Dual-Classing without the Prime Requisites

[BanterDarkdirk]

1e or 2e ad&d

Have you ever run into a scenario where a PC has been invited to join another class (via in-game RP), but just doesn't have the stats to Dual-Class? How have you handled it?

An example: a low level (6th) Magic-User with S10, D13, C11, I13, W12, Ch14 was recently invited by an experienced NPC Ranger to become his apprentice-ranger. The Magic-User PC and the Ranger NPC mesh well (RP-wise) after a series of adventures and the PC's player would like to accept the invitation. Would you let him dual-class into Ranger, even though he clearly doesn't have the stats for it? Would you allow it, but impose an Experience point penalty (since exceptional abilities grant +10% xp...impose -10% xp... because its that much harder for him to be a ranger without the prime requisites)? Say "NO!!!"... since they just weren't "born to be a ranger"?

Just want to see how you'd handle it in your campaigns.

I know way-back-when, that a EGG game had a PC Magic-User transported to another planet/world where magic wouldn't function, and despite only a Str 14, the Magic-User was able to rise to ~12-14th level Fighter and upon returning to his native plane/world/planet, was able to keep both his Magic-User and Fighter levels. I believe it was Erac's Cousin.

Anyways, thank you in advance for the insight!

-Banter Darkdirk

"Stick to the shadows my friend...for the light makes you an easy target."

[Thrudd]

Well, if the DM wants to let that happen, they can. A DM can house rule however they want. If everyone gets the same sort of opportunities, I don't see why anyone would complain about it. I've never done it or see anyone do that.

In a BX/AD&D homebrew I'm thinking about, I'm considering having something like that, in the form of prestige classes that represent certain special organizations, like rangers, paladins and bards. Any class of character would be able to cross over into the prestige class, provided - they are a certain level, have certain abilities and meet in-world requirements like reputation and behavior, and actually interact with and gain the patronage of the group. It would basically be a high-level option for characters not interested in moving into domain and follower managing.

[LibraryOgre]

IMO, dual-classing rules are STUPIDLY rough on humans. Counting Dual-classing as a human advantage is about like counting exceptional strength as a fighter advantage... while it technically is, it's rare enough to qualify for it that it doesn't really help.

So, if a DM wants to let a human dual-class without the stats, I have no argument with that.

[Thrudd]

IMO, dual-classing rules are STUPIDLY rough on humans. Counting Dual-classing as a human advantage is about like counting exceptional strength as a fighter advantage... while it technically is, it's rare enough to qualify for it that it doesn't really help.

So, if a DM wants to let a human dual-class without the stats, I have no argument with that.

I never took it as something that was meant to be an advantage for humans. It is more like an admission that it isn't realistic that a person couldn't possibly learn a new profession in their life - but we really don't want the game to be played like that, so it's going to be prohibitively difficult to qualify for.

The advantage for humans is that they have no level limits and can take classes that are not open to other races.

[LibraryOgre]

I never took it as something that was meant to be an advantage for humans. It is more like an admission that it isn't realistic that a person couldn't possibly learn a new profession in their life - but we really don't want the game to be played like that, so it's going to be prohibitively difficult to qualify for.

The advantage for humans is that they have no level limits and can take classes that are not open to other races.

Something that was pointed out to me: Getting to be a paladin isn't a perk for humans... it doesn't apply to 99% of humans. *Having* to be a human is a *restriction* on a paladin.

[Thrudd]

Something that was pointed out to me: Getting to be a paladin isn't a perk for humans... it doesn't apply to 99% of humans. *Having* to be a human is a *restriction* on a paladin.

That's true. I don't really consider anything about Gygax's AD&D "balanced", anyway.

[LibraryOgre]

That's true. I don't really consider anything about Gygax's AD&D "balanced", anyway.

VERY True. He made nods towards it, but really didn't manage it in any meaningful way.

[Thrudd]

VERY True. He made nods towards it, but really didn't manage it in any meaningful way.

I blame it mostly on the fact that AD&D was basically the working first draft of the entire concept of the RPG, an ongoing playtest that was only a few years old, and it grew out of a much different gaming environment than what developed subsequently. His ideas about what an RPG should or could be were still developing.

[Anonymouswizard]

Maybe instead of dual classing as a Ranger he could dual class as a Fighter who assists wanted to be a Ranger but it's allergic to trees.


Yeah, ability score requirements, both for dual classing and special classes, are the first thing I saw houseruled back when I played AD&D for a bit (this was long before 4e was a thing). Either weakening the requirements or allowing you to raise scores to the minimum needed when starting out, and then whole nobody ever wanted to dual class we never applied any penalty.

[Particle_Man]

If a player initially rolled crap stats but really wanted to play a (single-classed) ranger from the start, would you have let them?

If so, I'd let this 6th level M-U dual-class as a ranger. It is not like they are power-gaming if they *start* as a low hp M-U and then dual-class.

[Jay R]

The DM should relax any requirement if it improves the game for that particular situation.

If it was only a point or two, I'd let them start provisionally, and eventually introduce the right book or wish to buff the stat up.

But in this case, it would taking +2 to Intelligence and +7 to Strength to make it fit within the rules. That is a big difference, so the question is, who does it hurt?

If there are players in the game who wanted to dual-class but couldn't, or wanted to be a Ranger but couldn't, then the DM should not allow it, because it's unfair for those people. [Note that you don't necessarily know if this is true, because somebody who wanted a Ranger and had a 10 STR wouldn't have ever mentioned the impossible Ranger dream.]

In fact, if anybody was pulled away from any goal by his or her character's stats, then you are possibly being unfair.

I would probably try to find a different solution. Could he be trained to be a woods-based wizard, with emphasis on Plant Domain spells or some such? Perhaps he could be given a Ranger follower or henchman (which would actually allow him to play a Ranger on a higher level than he'd be able to by dual-classing, at least for awhile)?

Based on the possibility of unfairness to other players, that's the direction I would try to go.