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The Giant
2006-05-16, 12:48 AM
New comic is up.

Halrin
2006-05-16, 12:49 AM
Oh my! absolutely fiendish giant, a bug zapper, way to end their date horribly like we all predicted ;)

SumGuy
2006-05-16, 12:49 AM
reminds me of Bugs Life...


No Larry! Stay AWAY FROM THE LIGHT!!!

:)

And, the Banjo reference just makes it even better!


holy crap...1st post...my life is complete now, I may as well just never comment again

Jonathan327
2006-05-16, 12:50 AM
wins

mack962289
2006-05-16, 12:50 AM
Great comic. Your work keeps getting better.

Blayde
2006-05-16, 12:50 AM
Now that is funny......

;D

Dugray
2006-05-16, 12:50 AM
Fricking Genious!

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-16, 12:51 AM
*Falls out of chair laughing.*

Sooo preeetty...

Two thumbs up, a great comic as usual. ;D

Bilbo27
2006-05-16, 12:51 AM
love the bug zapper

edit--whoohooo 1st page!!!

wow a top 10 post at that

cool

Lloyd
2006-05-16, 12:51 AM
Oooh, Giant, you evil, evil person you... ruining poor Roy's date like that. Just like we al expected. :P

But honestly, come on man, get back to Haley and Elan!

I... CAN'T.... TAKE THE SUSPENSE.... ANYMORE!!! IS SHE GOING TO KISS HIM OR NOT!!!! AARRRGGGHHH!!!!

*passes out*

Blackeagle
2006-05-16, 12:52 AM
Don't go towards the light, Celia!

I have to say this one literally had me laughing out loud. Way to go Giant!

Bitterbadger
2006-05-16, 12:52 AM
Up, Up, and Away!

This comic is quite cute. It made me giggle with glee. I'm enjoying this detour from "Kill the X" and "Find the MacGuffin."

Character development and romance is quite nice.

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-05-16, 12:52 AM
YES!!!!
*ahem*
*regains composure*
What I meant was... YES!!!

Edit: Obligitory first page woot. (Woot!)

gadren
2006-05-16, 12:53 AM
The first half reminds me of the original Superman movie, 'cept the gender roles are reversed.

RedHillian
2006-05-16, 12:53 AM
Awww - so sweet, and still so funny.

mec
2006-05-16, 12:53 AM
That's great! I didn't even see the magical midnight flight coming ... let alone Celia's Doom!

I think Roy had better initiate a grapple check.

Barazon
2006-05-16, 12:53 AM
Awesome, nice GU reference!

For those of you who don't read it, GU Comics (http://www.gucomics.com) is a wonderful online comic. If you look at the Archives Search Page (http://www.gucomics.com/archives/search.php), you can search for "The Zapper" entries; these are for MMO games that are ... not doing so well.

Archonic Energy
2006-05-16, 12:53 AM
woot first page. balls!

anyway i thought being in the air while fireworks are being let off would be a BAD thing!

CommanderFalken
2006-05-16, 12:55 AM
Oh Ehm Gee that was good. But it didn't have as great a joke as the past few. Still decent, but hey.

"Apparently, there are a few drawbacks"

EDIT: Ye unholy gods you people are fast. Take a few seconds to write a message, theres another page.

The Giant
2006-05-16, 12:56 AM
Celia's Doom!

Unless Celia finds a way to squeeze through the tiny holes in the screen around the zapper, I think she's safe.

TheWanderingLlama
2006-05-16, 12:57 AM
Can't..stop..laughing... I think it was funnier because I was expecting a romantic strip, so this came as a shock.

Edit: Hey I'm right below the Giant's post! It's rather scary that I edited my post just to say that.

JustyUekiTylor
2006-05-16, 01:00 AM
gv gv gv gv gv. That was beautiful. So pretty...

Flak_Razorwill
2006-05-16, 01:00 AM
What is she, half moth? I knew a blonde moment had to creep in eventually.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2006-05-16, 01:00 AM
That is just plain awesome. Rich, I'm going to get your book as soon as I have enough money to buy it, in a vain hope that it will accellerate your comic-making abilities.

It's funny, MY webcomic updates more often than this one...

prettyripples
2006-05-16, 01:00 AM
Another laugh-out-loud strip. For me, the strips have been excellent over the last week or two.

I think the reason is that there's some kind of joke at the end of every strip, lately. You've been doing character development & plot well for a while, but this is (I think) meant to be a humorous comic as well, and it's simply more enjoyable if there's a good joke at the end.

Both the 'bla' and the moth to a flame were great.

Screech
2006-05-16, 01:01 AM
I didnt even see that coming i almost fell of my chair Laughing. HaHa

Thats always been a favorate joke about the bug zapper and it being so pretty!

keep up the great work. 8)

AtomicKitKat
2006-05-16, 01:02 AM
Heh. And here I thought Roy was going for Club Membership... :-/

Felinoid
2006-05-16, 01:03 AM
Heheh. I'm surprised that Roy was so calm when he opened his eyes, though I suppose he must have felt what she was doing (so it wouldn't exactly be a surprise). I imagine the wing-beating she had to do to get the both of them aloft would have been rather audible, as well.

And for some odd reason, I can't help thinking that this is a moment of Elan-ness on Celia's part. :P Maybe it's just the look on Roy's face that has almost always been associated with Elan in some way or another. ;)

Also wondering if the comment about Elan is simply a continuation of the conversation to that point. After all, there'd be more than enough Elan fodder for an entire long dinner conversation. That would really suck for Celia, though; it's not exactly date material.

ShadeMoon64
2006-05-16, 01:03 AM
Great as always!
"Dating outside creature type" just floored me! ;D
Page 2!!

saraswati
2006-05-16, 01:03 AM
I did like the comment about being a person, not just a class/race alignment combo. That made me laugh more than anything I guess. Wait, except for the swirly circles in Celia's eyes. Nope! Snarf! the swirlies made me laugh the most.

Celia's pretty darn strong!

I hope the attraction to light will come back as a throwaway joke later :P

Alfryd
2006-05-16, 01:04 AM
New comic is up.
Komm, Wodenstag. I feel germanic today!

Skyserpent
2006-05-16, 01:07 AM
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee>ZAP<

kriklaf
2006-05-16, 01:07 AM
Ow...my sides really hurt. Oh. My. God! By far the funniest one-liner strip yet. I'm literally crying, here. Awesome comic!

Lord_Jadawin
2006-05-16, 01:07 AM
I found the quote from Roy about feeling like a person to be particularly poignant, since a month or so ago I honestly thought he was being set up to be killed off (not that that still couldn't happen). At the time I was thinking that, he had just finished going off on his dad, not only had any chance of a relationship with Miko gone out the window but she was ready to slaughter the party, and the Order was in semi-shambles. I was wondering what he really had to live for at that point besides duty. Nice job restoring him to humanity, Giant.

Fillbert
2006-05-16, 01:08 AM
Oooohhhh Preeeety!!!!! Loved the twist Giant... keep up the good work!

roguemomof7
2006-05-16, 01:12 AM
;D Ah, well, there's always something to work out in a relationship!

Great comic as always, I laugh out loud every time (almost!). Have to admit this comic takes me back to when I was just out of high school and a bunch of us science-fiction-convention-goers and medieval-reenactment-roleplayers would get together and play DnD (when it was NEW, folks, cackle cackle). Nice to be back (seven kids later, thanks to my net-head everquest-addicted sons!).

Can't wait for the next comic!

Behold_the_Void
2006-05-16, 01:18 AM
That was terribly adorable. And extremely amusing. Well done!

sun_tzu
2006-05-16, 01:19 AM
Awww...
Loved the "feeling like a person again" bit. Well, actually, I liked the whole thing, but that part stood out.
And I wouldn't really call this "a horrible end to the date", like a few people said. This is merely a minor annoyance.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2006-05-16, 01:24 AM
I don't think i've ever laughed harder

Shadow_of_Light
2006-05-16, 01:25 AM
Another person you got laughing out loud. :D Thank you. Beautiful work, as always.

6079smithw
2006-05-16, 01:25 AM
On the one hand it feels like there have been a lot of 'plot/character development until the last panel, followed by a quick punchline' format strips lately. On the other hand, they've pretty much all been really good punchlines, and the plot bits are interesting/compelling/heartwarming.

In conclusion, great job.

Master_Kindel
2006-05-16, 01:25 AM
Unless Celia finds a way to squeeze through the tiny holes in the screen around the zapper, I think she's safe.

haha! well said

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-05-16, 01:35 AM
Can't..stop..laughing... I think it was funnier because I was expecting a romantic strip, so this came as a shock.

Pun alert. ;D
Gotta ask: was that intended?

Overelemental
2006-05-16, 01:38 AM
Heh, that was funny :)

Bakta
2006-05-16, 01:42 AM
HARUMPH,

Now this comic deserve an in-depth analisys in the Freudian sense.

Is Ron a close....OOOOOOHHHHHHhhhh pretty light


>ZAP!<

Nighthawk4
2006-05-16, 01:43 AM
Very funny once again.

I would never have guessed an ending like that. :D

Plus the Banjo reference of course. ;)

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-05-16, 01:44 AM
*guffaws*

I don't comment on the strips often, but this'un is worth it. Gotta love it ;D

Arturius
2006-05-16, 01:50 AM
....how is she able to lift Roy? Those stick arms must hide the muscles ;)

Oolong
2006-05-16, 01:50 AM
I'm not the only one who was expecting Celia to turn into Sabine and either drop Roy from a mile up or rip his heart out, am I?

Hithrome
2006-05-16, 02:08 AM
*snort* OK, I have to be careful here, my wife just went to bed and I don't want to wake her, but this just about had me bursts out laughing.

Beautiful bait-and-switch. It's touching, it's romantic, it's about to turn into something beautiful, and then you hit us with the bug-zapper. Nice nice.

I thought when she had him close his eyes she was going to give him some "fireworks" by kissing him. This was WAY better.

Many many kudos to the Giant!

Solmage
2006-05-16, 02:21 AM
OMG Soooo funny! Wish it weren't the middle of the night when I'm laughing outloud 8)

Well, at least now Roy knows how to summon Celia whenever he needs her, heh.


Edit to say: Page 4! There aren't like a zillion messages before me! I guess the traditional expression is.. Woot? ;)

xyzchyx
2006-05-16, 02:23 AM
....how is she able to lift Roy? Those stick arms must hide the muscles ;)She's not lifting roy with her arms, she's lifting him with her wings. She's only holding him up with her arms which is a completely different thing. After all, carrying a weight doesn't require anywhere even close to the same amount of strength as pressing the same weight. But that still means those dainty little sylph wings must have have a lot more oomph to them than what one would expect.

(Although a sylph's flight ability could be aided by magic as well, in which case it would require no more effort to lift her weight and roy's than to just lift her own).

Arian
2006-05-16, 02:25 AM
Also wondering if the comment about Elan is simply a continuation of the conversation to that point. After all, there'd be more than enough Elan fodder for an entire long dinner conversation. That would really suck for Celia, though; it's not exactly date material.

Why not? Roy tells a funny story, Celia laughs in sympathy, Roy laughs as well... a shared sense of humour is a promising thing for a relationship.

(Are there things you're Meant To talk about on a date, are there? Someone should have told me, before I wasted all that time talking about things that the fellow and I were interested in! ;) )

Nikolai_II
2006-05-16, 02:26 AM
I'm not the only one who was expecting Celia to turn into Sabine and either drop Roy from a mile up or rip his heart out, am I?

Uumm... yes - I think it was only you :P

grim_chook
2006-05-16, 02:27 AM
That was a fantastic twist on a classic moment.

Fantastic Comic (I think if you look really closely you can see the bug-zapper flicker!) :o

A_Gray_Phantom
2006-05-16, 02:33 AM
Oooh, Giant, you evil, evil person you... ruining poor Roy's date like that. Just like we al expected. :P

But honestly, come on man, get back to Haley and Elan!

I... CAN'T.... TAKE THE SUSPENSE.... ANYMORE!!! IS SHE GOING TO KISS HIM OR NOT!!!! AARRRGGGHHH!!!!

*passes out*
I liked it. I thought it was funny :). These last few posts have been all about dinner dates. I'm really interested in Miko's meditations, though. She seems to be having a sumo-religious moment. Kinda cool, I think! I'm into that sort of thing, so naturally I'd have a interest in that sort of entertainment.

"I can't help it, its so beautiful :o!!"

KayJay
2006-05-16, 02:48 AM
To quote Roy:
"Looks like this could be the end of our hero, folks!"

Also, panel 5 seems to have that transparent dress thing going again :)

theKOT
2006-05-16, 02:48 AM
So suffocatingly cutesy... Blargh. Where is that promised "change of pace"? Things have been moving vvvveeerrrryyyy slowly. I really hope something interesting happens soon. I haven't liked a comic since 309.

RecurringDream
2006-05-16, 02:53 AM
[incessant girly giggle] Damn it, Rich! I don't giggle girly-like! look what you've made me do! ;)

I swear I've been on both sides of that date. Except I don't actually have wings. C'est tres amusant. It's enough to make one wonder what *else* a girl with wings could do differently...

0:)

Gregpooh
2006-05-16, 03:10 AM
She seems to be having a sumo-religious moment.

*Ponders the bizzare mental imagery brought about by this misspelling*

Large Japaneese men in diapers speaking in tongues perhaps? :o

turkishproverb
2006-05-16, 03:12 AM
Must......go towards......the light...

5tephen
2006-05-16, 03:19 AM
Tee hee!

I am really enjoying Roy's character development.
See: Not all Character Development has to hurt- some can be fun!

Antina
2006-05-16, 03:26 AM
"Soooo pretty..." what a contrast to the romance before LOL
What a strip!
Sooo great - must go to the giant-page - must seek out new hillarious comic

;D

Ravens_Wing
2006-05-16, 03:29 AM
YAY! New Strip!

LOL No Celia Stay Away From the Light!!!

Awsome strip! ;D

Glorfindel
2006-05-16, 03:38 AM
Very nice again!

To speak with Celia: fail enough Will saves and you might end up being zapped ;)

Tekar
2006-05-16, 03:42 AM
Ah, this one actually put a smile on my face again. A bit absurd and that's the way I like them.

HabbakukUnknown
2006-05-16, 03:42 AM
Go...towards...the...light....

don't....go....

nooooo!!!!!

ha ha, awesome comic. Roy, fall far.

Devils_Advocate
2006-05-16, 03:46 AM
I'm guessing that Celia's flight must be magical in part. Her wings don't really look like they should even be able to support her, so in retrospect it's obvious. (Non-magical flight isn't possible with a medium or heavy load, right?)

I like Roy's and Celia's comments to the effect that a real character is more than just a stat block. So true.

Messenger
2006-05-16, 03:48 AM
"Thank you. You know, for the first time in- I don't know how long, I feel like a person again, and not just a class/race alignment combo."

As both a spoof of D&D and a serious, story-driven comic strip, that is some heavy piece of work. That is the best line I've read in a long time, easily competing with great and memorable literature. :)

Great work, Giant!

Lauren
2006-05-16, 03:56 AM
Another comic that manages to be both sweet and giggle-inducing. Well done Giant!

CatBoris
2006-05-16, 04:17 AM
*chuckle*

"Can you read my mind SuperCelia?"

The Glitter Ninja
2006-05-16, 04:31 AM
Such a sweet strip. The moths are a hoot. Don't go into the light, indeed.

IRSWalker
2006-05-16, 04:51 AM
If they ever make the OOTS movie, this is the strip that'll have the girls (and the guys trying to prove to the girls that they're sensitive and caring) blubbing in the aisles.

Let's hope no Disney lawyers are watching! :)

Adeptus
2006-05-16, 04:56 AM
I'm guessing that Celia's flight must be magical in part. Her wings don't really look like they should even be able to support her, so in retrospect it's obvious. (Non-magical flight isn't possible with a medium or heavy load, right?)

I like Roy's and Celia's comments to the effect that a real character is more than just a stat block. So true.

In Earthlike gravity / air density the maximum weight of a creature flying by muscle power is about 10 kg.

Basically every fantasy flyer is using magic in some form or another.

LostInBrittany
2006-05-16, 05:13 AM
WODERFUL!!!

I really love it. Too cute, too funny!

Xarian
2006-05-16, 05:22 AM
Hehehe...

That is SO Roy... every time something good is happening, it's topped off with a nice zap.

Poor kid.

Sir_Rosh
2006-05-16, 05:23 AM
Let's hope no Disney lawyers are watching! :)

Could anyone else hear "A Whole New World" in the background for this strip? I think it probably is just me.

Great strip as always Giant! You da man!

Freelance Henchman
2006-05-16, 05:32 AM
Loads of cuteness followed by a real "omg lol!" moment in the last panel! Hurray for the Giant!

DarkCorax
2006-05-16, 05:54 AM
lol ^^ great lets hope Celia doesn't go "Zapp" otherwise there may be problems for Roy.

...and why is there a bug zapper 200ft above Azure City?

Great Comic Giant ;D

Morchaint
2006-05-16, 05:57 AM
great comic, so cute.

and that last panel. I laughed out loud. really loud.
:D

...So..pretty...
:P

Vargtass
2006-05-16, 06:17 AM
Could anyone else hear "A Whole New World" in the background for this strip? I think it probably is just me.


I think it's closer to My heart will go on, although that would (in the OotSiverse) be classified as cruel and unusal punishment. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=258

CelestialStick
2006-05-16, 06:40 AM
I imagine the wing-beating she had to do to get the both of them aloft would have been rather audible, as well.

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen Celia? ;D

Pantler
2006-05-16, 06:41 AM
Accidentally, while reading this comic I was listening to Michael Buble singing "Come fly with me" :D
Love it... But somehow I believe the date's not over... Roy still might be happy with the outcome - especially when he saves Celia :)

gunnerjohn
2006-05-16, 06:41 AM
Ha, got to read it before my son :D. Great lead in to the hilarious punchline frame.

Delgarde
2006-05-16, 07:05 AM
In Earthlike gravity / air density the maximum weight of a creature flying by muscle power is about 10 kg.

How's that worked out? The balance of lifting power versus weight of muscle/bone required to achieve that power?

I assume most of the birds of that size are gliders like a condor, with huge wing area and only the minimum muscle they need to take off.

Kanashimi
2006-05-16, 07:18 AM
okay, so the first part was totally cute and romantic.... then the romance apparently got bug zapped as well!

Great comic, Giant.

WNxArrakis
2006-05-16, 07:24 AM
That was completely great.. the magic moments.. and the punchline.

Good job Giant :D

Pelziges_Ohr
2006-05-16, 07:26 AM
Hehe,

its really funny how roys face changes from "I'm the happiest flying fighter in the world" over "Huh? What's going on" to "I should have expected something like this".

He isn't even terrified. Looks more like he's bored of getting in such situations. ;D

Elephant
2006-05-16, 07:29 AM
She's not lifting roy with her arms, she's lifting him with her wings. She's only holding him up with her arms which is a completely different thing. After all, carrying a weight doesn't require anywhere even close to the same amount of strength as pressing the same weight. But that still means those dainty little sylph wings must have have a lot more oomph to them than what one would expect.

(Although a sylph's flight ability could be aided by magic as well, in which case it would require no more effort to lift her weight and roy's than to just lift her own).


Yeah, it's magical. There's NO WAY those tiny little wings could hold even an eagle aloft, much less two human-sized creatures.

Aiani
2006-05-16, 07:35 AM
Aw that was both cute and funny all at once. I am really liking Roy and Celia together.

Lightman
2006-05-16, 07:36 AM
God damned best comic evar!

netherworlder
2006-05-16, 07:49 AM
Intentional or not, there is also a nice reference to the old Encyclopeida Brown books (anybody else read these when they were a kid?).

I remember one where there was an "authentic" photograph of the moon, but a star was visible where the disk of the moon should have blocked it out. This let E.B. solve the mystery. Look at pannel 8 again. If you finished the circle suggested by the curve of the crescent moon, one star should be behind the moon.

Pretty cool, especially if it was an intentional reference.

bosssmiley
2006-05-16, 07:54 AM
Romance! Magic! Bug zappers! #315 had everything a body needs. ;D

That is the first OOTS which has managed to elicit an audible "auuuh" from both me and my gf.

Veg Sorbet
2006-05-16, 07:57 AM
Brilliant!
Hilarious and totally unexpected last pannel - I was still laughing two pages through this thread!

Blaznak
2006-05-16, 08:24 AM
Awww. too cute...

Yes, but how IS that star showing where the moon should be?

And what IS a bug zapper doing up that high?

VERRRRYYY Interesting...

Hyrael
2006-05-16, 08:27 AM
As for the whole "wing size/lifting capacity ratio" thing, She has to be magic-assisted. not only is the too big to ever fly under he own power, those arent eagle wings, theyre friggin butterfly wings. Dont quote me on thins, but I think that butterfly wings are somewhat inefficient, and are a bit of a cobbled together system that allows insects to travel great distances with less effort.

OzymandiasVolt
2006-05-16, 08:38 AM
*snrk* hahahahahaha...ah man, that's hilarious.

Kanashimi
2006-05-16, 08:46 AM
Wow, I just realized that Celia's dress must be on really really tight. Any time I've worn an apron front dress like that and gone to pick up anything bigger than my purse I've had to be careful not to give everyone around me a free show! And I'm sure Roy is no light load there!

NullAshton
2006-05-16, 09:02 AM
Hehe, and I have to insert a rules related comment...

Roy would have to be a light load for Celia, if she is to carry him. Creatures with a flying speed can only fly if they have a light load or less. Of course, Roy doesn't have his armor on, so that's probally a lot less weight... Hey, I just thought of a spoiler!

Drerek
2006-05-16, 09:09 AM
That last panel is so wrong on so many levels, but oh oh oh so funny.

Silencer
2006-05-16, 09:30 AM
So, is Roy Greenhilt in for a shock?

armatil
2006-05-16, 09:34 AM
so... pretty...

;D

suberb comic!

fithi
2006-05-16, 09:36 AM
Loved the comic, Giant!

Here's hoping the date doesn't end on a bad note.

nagora
2006-05-16, 09:37 AM
Dont quote me on thins, but I think that butterfly wings are somewhat inefficient, and are a bit of a cobbled together system that allows insects to travel great distances with less effort.

I'm sorry; I'm going to quote you on that: "Inefficient" and "allows insects to travel great distances with less effort."?

As to the star behind the moon: perhaps that's the shape of the moon on this world!

Rastil
2006-05-16, 10:07 AM
Excellent work Giant. Now if only there was a 6 pack. That would have made an excellent redneck joke.

Xenon
2006-05-16, 10:36 AM
bugzapper? downer. but at least shes going to be easy to buy for. just get things with pretty lights in them :)

TinSoldier
2006-05-16, 10:43 AM
I liked the strip but I didn't find the bug zapper that funny.

Roy's comments about being a person instead of a class/alignment combo and dating outside his creature type were good, though.

At first I thought Roy and Celia were going to see something dangerous headed for the city in the last panel. So I was a little jarred to find out it was a punchline. It's not that I didn't like it. It just wasn't as lol as I see some people saying.

While I've really enjoyed the plot/character development and romance strips, I'm kind of with theKot in that I'm ready for some action!

Zargon
2006-05-16, 11:33 AM
For the comment " In Earthlike gravity / air density the maximum weight of a creature flying by muscle power is about 10 kg."

"Quetzalcoatlus was a flying reptile whose wing-span was just under 36 feet wide (10.96 m). It was the largest flying animal ever found. It had hollow bones, was lightly built, and had a small body. Even though it was very big, it probably weighed only about 300 pounds (135 kg)."
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/dinos/Quetzalcoatlus.shtml

Anyway, in a magical setting with the wings on many creatures being much too small or weak looking, (especially for a magic using creature!), the wings would likely be for movement control and inate magic would be to counter gravity (like levitation). If the inate magic was like the fly spell instead of levitation, I would think that the wings would be fairly useless in most cases.

edit: hmmm... cast Anti-magic is one way to find out!

"Ooooo!" ... last words

battleburn
2006-05-16, 11:47 AM
One question, why do they start flying when midnight, and acompanying fireworks, are about to start. I think the flycatcher is the least painfull way out. Much better than having a few of those fireworks hit you.

Illsbane
2006-05-16, 12:09 PM
Hmyeah ... The bugzapper was kind of anticlimactic for me. The comic could have done without it; it had a very nice atmosphere ... although to be fair, Roy's comment about dating outside his creature type soured it a bit - for me - already.

...

How'd a bugzapper that big even get up above the city? ???

garylian
2006-05-16, 12:16 PM
I'll admit it... I didn't see the bug light coming!

Another great comic, Giant. Keep this up, and I'm going to be drooling about new comics more than my baby does!

Spanxxx
2006-05-16, 12:17 PM
Okay, that made for a great chuckle this morning. Just classic. Poor Roy.

BelkarsDagger
2006-05-16, 12:51 PM
Best comic I've read in a loooooong time.

"So...pretty..." ;D

Definitely didnt see the light coming lol.

Eriol
2006-05-16, 01:10 PM
As to the star behind the moon: perhaps that's the shape of the moon on this world!
That's the RP "out" you can give... but still, seems like an error rather than deliberate.

saraswati
2006-05-16, 01:23 PM
At first I thought Roy and Celia were going to see something dangerous headed for the city in the last panel.

That could still happen, as of the end of this strip they are still up in the air. Of course, only Roy may be paying attention.

sniffles
2006-05-16, 01:35 PM
OMG!!! I'm sitting here at work with my hand over my mouth trying not to draw attention to myself by laughing out loud!

:D :D :D :D

Neopolis
2006-05-16, 01:36 PM
I've noticed people on this board seem to laugh out loud very easily... Not calling the giants work bad of course, but not all comics make me laugh out loud. In fact, only few comics appeal to my... unique sense of humor. I like most of them, but I rarely laugh out loud.

Enough of that, the comic was cool. Character development is a good thing. Why is there a bug-zapper at that height anyway?

Hithrome
2006-05-16, 01:37 PM
"Thank you. You know, for the first time in- I don't know how long, I feel like a person again, and not just a class/race alignment combo."

And this, in my experience, is the entire *point* of roleplaying. I've been playing D&D since the original boxed set (like many of you, I'm sure) including all of its various iterations. I've played probably most of the mechanical systems out there and it all comes down to this. The system is irrelevent for roleplaying.

My friend is fond of saying "They can't make a system that will keep me from roleplaying." (Although Chivalry and Sorcery came close because character creation was so lengthy you didn't have time to actually play.)

I think these stories that the Giant is currently doing essentially mean that the OotS GM is changing the style of his campaign from generic hack-and-slash to a more character-driven one. He's maturing as a gamer just the way Rich is maturing as a storyteller.

I love this comic, it's got everything: Humor, romance, tragedy, humor (yeah, there's extra humor), violence, anger, friendship, everything. And I'd like to say that I appreciate all of the elements that this comic strip and the story it's telling have. And I think that those of you who are unhappy because there's "not enough stabbity" are missing out on a lot that Rich and life have to offer. But then, I'm glad that you at least get to enjoy that part of it.

OK, back to the subject. When your character exists as an entity that is controlled by his past and his feelings rather than his stats and his abilities, then you're roleplaying. I'm glad these characters are that. AND that they can still poke fun at the rules of the mechanics that govern the universe around them. Because those are the funniest strips.

I don't really know why I felt the desire to pontificate on this right now. But I did, and there you have it. Thanks for your patience and your attention. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of OotS #315, still in progress...

Krytha
2006-05-16, 02:08 PM
The date ends with a surprise SHOCKER!! AAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! Haa. Ha.. ha.....
*runs far away and behind a rock*

Zalathar
2006-05-16, 02:25 PM
Cute, but not the best ever. I really do like the more serious romantic stuff, and the blatant bug zapper joke just wasn't the subtle LOL I usually get from Giant's stuff.

Decent gag, but gag's aren't what I read Giant for. Overall though, I love ya Giant I typically get two to three Bwahaha's per strip.

Valda, Adlav and Samiam: the Jacked-Up Trinity
2006-05-16, 03:46 PM
Hmmm... Interesting. This strip demonstrates one of the things I love most about OoTS. Frequent Gratuitous Fourth-Wall Breakage. And anachronisms. I like big words :P.

Anyhoo...

I'm still wanting to see what Nale, Thog, Sabine and Pompey are up to.

me want Linear Guild!

Nerd-o-rama
2006-05-16, 04:02 PM
Ah. Like Superman, only so much better.

*waits for someone to nitpick the weight/encumberance rules as they relate to flight.*

*sees someone has already done so with real world physics*

*is not surprised*

Adeptus
2006-05-16, 04:26 PM
How's that worked out? The balance of lifting power versus weight of muscle/bone required to achieve that power?

I assume most of the birds of that size are gliders like a condor, with huge wing area and only the minimum muscle they need to take off.

The simple version is that muscle power increases in relation to thickness of the mucle (that is, to the second power) and weight increases to the third power.

At around 10 kg we reach a point where a winged creature is unable to generate enough power for liftoff. Gliders can be heavier, and the largest burds are almost pure gliders.

For a visualization of this think of a small songbird that can just spring in the air and zoom up into the sky at a steep angle. Then think of a large swan that has to run on the surface of the lake for a very long time before ponderously taking to the air and very slowly gaining height.

It's the same with land animals too. Think of a squirrel zooming up a tree and then think of a silverback gorilla doing the same. The climging isn't a significant effort for the tiny gorilla, but the absurdly strong gorilla, that is all muscle, has to use all his strength to climb.

Adeptus
2006-05-16, 04:35 PM
Ah. Like Superman, only so much better.

*waits for someone to nitpick the weight/encumberance rules as they relate to flight.*

*sees someone has already done so with real world physics*

*is not surprised*

No fair. It wasn't a nitpick from anybody. It was speculation. There's a difference.

Melnor
2006-05-16, 04:53 PM
Haha, Giant, that last comic was so awesome.
...I want to date outside my species!
I think a nymph would do nicely....

AyuVince
2006-05-16, 05:10 PM
I think a nymph would do nicely....

You know that looking at nymphs makes you blind? Unless she's naked, then you'd have to roll Fortitude or die instantly.

Woot 9th page! (I'm a sorry sod, I know) Celia is really strong. Lifting that muscle-packed fighter and carrying him through the air... love it.

Kilbia
2006-05-16, 05:20 PM
Yes, I signed up just to snark at people!

Everyone who's wondering how a bug zapper got up that high, take a look at the lower right corner of that panel. You can see the slope of a roof. Celia has been flying *downward* toward the light, it's that tempting. :)

Durin
2006-05-16, 05:34 PM
Haha, Giant, that last comic was so awesome.
...I want to date outside my species!
I think a nymph would do nicely....

yeah fairly sure dating a hot ass nymph chick would make my day though I imagine they might be a little uptight

HypnoticMonk
2006-05-16, 05:48 PM
LOL another great one

(and as someone who makes more than a few $$$ as a hypnotist, this strip really make me chuckle on Many levels )

Eviltrixx
2006-05-16, 06:15 PM
Rich definately got XP for killing that romantic moment...

Quetzi
2006-05-16, 06:22 PM
I thought that was pretty horrible. A good story based comic, admittedly without any jokes in it, and it could've remained such, as not all comics need jokes. But no, Rich had to go for the cheap humor at the end. That wasn't necessary at all, and the comic would've been much better as just a romantic story element.

xyzchyx
2006-05-16, 06:35 PM
(sigh) You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but... well, you know.

Kinneus
2006-05-16, 06:54 PM
I thought it was cute, but I hope Roy's disappointment in the last panel wasn't genuine. I want to see him and Celia together, sort of like how I wanted to see his sword reforged... he's a cool guy, and as a reader, I'm honestly hoping things start going right for him.
Also, I'm holding out for some hawt stick-figure pr0n.
I kid, I kid.

fenir
2006-05-16, 06:59 PM
Very good, quite hilarious as well. It just keeps getting better, keep it up Giant.

DASLAYARGH
2006-05-16, 07:01 PM
I always wanted to fly... except now. Good comic and i'll make sure there aren't any of those lights when i take off!

Renrik
2006-05-16, 07:09 PM
I cannot wait until wednesday

Ted_Stryker
2006-05-16, 07:25 PM
I have to admit I was pretty nonplussed with the strip.

I'm starting to find it a bit unfortunate that the 2 strips/week thing happened during the date scenes. It's R-E-A-L-L-Y slowed down the story, or maybe it would be more fair to say it's slowed down the part of the plot I was most interested in. I realize the timing of sudden busy-ness can't be helped, but I thought the story was really gathering momentum, and now that momentum has (to me) seemed to have abruptly stopped.

molonel
2006-05-16, 07:45 PM
Rich, I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of people are going to criticize me for saying this. A lot of folks are going to say, "It's a free comic. You have no right to complain."

But your comic has started to suck.

You don't update very often. And when you update, it's not worth reading. This is getting painful. Remember, Rich: it's the internet. We're not going to come back and keep reading this crap forever.

Get back to the damn story.

You and I both know that this is not a free comic, no matter what the flunkies say. You make money from advertising. You make money from the products you sell through the website. And through the readership you built up through this comic, you sell books. You cannot continue this downward spiral, and I hope you know that.

Sincerely,

A reader who cares.

TinSoldier
2006-05-16, 07:59 PM
Must...not...respond...to...trolls!

Damn. Failed my Will Save.


But your comic has started to suck.

Get back to the damn story.

You and I both know that this is not a free comic, no matter what the flunkies say. You make money from advertising. You make money from the products you sell through the website. And through the readership you built up through this comic, you sell books. You cannot continue this downward spiral, and I hope you know that.You are entitled to your opinion. I doubt if you will read this. I have certainly been somewhat critical of this comic as well.

But it most certainly does not "suck".

Please point out any advertising to me. I don't see it. (Looks again). Nope. No advertising. Free comic.

molonel
2006-05-16, 08:08 PM
Must...not...respond...to...trolls!

A troll just wants to piss people off. That is their only purpose. It is not merely someone who posts something which you don't like, or disagree with.

I am not a troll. I dislike the way the comic is going, and the quality feels poor.

This is a private forum, and privately funded. Either the moderators or the owner can delete my posts at their leisure. That is their right.

But I am most certainly not trolling. I have enjoyed this comic for a long time, and read every single one.


You are entitled to your opinion. I doubt if you will read this. I have certainly been somewhat critical of this comic as well. But it most certainly does not "suck".

That is also your opinion. I respectfully disagree.


Please point out any advertising to me. I don't see it. (Looks again). Nope. No advertising. Free comic.

You haven't noticed links to a website called Cafe Press, or Paizo.com?

theKOT
2006-05-16, 08:24 PM
More proof of the "can't please everyone" theory. People had the same reaction after the plot really settled into the Miko/courtroom phase. Now that the plot has shifted, or shall I say disappeared for the sake of character development, readers are once again unhappy.


Let me say I think this current arc is slow, boring, and schmultzy. Haley is moving at about an inch a minute, while Roy's date seems to be strip after strip of overly-cutesy ways of saying "Roy and Celia are happy together".

However, I think much of my dislike is actually stemming from three things:
1. The conversion to two a week has made it feel slower, so that bit is blown slightly out of proportion.
2. The things the Giant is writing on are difficult to fully yet concisely express through a comic, and I think he is struggling a bit with it.
3. Lastly, my subconcious REALLY misses Miko, and it also feels sad for her due to Roy+Celia. So that probably is a factor as well.

So, to wrap it all up, I reiterate: you can't please everybody.

Ted_Stryker
2006-05-16, 08:32 PM
However, I think much of my dislike is actually stemming from three things:
1. The conversion to two a week has made it feel slower, so that bit is blown slightly out of proportion.
No doubt this is part of it, and as I said before, I personally find it particularly unfortunate that the shift to 2 strips/week happened during the dates.

I fully understand that it's part of the characters' development, and that a lot of people like it, but it hasn't grabbed me nearly the same way as the revelations in the trial did, and thinking about where these revelations will lead, plot-wise.

carmachu
2006-05-16, 08:35 PM
So any cirtisism of Rich and/or the comic is automatic trolling?

Wow, thats silly. I have to agree with Mol.and theKot.

I've enjoyed it for 300 odd comics, but lately, bewteen the EXTEMELY late posting of comics, the cut back to twice a week, and the not-so-good story arc here of love between roy and the winged chick, and haley and banjo boy, well its defiantely sliding more towards suckage than it is towards "must read"

Getting on with the actually story would be nice, rather than these minor side lines. Its like when you players run rampant with an off plotline issue for 3-6 game nights and side tracks the adventure forever.

Winged One
2006-05-16, 08:41 PM
A wonderful anticlimax. ;D

TinSoldier
2006-05-16, 09:00 PM
A troll just wants to piss people off. That is their only purpose. It is not merely someone who posts something which you don't like, or disagree with.

I am not a troll. I dislike the way the comic is going, and the quality feels poor.

But I am most certainly not trolling. I have enjoyed this comic for a long time, and read every single one.
Okay. I apologize for calling you a troll. Another aspect of trolls that I have noticed are ones who login a few short times and leave. Maybe it's because they get mad at being called 'troll' ;) !


You haven't noticed links to a website called Cafe Press, or Paizo.com?I didn't consider those advertising. The Giant is advertising his own stuff here. So maybe the terminology isn't perfect. I thought that you meant "external advertising from sources only tangentially related to The Order of the Stick".

I actually think that it is okay to criticize the comic. I really like OotS but I'm trying not to be a fanboy. I reserve my fanboyism for Goblins.

I usually respect well-thought-out criticism but yours just came across rather flame-ish. That's why I made the troll accusation. Again, my apologies and I hope to see you participate more in the forums.

Edit: Oh, and I basically agree. While I have enjoyed the romance strips I am most definitely ready for the story to move forward. I think these strips will work better in a book form.

Dirigible
2006-05-16, 09:24 PM
I don't find it surprising that molonel got called a troll right away. Obviously any board dedicated to the fandom of a piece is going to be somewhat reactionary to any criticism of the product that they love.

I think the strip has come a long way from its roots, and I think it's lost some of what I loved.

It seemed the first few hundred strips were about D&D and the humor in that was directed at the system, and those who know it.

Maybe it's a natural happening in any long running series. It seems every comic/show/book eventually becomes not so much about the setting/story, and more about the characters and their personal lives. Some people like that, obviously. Others, like molonel it seems, and myself, don't.

I'm trying to state it in a way that doesn't sound like yet another fan wishing for the good ol' days, but there it is.

luilupino
2006-05-16, 09:31 PM
Just to clear things:
Does The Giant get XP for destroying the climax like that ?

molonel
2006-05-16, 09:32 PM
Okay. I apologize for calling you a troll.

No harm, no foul.



I didn't consider those advertising. The Giant is advertising his own stuff here. So maybe the terminology isn't perfect. I thought that you meant "external advertising from sources only tangentially related to The Order of the Stick".

To be fair, if I'd MEANT "external advertising from sources only tangentially related to The Order of the Stick" I would have said so. Instead, I said simply, "advertising."

redmind0
2006-05-16, 09:48 PM
What a dissapointment. I feel that this comic is below par which supprised me. I expected to see a very high quality comic as The G in the big P is wrighting only two a week but instead it looked rushed.

Soul_Selim
2006-05-16, 09:51 PM
You, Sir, Win at the Internet.

I have my own ideas and spoilers, but I won't annouce them, because of the fact that thier stupid. But this one is pretty good.

Taking a piece from LOTR, The fireworks are like dragons... and one of them looks like a lich is riding on one....

skaven13
2006-05-16, 10:32 PM
Unless Celia finds a way to squeeze through the tiny holes in the screen around the zapper, I think she's safe.

Just when I was going to start looking through my DMG for the CR of the dreaded bug zapper trap. ;D

Keep up the good work!

Rowanomicon
2006-05-16, 10:46 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say the comic is sucking, but I would like it to get back to the story line and I definitely think that it it at it's best when making D&D jokes. It is, after all, a D&D based comic. I find it funniest when the PCs are metagaming, however I know that "I think I failed a spot check..." then the goblin nijas "WE'RE RIGHT HERE!" (Sorry, that's probably a misquote.) wont stay funny forever... alright it will, but he can't do it over and over again.

TinSoldier
2006-05-16, 10:47 PM
Well, it was funny when Roy said he felt more like a person than a class/alignment combo.

Durin
2006-05-16, 10:48 PM
*looks at molonel then at Tinsoldier then back to molonel*

Durin like Puppies

Nightfall
2006-05-16, 10:50 PM
Don't go towards the light, Celia!

I have to say this one literally had me laughing out loud. Way to go Giant!


Me too! So funny!

Shadow_of_Light
2006-05-17, 12:27 AM
At the end of the day, it's the Giant's story. Can't he do with it what he wants? Or is he supposed to 'owe us' because we're favouring him and his comic with our attention?


You and I both know that this is not a free comic, no matter what the flunkies say. You make money from advertising. You make money from the products you sell through the website. And through the readership you built up through this comic, you sell books. You cannot continue this downward spiral, and I hope you know that.

Of course he makes money from the products he sells. :p Those are, however, material items. I don't know about the advertising itself. Seems a bit odd if he's just advertising himself (so he's paying himself for advertising?).

Anyway, not everyone who reads OotS comics he posts online has bought one of his products, or given him a cent.

OotS, like many other online arts, writings or games, is a labour of love. Being able to make a living from it is a bonus. Who wouldn't want to earn their bread by doing something they genuinely enjoy (let alone something which other people garner so much enjoyment from)?

kriklaf
2006-05-17, 01:25 AM
Just curious--molonel, theKOT--were you guys readers at the end of the last story arc? I was not, but I feel like the latest 10 or so strips have a lot in common with the ones right after the team 'defeated' Xykon--a lot of one strip jokes that had very little to do with the plot (Belkar chasing Elan for XP, Elanicious the wizard, Banjo in the pantheon, the dividing of the loot). I'm just wondering whether you were reading that early and whether you think that the current end-of-story-arc/lead-in-to-next-arc is substantially different from that one.

Me, I think the last several strips have been really amusing and certainly not indicative of the downward trend...but that may be because I read OOTS primarily for the laughs. The story's good, and even engaging, but I'd honestly be almost as happy with a strictly joke-based strip.

molonel, I think you got called a troll because, instead of either commenting to Rich privately or simply stating that you don't like the way the strip has been going lately, you addressed a fairly severe criticism to him on a public forum. Bit confrontational for my taste. That doesn't mean that you aren't entitled to your opinion.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-17, 02:04 AM
I gotta say that the last couple of strips since the Trial Arc have been unanimously par. Not terrible, but not great. Each taken on its own, individually, works fine as a gag. Put together, they form a monotonous space between plots that is simply.... well, boring.

I hate to say it, but a comic with an update schedual as erratic as OOTS's has to be GOOD to be worth it, for me. And OOTS hasn't really been GOOD for a while, it seems it's just been coasting.

That isn't to undermine the effort Burlew puts into his strips, or to say he's been trying less lately. Nor am I suggesting he "owes" it to us the fans to make the comic we want to read. It is Burlew's comic and he can write it however he pleases---the thing is, as a reader, I'm not obliged to stick around if the comic stops being worth it to me.

I recently took snafu webcomic's Grim Tales strip off my list because it referenced 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina in an (IMO) rather tasteless way. So I'd hate to take another off, but if OOTS doesn't pick up in the future (or at least get a fixed time to update) it might follow.

Gary_Howard
2006-05-17, 02:21 AM
I don't know what you're all talking about. I feel more engaged by each new comic than the last one.

But there's no accounting for taste! <3 ukuleles

Charity322
2006-05-17, 02:33 AM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread to see if this has been posted before :P, but that is the most enormous bug zapper I've ever seen. ;D

It was bigger than a full grown man hehe. :o

theKOT
2006-05-17, 02:41 AM
Just curious--molonel, theKOT--were you guys readers at the end of the last story arc?
No. But I have read those strips repeatedly, and enjoyed them. These, for reasons explained in my last post, I have not. I understand the wind-down idea, but the Miko arc ended in a rather long-winded way(Miko leaves and the trial is finished in 285, but the oots doesn't meet at the inn till 294) and now I feel that these strips have been for the most part unnecessary and uninteresting. Long and monotonous strips ending in a kinda funny punchline. I'm not saying "The Giant OWES me" or "He had better be aware that he is hurting his business!"(I'm staying anyway), I'm just saying I am not enjoying these strips, and I hope OOTS breaks out of its doldrums soon.

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 03:03 AM
But your comic has started to suck.

You don't update very often. And when you update, it's not worth reading. This is getting painful. Remember, Rich: it's the internet. We're not going to come back and keep reading this crap forever.

Get back to the damn story.

You and I both know that this is not a free comic, no matter what the flunkies say. You make money from advertising. You make money from the products you sell through the website. And through the readership you built up through this comic, you sell books. You cannot continue this downward spiral, and I hope you know that.

Sincerely,

A reader who cares.
(Emphasis mine.) With all due respect, unneccessary swearing is a hallmark of the troll, in trying to stir up trouble with insults. Surely you can understand our mistake. :)

I understand why you think the comic's quality has declined, but I must respectfully disagree as to the degree. I do like a few of the old ones quite a bit better than the recent ones, and nothing past #288 (the charades thing, purely for the line, "Shojo has a gaze attack that causes encephalitis!") has made it onto my list of favorites. I'll also disagree that I will come back and keep reading this for as long as is neccessary, because I have faith that the Giant will get back to the really really funny stuff eventually, and in the meantime the regular funny stuff is good enough for me. :D

And it is a free webcomic. There is no advertising that he gets any money for, and really none at all that I have ever even seen, but I zone out such things so it may be there without my seeing. ;) There are books and such as you said, but they are purely optional. I have never paid one cent in any form or fashion to Rich, and in all likelyhood I never will. If that's not free, I don't know what is.

Saithis Bladewing
2006-05-17, 03:03 AM
Am I the only person who noticed how awesome the moon's reflection in the water was? ;D

Arian
2006-05-17, 03:12 AM
Conversely [in reply to theKOT - drat all simu-posters!] I'm enjoying the current set of strips very much. #313 has joined my list of Favourite OotS Strips. And readers of the comic threads will know that I'm not someone who posts "Wow! Best evar!" every time there's a new strip.

Whatever the Giant does, some people will like it and others will wish he was doing something else.

Seems to me that he should just keep on doing whatever seems best to him, and if some people would rather read another comic, well, c'est la vie.

There will never be a universal chorus of approval for any direction the comic takes, for the fans aren't all of one mind - indeed, some of us are of diametrically opposing minds.

Long live the free choice of the Giant and of each one of his fans. ;)

Charity322
2006-05-17, 03:13 AM
Am I the only person who noticed how awesome the moon's reflection in the water was? ;D


I just went back and looked at it, it is cool. :)

Gri
2006-05-17, 03:30 AM
I like this webcomic (duh). But I don't like the way the character developement is. Seems like it comes in consentrated doses and not through out the whole ordeal. :p But that might be just my opinion.

OnePostWonder
2006-05-17, 03:35 AM
Just chimin' in!

The punctuation in Roy's romantic exposition seems a bit weird:

"Thank you. You know, for the first time in--I don't know how long, I feel like a person again, and not just a class/race alignment combo."

If you set "I don't know long" off with a dash, you should return to the main sentence with a dash as well, no? As in:

... for the first in--I don't know how long--I feel like a person again...

In other news: I too am wavering in my commitment to logging in every couple days to check for new comics. The current content is a little slow for my tastes.

Honestly, if I had the willpower, I would make myself forget about the comic for a few months so that I could come back and enjoy the plot development on turbo speed!

Cheers,

OnePostWonder

rosebud
2006-05-17, 04:05 AM
I'm enjoying the calm quite a bit, personally. Given the hell that will eventually get unleashed, some calm is appreciated. It also punctuates a story nicely. And it's nice to see Roy happy and relaxed for a change.

I don't claim to love things 100% -- I'd actually probably would have been happier if there wasn't a punch line in #315 and the last three humor panels were replaced by extending panels 8 and 9 to twice their size and just left us with the large panorama and "awwwww" cuddly scene of Celia and Roy overlooking the town at night.

As for story progression, as both Haley's teen angst and Roy have told us (#314/#315), it's almost midnight, so the story is moving. And, as most people in a new or nervous romantic situation know, time does move slowly and every action is remembered, so it could be said to be true to life. And it is these moments which make life worth living.

Anyhow, that's my zero cents. I'm happy. If you're not, it's your right to be miserable. And Rich's right to ignore what any of us think. :)

eof
2006-05-17, 04:39 AM
Yes, but how IS that star showing where the moon should be?
It's not a star; it's the lights from Xykon's Not-So-Secret-Any-More Moon Base. Obviously.

Nikolai_II
2006-05-17, 05:10 AM
It's not a star; it's the lights from Xykon's Not-So-Secret-Any-More Moon Base. Obviously.

Hmm.. it could actually be the home of a god or something similar - like a god of smithcraft or something ;)


Roy would have to be a light load for Celia, if she is to carry him. Creatures with a flying speed can only fly if they have a light load or less.

Huh, it seems as if you are right.. I had seen so many references to things being able to fly with medium load, but looking in the SRD it seems as if medium armor is allowed (and possibly even heavy), but not medium load. Go figure :)
*Prepares smackdown of pesky player* ;)

gnownek
2006-05-17, 06:24 AM
She's going to lay eggs in his still steaming entrails!

I can sense it.

Psychomancer
2006-05-17, 08:17 AM
So has he been telling stories about Elan all night? Celia's going to ditch him for the bard if he keeps this up.

molonel
2006-05-17, 09:24 AM
Just curious--molonel, theKOT--were you guys readers at the end of the last story arc? I was not, but I feel like the latest 10 or so strips have a lot in common with the ones right after the team 'defeated' Xykon--a lot of one strip jokes that had very little to do with the plot (Belkar chasing Elan for XP, Elanicious the wizard, Banjo in the pantheon, the dividing of the loot). I'm just wondering whether you were reading that early and whether you think that the current end-of-story-arc/lead-in-to-next-arc is substantially different from that one.

Because when they defeated Xykon, the whole party didn't spend nine comics going to dinner.

Plot seeds got sprinkled explicitly on the same page as the end of the story arc: the Linear Guild escapes from prison, Miko is deployed by Sojo, Xykon plots revenge on Roy.

Combine this with the slower pace, and the comic isn't really going anywhere. Right now, we have Haley's teenage self EXPLAINING what's going on (a mind-numbing, snooze-inspiring plot device if there ever was one), Elan saying "Blah blah blah" 497 times (it was funny ... no really), and a strip completely devoid of dialogue. The last comic that made me laugh was #301. The last one that advanced the plot in any meaningful way was #300. This used to be the first site I checked in the mornings on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Now I'm checking it every other week because I can't stand to read another dull comic that doesn't advanced the plot.

It's about to get deleted out of my favorites, too. Will Rich lose any sleep over this? Probably not. But it is a very telling sign when even the PRAISE in these discussion threads feels lukewarm and forced. You don't have to hit it out of the ballpark every single day, or even every single week. But this is really starting to get old.

To answer your question, I've been reading the comic since sometime in the early 100s, I think. And I went and read all of the earlier ones, too. One of my friends who is growing equally impatient with the recent story - or lack of one - went back and read the first 300 comics to try and alleviate his boredom.

A _lot_ of the recent comics feel rushed (qualitywise), dull and uninteresting. I write on a couple of different gaming forums, and I asked a LOT of people if they felt the same way.

The overall opinion was unanimous.

Right now, Rich seems to be coasting and coasting and coasting, and admits to being very busy.

I'm sympathetic. Really, I am. But the comic is starting to suck, and I think somebody needed to say it.

carais
2006-05-17, 10:11 AM
At least it would be nice to mention that for you the comic starts to suck. For it does not so for me.

I understand your thirst for plot advancement, as indeed that has been put aside for a while. Personally, I felt the trial comics were somewhat slow (however, Shojo's background story with its different style was a nice touch, and I liked Miko's pursuit of Belkar). But I don't mind taking a break from the plot. These strips revolving around the characters are really fine for me, even and especially the (in)famous wordless one.

The main difference between us, obviously, is that you need the story to captivate you (is that correct English?) while I enjoy each comic on its own. That is not to say I do not like plot *grins* - considering I much preferred Babylon 5 to Star Trek first because it had a story arc (secondly because it felt more real - not such a high gloss no religion everything's fine scenario) it is even somewhat of a paradox.

What we currently have is a lighter atmosphere than most of the time. Especially for Roy (who deserves a time off). And it was, IMO, high time for the Haley subplot to finally be resolved. Even though I am not so sure that will really happen. I enjoy this time, seeing it as gathering strength for times ahead where usually there is often no time for things like these. Wrong setting, readers getting annoyed by interruptions in the middle of the plot, whatever - you name it. When to do things like these if not now?

Seeing how long this post is already and that as so often I overuse ()'s I'll just stop for now. Let it be said that I do enjoy the current part of OotS very much, that you do not so at all, and that saying 'this is great' or 'this sucks' is oversimplifying things. Even if I tend towards the former. ;)

Regards,
Carais

Dirigible
2006-05-17, 10:19 AM
At the end of the day, it's the Giant's story. Can't he do with it what he wants? Or is he supposed to 'owe us' because we're favouring him and his comic with our attention?


Do you feel that comments on the strip should be limited only to praise?

TinSoldier
2006-05-17, 10:24 AM
Am I the only person who noticed how awesome the moon's reflection in the water was? ;DI originally thought that it was sailcloth on one of the ships in the harbor. But the moon's reflection makes more sense.

Nice catch.

mggreenberg
2006-05-17, 10:37 AM
Am I the only one wondering about the, um, propriety of
Celia's flying in an evening gown?

Moonlover
2006-05-17, 10:37 AM
Giant... This my first time posting...

I think your comic is great. I look forward most of the day to open that page and see a new comic.

And I dont think that you should listen to most of the criticism that is posted. I realize everyone has their own thoughts on things. I realize that everyone is their own person. I also realize that you probably can better your work with good honest critiscism.
But I also think that most of what is posted is unfounded. Perhaps there are some out there who need some intelligence and wisdom bonuses? I think it would be more wisdom based...since well they dont comprehend said joke. I somtimes read the posts just to get another giggle out of people who dont understand the "joke" in your comic. ( I am not saying that I myself couldn't use a whole bunch of
extra ablility points. )
This is your art. Your story. And I think its great.
What I really like is that your jokes are not just bash and kill jokes...that you actually have Roleplaying in your comic. That there are actual interactions between characters that you usually wouldn't find in in some games. I find that your comic is a great show of humanity within the element of DnD. And that the jokes most of the time make an usual day of "Reality" a bit easier to handle. A joke making everything seem so much lighter.


So in all.. LOVE THE COMICS! :P

Andiri
2006-05-17, 11:04 AM
I don't mind the comic moving away from mostly hack-n-slash and joking around and more toward character development ... like most players.

I'm actually happy that the Giant has been willing to slow down the story line to get the development in, and don't begrudge him the "9 issues of dinner".

What I do mind is that the Giant seems to think every page needs to end with a joke. Sometimes it's great to throw a bit of comic relief into a serious plot, or the joke itself can underscore the serious plot (see for example #311) but sometimes (such as #315) it's just jarring. It felt like I was reading a novel and was interrupted by a toddler telling a knock-knock joke.

molonel
2006-05-17, 11:06 AM
At least it would be nice to mention that for you the comic starts to suck. For it does not so for me.

Do you step in and ask everyone who expresses a positive opinion to slap a sticker on their posts that says, "This is my opinion!"

No, you don't. And I honestly don't believe you need that sort of reminder on my posts, either. So stop trying to marginalize what I'm saying by expecting me to hop through hoops you don't ask of those who agree with you.

Obviously, my posts represent my opinion. That's why they are attached to my handle, and nobody else's.

I knew I was going to draw fanboy ire by posting anything other than unrelenting praise. But you'll notice several people stepped forward after I said that, and quietly said, "All right, yes, things really are kind of sucking right now." Even if they didn't like how I said it.

It's a valid opinion. That may bother you, but that's life.



... as indeed that has been put aside for a while.

A while? The trial ended 31 comics ago. Even at the rather unremarkable speed of 3 comics a week, which was normal, that would be over two months ago. At the current snail's pace, it's been a lot longer.

Get on with it, already!



Let it be said that I do enjoy the current part of OotS very much, that you do not so at all, and that saying 'this is great' or 'this sucks' is oversimplifying things. Even if I tend towards the former. ;)

I guess my question is, do you have a limit? Is there ever going to come a point where you say, enough? Are you an unquestioning fanboy who will continue giving the author handjobs 100 comics from now if they are still sitting in the Azure City having dinner? Or will your eyes, like mine, start to glaze over at some point in the future?

Because if you have no limit, and are immune to impatience, and offer praise when any character spends an entire strip sitting on the commode, then you really don't have a place in this discussion.

But if, like me, you would like to see something happen, then we are on the same page. We might differ as to WHEN we grow impatient, and you might never be so bold as to express such an opinion, but you don't disagree with me in the longterm. The story has been dragging for a LONG time, now.

carais
2006-05-17, 11:29 AM
molonel, while I conceed the point concerning the opinion label I resent being insulted. Cf. fanboy/handjob and the grotesque example with the commode. I gave you my opinion of the current part (the 'character' strips). Told you I, for example, did not like the trial very much. I didn't say anything about other parts that I maybe found a bit boring, either.

I did not tell you to stuff your opinion somewhere in a closet and I wonder why you seem to think so. Maybe because of the 'oversimplification' part. If so, I apologize, it was not my intention to belittle your opinion.

I do have every right to join here in a civil way. So do you. But don't you tell me to can it just because I like it the way it is right now. That does not say I'll like it if nothing changes for another hundred comics and I didn't say that.

OddlyColoredCanine
2006-05-17, 11:52 AM
I think part of the problem is that it feels like a student trying to make their paper as long as possible, without adding any substance.

theKOT
2006-05-17, 11:56 AM
Conversely [in reply to theKOT - drat all simu-posters!] I'm enjoying the current set of strips very much. #313 has joined my list of Favourite OotS Strips. And readers of the comic threads will know that I'm not someone who posts "Wow! Best evar!" every time there's a new strip.

Whatever the Giant does, some people will like it and others will wish he was doing something else.
There will never be a universal chorus of approval for any direction the comic takes, for the fans aren't all of one mind - indeed, some of us are of diametrically opposing minds.
See my post on page ten about how you can't please everybody.(Gosh, I feel like a certain poster whose name starts with A and ends with lfryd)


As for story progression, as both Haley's teen angst and Roy have told us (#314/#315), it's almost midnight, so the story is moving. And, as most people in a new or nervous romantic situation know, time does move slowly and every action is remembered, so it could be said to be true to life. And it is these moments which make life worth living.

But true-to-lifeness doesn't make for a good story. In a true to life story, we would also twenty strips of people sleeping.



What we currently have is a lighter atmosphere than most of the time. Especially for Roy (who deserves a time off). And it was, IMO, high time for the Haley subplot to finally be resolved. Even though I am not so sure that will really happen. I enjoy this time, seeing it as gathering strength for times ahead where usually there is often no time for things like these. Wrong setting, readers getting annoyed by interruptions in the middle of the plot, whatever - you name it. When to do things like these if not now?

But this could be handled MUCH better, and in half the strips. seriously, the last two Haley strips and the last two Roy strips could be easily compacted into one without losing much at all.


And I dont think that you should listen to most of the criticism that is posted. I realize everyone has their own thoughts on things. I realize that everyone is their own person. I also realize that you probably can better your work with good honest critiscism.
But I also think that most of what is posted is unfounded. Perhaps there are some out there who need some intelligence and wisdom bonuses? I think it would be more wisdom based...since well they dont comprehend said joke. I somtimes read the posts just to get another giggle out of people who dont understand the "joke" in your comic. ( I am not saying that I myself couldn't use a whole bunch of
extra ablility points. )

You shouldn't insinuate that anyone who has differing tastes is less wise or less intelligent than you. I get the joke, it is just not that funny to me. Yeah, a bug zapper. It made me "heh", but it has been done.

I don't mind the comic moving away from mostly hack-n-slash and joking around and more toward character development ... like most players.

I'm actually happy that the Giant has been willing to slow down the story line to get the development in, and don't begrudge him the "9 issues of dinner".

What I do mind is that the Giant seems to think every page needs to end with a joke. Sometimes it's great to throw a bit of comic relief into a serious plot, or the joke itself can underscore the serious plot (see for example #311) but sometimes (such as #315) it's just jarring. It felt like I was reading a novel and was interrupted by a toddler telling a knock-knock joke.

I don't mind character development either, but at this current pace of two comics a week and the fact that the last two comics from each plotline could easily have been condensed into one, I'm growing impatient. The last time I like the Roy Celia pairing was the comic where she asks him out. Now it has become overly schmultzy.




People, the arc's flow has slowed considerably, there is no denying that, and it is frustrating a significant percentage of the readership. Rember this?

It doesn't take a future psychic to know that we're wrapping up the current story arc in OOTS. It has been...interesting...to say the least. I'm very happy with some of it, less so other parts, but for good or ill, it is what it is. There will be some nice and overdue changes of pace after it wraps up, too.
Ask anybody who read that and didn't think he meant it would go faster. Instead, the story points are now oozing out as reluctantly as mollases.

I think part of the problem is that it feels like a student trying to make their paper as long as possible, without adding any substance.
Bingo.

Farseer_George
2006-05-17, 12:06 PM
I'm drifting toward Molonel's opinion. I don't think the comic sucks, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I feel that it is dragging somewhat.

I almost feel bad about saying this as I have probably made a total of three posts on this message board, all of which were critical. In my defence with the amount of praise the Giant gets for his comic (the first few pages are almost always cheers and LOL's and pats on the back) I really don't see the point of making a post that says "I thought that was quite good".

I do believe that dropping back to two comics a week is a good thing. I would much rather have fewer consistent updates than more inconsistent ones. It just irritates me when a person doesn't keep to a deadline (self imposed or not). Also, as this is the Giant’s business, he needs the new book to make money so it makes good sense to make that a priority.

Finally I would like to address the issue of whether the Giant 'owes' his readership anything. My answer would be no with one caveat. That is that each person who reads his online comic is a potential customer of books, tee-shirts, desktop backgrounds or whatever else he sells. If he disappoints enough of his readership he will lose sales. This is very unlikely to happen on any significant sale but the potential is there. Therefore although the Giant does not owe his readers anything he should not ignore criticism and he cannot allow those of his readers who buy merchandise to become disillusioned (at least not so much that they stop buying things).

Mouser
2006-05-17, 12:09 PM
I think part of the problem is that it feels like a student trying to make their paper as long as possible, without adding any substance.

I think he's just running out of ideas because of pressure he puts on himself.

Call it "stress-related writers' block."

Personally, I'm not sure we're dealing with someone who is 100% emotionally, given his position re: what he calls "spoilers."

I'll check back to see if there's any relief to the suckage, but I've been disappointed for a while.

It does feel like Rich is coasting, and has for a while.

molonel
2006-05-17, 12:09 PM
I resent being insulted. Cf. fanboy/handjob and the grotesque example with the commode ... But don't you tell me to can it just because I like it the way it is right now.

Everything I said was couched either as a question, or padded with a conditional "if" to allow you an easy out.

In point of fact, I assume my final paragraph describes you, as it probably describes a lot of readers right now. If you insist on being insulted by questions, however rawly phrased, that is not my fault.

I'm certainly not going to get bent out of shape just because someone else implied that I'm lacking in intelligence for finding the current, outstretched, ongoing lack of story both dull, and dangerously unentertaining.

I notice, again, you're not chastising her for the same behavior, even though she's being much more direct and insulting than anything I said.

Or is it okay to insult people if you do it in defense of the strip?

OddlyColoredCanine
2006-05-17, 12:14 PM
I think he's just running out of ideas because of pressure he puts on himself.

Call it "stress-related writers' block."

Personally, I'm not sure we're dealing with someone who is 100% emotionally, given his position re: what he calls "spoilers."

I'll check back to see if there's any relief to the suckage, but I've been disappointed for a while.

It does feel like Rich is coasting, and has for a while.

I've read most, if not all, of the comics, though I don't know much about Rich or his schedule/life. So I'll take your word for it.

Melnor
2006-05-17, 12:26 PM
I think he's just running out of ideas because of pressure he puts on himself.

Call it "stress-related writers' block."

Personally, I'm not sure we're dealing with someone who is 100% emotionally, given his position re: what he calls "spoilers."

I'll check back to see if there's any relief to the suckage, but I've been disappointed for a while.

It does feel like Rich is coasting, and has for a while.

If I may inject my opinion here,
What I think the Giant is trying to do is expand his work dynamically. While many of us guys would like the constant chopping off of goblin heads/make love to all the women sort of comics, there are also many others that like to see real life added. Have any of you read a good fantasy book without any romance in it? I certainly have not, and I've read very, very many of them. What Rich is doing is giving us a "breather", the "eye before the storm". Soon, all hell is going to break lose, but right now we can all enjoy these sweet comics, as there will be very little time for it later. Personally, I think that Giant's work is all very good, one of my favorite comics, in fact. His skill for dialogue, jokes, and character and plot development is very good. I'm quite sure this is just part of his genius, and when we see the full picture, we'll see how necessary this all was.

theKOT
2006-05-17, 12:34 PM
If I may inject my opinion here,
What I think the Giant is trying to do is expand his work dynamically. While many of us guys would like the constant chopping off of goblin heads/make love to all the women sort of comics, there are also many others that like to see real life added. Have any of you read a good fantasy book without any romance in it? I certainly have not, and I've read very, very many of them. What Rich is doing is giving us a "breather", the "eye before the storm". Soon, all hell is going to break lose, but right now we can all enjoy these sweet comics, as there will be very little time for it later. Personally, I think that Giant's work is all very good, one of my favorite comics, in fact. His skill for dialogue, jokes, and character and plot development is very good. I'm quite sure this is just part of his genius, and when we see the full picture, we'll see how necessary this all was.

I have no problem with the "sweet" plotline, but dragging them out like this is irritating. I've been waiting forever for Haley to get together with Elan, but it seems like the Giant is really, as a previous poster put it, adding more words to his paper without adding any substance. The superfluousness of 313 and 314 is pretty obvious.

EricP
2006-05-17, 12:49 PM
What a difference 6 pages of posts make! The first seven pages where about the strip and the plot and the joke and how great Giant is ('cause he is) and by page thirteen, we are psycho-analysizing him. WOW! I don't know when this thread turned but it sure did.

Now for my two-cents: I loved it, but I also look forward to when the focus on character development is finished. I feel like Belkar, all cooped up in Azure City. I realize that they need to stay in the city until The Lich, Redcloak, and the hobbies get there, but I would like a little more action. Nuff said.

Keep up the great work, Rich, You da man!

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-17, 12:50 PM
Double post.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-17, 01:00 PM
To whoever posted the crack about the INT/WIS scores of those being critical: Whether or not I like a subjective work of art has to do with a lot more than my intelligence.

I have a friend who hates The Great Gatsby, even though I think it's the greatest American novel ever written. I'm certainly not calling his intelligence into question: I'm sure he "got" the novel. For whatever reason, he just didn't like it. Not everyone who disagrees with you needs an INT boost. ¬¬

I also have to agree that fans should stop trying to marginalize those critical of the strip. We shouldn't have to couch our opinions with disclaimers like "just one fan's opinion," or whatever, since those posting effusive praise do not. Conversely, I think that posting our honest opinions---what problems we have with it, and why---is a lot more helpful to the Giant than "lollerz, i <3 ur comix."

I still really like this strip, care about it and want to keep reading. That's why I'm posting my criticism in the first place. If it was to the point where I just didn't think OOTS was worth reading, then I wouldn't, and chances are good you wouldn't see me on the boards after that.

But that's not the case. And I don't think there's much chance of me abandoning OOTS, either. What's a half-dozen poor strips to the more than one hundred excellent ones in the Giant's back-catalogue? It's just worrying that we've had a whole string of these unsatisfying "par" comics.

The Giant could have done these character arcs in half the time so far used, and they're not even finished yet. I don't know if he's really reaching to think of the next plot or what. I just hope we don't hang out here in the doldrums between arcs for much longer.

Mouser
2006-05-17, 01:05 PM
I'm quite sure this is just part of his genius, and when we see the full picture, we'll see how necessary this all was.


Your "genius" is clearly an exercise in hyperbole, especially given the quality of the comics (and the timeliness of Rich's deadline-fu).

The guy has an entire forum dedicated to blowing him.

I think he can handle some critical words.

Mouser
2006-05-17, 01:09 PM
I've read most, if not all, of the comics, though I don't know much about Rich or his schedule/life. So I'll take your word for it.

He mentions the craziness of his life in his comments on the home page.

His rule regarding "spoilers" was made because he didn't want to see anybody's ideas but his own, nor did he want someone to see an idea he came up with six months ago and think, "He stole the idea I posted three days ago!!"

Those two pieces of the puzzle indicate someone with "artistic tendencies."

I have not yet gathered enough evidence to consider Rich to be bat$417-loco...

Yet...

Elcaz
2006-05-17, 01:20 PM
Great comic, Giant. I kind of like the cute/funny combo.

I haven't read the whole thread and I can't be the first to wonder this, but is Celia wearing any underwear? It doesn't seem like it, unless in this universe thongs have already been invented. ;)

Voyeuring a stick figure. That has to be a new low.

McHarty
2006-05-17, 01:35 PM
Assumption is no fun.
Why don't you just stick with the given explanation/reason ?
Why do you have to try to outsmart either Rich or any reader ?
Is there no other way that you could argue on your point without sounding disgratfull and even threatening ?

I mean, all that stuff : I will delete you from my favorites, you will loose readers... Is there no other way to express your disatisfaction ?

You know, the Giant is a human being ... with feelings and stuff... Maybe he do not care about what you say, or maybe he does... But whatever... Don't you sometimes feel some, compassion and -you know that kind of feeling that make you talk to people like they are equals and stuff or just maybe humans with emotions !?-

I often feel sorry for the Giant when I read that kind of post around here.

Sure the board is not just for praise... But you should just try not to hurt peoples feeling when you want to leave negative feeback...

In corporate structure they often teach to begin with a positive aspect, then telling your negative comment and finnish with a good comment again, just to avoid hurting the feeling of the person you are talking to, for it is conterproductive...


( I apologize in advance if my phrasing/grammar/spelling is weird, i'm not native english speaker )

Ted_Stryker
2006-05-17, 01:40 PM
But I also think that most of what is posted is unfounded. Perhaps there are some out there who need some intelligence and wisdom bonuses? I think it would be more wisdom based...since well they dont comprehend said joke.
Well, let me bust out my Lorgnette of Textual Exegesis +4 and give the comic a closer reading...

Could it be that Celia has the Insectile template but is just hiding it really, really well? ;D :P

LoH
2006-05-17, 01:40 PM
Personally, I'm kinda just marking time and enjoying the character development until Xykon rides in (on his undead dragon).

Plenty of time for chopping then.

I did notice Roy's expression start going to "Why does this always happen to me?", as well as Celia's eyes shift (panel before the last).

"This can't end well," comes to mind for what might be going through Roy's head.

carmachu
2006-05-17, 01:45 PM
If I may inject my opinion here,
What I think the Giant is trying to do is expand his work dynamically. While many of us guys would like the constant chopping off of goblin heads/make love to all the women sort of comics, there are also many others that like to see real life added. Have any of you read a good fantasy book without any romance in it? I certainly have not, and I've read very, very many of them. What Rich is doing is giving us a "breather", the "eye before the storm". Soon, all hell is going to break lose, but right now we can all enjoy these sweet comics, as there will be very little time for it later. Personally, I think that Giant's work is all very good, one of my favorite comics, in fact. His skill for dialogue, jokes, and character and plot development is very good. I'm quite sure this is just part of his genius, and when we see the full picture, we'll see how necessary this all was.


That may be, but let me interject another thought in here.

I have the first book of OoTS, loved all the comics. First 120 were great. If the 2nd book goes to 240, I'll grab that.

BUT chances are I'll skip book 3, if it run s to say 360. Not worth my money to pick up, sad to say.....

Reborn
2006-05-17, 01:47 PM
But the rest up to 360 could be, like, amazing :o

chigger
2006-05-17, 01:48 PM
Yeah, it's a little slow. Yeah, there's less mayhem.
But I have little more patience than a gnat (just a little).
I keep thinking there's going to be a big pay off for this "character development."

Melnor
2006-05-17, 01:54 PM
But the rest up to 360 could be, like, amazing :o

Yeah, I think there's a fine balance. For instance, I just finished writing my first fantasy novel; mostly, it's all about character development because it's setting up for the next book which is a huge war that uses all the dynamic characters from the first book. However, I threw in a lot of goblin head-chopping and romance just to keep readers interested (and because it's fun to write).
I think that the only reason we think the storyline is dragging is only because we get two strips a week, so the storyline isn't moving fast enough for us.
Yeah, it's a bit dragging, but like I said before, there will be a big payoff, and when we read all the strips together, all the character development is hardly a hic up in the plot, I'm sure.

carmachu
2006-05-17, 01:55 PM
But the rest up to 360 could be, like, amazing :o

It could also be book 4 or 5 its in for all I know, its just a basic example. But like Mol, from 301+ to presant hasnt been all that good, and it would have to ber REALLY amazing to get me to buy that book with those 15ish comics in it....

Spit_Dog
2006-05-17, 02:00 PM
The guy has an entire forum dedicated to blowing him.

I'm more glad than ever I chose this name, then.

zimri
2006-05-17, 02:13 PM
Unless Celia finds a way to squeeze through the tiny holes in the screen around the zapper, I think she's safe.

Actually you don't need to get inside the holes in the screen to get zapped. I have seen bugzappers go nuts on bats and birds that got too close chasing bugs.

McHarty
2006-05-17, 02:21 PM
Yeah but anyway, it's not strong enough to kill a medium size creature (it just deals non-lethal damage wich is just perfect for a good prank)... It is only effective against tiny or diminutive ...

CelestialStick
2006-05-17, 02:28 PM
*chuckle*

"Can you read my mind SuperCelia?"


I read your post this morning and the music from Superman: The Motion Picture has been doing through my mind all day!

rosebud
2006-05-17, 02:31 PM
But true-to-lifeness doesn't make for a good story. In a true to life story, we would also twenty strips of people sleeping.Hey, the sleeping (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=14) strips (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=15) have (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=16) been (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=39) some (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=78) of (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=83) the (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123) funniest (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=146) of (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=162) the (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=185) the (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=224) whole (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=225) series (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=227).

Also, keep in mind that you are reading this over the course of creation. In completed book form, they read much faster than two to five strips a week. But you get more involved and more jokes (see the "Goddamn it, that took WEEKS!" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=198) joke in 198 ) reading as it is created.

theKOT
2006-05-17, 02:36 PM
Also, keep in mind that you are reading this over the course of creation. In completed book form, they read much faster than two to five strips a week. But you get more involved and more jokes (see the "Goddamn it, that took WEEKS!" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=198) joke in 198 ) reading as it is created.
I am.

More proof of the "can't please everyone" theory. People had the same reaction after the plot really settled into the Miko/courtroom phase. Now that the plot has shifted, or shall I say disappeared for the sake of character development, readers are once again unhappy.


Let me say I think this current arc is slow, boring, and schmultzy. Haley is moving at about an inch a minute, while Roy's date seems to be strip after strip of overly-cutesy ways of saying "Roy and Celia are happy together".

However, I think much of my dislike is actually stemming from three things:
1. The conversion to two a week has made it feel slower, so that bit is blown slightly out of proportion.
2. The things the Giant is writing on are difficult to fully yet concisely express through a comic, and I think he is struggling a bit with it.
3. Lastly, my subconcious REALLY misses Miko, and it also feels sad for her due to Roy+Celia. So that probably is a factor as well.

So, to wrap it all up, I reiterate: you can't please everybody.
Still, I know these things:
1. OOTS doesn't always stink like this, even in its strip-by-strip format. And
2. These strips feel stretched

Seik
2006-05-17, 02:45 PM
Many people have recently forwarded the theory that 'you can't please everybody.'

I would call your attention to the first couple hundred strips: I'm pretty certain that in those discussion threads, there was unanimous praise and happy-ish smilies. However, recently dissent has trickled in and has climaxed to a roar in this discussion. I believe that this evidence goes a good ways towards proving the theory wrong.

All that having been said, I find myself a brother-in-arms of the dissenters. Ever since the trial (and even moreso afterwards) the strip has dragged, and I'm worried that the Giant is out of material.

Although I don't profess to have the Giant's skill or comic savvy, I've created a couple of really short (and poorly illustrated) comics in the past - and what I figured out after the first one is that if I tried to outlive my jokes and tack extra material onto the end, they became much like the recent OOTS comics. So, naturally, I modified my behavior. If I had a couple of good gag ideas and a little plot, I'd write the couple of gags and a little plot and end it before it got boring.

I really hope that OOTS recovers. I loved the first 275+ strips, and also liked On The Origin of PCs. However, if it's not going to recover, it might just be best to get to the end of the story, wrap things up, and cut the ole losses.

theKOT
2006-05-17, 02:53 PM
Many people have recently forwarded the theory that 'you can't please everybody.'

I would call your attention to the first couple hundred strips: I'm pretty certain that in those discussion threads, there was unanimous praise and happy-ish smilies. However, recently dissent has trickled in and has climaxed to a roar in this discussion. I believe that this evidence goes a good ways towards proving the theory wrong.

All that having been said, I find myself a brother-in-arms of the dissenters. Ever since the trial (and even moreso afterwards) the strip has dragged, and I'm worried that the Giant is out of material.

Although I don't profess to have the Giant's skill or comic savvy, I've created a couple of really short (and poorly illustrated) comics in the past - and what I figured out after the first one is that if I tried to outlive my jokes and tack extra material onto the end, they became much like the recent OOTS comics. So, naturally, I modified my behavior. If I had a couple of good gag ideas and a little plot, I'd write the couple of gags and a little plot and end it before it got boring.

This is true. The frustration of the readers seems to be mounting, and unless something really great happens soon, I do see a loss of interest for the average reader. before, the dissenter to happy person ratio was something like 1/4 at worst. This thread seems to suggest a 2/5 ratio.

Mouser
2006-05-17, 03:04 PM
Or is it okay to insult people if you do it in defense of the strip?

Or the stripper, Rich.

It's important to have respect for a stripper of Rich's obvious talents, and not just try to tear him down.

If you're gonna make comments about the strip or its stripper, you need to make them constructive comments.

For those too young to know:

(stripper= Bloom County Reference)

CelestialStick
2006-05-17, 03:19 PM
I like the current strip. I didn't laugh out loud at the bug zapper, and like at least one other poster found it a bit jarring in the middle of their romantic flight. I too would have preferred that Rich keep this strip romantic. I don't find the comic lagging, however, as some do. I'm really enjoying the character development. I am impatient with Haley to just go and kiss Elan, but that's impatience with the character and not with the strip.

I think that over the long-term the strip cannot always be about D&D rules humor and the like. Rich has done so much of D&D rules humor that he's probably picked all or most of the low-hanging fruit in that area. When he did a romantic D&D humor strip (the one with Celia grappling Roy) many people didn't like it. I really did. It conveyed character development and used metagame D&D humor.

I think that Rich will not lose his audience if he continues to focus more on character development and less on D&D humor. The audience might change somewhat, but clearly a big part of the current audience still loves what he's doing.

malcolio
2006-05-17, 03:38 PM
I like the current strips, I really don't see what people are complaining about. ???

Plus, what's this about the plot being put on hold since the trial? We've had Durkon writing a letter to his homeland, Hailey trying to tell Elan she loves him, and Roy and Celia getting together! All this with the overhanging shadow of a large invasion force?

That seems like a lot of plot to me!

saraswati
2006-05-17, 03:40 PM
I just have to say this about the "effusive praise" vs. "criticism" debate that has been going on in this thread.

Molonel wrote: "Do you step in and ask everyone who expresses a positive opinion to slap a sticker on their posts that says, "This is my opinion!" "

My answer to this is that, in general, most positive posts read on variations of "I loved it!" or "I thought this was my favorite!" or "this made me laugh!". As you can see from the grammar, there is no need to slap a sticker on these posts because the language is clear, "this is my opinion". Sure you do get some posts of "This was the best comic strip in the known universe!" or "I'm tired of you player-haters! stop critizing the giant!" Those posts happen, but they are not the majority.

I'm not going to make any claims about how many of the critical posts are the opposite. But, contrary to Molonel's claim, I, as a representative poster of generally positive comments, have no problem whatsoever with people posting a negative reaction to the comic. I don't post something positive because I am "sucking up" (to put it more civilly), because really, come on, it's not like I have any sort of personal relationship with the Giant or anyone on this board. So I don't post anything positive I feel because I am hoping for a positive reaction.

And I don't get upset by someone posting a negative or critical idea just because it is critical. I have no problem with people saying "I didn't like this one" or "I hated this one" or "I'm bored" or "I hate sappy stories". I may feel differently, but I have no problem with that. I also don't feel that it's "disloyal" to post criticism, nor, conversely, do I feel that the Giant owes us a certain style of storytelling.

I do have a problem with people posting universal statements with assumptions that their opinions are truth and who back those assumptions up by insulting anyone who disagrees with their "universal truth". In my honest opinion, this happens more often with people who are posting criticism ("the complete lack of plot since strip #number whatever is proof that the Giant is coasting and has nothing to say, and people who are afraid to say that are suckup fanboys") . But it also does happen from the other side too ("This was great and whoever didn't like it doesn't understand humor/rich's goals/storytelling").

I think that's why posters more often complain about the critical posts than the positive ones. Not because the majority of people here insist on happy sunshiny rainbows of praise, but because they get tired of critics trying to pass off their opinions as the only measure of reality.

I think if you want your criticism to be well recieved and not complained about, you should own up to it. It can't be that hard to simply write, "I hated this strip because I felt it lacked plot. And I'm bored because I like plot more than punchlines If it were like Goblins I'd like it again" etc. After all, there are a lot of people on the board that DO post criticism like that.

Also I'm pretty certain that writing an insult as a question does not fail to make it insulting or personal. It just makes it an insinuated insult. And everyone on this board is smart enough to get what you are implying, so it's not like we didn't notice that you personally insulted someone.

That's my two cents

rosebud
2006-05-17, 03:41 PM
The frustration of the readers seems to be mounting, and unless something really great happens soon, I do see a loss of interest for the average reader.Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? 8)

As stated, it's almost midnight, your complaints are about some really sweet moments. If it's not your style, take a break, go buy some popcorn and soda, and come back when the action returns. The majority (the mere 3/5ths, as you describe) seem to be enjoying the "slow parts" of the show.


OOTS doesn't always stink like this, even in its strip-by-strip format.What film/book genres do you prefer and which do you dislike? (I enjoy some action, but I also like drama and comedy, including romantic comedy but not mindless emasculated tripe. I'm not much of a horror or violence fan.)

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 03:43 PM
I knew I was going to draw fanboy ire by posting anything other than unrelenting praise.
Another hallmark of the troll: doing it anyway, specifically knowing that you were going to get people's hackles up. It's also the sole purpose of the troll, and I begin to question your intentions.

I guess my question is, do you have a limit? Is there ever going to come a point where you say, enough? Are you an unquestioning fanboy who will continue giving the author handjobs 100 comics from now if they are still sitting in the Azure City having dinner? Or will your eyes, like mine, start to glaze over at some point in the future?

Because if you have no limit, and are immune to impatience, and offer praise when any character spends an entire strip sitting on the commode, then you really don't have a place in this discussion.

But if, like me, you would like to see something happen, then we are on the same page. We might differ as to WHEN we grow impatient, and you might never be so bold as to express such an opinion, but you don't disagree with me in the longterm. The story has been dragging for a LONG time, now.
More unneccessary insults (fanboy, handjobs), now carefully couched in implication (not unlike Moonlover's low WIS implication), as well as hypocrisy in saying that people do not belong in the discussion. Patient people's opinions are no more invalid than your own impatient one. I will continue to be patient for many months, for the simple reason that there is a 75 comic gap in my list of favorites between #127 & #202. (Didn't like the bandit arc as much as the rest. :-/ Still funny, but not as much. )

RE: The Giant reading criticism
Even bad criticism can create a positive change. Some people need the extra push that comes from being needlessly rude about it. That said, I don't think the Giant even reads these threads at all. Nor should he. He's got mods to police for violations, or even a question they think he should answer (meaning that his posts partway through the thread don't necessarily mean he's actually reading all of this). And as it is his comic, he should take it in whatever direction he deems, not catering to the fans or the detractors. If it becomes unprofitable, he can always get a real job. ;) I wouldn't mind him only churning out one a week if it meant independance from criticism of his strip, and the ability to stay true to his vision without fearing a financial hit if he doesn't cater to his detractors.

stevec
2006-05-17, 03:51 PM
Wow, this is another thread that seems to have gotten almost completely out of control.

I read a fair number of web comics. In just about every case some of them have gone through phases where I thought the plot wasn't going at the right speed, or I didn't care for a particular sub-plot that was being developed.

It might just be time for some of you who are genuinely getting upset about the strip to take a break from it for a couple weeks.

I don't always like all of the plotlines in OotS, but I trust Rich's abilities as a storyteller to bring them all together.

Maybe it might be time to just take a break and come back to the strip in a little bit. Frankly, I think that's a lot better thing to do than be unhappy about something that should make you smile.

--Steve

Mouser
2006-05-17, 03:51 PM
He's got mods to police for violations, or even a question they think he should answer (meaning that his posts partway through the thread don't necessarily mean he's actually reading all of this).

I have no doubt that once he becomes aware of it, he will close this thread. Given their prior reactions, he really can't handle conflict very well.

Blaznak
2006-05-17, 03:54 PM
I have no doubt that once he becomes aware of it, he will close this thread. Given their prior reactions, he really can't handle conflict very well.

Well, not only that, but the vulgar comments are getting out of hand.

Sighs -

Later...

Mouser
2006-05-17, 03:54 PM
Well, not only that, but the vulgar comments are getting out of hand.


When I find one, I'll be sure to report it.

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 04:02 PM
I have no doubt that once he becomes aware of it, he will close this thread. Given their prior reactions, he really can't handle conflict very well.
I wouldn't say that he can't, but more that he simply doesn't want to. With all the rules he's got for his forums (and I'm not saying there are too many; it's one of the reasons why I bothered to join in the first place), it does seem like he's trying to create a no-conflict zone. An admirable goal, IMHO.

Mouser
2006-05-17, 04:04 PM
With all the rules he's got for his forums (and I'm not saying there are too many; it's one of the reasons why I bothered to join in the first place), it does seem like he's trying to create a no-conflict zone. An admirable goal, IMHO.

Without conflict there can be no growth.

Watch "Serenity" if you want to see a society without conflict.

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 04:18 PM
Aye, but the Giant is not responsible for our growth. ;) In addition, I don't think internet conflict does a whole lot other than the obvious.

And BTW, nothing vulgar? Handjobs and "a whole forum dedicated to blowing him" don't fit into that category? ??? I'd report it myself if I knew my way around these forums better.

Thief-Wizard101
2006-05-17, 04:18 PM
Celia dont touch that dont tough it...ZAPpp Sweet comic

Mouser
2006-05-17, 04:19 PM
Aye, but the Giant is not responsible for our growth. ;) In addition, I don't think internet conflict does a whole lot other than the obvious.

And BTW, nothing vulgar? Handjobs and "a whole forum dedicated to blowing him" don't fit into that category? ??? I'd report it myself if I knew my way around these forums better.

*shrug*

Some people have a low tolerance, I guess...

Mouser
2006-05-17, 04:40 PM
Besides, if the phrases in and of themselves constitute vulgarity, then you are implicated by repeating them.

Are you sure that's the message you want to be sending to the little kiddies?

Pheldagriff
2006-05-17, 04:53 PM
I feel compelled to say the following:

I greatly enjoyed this strip and I almost shared that feeling of astonishment with Roy when Celia flew him above Azure City

carmachu
2006-05-17, 04:58 PM
I wouldn't say that he can't, but more that he simply doesn't want to. With all the rules he's got for his forums (and I'm not saying there are too many; it's one of the reasons why I bothered to join in the first place), it does seem like he's trying to create a no-conflict zone. An admirable goal, IMHO.


A unattenable one. If your only interested in positive items, you'll never get better at anything.

What you and a few others seem to imply is, only positive opinions will be tolerated and if we dont like it, go away for a while.

Yeah, thats going to keep readers around.

Its not JUST the slow, and well, lameness of the last 15 comics, its the constant lateness(in reality, its been consistantly tuesday, thursday, and saturday, maybe if we're lucky), and of course the cutback to 2 a week.

*shrug* Sorta shows a bit of distain to your readers, if you ask my opinion.

But like I said earlier, I know which book of OOTS I WONT be buying, unless it gets back on track, when it becomes availiable. Vote with your wallet I always say.

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 05:20 PM
Touche, Mouser. ;) If you'd be so kind as to remove your quote, I'll do the same to my posts and save the mods the trouble. :)


A unattenable one. If your only interested in positive items, you'll never get better at anything.

What you and a few others seem to imply is, only positive opinions will be tolerated and if we dont like it, go away for a while.

Yeah, thats going to keep readers around.
Unattenable to be without conflict, perhaps, but that doesn't neccessarily make it a bad goal. ;)

And I'm not trying to imply that criticism is bad (though I can't speak for others). Far from it. But conflict does not have to accompany that criticism, and it is the conflict that I think is bad. Peacefully disagreeing is my favorite kind, and I welcome it at all times. :) theKOT's posts, for example, are very well thought out, and I respect them even as I do not find myself in agreement.

Dirigible
2006-05-17, 05:24 PM
And I'm not trying to imply that criticism is bad. Far from it. But conflict does not have to accompany that criticism, and it is the conflict that I think is bad. Peacefully disagreeing is my favorite kind, and I welcome it at all times. :) theKOT's posts, for example, are very well thought out, and I respect them even as I do not find myself in agreement.

I think several of the detractors have made some good points and posted valid opinions, but their choice to use aggressive language has left an easy out for those who disagree. They can point at things like 'handjob' and summarily dismiss their entire content.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-17, 05:46 PM
Now, really, I have to say, it does seem to me like a significant percentage of the praise that shows up in these threads is... well, "handjobbing" is vulgar but pretty accurate. "I loved it!" "OMFG Giant, BEST. ONE. YET." "I laughed so hard, I'm dyin' over here!"

I don't think the real reason is just to stoke Berlew's ego, though. Pretty much it's just people want to get on the first page, hence the one-line posts of shallow praise. I think the Giant understands this and I'd be surprised if he took "Best 1 evr!1" to be equally valid as someone else's long thought-out critique.

I also think there seems to be a definite backlash entirely from the more devoted fans against those of us expressing "dissent." That term in of itself, by the way, is a big culprit in creating the whole polarizing atmosphere of "either you like it or you hate it," when really there's any number of opinions a comic could inspire and no two people need agree. The term "dissent" implies there is a "recommended/standard/enforced" way to react to the Giant's comics (in this case with effusive praise), and those who express a different opinion are some kind of marginal fringe group to be ignored or told to quietly mind themselves while everyone else cheers their lungs out. This in of itself isn't just a lie, the whole "dychotomy" is an oversimplification created for the sake of Geeky Melodrama.

I have no idea how much of that made sense, but anyway....

I gotta say to some of those who are also expressing distaste with the strips: questioning the Giant's mental health really goes too far. When I read a work, I like to keep it part and parcel separate from the author. Someone who is a complete jerk can write a work of moving power, and someone who might be a great guy could write some absolute incoherant dreck. No point in bringing personality into it.

Just because Burlew has a pet peeve with predictions (I admit, I don't understand that myself) hardly makes him crazy.

Anyway, someone else makes the excellent point: the long wait between strips, and the erratic posting "schedule" adds a lot to the general discontentment I'm feeling with these strips.

If Giant was putting these strips up regularly three times a week, I honestly wouldn't feel half as strongly about it. Sure these strips are IMO kind of weak, but they're moving along briskly. However, with just two a week---possibly coming up at any point during that week---they have to be GOOD to keep me coming back, to keep me interested.

When I load this site after five days of checking and finding nothing, and there's finally a new comic up, and I read it, and my first reaction is "I waited a week for THAT?" You can understand my dissapointment.

And just so I can completely repeat myself: Burlew is in no way beholden to listen to anyone's opinion but his own. He can write whatever he wants, he doesn't "owe" anyone anything for his free comic. However, his readers have the right to express a reaction, be it positive or negative.

I've never payed a dime for OOTS, and I don't think I ever will. Honestly, it's good, but I'm really a stingy bastard and see no reason to spend money for the sake of a few bonus strips. So maybe Burlew shouldn't put as much weight on my opinion as he might on someone who bought the OOTS baseball caps, comemmoration mugs, etc. (The Miko/Belkar boxing bots... c'mon, you know there's gold in them hills.)

You don't know how weird it feels to be writing this. A month ago I was drawing OOTS fanart everyday and asking The Giant if he'd put them on his site. This comic has been great, I hope it will be again.

carmachu
2006-05-17, 05:50 PM
I think several of the detractors have made some good points and posted valid opinions, but their choice to use aggressive language has left an easy out for those who disagree. They can point at things like 'handjob' and summarily dismiss their entire content.

Some will anyway, since it clashes with their view on the comic.

I've seen that line of thinking before. "Its not what you said, its HOW you said it" Line of logic.

If its not your tone, its your language. If its not your language, its your mannerisms, if its not that, its something else.

Some will look for any excuse.

BlythraB
2006-05-17, 05:50 PM
I might have guessed it from Roy, but Celia saying "sooo pretty" in any context is awesome.
P.S. Kiss ze Girl

WampaX
2006-05-17, 05:52 PM
Voice of the Wampinator: PG-13 people.

In response to this section of the boards. No, it is not to inflate Rich's ego. It was divided as such so that the discussions happening on the Comic (and other comics) didn't overtake another section or crop up in several forums. It was a matter of containment.

Same goes with the [Spoiler] tags. They are there for as much the beneft of Rich being influenced/ticked off by stuff as other readers who didn't want the story "spoiled" for them. With the tag, they can easily see that a thread may contain information (even speculative) that may reduce their enjoyment of future strips.

carmachu
2006-05-17, 05:55 PM
I think you hit the head on the nail there, Piedmon_Sama.

If the comic was running consistantly 2-3 a week on time, yeah its a bit weak right now but it would at LEAST be moving along. The wait and wait and wait for what, ray jumping up in a tavern on a date?

The fact its not up consistantly plays a part in the dissent over the comic at the moment.

theKOT
2006-05-17, 06:03 PM
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? 8)

As stated, it's almost midnight, your complaints are about some really sweet moments. If it's not your style, take a break, go buy some popcorn and soda, and come back when the action returns. The majority (the mere 3/5ths, as you describe) seem to be enjoying the "slow parts" of the show.

What film/book genres do you prefer and which do you dislike? (I enjoy some action, but I also like drama and comedy, including romantic comedy but not mindless emasculated tripe. I'm not much of a horror or violence fan.)
Why do you, and several others, continue to assume that I want violence and action? I normally [i]love[i] the romantic parts of books and movies(I really like you've got mail). My problem is not with the subject matter, it is how this is being written out: slow and predictable. There really isn't much there despite page after page of drawings.

Kish
2006-05-17, 06:06 PM
I am having a hard time remembering when there's been a comic thread which didn't have some people saying, "This strip sucks and clearly shows how OotS is losing everything that makes it worth reading. If Burlew wants to save it he must [do whatever he's not doing in the strip in question--less jokes, more jokes, less plot, more plot]."

molonel
2006-05-17, 06:06 PM
My answer to this is that, in general, most positive posts read on variations of "I loved it!" or "I thought this was my favorite!" or "this made me laugh!". As you can see from the grammar, there is no need to slap a sticker on these posts because the language is clear, "this is my opinion". Sure you do get some posts of "This was the best comic strip in the known universe!" or "I'm tired of you player-haters! stop critizing the giant!" Those posts happen, but they are not the majority [...] And I don't get upset by someone posting a negative or critical idea just because it is critical. I have no problem with people saying "I didn't like this one" or "I hated this one" or "I'm bored" or "I hate sappy stories". I may feel differently, but I have no problem with that. I also don't feel that it's "disloyal" to post criticism, nor, conversely, do I feel that the Giant owes us a certain style of storytelling. I do have a problem with people posting universal statements with assumptions that their opinions are truth and who back those assumptions up by insulting anyone who disagrees with their "universal truth". In my honest opinion, this happens more often with people who are posting criticism ("the complete lack of plot since strip #number whatever is proof that the Giant is coasting and has nothing to say, and people who are afraid to say that are suckup fanboys") . But it also does happen from the other side too ("This was great and whoever didn't like it doesn't understand humor/rich's goals/storytelling"). I think that's why posters more often complain about the critical posts than the positive ones. Not because the majority of people here insist on happy sunshiny rainbows of praise, but because they get tired of critics trying to pass off their opinions as the only measure of reality.

So - long story short - people who write negative comments need to separate their opinions from universal truth at each and every opportunity, but fanboys can ra-ra all day long.

Got it.

Thanks for explaining that.



I think if you want your criticism to be well recieved and not complained about, you should own up to it. It can't be that hard to simply write, "I hated this strip because I felt it lacked plot. And I'm bored because I like plot more than punchlines If it were like Goblins I'd like it again" etc. After all, there are a lot of people on the board that DO post criticism like that.

Fanboys can't take criticism. That's a universal truth that embraces Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans, Trekkies, Fundamentalist Christians of the worst sort, and die-hard Democrats who thought voting for John Kerry was a good idea. There are always going to be people who ask for two lumps, and room for cream in the top of their cup when they read something bitter.

One person has already said that if I didn't like the comics, I could ... you know ... do something else.

Doesn't that particular bit of wit apply equally well to those who don't like reading criticism about their favorite web comic on a forum which is evidently designed strictly for praising the creator?



Also I'm pretty certain that writing an insult as a question does not fail to make it insulting or personal. It just makes it an insinuated insult. And everyone on this board is smart enough to get what you are implying, so it's not like we didn't notice that you personally insulted someone.

I have personally insulted nobody.

As I've said, either aim your criticisms equally at all who you claim offer insult, or don't bother speaking to me at all. Because what you mean is: "Hey! Don't insult the people I agree with!"



Another hallmark of the troll: doing it anyway, specifically knowing that you were going to get people's hackles up. It's also the sole purpose of the troll, and I begin to question your intentions.

Question away. I question whether or not you are simply a mindless fanboy - does that make you one?

The obvious answer is no, and applies in reverse.

(And before anyone comes back with, "Hey! More insults!" being called a troll is both insulting, and namecalling. I don't like being called a troll, either, and nobody seems to mind when several people have slapped that label on me.)



More unneccessary insults (fanboy, handjobs), now carefully couched in implication (not unlike Moonlover's low WIS implication), as well as hypocrisy in saying that people do not belong in the discussion. Patient people's opinions are no more invalid than your own impatient one. I will continue to be patient for many months, for the simple reason that there is a 75 comic gap in my list of favorites between #127 & #202. (Didn't like the bandit arc as much as the rest. :-/ Still funny, but not as much. )

We all read, and derive our humor, from a web comic that uses graphic violence (wearing your opponent's head as a hat), occasionally heavy sexual innuendo, comic book characters basking in post-coital bliss, or direct and sometimes brutal insults on every aspect of someone's character to make us laugh. You cannot honestly read some of the drivel in this thread without imagining that it could, quite easily, be poured into a bottle of lotion and delivered with a box of kleenex. And yes, I stand by my statement that _-*** IF ***-_ you are a mindless fanboy (is that "if" set off carefully enough so everyone can see it, or do I need to put a few pink post-it notes around it, too?) then you do not belong in any legitimate discussion of a web comic's worth or lack of it. That applies equally in discussions about TV shows, movies, books or whatever.

If you cannot ever under any circumstances admit fault with something, then join a cult. And saying, "Well, I can admit a fault if it's delivered to me slathered in sugar, pretty pretty please, and on a silver tray" then that is no different.

If insults bother you, then they should ALWAYS bother you in a discussion, and not simply because they appear in the posts of someone you disagree with.



I wouldn't say that he can't, but more that he simply doesn't want to. With all the rules he's got for his forums (and I'm not saying there are too many; it's one of the reasons why I bothered to join in the first place), it does seem like he's trying to create a no-conflict zone. An admirable goal, IMHO.

No-conflict zones are NOT an admirable goal. I once enjoyed reading the forums of Monte Cook, who was (and is still) my favorite D&D game designer. His forums used to be a place where people came together and argued about rules, politics, whatever. Mods slapped down the obvious trolls, but as long as you had a valid point, you were pretty much allowed to say what you wanted.

Enter the "No conflict" policy. The forums dried up, for the most part. It can now take a month for a thread to move down to the bottom of the page in the rules forum. Fanboys prevail. Most of the better writers moved over to Enworld.org where they don't have people looking over their shoulder all the time.

Message forums thrive on conflict. They die when the only people allowed to say anything are yes-men.

OddlyColoredCanine
2006-05-17, 06:10 PM
carmachu and Piedmon Sama also have a good point.

When comic strips start getting erratic, you stop checking the site.

At least, I know several instances where I've stopped checking the site when the comic gets erratic.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-05-17, 06:16 PM
I am having a hard time remembering when there's been a comic thread which didn't have some people saying, "This strip sucks and clearly shows how OotS is losing everything that makes it worth reading. If Burlew wants to save it he must [do whatever he's not doing in the strip in question--less jokes, more jokes, less plot, more plot]."

And I gotta say, since it seems that's coming under scrutiny ATM----that is definitely a good thing. If you get negative feedback again and again, then I'm thinking at some point someone's actually going to make a worthwhile suggestion to improve it. Law of averages.

molonel
2006-05-17, 06:17 PM
I think several of the detractors have made some good points and posted valid opinions, but their choice to use aggressive language has left an easy out for those who disagree. They can point at things like 'handjob' and summarily dismiss their entire content.

Some people are going to dismiss any and all criticism out-of-hand because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the BEST. COMIC. EVAR!!!!!11111 and shame on you for suggesting otherwise.

Do I fill my posts to the brim with vulgarity, swearing, or harsh language? Of course not. I never have. I have points, I can back them up, I read the comic. Ergo, I should be able to participate in this discussion. There are several folks, however, who would like to foist me out of the discussion for any excuse whatsoever.

"He's a troll!"
"He used the word 'handjob' in a post! That offends me so much I'm going to repeat the word as many times as I can!"
(Never mind the accuracy of that description.)
"That dirty blank-blankety blank son of a blank insulted me!"

As Carmachu said, "If its not your tone, its your language. If its not your language, its your mannerisms, if its not that, its something else. Some will look for any excuse."



Why do you, and several others, continue to assume that I want violence and action? I normally love the romantic parts of books and movies(I really like you've got mail). My problem is not with the subject matter, it is how this is being written out: slow and predictable. There really isn't much there despite page after page of drawings.

Because, obviously, that's easier than confronting the plain truth that you are RIGHT, or have a valid point.

Holy_Knight
2006-05-17, 06:17 PM
Rich, I'm going to be honest with you. A lot of people are going to criticize me for saying this.
Yep, I am going to criticize you. Not for your opinion, but for the way you said it. Some people have said things like "I thught the bug zapper joke detracted from the strip" or "The comic seems to be dragging lately, it needs more action". Those are constructive. Saying "The comic sucks", calling it "crap", and saying people who disagree with you are basically giving Rich "handjobs" isn't. If you really aren't trolling, you're doing a good imitation. On the other hand, if you really are "A reader who cares", take some points from people who manage to express criticism without being inflammatory and offensive.




Some will anyway, since it clashes with their view on the comic.

I've seen that line of thinking before. "Its not what you said, its HOW you said it" Line of logic.

If its not your tone, its your language. If its not your language, its your mannerisms, if its not that, its something else.

Some will look for any excuse.

That is not an excuse, carmachu; it does matter how you say things. If you'd like an example, try this: The next time someone invites you to dinner and offers you a dish you don't like, don't say "Oh, no thanks, that's not my favorite". Say: "Aw, sick! That crap is disgusting!" If they react poorly to that, just explain to them that it doesn't matter how you say things.

Felinoid
2006-05-17, 06:36 PM
Question away. I question whether or not you are simply a mindless fanboy - does that make you one?

The obvious answer is no, and applies in reverse.

(And before anyone comes back with, "Hey! More insults!" being called a troll is both insulting, and namecalling. I don't like being called a troll, either, and nobody seems to mind when several people have slapped that label on me.)

A fair comparison, and as I said, I am only questioning. I have not yet made up my mind, and in all likelyhood I will have forgotten this in a week or two (unless you keep it up).


You cannot honestly read some of the drivel in this thread without imagining that it could, quite easily, be [censored].

Perhaps you cannot, but I assure you that I can with great ease. ;) And I could still do without the vulgarity, TYVM.


And yes, I stand by my statement that _-*** IF ***-_ you are a mindless fanboy (is that "if" set off carefully enough so everyone can see it, or do I need to put a few pink post-it notes around it, too?) then you do not belong in any legitimate discussion of a web comic's worth or lack of it. That applies equally in discussions about TV shows, movies, books or whatever.

The same could be said of people who mindlessly hate the comic for no reason. Fortunately, I have seen neither type in this thread. :)


If you cannot ever under any circumstances admit fault with something, then join a cult. And saying, "Well, I can admit a fault if it's delivered to me slathered in sugar, pretty pretty please, and on a silver tray" then that is no different.
Implication correction: "If you cannot ever under any circumstances admit fault with something, even when it is at fault, ..." The question is whether or not the comic really is at fault, and differing opinions does not mean someone is wrong. One person finding fault with something does not make it a fault, nor does one person not finding fault with it mean there is no fault. Personally, I'd say it's a little too close to tell. Some people even like the slow pace.


If insults bother you, then they should ALWAYS bother you in a discussion, and not simply because they appear in the posts of someone you disagree with.
I guess I did not make it explicitly clear, but yes, I was bothered by Moonlover's implication as well. On the other hand, there is a question of degree. And your constant vulgarity bothers me more.


No-conflict zones are NOT an admirable goal. I once enjoyed reading the forums of Monte Cook, who was (and is still) my favorite D&D game designer. His forums used to be a place where people came together and argued about rules, politics, whatever. Mods slapped down the obvious trolls, but as long as you had a valid point, you were pretty much allowed to say what you wanted.

Enter the "No conflict" policy. The forums dried up, for the most part. It can now take a month for a thread to move down to the bottom of the page in the rules forum. Fanboys prevail. Most of the better writers moved over to Enworld.org where they don't have people looking over their shoulder all the time.

Message forums thrive on conflict. They die when the only people allowed to say anything are yes-men.
I agree with you in principle. But I consider disagreement (the thing that discussions thrive on) to be far different from conflict (the thing that destroys otherwise good discussions). Disagreement has a much better connotation than conflict, in my mind, and a much better result. Conflict is unneccessary and unwanted; disagreement is welcomed. :)


EDIT:

Some people are going to dismiss any and all criticism out-of-hand because there is absolutely nothing wrong with the BEST. COMIC. EVAR!!!!!11111 and shame on you for suggesting otherwise.

Actually, I do see a problem with that. I hate leet. >_<

And people who would discount an opinion simply because it is different are not people to worry about. :) They're welcome to their closed-mindedness.


Do I fill my posts to the brim with vulgarity, swearing, or harsh language? Of course not. I never have. I have points, I can back them up, I read the comic. Ergo, I should be able to participate in this discussion. There are several folks, however, who would like to foist me out of the discussion for any excuse whatsoever.

To the brim? No. But I do think that ANY is too much. Call me a prude if you will, but it simply isn't neccessary, especially when the same thing can be derived from starred swear words. And (though again I cannot speak for others) I don't wish you to leave, only to choose your words more carefully when forming your criticsm (as in lose the vulgarity). :) But you likely don't care what I think. ;)


Because, obviously, that's easier than confronting the plain truth that you are RIGHT, or have a valid point.

Far easier, and more understandable. It's more understandable that someone would disagree because they simply do not know as much, a bit harder to understand that someone may be just as smart and simply have a different opinion. Hence why people go to "stupid", "troll", or "fanboy" as their first thought instead of "everyone's entitled to their own opinion". Quite lamentable. :'(

saraswati
2006-05-17, 06:55 PM
on Today at 3:40pm, saraswati wrote:
I do have a problem with people posting universal statements with assumptions that their opinions are truth and who back those assumptions up by insulting anyone who disagrees with their "universal truth". In my honest opinion, this happens more often with people who are posting criticism ("the complete lack of plot since strip #number whatever is proof that the Giant is coasting and has nothing to say, and people who are afraid to say that are suckup fanboys") . But it also does happen from the other side too ("This was great and whoever didn't like it doesn't understand humor/rich's goals/storytelling").


So - long story short - people who write negative comments need to separate their opinions from universal truth at each and every opportunity, but fanboys can ra-ra all day long.



Please check what you are quoting a little more closely Molonel. I made it very clear that people who are praising the comic also make claims as universal truth, and that I also disapprove of that. Granted, I also said that I thought that critics did that more often than praisers, but I stated that was my own opinion on the subject.

My post does not say what you claim it says. That's a clarification.

edit# added a word, feel free to guess

JoseB
2006-05-17, 06:55 PM
Why was the post with the link to the thread in the RPGHost community forums taken away?

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?t=43788

stevec
2006-05-17, 07:36 PM
One person has already said that if I didn't like the comics, I could ... you know ... do something else.

Doesn't that particular bit of wit apply equally well to those who don't like reading criticism about their favorite web comic on a forum which is evidently designed strictly for praising the creator?
I guess I am the person who you are referring to, so I will do you the courtesy of responding to you directly. I was suggesting that continuing to spend time on something that is annoying you when it is supposed to be a harmless diversion (at worst) or a thing that makes your day better (at best) is not a good or a healthy thing.

I don't come to the message boards to either mindlessly praise Rich or to read comments from people who do so. I come to these boards to effectively spend some time with people who share a common interest with me. Sometimes it's to discuss where the strip is going, or what happened in an episode, and sometimes its to discuss something completely unrelated on one of the other forums. Essentially, it's to hang out in a relaxed atmosphere with people with whom I share at least one common interest.

I think criticism of the strip can be a good and useful thing. There have been some plot lines that I haven't really thought were that interesting, and that's largely because Rich is writing to a larger audience than just me. Which is a good thing. However criticism that doesn't have a point to it is ultimately not going to get you anywhere, and frankly all it does is annoy the other people who don't agree with you.

I don't come here to see someone say over and over, that the strip sucks, use borderline profanity and be insulting to everyone who has been enjoying the strips recently. Calling someone a fanboy and using the terms you have been using is an insult: make no mistake!

When I suggested that you take a step away from here for a few weeks, it was not to say you should not read the message boards, but rather that it might be a good idea to get away from the whole comic for a while, because you (and some of the other posters as well) seem not to be enjoying reading it. When I really don't like something that I spend my free time with, I tend to not keep doing it.

That's what I'm saying.

We get the fact that you don't like the strip. We get the fact that you think anyone who does is a fanboy. I'm not here to insult you as a person, but I really suggest that you take a step back from what you're doing and consider if you would do the same thing in person that you're writing here.

It is a comic strip at the end of the day. A funny one on most days, but no one should get as ticked off about as you have been.

--Steve

Ted_Stryker
2006-05-17, 07:38 PM
Why was the post with the link to the thread in the RPGHost community forums taken away?

http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?t=43788
Good question, did a mod take it down or the original poster?

A careful reading of that thread will reveal that I made the "ask for a refund" point over at WebRPG, and that I advised replacing the word "suck" with "deteriorate" when molonel asked for opinions on his opening post here. But he is being true to himself with how he's carried himself here, I'll give him that. :)

rosebud
2006-05-17, 07:39 PM
Why do you, and several others, continue to assume that I want violence and action?Because I didn't? :) I only put my own preferences up so as to be fair to you when asking the question. My interest in asking was to see if there was any genre preference playing out.


I normally [i]love[i] the romantic parts of books and movies(I really like you've got mail). My problem is not with the subject matter, it is how this is being written out: slow and predictable. There really isn't much there despite page after page of drawings.I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I love some of the recent drawings and strips. :) (Not 100%, but I do enjoy them.)

Kanashimi
2006-05-17, 07:43 PM
Okay, so I have to admit that sequentially reading posts on the comic anywhere after about page 7 or 8 is really an interesting study in human psychology. Before about 7, everyone is talking about what they like about the comic, what was funny, or just saying "woot first page"

Then as people get a little more bored with re-re-re-re-reading the comic, they find little things to pick on about it, or compain that there isn't a new one, or compain about any number of things regarding this free comic.

This is absolutely not to insult or offend anyone, but everyone who has been complaining about OOTS, go back and look at this and any other long topics about the comics, especially when Rich has been "late"

It's really quite a fascinating look into the degeneration of politeness as a society.

So, this is a very serious sociological question that I'm thinking of writing a paper on...

To anyone who has been griping lately, or has posted something negative about the strip AFTER posting something positive, would you please IM me and tell me if similar things happen in your real-life relationships?

I'm talking friends, family, SOs. how things start off great, and they're the best person in the world, and then familiarity breeds contempt. I want to know if this really is just a phenomenom that happens when people feel more free and secure when behind a computer screen rather than face to face.

Thanks