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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The Death Sage (Sorceresque Necromancy focussed Caster)



GrayDeath
2018-08-12, 01:40 PM
Preface: As with all my classes, this is meant to be 3.p. If using it for 3.x, a reduction of the SKillpts/LEvel and slightly reducing one or three class features should be enough to land it in the same ballpark balancewise.

THis class is intended to be THE Necromancy focussed Caster, with some (not too much) flexibility tacked on. It is aimed to be middle of the road T2 (worse inc asting overall, but much better in class features, than the Sorcerer).

Everthing running counter to that aim, I am very grateful for anybody to point out, in as much detail as possible.

What I am not looking for (needless to say, really^^) are comments alà "not needed/Class combo abcxy does that already" and similar stuff.

What is neither asked nor refused are other comments (Funny ones are preferred though :P ).

So, without further Ado:


The Death Sage


Be it due to unique talents, cursed heritage, a fanatical hunger for knowledge of (and power over) death or a combination of those, the DeathS ages are magic users almost entirely focussed on manipulating the very energies of death itself.
WHile not inherently of any alignment, it is a very rare Death Sage that is good (and mostly not for long), and few of them are truly chaotic, as they are usually to single mindedly focussed for that.

Role: Caster with Focus on Miniomancy, Battlefield Control and "Save or lose" Spells.

Important Stats: Intelligence is the most important attribute of the Death Sage, closely followed by Wisdom. Constitution can, if one survives until Level 10, be ignored, but is important beforehand.
They usually look derogatoriyl upon Charisma (soft skills, pah) and Strength (what are minions for?).


Mechanics:

Regular Death Sage (Deathbringer Deathsage)

Hitdie: D6 (D8)

BAB: Low (Medium)

Saves: High Will (and Reflex)

Skillpts/Level 4+Int Mod

CLass Skills: Class Skills: Bluff, Craft (Flesh, Bone, any one), Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcane, Religion, History), Linguistics, Perception.

Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: All Simple Weapons, Light Armor, no Shields (+ Warscythe, + Medium Armor).

Spellcasting: Death Sages are spontaneous casters which can pick their spells from any Necromancy and [Evil] SPells that are not in their forbidden Schools (see below) as well as any Sorcerer/Wizard List Spells of the Necromancy and Abjuration Schools.
They may choose one other School to add to their Knowledge (these can never be Illusion, as they disdain the "Playfulness" of the school, or Transmutation, as their focus on necromantic energies hampers their understanding of the subject) to learn spells from (also limited to Sorcerer/Wizard List) OR, if they concentrate on the 2 "Basic" schools only, add one spell known of up to their second highest possible Spell level at levels 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 and 20.
They begin the Game knowing all Necromancy and Abjuration Orisons!

CLarification: If a Spell not from the WIzard or Sorcerer List they can choose appears on different Spell levels in different CLass Tables, they must use only Tables of full 9th Level casters. From these however, they can pick it up as early as it appears.

Spells known (For Deathbringers subtract one Spell known Maximum and move the Level where new Spells are gained to Sorcerer Progression instead of the listed!).



Deathsage Spells known
================================================== =
Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
================================================== =
1 2 - - - - - - - -
2 4 - - - - - - - -
3 4 1 - - - - - - -
4 5 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 2 1 - - - - - -
6 6 3 2 - - - - - -
7 6 3 3 1 - - - - -
8 7 4 3 1 - - - - -
9 7 5 3 2 1 - - - -
10 8 5 4 3 1 - - - -
11 8 6 4 3 2 1 - - -
12 8 6 5 4 3 1 - - -
13 8 7 5 4 3 2 1 - -
14 8 7 6 5 3 2 1 - -
15 8 8 6 5 4 3 2 1 -
16 8 8 7 6 4 3 2 1 -
17 8 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
18 8 8 8 7 6 5 3 2 1
19 8 8 8 7 7 6 4 3 1
20 8 8 8 7 7 7 5 3 2








Death Sage Spells/Day
================================================== =
Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
================================================== =
1 3 - - - - - - - -
2 5 - - - - - - - -
3 6 1 - - - - - - -
4 7 3 - - - - - - -
5 8 5 1 - - - - - -
6 9 6 3 - - - - - -
7 9 7 5 1 - - - - -
8 9 8 6 3 - - - - -
9 9 9 7 5 1 - - - -
10 9 9 8 6 3 - - - -
11 9 9 9 6 5 1 - - -
12 9 9 9 7 5 3 - - -
13 9 9 9 7 6 4 1 - -
14 9 9 9 8 6 5 2 - -
15 9 9 9 8 7 5 3 1 -
16 9 9 9 8 7 6 4 2 -
17 9 9 9 8 7 6 4 2 1
18 9 9 9 8 8 7 5 3 1
19 9 9 9 8 8 7 5 3 2
20 9 9 9 8 8 7 6 4 3




Bonus SPells/Day due to High Intelligence are claculated as for the Wizard.


Death Sage


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+0

+0

+0

+2
Undead Knowledge, Armored Caster (Light, medium if Deathbringer), Rebuke Undead


2nd

+1

+0

+0

+3
Touched by Death 1,, Spell Focus Necromancy


3rd

+1

+1

+1

+3
Skill Focus Craft and Linguistics


4th

+2

+1

+1

+4
Channel Negative Energy



5th

+2

+4

+4

+1
Touched By Death 2


6th

+3

+2

+2

+5
Friend of the Undead, Improved Animate Dead 1



7th

+3

+2

+2

+5
Undead Commander 1


8th

+4

+2

+2

+6
Touched by Death 3


9th

+4

+6

+6

+3
Greater Spell Focus Necromancy


10th

+5

+3

+3

+7
Lesser Undead Body (Necropolitan Variant), Consume Undead 1


11th

+5

+4

+4

+7
Touched by Death 4, improved Animate Dead 2


12th

+6/+1

+4

+4

+8
Undead Commander 2


13th

+6/+1

+5

+5

+8
Spirit over Matter


14th

+7/+2

+5

+5

+9
Necromantic Enlightenment 1


15th

+7/+2

+5

+5

+9
Touched by Death 5, Improved Animate Dead 2


16th

+8/3

+6

+6

+10
Undead Body (improved)


17th

+8/3

+6

+6

+10
Consume Undead 2


18th

+9/+4

+6

+6

+11
Dual Being


19th

+9/+4

6

+6

+11
Undead Commander 3l


20th

+10/+5

+6

+6

+12
Lich Transformation, Necromantic Enlughtenment 2.






Armored Caster: A Death Sages Gestures are primal and primitive if compared to more refined and learned (or as he would say softer casters). hence he can cast in light Armor (or if the Deathbringer Archetpye is chosen, medium) armor without risking Arcane Spell Failure.

Undead Knowledge: Adds his level in this class to any rolls made to identify Undead and half the level to determine specific weaknesses of unknown/new Undead.

Touched by Death: For every Level of this ability, gains DR 2/Crushing, Cold Resistance 5 and +3 HP.

Channel Negative Energy: See Cleric Ability, but uses Wisdom instead of Charisma for ALL effects.
Same for Rebuke Undead.

Improved Animate Dead 1: Your Maximum Limit of Creatures controlled via Animate Dead is now 6 HD instead of 4 HD per Caster Level.

Improved Animate Dead 2: You can now create 3 times your caster levels worth of Undead HD with one casting of Animate Dead instead of 2 times. This also allows you to animate creatures with more than 20 HD with this spell (given your level is high enough and the creature is a valid target).

Friend of the Undead: Mindless undead never attack the Death Sage unless commanded to do so. Intelligent Undead begin one step more friendly towards him at first meeting.

Undead Commander: Per Level of this ability, add +5+1/2 Level to the maximum number of HD of Intelligent and twice that to the maximum number of mindless Undead controllable via Rebuke Undead or “Create X” Spells.

Lesser Undead Body: The Death Sage transforms into a basic, intelligent Undead with the following modifications (others might be added if another Death Sage or multiples help with the ritual, though that requires payment in height of one Level worth of XP and can add +2 to all a ttributes and Natural AC in addition to the regular changes): Type: Undead, with all regular immunities and Weaknesses, -2 Cha, Turn Resistance +4.

Consume Undead: The Death Sages new Body allows her to consume other beings driven by negative energy to heal herself. Any Undead under the Control of the Death Sage is a valid target. Consume undead heals her by that Creatures HD *3 HP. This ability can only be used every other turn.
Consume Undead 2 increases the amount healed by 2hp per hd and grants a temporary boost to Strength of 1. The duration of the boost is 5 Minutes per HD the creature had (if using multiple creatures, the duration counts the lowest HD number among them!).
With both abilities an attempt can be made to affect an undead NOT under the Death Sages Control, but in that case, a comparing Will Save is made. If the Death Sage loses, the targetted undead instead “steals” 10 hp from him.

Spirit over Matter: The Deathsage adds the combined natural Bonus of his Intelligence and Wisdom as Bonus HP per Level.

Necromantic Enlightenment: Whenever casting a Necromancy Spell 2 levels or more below the maximum Level he can cast, roll a D20. On a Result of 7 or less, the Spell is not expended. Add +1 for each time this ability has worked within the last 24 hours to the roll (ergo after working 6 times at the latest the ability ceases to work).
The second Level of this Ability increases the number to be rolled below to 11.

Dual Being: The Death Sage is now permanently partially in the negative Energy plane, unless he specifically suppresses this ability (which requires a swift action each turn he does so but has no other negative (^^) effects).
Effects: Immunity to critical hits/Precision damage of any type, Miss chance of 33 % against all physical attacks, can perceive and interact with both planes at the same time, gains +20ft movement speed and SR equal to 15+ his Level.


Lich Transformation: Varies depending on Style and Alignment. Usually choose one of the LA +4 or less Liches available or, with the DM`s permission, design one.
All have in Common: At least +4 natural AC, Phylactery of some kind, no longer "looking pretty and human” and Fast Healing of at least 3.



Deathbringer Archetype: Some Death Sages revel in a more direct approach towards Death, and prefer to kill thier ... subjects themselves before repurposing them, or simply have too much unchecked aggression. These are called D Deathbringers, and sadly follow the CLichee of Madmen with Scythes to a T.

Still, as Edgelordly as they may look, they are still quite powerful Necromancer/Combattant Combos, if played and built well enough.


Experimental Ideas:

Class Only Feats: Planning on allowig only 1 of these to be chosen, somewhere around Level 8-10ish.


Necromantic Overchannel: Requires Wisdom 15+ and the Ability to Channel Negative Energy.

When casting any Necromancy Spell, you may expend one usage of Channel Negative Energy in the same action.
This has one of the following 3 Effects:

1.: With Spells dealing Damage: The Negative Energy Damage is simply added to the Spell, but at the SPells area, not the normal AoE of the Channel!

2.: Spells Anmating Undead: If used to animate Mindless Undead, they are created with a bonus of +4 to their Strength Score and +1 HP/HD. However they have a chance of 20% (determined at casting) to self destruct violently after 1d3 days.
If used to create intelligent Undead, the created Undead has the Ability to Channel negative Energy 1 time/ day for every 4 HD it has (round down). Its effective Cleric Level for this ability euqls total HD -2.

3.: With Spells doing neither: Their Save DC is increased by 1+your Level in Death Sage/3.

Channeling that much raw energy of Death however has its price. Every time, starting with the second use of this ability within 24 hours, you Overchannel, you suffer from increased vulnerability to your mind afterwards. For 1 hour after using this ability, your will save is reduced by 3 points. THis Malus cannot reduce your Will Save total below +1.


Touch of Negativity Requires Intelligence of 18 or more, and the ability to cast 4th level necromancy Spells.

Whenever casting a Necromancy spell on a target with less HD than you, one of the follwoing 2 things happens:

1.: Spells that require a Save: The Target has to save twice against the Spell, and pass both saves to pass.

2.: Spells that do not allow a Save: You may isntinctively "attach" a second Necromancy Spell, that does not require a save either, to the first. Both Spells take effect seperately, but at the same time.
This expends both spells, and the increased effort makes it impossible to use this ability more often than every 3 turns.


True Lord of the Dead: Requires Level 12.

Choose either Mindless or Intelligent Undead.

If mindless are chosen, all Mindless undead you create (in addition to any other bonuses due to spells or Skills or whatever) gain +1 HP per Hitdie, and +2 natural Armor Class.

If Intelligent are chosen, the Number of Intelligent Undead you can control is increased by 33% (after applying all other numrerical bonuses).

Giegue
2018-08-14, 05:14 PM
Looks good, but I have a few nitpicks. Mainly the undead controlled is way too low. While I understand getting less undead than a Dread Necro due to the increased spell versatility, this class is still more limited than a deathbound domain cleric versatility wise, yet I crunched the numbers and for pretty much almost his entire lifetime the Death Sage gets significantly less undead controlled than a cleric with the Deathbound domain. Granted, once you hit 12th level things start to look better, but for a class whoes goal is to be THE hoardmaster, I feel being both more limited casting wise that a deathbound cleric AND worse minion-wise than a deathbound cleric for 11 levels of its progression just dose not feel right nor accomplish the class' intended goal of being a happy medium between the hyper-focused specialist that is the Dread Necromancer and versatile generalist with undead-raising skills that is the deathbound domain cleric. So my suggestion to fix this? Have the undead commander 1 ability also increase the base undead controlled with animate dead from 4 HD per-caster level to 6 HD per-caster level, as well as hand out the bonus to your control cap that it already does. This puts you firmly ahead of the Deathbound Domain cleric while keeping you behind a Dread Necro, though the gap between you and a DN becomes much smaller as you gain more stacks of undead commander.

Other than this issue, the class looks good, and I'd want to try my hand at playing it with the change I suggested above applied. You have a solid class concept, so good job!

Also, while not entirely related, I made my own Necromancy-themed base class. However, its divine Cha-caster rather than arcane Int one,and more of a generalist than your class, but either way I felt I should share it since you seem to be a necromancy fan. Feel free to crib ideas from it, if you wish. It can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564215-The-Reaper-(Tier-1-Divine-Cha-caster-Undead-Lord-and-Scythe-Weilding-Assassin)&p=23232038#post23232038)

Just to Browse
2018-08-14, 10:54 PM
I'm not a fan of the spellcasting. You get Necromancy & Abjuration, but you can swap either of those (including Necromancy!) out for any other school, but you can't choose Transmutation or Illusion. Also if you go the default route you get bonuses that aren't shown in the table. Also no matter what you choose, you get all 0-level spells from Necromancy and Abjuration... and you cast them as divine spells? Since this class is supposed to be the premiere necromancer, writing out a Necromancy-focused spell list seems like a no-brainer. Necromancer spell lists are one of the easiest, because there are already 2 official spell lists for you to build off of (Dread Necromancer and Death Master).

Also, what does Skill Focus (Craft and Linguistics) have to do with undeath?

My last bit of feedback is to make sure your class has clear incentives. It's weird to see the class that gets DR2 and +3 HP at level 2 with low BAB and level 9 spells. It's also strange to have a horde-master theme in Undead Commander when Rebuke only shows up at level 4. Instead of coming across as a flexible way to explore the various Necromancer fantasies, this feels like a bunch of necromancy ideas tossed into a blender that was set to 'puree'.

GrayDeath
2018-08-15, 07:04 AM
Looks good, but I have a few nitpicks. Mainly the undead controlled is way too low. While I understand getting less undead than a Dread Necro due to the increased spell versatility, this class is still more limited than a deathbound domain cleric versatility wise, yet I crunched the numbers and for pretty much almost his entire lifetime the Death Sage gets significantly less undead controlled than a cleric with the Deathbound domain. Granted, once you hit 12th level things start to look better, but for a class whoes goal is to be THE hoardmaster, I feel being both more limited casting wise that a deathbound cleric AND worse minion-wise than a deathbound cleric for 11 levels of its progression just dose not feel right nor accomplish the class' intended goal of being a happy medium between the hyper-focused specialist that is the Dread Necromancer and versatile generalist with undead-raising skills that is the deathbound domain cleric. So my suggestion to fix this? Have the undead commander 1 ability also increase the base undead controlled with animate dead from 4 HD per-caster level to 6 HD per-caster level, as well as hand out the bonus to your control cap that it already does. This puts you firmly ahead of the Deathbound Domain cleric while keeping you behind a Dread Necro, though the gap between you and a DN becomes much smaller as you gain more stacks of undead commander.

Other than this issue, the class looks good, and I'd want to try my hand at playing it with the change I suggested above applied. You have a solid class concept, so good job!

Also, while not entirely related, I made my own Necromancy-themed base class. However, its divine Cha-caster rather than arcane Int one,and more of a generalist than your class, but either way I felt I should share it since you seem to be a necromancy fan. Feel free to crib ideas from it, if you wish. It can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564215-The-Reaper-(Tier-1-Divine-Cha-caster-Undead-Lord-and-Scythe-Weilding-Assassin)&p=23232038#post23232038)


THank you for your detailed feedback!

I wanted to avoid modifying the HD from the spells until Iw as sure the basics worked well enough, which they seem to be doing.

WIll be edited in with some other changes that might come up.

I am happy to read you`d like to paly that class, so would I, but alas I have yet to find a group where playing a Necromancer "for real" does not either bog down everything or overshadow the other characters....



I'm not a fan of the spellcasting. You get Necromancy & Abjuration, but you can swap either of those (including Necromancy!) out for any other school, but you can't choose Transmutation or Illusion. Also if you go the default route you get bonuses that aren't shown in the table. Also no matter what you choose, you get all 0-level spells from Necromancy and Abjuration... and you cast them as divine spells? Since this class is supposed to be the premiere necromancer, writing out a Necromancy-focused spell list seems like a no-brainer. Necromancer spell lists are one of the easiest, because there are already 2 official spell lists for you to build off of (Dread Necromancer and Death Master).


Ah, you got that wrong.

You ALWAYS can choose Necromancy and Abjuration spells. Period.
YOu MAY add another School (except the forbidden ones) OR you gain extra Spells known as written.
How would you ahve made it more clear, as Id ont want to be unclear regarding what is meant :)

They cast Divine SPells as Divine Spells, and Arcane Spells as arcane Spells. I thought that was clear?

And I intentionally did not write a completely fixed list, as I did not want another Dread Necro (which does the only Necromancy, guys" well enough) but something between a Sorcerer and that.




Also, what does Skill Focus (Craft and Linguistics) have to do with undeath?


Not a lot. its more a part of the oftentimes extreme obsessive nature of the Class (and helps to make nice stuff out of BOnes and pretty up their Bone Creatures and read dead Civilizations tomes, so more fluff than anything ^^).



My last bit of feedback is to make sure your class has clear incentives. It's weird to see the class that gets DR2 and +3 HP at level 2 with low BAB and level 9 spells. It's also strange to have a horde-master theme in Undead Commander when Rebuke only shows up at level 4. Instead of coming across as a flexible way to explore the various Necromancer fantasies, this feels like a bunch of necromancy ideas tossed into a blender that was set to 'puree'.

Hmmm, again, I was not aiming for a razor sharp focus everywhere.

The DR and HP are side effects of becoming Suffused by negative ENergy" and more and more resilient to stuff, for example.

And I wanted to avoid having Rebuke at Level 1 as well to make it a little elss frontloaded (and dippable, I hate to make "Dipclasses^^).

So in some way you could say that the "NecroPurree" was intentional ^^

Giegue
2018-08-15, 07:14 AM
For what it does, the class seems fine. As said, it’s a mid-way point between generalists like the Deathbound Domain Cleric and my Reaper class, and the hyper-specialized Dread Necromancer. One thing you may consider if you want a tad more versatility giving them the ability to select any Necromancy or [evil] spell (regardless of list) and any non illusion or transmutation wis/sorc spell as a known spell. Such a change would not be overpowering, in my eyes, would make sense for an Int-based arcane caster, and let the class function more like the “Necro Sorcerer” it’s trying to be.

Just to Browse
2018-08-15, 08:13 AM
All spells can be cast as either divine or arcane. Your class is supposed to determine what they are. I do recommend taking a deeper look at that spellcasting, because it's difficult for me to understand even after you've explained it to me. Your players are probably going to glaze over and it and just write "abjuration + necromancy" on their character sheet.

As for a fixed spell list, it's not the end of the world if you don't include one, but be aware that it makes your class less of a Necromancer. Aesthetics is a budget, and every bit of extra non-necromancy "stuff" you put into the class dilutes it. Spells take up a lot of space in a class's aesthetics, and you can very well have a Death Sage that gets by from levels 1-3 without doing a single bit of real necromancy. I think that pulls you too far away from "THE Necromancy focused Caster" that you were starting with, but if you're OK with a Necromancer that can play like an abjurer, then that is your prerogative.

Re: focus, I don't think you need to get "razor-sharp" in your focus. But you probably need to get further than "extremely blunt". Puree classes tend to play pretty badly, because they don't teach players how to build the character they are interested in. You can trick players into thinking this is a good death knight archetype, even though the low BAB and d6 hit die make it bad for combat. You can trick players into thinking this is a good undead general, even though the HD you can command is low and your animation / rebuking comes late. If that's the kind of class you want, you can definitely have it, but this class may frustrate your players in a way that the Dread Necromancer, Death Master, or another homebrew like the Ebon Initiate wouldn't.

Giegue
2018-08-15, 09:10 AM
Just to Browse does make valid points about a few things; specificity the low Undead controller that I mentioned earlier. Even the Reaper class I made gets more, and it’s a tier 1 caster specificly meant to get more undead controlled than a Deathbound Domain Cleric, but less than a dedicated specialist like the DN or your class. Also, @Just to Browse: Just of curiosity, did you look at the Reaper class I linked?

Just to Browse
2018-08-15, 09:30 AM
Yah. I looked back in July, but it didn't feel like it was my style. I'm still spoiled by the Ebon Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388569-Handbook-of-Death-The-Ebon-Initiate-Handbook-(WIP)) because of how well it executes various parts of the "necromancer gish" theme.

Giegue
2018-08-15, 10:48 AM
Yeah, the Reaper is not really meant to do the same thing the Ebon Initatite is though, so comparing the two is kinda unfair. One is a focused tier 3 class that does two things (Necromancy and Melee/martial combat) very well (Ebon Initatite) while the other is a tier 1 generalist that can do those two things and bunch of other things too (Reaper). Each has their own advantages, but they are fundenentally different in how they accomplish their goals and what those goals are. However, I totally understand preferring the Ebon Initate as the Reaper’s status as a tier 1 class is both a blessing and a curse; it makes them the mechanically stronger of the two classes for sure, but does so at the expense of flavor, and likewise not every table or group likes tier 1 classes and what they do to games. Since the Reaper was made specificly to be able to do those tier 1 things while still having its theme, I can understand why some people may prefer the tier 3 alternatives like Ebon Initiate or even Lord of the Uttercold; espcially considering the flavor advantage both those classes have over tier 1 classes like the Reaper due to their tier 3 status keeping “off theme” options to a minimum.

That being said, the class has changed a bit, and is in better shape now than it was upon posting. It’s currently lost a lot of the resistances and immunities it received in favor of having slightly more undead controlled, and some of the key features of the class come online earlier. Either way I love the Ebon Initatite too, and feel that it fills a niche’ my class does not, just like the Reaper occupies different space than the Ebon Initatite.

However, back on the topic of the death sage, I think it works fine if you just increase the undead controlled and change the “spell list” they select their Known spells from to all Necromancy and [evil] spells (mainly for Desecrate access, since for some dumb reason that spell is Evocation and not Necromancy), and any spell from the Wiz/Sorc list not of the transmutation or Illusion school. Also all their spells should be arcane, regardless of what list the come from normally, for both balance (negating possible DMM and Mystic Theurge cheese) and fluff reasons. Yeah, that makes the class more of a generalist, but that’s it’s intended goal in the first place. It’s meant to be a half way point between a true generalist necromancer like a Reaper or Deathbound Cleric, and a true specialist necromancer like an Ebon Initatite or Dread Necromancer. Moving Rebuke Undead down to 1st would not be a bad idea either. With all those changes I think the class fills its goal of being the viable tier 2 mid-ground between the tier 1 generalist necromancer options and tier 3 specialist necromancer options.

Also congrats, you have made me want to make a Reaper/Ebon Initatite Theurge PrC. Good job.

GrayDeath
2018-08-15, 12:04 PM
Slightly modified the Spell Access (a bit wider but not quite "any nonprohibited, that would be too much, 3 schools max is still par tof the concept), and made them all arcane. You are correct, that was to unclear, and since being an inherent THeurge was NOT the plan, unnecessary anyways.


Also added Rebuke at Level 1, added an improving "upgrade" to Animate Dead, and some (still quite experimental, mostly a surge of Inspiration without any testing^^) CLass Only Feats" which I plan to integrate later on.

Giegue
2018-08-15, 02:51 PM
Looks better, but I still don’t think what you get warrants the spell restrictions. Honestly I think the class powers are “weak” enough that you could just give it the standard sorc spells known progression and allow it to select it’s spells known from the Wiz/Sorc list and all [evil] and Necromancy spells (regardless of list), but with the added caviate that you cannot choose an illusion or transmutation spell as a spell known. This eliminates the weird and confusing casting method you have now that may not go down well with some players, while also making its spell selection slightly broader and better off than a Dread Necromancer’s. Right now, with the current spell restrictions the class is no better versatility-wise than a DN, and has “weaker” features than a DN to boot. So I think opening up the entire Wiz/Sorc list except for Illusion and transmutation (while keeping access to Necromancy and [evil] spells from any list) is the right call. Illusion and Transmutation are two of the three strongest schools on the Wiz/Sorc List (the third being conjuration), so losing access to them more than makes up for gaining access to out of list Necromancy and [evil] spells. The undead changes look good, so not much more to say about that.

GrayDeath
2018-08-17, 12:52 PM
Hmmm, thinking about it, you are correct.

Sadly I ahve a huge RPG weekend ahead of me (ok, not sad at all^^) so I`ll get to it once I have finished my VIllainous COmp entries on tuesday.

Dropping the 2 versions I am thinking about now though, and would very much value your feedback on them.

Both can choose the Evil/NEcromancy Spells from everyhwere (9th level Casters only!).

V1: Can choose from the Sorcerer/Wizard List except Illusion and Transmutation, but half their Spells round up (and the first they learn) of each Spell level must be Necromancy.

Pro: Keeps the Focus straight.
Contra. I do not like flat "Must Do ThiS" Rules.


V2: May choose from the Wizard/Sorcerer List, excluding Transmutation and Illusion, but only up to their Second Highest Spell Level.

Pro: Clear, preexistant Rules.

Contra: Less Necromancy Focus overall.

Also, glasd you liked the new Undead Feats.

Do you think limiting their choice to "May be chosen instead of a Feat starting at LEvel 10" would fit powerwise?