How Powerful is a Sorcerer with Second Attack?

[Floorlock]

How powerful/ overpowered would it be if there were a Sorcererous origin that got Extra Attack at level 6?


I'm working with a player to potentially have a Sorcerer that does just that.

Normally....acquiring extra attack isn't something typically assigned to full casters.

However, There are 2 Bard Subclasses that get it, There is a way for Warlocks to get a version of it, War Clerics can somewhat poorly imitate it, and there's EVEN a Wizard subclass that gets it. So, I somewhat find myself wondering if it's THAT taboo for a full caster to acquire such a thing. The only thing....is that they never wind up giving such a feature to Sorcerers. The very first version of the Favored Soul had it....but, it has been long since scrapped.

My question revolves around whether this is for balance or flavor reasons. Is it because of the eventually discovered maximum synergy between Paladins and Sorcerers? Does allowing a second attack on a Sorcerer subclass exacerbate the Paladin Sorcerer situation by allowing a character to have, at level 20, Permanent Flight, 9th Level Spells, Good AC, Powerful Smiting Melee options, 2 attacks to ensure melee damage, and Metamagic?

I just want to know how out of whack the power scale might go if I allow a Sorcerous Origin that acquires an extra attack at Level 6 in the same manner as a bard.....if at all.

Anybody have any thoughts or experience with any of that?

To Clarify: I'm NOT asking about whether or not the original version of the favored soul was OP. I know people have opinions about some of that. I'm specifically asking about one of it's features...the extra attack. Essentially....imagine if the original Favored Soul did NOT acquire the extra spells known....but, the other features were the same....such as the extra attack and flight. Let's say in it's place...it worked more akin to the Xanathar's version where you simply get to pick from the Cleric spell list. So the main difference is that it's 6th level feature grants an extra attack. Would that throw the power balance out of whack?

[AugustNights]

Seems like you have the gist of it.
Besides potential abuse with Paladin multiclassing, it should be fine.

Played straight, sorcerers will typically not want to be making multiple attacks per round, their cantrips will likely be a more reliable source of damage.

Played as a gish, it'll be a fun little addition, and as you've mentioned Bards & Warlocks get this benefit.

[Silkensword]

I believe it's more of a case that there isn't really a subclass for sorcerers yet that really focuses melee. Extra attack not being given to sorcerers isn't an issue of it being too powerful- it's an issue of it not really having a place in any of the existing subclasses. If you wanna create one, I can imagine a spellsword sorcerer who has an intrinsic link to the fervor of battle that awakes the magic powers within- there's nothing really i see that would break with this. They could even use magic to control their weapon and have it fight for them, to let them keep the advantage of being able to stay distant from combat.

[ProsecutorGodot]

As a single class option, it would probably need more adjustments to make the extra attack worth anything. Giving sorcerer's extra attack by itself would be pretty laughable if they didn't get tools to enable survivability in melee like Bladedancer does.

As a multiclass option, it would be pretty insane. Sorcadin already have tremendous potential for damage without taking 5 levels of Paladin for extra attack enabled smites. It's probably not going to completely destroy the games balance. The fact that it enables a spell heavy Sorcadin build that doesn't have to settle for the bards debatably lackluster spell list or Warlocks terrible spell economy on top of gaining metamagic usage is scary... Assuming your game reaches beyond 14th level where this sort of build would really start to steamroll the monsters.

It's a complicated issue, I think the original iteration of the Divine Soul was only so poorly received because it just gave away a lot for free, and just adding extra attack to the current version doesn't do nearly enough (unless you multiclass paladin).

Give it a try, run a few one shot games or encounters with it and see if it stirs up any trouble. I think even in the worst case scenario the most you'll have trouble with is a slightly stronger Sorcadin.

[CTurbo]

It's not really going to be THAT powerful considering that Booming Blade would still be a better option in most cases between levels 6-10 and then definitely after level 11. I say go for it if you want. I think there would need to be a way of getting extra damage on attack much like the Bladelock and Bladesinger to make it worthwhile though.

[Rebonack]

Considering that any Sorcerer can quicken Green Flame Blade if they really want a melee option?

It wouldn't break anything.

[Cerefel]

I think a gishy sorcerer subclass could actually give them a niche where they excel as much as or more than other single-classed casters, which is something the sorcerer definitely needs.

[Crgaston]

It’d be super fun on a Sorcerogue. With 5 levels of Swashbuckler, one could get 2 chances at Sneak Attack, Quicken a Booming Blade, Disengage for free, and still have a reaction for Uncanny Dodge or Absorb Elements.

[Corran]

My question revolves around whether this is for balance or flavor reasons.
Flavor reasons.


Is it because of the eventually discovered maximum synergy between Paladins and Sorcerers?
No. It's a powerful multiclass but not for the reasons most people assume.


Does allowing a second attack on a Sorcerer subclass exacerbate the Paladin Sorcerer situation by allowing a character to have, at level 20, Permanent Flight, 9th Level Spells, Good AC, Powerful Smiting Melee options, 2 attacks to ensure melee damage, and Metamagic?
No. Contrary to popular belief, which as far as I understand it, is that getting an extra attack from a sorcerer subclass is some kind of shortcut (it's not...), this isn't anything to write home about. Delaying my fullcaster progression by 2-3 levels in order to boost my AC and to be able to spend spells slot on smite, provided of course that I have to be in melee and use a weapon, is not a good plan. Particularly if you start thinking the cost in feats, stat points, etc, that you have to pay in order to try and make your character as capable as possible of something like that. A singleclass bladesinger or 1 level dip in hexblade accomplish a touch of gishiness much more efficiently. Because such gishes are meant to frontline as a last resort option, and the ones I mentioned accomplish that much cheaper and/or more effectively than a pal2/sorc18 (even with the extra attack).


To Clarify: I'm NOT asking about whether or not the original version of the favored soul was OP. I know people have opinions about some of that. I'm specifically asking about one of it's features...the extra attack. Essentially....imagine if the original Favored Soul did NOT acquire the extra spells known....but, the other features were the same....such as the extra attack and flight. Let's say in it's place...it worked more akin to the Xanathar's version where you simply get to pick from the Cleric spell list. So the main difference is that it's 6th level feature grants an extra attack. Would that throw the power balance out of whack?
Let you player try it. It wont break anything. IMO it is not even an optimal build.

[Derpaligtr]

The original 5e playtest sorcerer had extra attack or whatever and was esaentially a arcabe cleric.

They dropped it because of flavor reasons.

Not that this matters, just thought it was interesting that someone wanta to go back to that playtest sorcerer.

[rbstr]

Extra attack is somewhat stronger on Sorcs than other casters because of Quicken in particular. But I don't think there's a fundamental issue in having a subclass that gives it to them.

[Citan]

How powerful/ overpowered would it be if there were a Sorcererous origin that got Extra Attack at level 6?


I'm working with a player to potentially have a Sorcerer that does just that.

Normally....acquiring extra attack isn't something typically assigned to full casters.

However, There are 2 Bard Subclasses that get it, There is a way for Warlocks to get a version of it, War Clerics can somewhat poorly imitate it, and there's EVEN a Wizard subclass that gets it. So, I somewhat find myself wondering if it's THAT taboo for a full caster to acquire such a thing. The only thing....is that they never wind up giving such a feature to Sorcerers. The very first version of the Favored Soul had it....but, it has been long since scrapped.

My question revolves around whether this is for balance or flavor reasons. Is it because of the eventually discovered maximum synergy between Paladins and Sorcerers? Does allowing a second attack on a Sorcerer subclass exacerbate the Paladin Sorcerer situation by allowing a character to have, at level 20, Permanent Flight, 9th Level Spells, Good AC, Powerful Smiting Melee options, 2 attacks to ensure melee damage, and Metamagic?

I just want to know how out of whack the power scale might go if I allow a Sorcerous Origin that acquires an extra attack at Level 6 in the same manner as a bard.....if at all.

Anybody have any thoughts or experience with any of that?

To Clarify: I'm NOT asking about whether or not the original version of the favored soul was OP. I know people have opinions about some of that. I'm specifically asking about one of it's features...the extra attack. Essentially....imagine if the original Favored Soul did NOT acquire the extra spells known....but, the other features were the same....such as the extra attack and flight. Let's say in it's place...it worked more akin to the Xanathar's version where you simply get to pick from the Cleric spell list. So the main difference is that it's 6th level feature grants an extra attack. Would that throw the power balance out of whack?
Hi!

For single-class Sorcerer, it's not overpowered at all. It basically allows an alternative when players want some gish fluff, or something to build upon if you really want to make a "gish Sorcerer" for some reason with spells like Shadow Blade... But in terms of power, I don't see any kind of build that could reach or overcome what a Sorcerer can do with weapon cantrips and his spells.

For multiclass, it would be powerful, but not overpowered. See below.

As a single class option, it would probably need more adjustments to make the extra attack worth anything. Giving sorcerer's extra attack by itself would be pretty laughable if they didn't get tools to enable survivability in melee like Bladedancer does.

As a multiclass option, it would be pretty insane. Sorcadin already have tremendous potential for damage without taking 5 levels of Paladin for extra attack enabled smites. It's probably not going to completely destroy the games balance. The fact that it enables a spell heavy Sorcadin build that doesn't have to settle for the bards debatably lackluster spell list or Warlocks terrible spell economy on top of gaining metamagic usage is scary... Assuming your game reaches beyond 14th level where this sort of build would really start to steamroll the monsters.

Those both statements are extremely debatable to say the least, if not wildly inaccurate.

First, all slots between long-casters "have the same flavor". If you pick two levels of Paladin mainly for the ability to use Divine Smite, it means you plan on using most of your slots for that. So you don't care what spells you could use with.

Second, not only does Bard with Extra Attack get most of interesting spells for a gish build (like Greater Invisibility), thanks to Magical Secrets he can take any he wishes at level 10 (Haste, Circle of Power, Shadow Blade, Mirror Image, etc). In addition to being able to get Simulacrum through Magic Secrets much earlier than Sorcerer (Wish), as well as Foresight for much, *much* better overall damage.

Third, Bards with Extra Attack, contrarily to Sorcerer, get plenty of features to help being a great gish: armor proficiency (of course redundant in case of Paladin dip), Bardic Inspiration used for extra resilience, or extra accuracy, or extra damage that recharge on a short rest (thanks Leomund's Tiny Hut ritual, possibly Catnap, possibly Magic Secret Rope Trick), as well as Expertise and Jack of All Trades that can be put to good use to avoid nasty effects (restrain, prone, losing position), control enemy position (classic Grapple trick) or generate advantage (classic Shove trick).

Same can be said with Warlock: sure, the low number of slots makes it a pain to manage especially at low levels... But you get many great features to compensate, especially as a Hexblade. And there are many ways for a party to secure short rests. So in a party with at least a Bard/Wizard (spells) and Monk (strong incitation to short rest), you should make it a priority. Meaning in turn you get at least as much nova power as a Palasorc.

The big advantage of Sorcadin as in "weapon and magic gish" is the ability to Quicken a "normal" spell or cantrip while also using a cantrip as an action, meaning you can act as a martial and as a caster in the same turn, more easily than anyone else.
And you can possibly unload big damage by stacking 2 instances of "weapon cantrip + smite" in the same turn, but that already uses up much of your resources.
Getting Extra Attack would aggravate the latter but also means you are that much weaker for the remaining of the day. It's a trade off.

So Sorcadin certainly has the best potential versatility to have the best tools available whatever the situation, at least when you also choose versatile spells. ^^

But as far as...

1. Playing a dual-classed Paladin with upped sustained damage (relying on weapon attacks)?
It's hard to beat Paladin / Whispers Bard (Psychic Blade ending close to a full Sneak Attack at level 15, 5 times per short rest, and ability to upcast Shadow Blade or Tenser's Transformation, and more slots to smite, and you can get Spiritual Weapon too like a Divine Soul Sorcerer. ;))...
2. Playing a dual-classed Paladin with biggest nova smite (so smite on every hit whenever possible, putting aside hit chance)?
- For the "all in one round then be useless" kind, Hexblade Pact Warlock is probably the best (Blade + Thirsting Blade + Lifedrinker + Smite Invocation + upcast Elemental Weapon or Shadow Blade), although it can be worth in a party that masters short-rest set-up (just having a Catnap, a Rope Trick and Leomund's is enough to secure minimum 2 short rests usually).
- Next quickest to deplete would be a Swords Bard (dual-wielding + Haste, 4 attacks and smites in a single turn).
- Next quickest to deplete would be a specific Sorcerer (Quickened GreenFlameBlade + Twin Booming Blade with upcast Shadow Blade), - - Next would be the Valor Bard (Battle Magic means weapon cantrip + bonus action attack: less nova per round, much more sustainable, and can be stacked with upcast Elemental Weapon / Shadow Blade or even Haste).