doesn't particularly care and so uses the tools offered to him, provided that he's not expected to commit an Evil act by making more of them. His God is Chaotic, so bending the social convention of NOT having an evil undead horse shouldn't be that big of a deal, in the long run.

(Please note the use of the lower-case evil; I know you said they're TN, but I'm referring to the post further up where you said that summoning them was an evil act)

2) He acknowledges that his God doesn't mind, but decides that he prefers to set a Good example rather than a Chaotic one and refrain from using undead horses. He abandons it (or destroys it?) and gets a different one; Maybe he buys a flesh and blood horse and suffers the consequences as a burden of his role, or maybe he prays to his God and asks for a non-Undead equivalent?

3) He goes fully Stupid Good and purges all Undead from the world, starting with his own horse and going on to his companions'. The undead horses might be more efficient, but they're still an abomination and destroying them is a worthwhile sacrifice.

4) He keeps the horse, but rather than condemn it as an evil undead creature he tries to redeem it. Could he consecrate it and dedicate it to his own God? Maybe there's a spell or rite which will change it from being undead to something less offensive? It's not the horse's fault that it's undead after all, so maybe he has some sympathy for it's wretched state?

5) He accepts that the horse is both undead and possibly evil, but even though he finds it distasteful his need is great so he carries on using them, pledging to get rid of it at the earliest opportunity and then finding a way to Atone thereafter. Maybe he could take a Vow of Poverty or Celibacy or something as penance for as long as he has an undead mount, to prove that he is apologetic for it and intends to stop as soon as possible?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

So the PC already knows his god doesn't care? (also, why can't he get augury from his god?) In that case all he has to do is decide if his character hates all undead or not, which is a decision only he can make, and there's no wrong choice.

He should not attack the horses of the party members that decided to keep theirs though, as that'll get his character kicked out of the party, and depending on the maturity of the group, get him kicked out of the group.
In my group it is ok if he will kill all the horses, we are friends for a long time and we will never let an IC conflicts get OOC.
I just realized that even the other PCs will not get so angry becausethere personality.

You have answered your own question. The PC can't do anything about whatever Evil may have been committed to create the thing, but since in your world there is nothing inherently Evil about the undead themselves, there is no reason for the PC to not make the best of the situation. They should use the undead horse until they have a reason to stop doing so.

That said, I don't like that statement that the player is "lost." You set up the situation where a Good PC with a need to remain Good was given help by an Evil person. The player isn't lost so much as you threw them in the woods without a map.
When the player tell me he is lost then he is lost, I am going to help him.

BTW, that was TN Lich High Prist Cleric of Evening Glory, Not an Evil person.

It sounds like you have given the player all of the information that he needs to know, and he is just conflicted about how his character is gong to react. Firstly, well done on inviting such an open exchange between player and GM - all we tend to get on GitP are variations of "I did X, player thinks Y, what do?" :smalltongue:

To offer some suggestions as to how he could react?

1) The Cleric chooses to emulate his God as closely as possible; he doesn't particularly care and so uses the tools offered to him, provided that he's not expected to commit an Evil act by making more of them. His God is Chaotic, so bending the social convention of NOT having an evil undead horse shouldn't be that big of a deal, in the long run.

(Please note the use of the lower-case evil; I know you said they're TN, but I'm referring to the post further up where you said that summoning them was an evil act)

2) He acknowledges that his God doesn't mind, but decides that he prefers to set a Good example rather than a Chaotic one and refrain from using undead horses. He abandons it (or destroys it?) and gets a different one; Maybe he buys a flesh and blood horse and suffers the consequences as a burden of his role, or maybe he prays to his God and asks for a non-Undead equivalent?

3) He goes fully Stupid Good and purges all Undead from the world, starting with his own horse and going on to his companions'. The undead horses might be more efficient, but they're still an abomination and destroying them is a worthwhile sacrifice.

4) He keeps the horse, but rather than condemn it as an evil undead creature he tries to redeem it. Could he consecrate it and dedicate it to his own God? Maybe there's a spell or rite which will change it from being undead to something less offensive? It's not the horse's fault that it's undead after all, so maybe he has some sympathy for it's wretched state?

5) He accepts that the horse is both undead and possibly evil, but even though he finds it distasteful his need is great so he carries on using them, pledging to get rid of it at the earliest opportunity and then finding a way to Atone thereafter. Maybe he could take a Vow of Poverty or Celibacy or something as penance for as long as he has an undead mount, to prove that he is apologetic for it and intends to stop as soon as possible?
Thank you, this is great :)

[denthor]

3.5 has an interesting twist for clerics of a CG god

They can be CN so

Recap:

Takes what he thinks is horse.
Chaotic end of things spell on horse time trick people
Whoops I fell for it. Chaos gets a win.

I can be neutral and still get spells

Destroying property that is not mine is evil in itself. So returning the horses with a CN person from my church is acceptable.

He is affected in a minor hit to good end. Continue to monitor his progress on the slow drift to neutral

[Saintheart]

...oh, it's riding an undead horse. I had paled at the thread title for a while there. At least the 'd' wasn't a 'p'.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

3.5 has an interesting twist for clerics of a CG god

They can be CN so

Recap:

Takes what he thinks is horse.
Chaotic end of things spell on horse time trick people
Whoops I fell for it. Chaos gets a win.

I can be neutral and still get spells

Destroying property that is not mine is evil in itself. So returning the horses with a CN person from my church is acceptable.

He is affected in a minor hit to good end. Continue to monitor his progress on the slow drift to neutral
I don't really know what you wrote but even if he was CN and not CG he couldn't cast the spell.


Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.



...oh, it's riding an undead horse. I had paled at the thread title for a while there. At least the 'd' wasn't a 'p'.
I have to know what you thought the title was.

[Mordaedil]

He uses the horse and puts it to rest when he arrives at his destination, spends an hour praying for the spirit of the horse to return to its original destination.

It doesn't need to be made into a complex scenario if it has gotten to this point.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

He uses the horse and puts it to rest when he arrives at his destination, spends an hour praying for the spirit of the horse to return to its original destination.

It doesn't need to be made into a complex scenario if it has gotten to this point.

Of course it need to be a complex scenario, that the way we like to play.

[DeTess]

I don't really know what you wrote but even if he was CN and not CG he couldn't cast the spell.


Why is the fact that he can't cast the spell such a big deal? He can't cast fireball either, does that make it wrong if the wizard uses it to help them win a fight?

[paddyfool]

Depending on level, he might be able to Resurrect the original horse once he reaches his destination. Not exactly resource efficient, but very characterful.

[Saintheart]

I have to know what you thought the title was.

To be honest, I first presumed the word "horse" was a typo and thought it was "Cleric of a good god raiding an undead house", and wondered whether it was a question of how to do so with maximum destruction. It was only when I skimmed the first post and saw the word 'horse' wasn't a typo that I started to blanch.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Why is the fact that he can't cast the spell such a big deal? He can't cast fireball either, does that make it wrong if the wizard uses it to help them win a fight?
I don't know myself, those humans are weird.

Basically he takes the pact that his god don't give him some spells as a sign.
He don't know if he want to think about at as "he don't want me to do Evil" or "He want me to fix the Evil that has been done"(the spell itself is evil and act for the Evil cosmic force).

Depending on level, he might be able to Resurrect the original horse once he reaches his destination. Not exactly resource efficient, but very characterful.
He is unable to, he is DFA/Cleric/Elderlic Disaipel he don't have level 3 spells(the party is at level 8 or 9, I don't have access to my stuff, to be a soldier and DM is hard)

To be honest, I first presumed the word "horse" was a typo and thought it was "Cleric of a good god raiding an undead house", and wondered whether it was a question of how to do so with maximum destruction. It was only when I skimmed the first post and saw the word 'horse' wasn't a typo that I started to blanch.
This is a great character concept, I will try to make it.

The hardest part is to make the house an undead.

[Wraith]

The hardest part is to make the house an undead.

Take a pile of Trappers, Lurkers Above and Stun-jellies, arrange them into suitable 1x1 cubes and hit them with the Undead template. The front door is a mimic; roll initiative, jerks!

[Spore]

A horse is a tool for transportation for the most. If your god does not care your character immediate sensibilities might still dislike the horrid abomination that is an undead horse. If he is not the destructive type, he would give it back. If he however is, he would destroy it.