The Protoss vs the Empire

[Executor]

The general consensus reached in my other thread, pitting the Protoss vs the Federation of Star Trek, is that the far more militarily-devoted Protoss would probably walk all over the Federation. Now let us pit my favourite sci-fi race against a far greater foe, the Galactic Empire Please note, that this thread will discount game balance mechanics and Expanded Universe bull****, our discussion should focus on the canon as seen in the Starcraft cutscenes and books and the canon seen in the Star Wars movies. That means that all those 'OMG UBER' Jedi from the Expanded Universe don't count for jack ****. The only Force-users the Empire should have are Palpatine and Vader.

Let us say that the Empire are moving into Protoss territory, extending their domain into the Koprulu Sector. The Protoss move to defend their holdings, operating from Shakuras and recently recaptured Aiur. I'd say the Carriers of the Protoss are at least as large as any Star Destroyer, and since canonically they carry photon cannons along with their Interceptor flights, they are fairly capable of going toe-to-toe with Destroyers. I know that, on the ground, the Zealots would carve a bloody swathe through the Stormtroopers, and Reaver artillery would at least be a problem for AT-AT assault walkers. Scouts and Corsairs seem vastly superior to TIEs as well, due to shielding, speed and advanced warp technology. Both factions are capable of glassing enemy planets (or 'Base Delta Zero' as die-hard Wars nerds have dubbed it. I prefer glassing). The main advantage I can see for the Empire is their huge numerical superiority.

I can't honestly say who'd win. What do you guys think?

[kpenguin]

EU is canon. Lucas said so.

[Dr._Weird]

Well, quite obviously, the 'Toss would walk all over the Empire in ground combat, till we bring leaders in.Vader and Palpatine could probably overpower the Protoss leaders- Zeratul would be able to put up a good fight, but I don't think he's a match for either of them really. So the only real challenge on ground comes if the Sith lords come down to wherever they're fighting.

In space I think things get more interesting. Tie fighters appear to be really, really fast in the original trilogy. I think they could outfly and outmaneuver a scout and a corsair, the latter only by a bit, but enough to make a difference. However, they're really fragile, as are their bomber counterparts. So it could go either way- the Protoss have a smaller amount of ships, and these are stronger but slower. The Empire has the reverse. I think Star Destroyers are a lot bigger than carriers, but nothing to really judge that on. Anyway, I think the Interceptors would cause some trouble, but once the ships got through to the carrier itself it wouldn't last that long, it's big enough to be effectively bombed and shot at by the Destroyers. Really it could go either way, but the Protoss should be able to win out due to stronger small ships, arbiter trickery, and, well, if they land a shuttle on board a Destroyer, especially if it has Dark Templars on it, the crew is ****ed.

I'm gonna give this to the Protoss, because they're awesome.

tl;dr: Protoss win on ground, things are more even in space but Protoss still win with tricky tactics.

[kpenguin]

Don't forget, Destroyers get TIE Fighters and each of their cannons delivers a payload equal to a tactical nuke. Also: the Empire has numbers that make the Zerg look like a small upstart civilization.

[Nibleswick]

Psst, we did this last week.
Look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55273)

[Logic]

Psst, we did this last week.
Look here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55273)

I thought so! But I was unable to find the thread, so I gave up on responding. But otherwise, what Nibleswick said.

[Winterwind]

There also is a collective "StarWars Vs."-thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52666). Pretty much any match-up about which we thought Star Wars did not necessarily win in a land-slide has been discussed over there, from the more obvious, like Star Trek or StarCraft, to much more obscure universes.

[LordVader]

This thread is ST vs 'Toss exclusively. Please take all others to the "SW vs ___" thread.

We also determined that the Culture is possibly the most unrealistic sci-fi world I've ever seen. Even worse then 40k and SW.

[bosssmiley]

EU is canon. Lucas said so.

Lucas also created Jar-Jar Binks (how quickly we forget).
I think his opinion after about 1984 can be safely discounted as the mercury fume-induced ravings of a lunatic. :smallamused:

Protoss vs. The Empire. Zealots vs. Stormtroopers. "En Taro Adun" vs. "Apology accepted Captain Needa."
Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.RuleOfCool) says it's too close to call.

[Emperor Tippy]

I give it to the protoss. They have superior FTL tech, would crush on the ground, have no supply lines, and have unlimited reinforcements at any point in space.

They warp a scout into a system, see how heavily defended it is, and warp out. Once they find an undefended/lightly defended world they Warp in their whole fleet, glass the world in a matter of miniutes, and warp out.

Get a couple of Dark Templars into the empire and have them go to work as assassins.

[Leon]

HAh, suits my Trade Federation thinking from the other thread

Tho a Star Destroyer is going to stand upto a lot more punishment than a Startrek tin can would

[Emperor Tippy]

HAh, suits my Trade Federation thinking from the other thread

Tho a Star Destroyer is going to stand upto a lot more punishment than a Startrek tin can would

Doesn't matter. The Protoss would never engage the Empire in battle. They would just warp around glassing worlds. And when they engage a Star Destroyer the Protoss will outnumber them a hundred to 1 or better. Thats enough firepower to glass a planet, I seriously doubt that a Star Destroyer can withstand that kind of barrage.

[Leon]

not my point, my point being that they are better off than the other discussions ships

[Emperor Tippy]

not my point, my point being that they are better off than the other discussions ships

Yeah, pretty much.

[Machiavelli]

Doesn't matter. The Protoss would never engage the Empire in battle. They would just warp around glassing worlds. And when they engage a Star Destroyer the Protoss will outnumber them a hundred to 1 or better. Thats enough firepower to glass a planet, I seriously doubt that a Star Destroyer can withstand that kind of barrage.

You must be joking. The Emipire outnumbers the toss about a billion to one, not even exagerating. There are enough Empire planets that the Protoss would probably all die of trigger-finger cramps before the Empire even noticed that one ten-thousandth of its planets were gone. While the protoss fleet might be superior in combat (which I disagree with, but for the sake of arguement) they would still lose because there are just too many Empire troops.
Empire wins without even noticing. Toss all die and no one notices (or cares) either.

[Emperor Tippy]

You must be joking. The Emipire outnumbers the toss about a billion to one, not even exagerating. There are enough Empire planets that the Protoss would probably all die of trigger-finger cramps before the Empire even noticed that one ten-thousandth of its planets were gone. While the protoss fleet might be superior in combat (which I disagree with, but for the sake of arguement) they would still lose because there are just too many Empire troops.
Empire wins without even noticing. Toss all die and no one notices (or cares) either.

The Protoss own half a galaxy and live for a thousand years or so, they are considered young if under 300. The Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers. Let's give the Protoss a thousand carriers (an incredible small number but thats ok). A 10 or fewer can glass a planet in around 2 hours. So 20 can do it in an hour. 50 can do it in 15 miniutes.

Let's go with fleets of 50 carriers and call it an hour per planet to glass them. Thats 480 planets per day. The Empire is what, 2 million worlds? That takes 4,167 days. Or a little under 12 years. In under 12 years every planet in the empire is glassed. And that whole time Dark Templars have been assassinating high value targets and sabatoging the empires plans.

The weakest Protoss Zealot is equal to an average Jedi, and their are millions of Zealots.

[Solo]

You must be joking. The Emipire outnumbers the toss about a billion to one, not even exagerating. There are enough Empire planets that the Protoss would probably all die of trigger-finger cramps before the Empire even noticed that one ten-thousandth of its planets were gone. While the protoss fleet might be superior in combat (which I disagree with, but for the sake of arguement) they would still lose because there are just too many Empire troops.
Empire wins without even noticing. Toss all die and no one notices (or cares) either.

Stormtroopers can't hit anything, and the 'toss have superior ground forces. I'd reassess that statement if i were you.

[LordVader]

Stormtroopers can't hit anything, and the 'toss have superior ground forces. I'd reassess that statement if i were you.

Please. Stormtroopers are incredibly well trained, professional soldiers. The only reason they never hit anything is because they are always shooting at plot-central characters.

Also, the Imperial Fleet has more then Star Destroyers, you know. 25,000 Star Destroyers, each with 60 cannons that hit with the yield of a thermonuclear warhead.

And then you have at least 500,000 various support ships, all of which will have at least 1 weapon capable of hitting with the yield of a thermonuclear warhead. Suddenly, Toss odds don't look so good.

Also: Star Wars planets have planetary shields and planetary turbolasers. They're not helpless like SC planets are, indeed, they're more dangerous then a fleet. They can easily defend themselves long enough for the Fleet to arrive to mop up the Toss attackers.

[Malpik Azhurer]

A 10 or fewer can glass a planet in around 2 hours. So 20 can do it in an hour. 50 can do it in 15 miniutes.

In that you are not taking in acount planetary shields and planetary defenses,
that would slow the protoss "glassing" long enough for at least a moderate Empire reinforcement force to arrive and protect the planet.

Taking in acount what has been said before, The protoss may have a chance in ground fight, but in space the balance inclince to the Empire.

[Talkkno]

I'm pretty sure a Dark trooper could hold its own fairily well agaisnt zealots, considring 3 or so took down a crew of a Cap ship that has crewmembers in the thousands, and a couple dozen took down a entire rebel base single handily..

[Counterpower]

The planetary defenses are what the Corsairs and their oh-so-helpful Disruption Webs are for. They don't last forever, but they last long enough for the Mothership's planet cracker to handle the issue.

And on the ground, "may" have a "chance"? I put the odds significantly higher against the Empire on the ground. I'm going with Tippy here in saying that Zealots are incredibly powerful, and they're the LEAST of the Protoss ground forces. Reavers would tear Empire armor to tiny pieces. Dark Templar are freaking invisible, and equal to Zealots in general combat ability. High Templar can create storms of devastating psionic power, that eerily resembles Force Lightning, except a box of it instead of a line. Could that mean that the High Templar are as capable as a Sith Lord? The only person that would be any problem at all is Darth Vader, and even he can be overwhelmed.

I'm not sure about the space battle.

[Talkkno]

The planetary defenses are what the Corsairs and their oh-so-helpful Disruption Webs are for. They don't last forever, but they last long enough for the Mothership's planet cracker to handle the issue.

And on the ground, "may" have a "chance"? I put the odds significantly higher against the Empire on the ground. I'm going with Tippy here in saying that Zealots are incredibly powerful, and they're the LEAST of the Protoss ground forces. Reavers would tear Empire armor to tiny pieces. Dark Templar are freaking invisible, and equal to Zealots in general combat ability. High Templar can create storms of devastating psionic power, that eerily resembles Force Lightning, except a box of it instead of a line. Could that mean that the High Templar are as capable as a Sith Lord? The only person that would be any problem at all is Darth Vader, and even he can be overwhelmed.


Prove that corsairs are able to break open a plantary sheilds. I guess you havent heard of Dark troppers , the Empire has crystal gravefeild traps that dectect cloak units, Paply created force storms that can take down a super star destroyer.

[BRC]

I wouldn't go so far as to call the stormtroopers "Highly Trained", their definetally grunt troops.
However, I think that they are definetally more skilled then they are portrayed as in the movies, in which they are at about the competancy level of a drunk blind guy.
Of course, with numbers like that it definetally varies, some are proably vetern experts, while some are about as accurate as the movie shows them as, although I don't buy the idea that every stormtrooper in the movies happened to be a novice while the skilled soliders were off-screen.

[Talkkno]

I wouldn't go so far as to call the stormtroopers "Highly Trained", their definetally grunt troops.
However, I think that they are definetally more skilled then they are portrayed as in the movies, in which they are at about the competancy level of a drunk blind guy.
Of course, with numbers like that it definetally varies, some are proably vetern experts, while some are about as accurate as the movie shows them as, although I don't buy the idea that every stormtrooper in the movies happened to be a novice while the skilled soliders were off-screen.
"Stormtroopers were the elite shock troops" From wookiepedia.
No, these are the grunt troops are these guys.
Lucas just cound't afford two different coustumes I'd reckon.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Imperial_Trooper_Deployment.jpg
And don't forget went they went threw the Rebel troppers in the start of the New Hope, on Death Star Tarkin wanetd them alive, on Bespin Vader was hearding them,