Human Fighter build advice

[Jcp1195]

Hello all, thanks for stopping to help out. I am a brand new player to 3.5 though I have played a bit of Pathfinder and I’ve extensively played Fifth Edition, I realize I’m in a whole new realm here and need a bit of help.

The game we’ll be playing begins with our characters traversing a Labyrinth, as a right of passage for their society. I’ll be playing with either a Gunslinger or Ranger, and a Rogue so I figured I’d do Sword and Board with heavy armor and try to be the team’s Meatwall and primary damage dealer.

As a part of the game we all received a free “heritage feat” and mine was Aberant Blood. I’ve done a little research into this and have found that Inhuman Reach is a pretty good thing to get but beyond that I’m a little clueless.

Any and all advice would be appreciated, thanks!

[daremetoidareyo]

What's your concept?

[Jcp1195]

Right now all I really have is that I’m an Aberrant Blooded Human and I want to be a frontline fighter using sword and board. Other than that I don’t really know that much about this edition so I don’t know what really makes for a good fighter.

[ViperMagnum357]

First off, straight Fighter is pretty hard to remain competitive with outside Gestalt/Tristalt, so keep that in mind-fortunately, no full casters in the party. Second, the Fighter lacks any way of redirecting attacks outside of reach, unlike a Knight. That means at medium size, you will have a hard time blocking anything larger than a 15x15 ft tunnel.

Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach are a good start if you are not going to get a large race: for a battlefield controller/pseudo-meat shield, further improving that with a reach weapon that can attack adjacent targets is the next logical step-either a Spiked Chain from the SRD, or a Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona. It will cost you a feat in EWP, but you should have those in abundance.

Next is doing something with your swift actions, since you are not looking at TOB. That means getting the Zhentarim Soldier ACF, which caps at Fighter 9-controlling opponents through fear with swift actions is solid. You will need to expend another feat on the Imperious Command feat from Drow of the Underdark, but that is about the only reason to take Fighter past level 4. Do not forget to look up the Dead Levels web enhancement from WOTC, which gives at least something for your odd levels.

Another ACF you can look for is Dungeoncrasher from Dungeonscape, which works well with two-handers like a Spiked Chain and the tactical feats from Complete Warrior. It can make Bullrushes a viable addition to your repertoire of Tripping and Attacks of Opportunity for reach weapons, and further improve battlefield control.

If you are dead set on going Fighter 20, the only viable option I have found is the Kensai Fighter variant from Dragon Magazine #310. You specialize in 1 weapon, giving up many proficiencies and effectively trade your first level feat for an exotic proficiency for a weapon to specialize in. You get a +1 to hit/damage bonus at first level, increasing to +2 at Fighter 5, and +1 each five levels thereafter. It is the only scaling bonus a Fighter can get besides Feats and Dead Level bonuses. You restrict your bonus feat list rather severely, but you get access to a few new feats, including the ability to take a penalty for extra attacks during a full attack. Niche, but something to consider.

If you still want the Sword 'n Board feel, you can always take a buckler-you will not get the shield bonus when using that hand to attack, but you get all the other effects and it still works for things like the Block Arrow feat.

[daremetoidareyo]

aberration blood has a number of options when you take the feat. one of the options is to have a tail. You can take the prehensile tail feat (savage species) and use your tail as a hand, if you take the two weapon fighting prerequisite. If you're two weapon fighting, put some shield spikes on that shield and you can make shield bash attacks as an offhand attack and do a bit more damage.

If you have that tail and you aren't interested in it being prehensile, you can take exotic weapon proficiency (tail blade) (savage species again) to get an extra attack.

There are a number of aberration blood follow up feats that are good.

If you are committing to inhuman reach as a feat, the next two best aberrant feats are starspawn and deep spawn. Both in lords of madness. Starspawn grants cold resistance 5 and a the ability to fly for 1+ con mod rounds. That is really helpful. Deepspawn gives you two extra tentacle attacks per round at a -5 penalty. Caution, you will be ugly. I wouldn't get more aberration feats than that unless you are playing something eberron friendly. In that case, you can take aberrant dragonmark from the eberron campaign setting to get an OK spell like ability, according to a web update, they are allowed to count as aberrant feats. I suggest charm person, but tenser's floating disk is so weird. Here's a fun link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385848-Disciple-of-Tenser-A-Guide-to-Maximum-Tenser-s-Floating-Disk-Utility

[Demidos]

Hello all, thanks for stopping to help out. I am a brand new player to 3.5 though I have played a bit of Pathfinder and I’ve extensively played Fifth Edition, I realize I’m in a whole new realm here and need a bit of help.

The game we’ll be playing begins with our characters traversing a Labyrinth, as a right of passage for their society. I’ll be playing with either a Gunslinger or Ranger, and a Rogue so I figured I’d do Sword and Board with heavy armor and try to be the team’s Meatwall and primary damage dealer.

As a part of the game we all received a free “heritage feat” and mine was Aberant Blood. I’ve done a little research into this and have found that Inhuman Reach is a pretty good thing to get but beyond that I’m a little clueless.

Any and all advice would be appreciated, thanks!


Lets see...

Classes--
If you want to play a fighting based class that is a meatwall/DPS, Crusader is quite good, although it is definitely a bit more complex than just a straight fighter. You can find this class in the book "Tome of Battle", which basically gives melee different combat options (similar to spells).
A straight paladin with battle blessing and/or the variant that gives bardic music instead of smites makes a pretty good source of damage for such a mundane party as you seem to have.
If you want to be able to move and attack people who are not nearby, a lion-totem barbarian (barbarian variant) gives you pounce, giving you a full attack at the end of the charge.
Fighter gets a lot of feats, but is typically weaker than the other classes will be. If you do play a fighter, there is a variant called Zhentarim fighter, which gives you intimidation skills, and another called dungeoncrasher, which boosts your damage. Together those will make a pretty decent

Feats --
Inhuman reach is pretty good because it means you can hit them before they hit you. This probably means you're taking combat reflexes.
Power attack is pretty much central to all melee builds, and grants damage in exchange for accuracy.
Wild Cohort gives you a powerful minion/animal companion, which might help you tank.
You can skim through other feats here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400603-Best-Feats-of-3-5).
Jotunbrud regional feat gives you +4 to most combat rolls, it can be taken even outside the region if you are not playing in forgotten realms/eberron (cant remember which).

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A very simple possible simple build --
Jotunbrud Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Fighter 20
Feats: Combat reflexes, inhuman reach, improved bull rush, power attack, Jotunbrud, other feats as desired

This build has three main draws -- it hits enemies before they hit him, it can knock them back which will deal fairly high damage, and it can intimidate enemies easily.

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I'd like to also add that you should always build to the power level of your group, because it is no fun for you if the DM can't challenge you without killing them, and it's no fun for them if you take all the spotlight. Depending on your group, you can incorporate more or less of the suggestions above -- even if you've already introduced the character, I assure you no DM is ever going to say no to making your character WEAKER in the name of party cohesion. Most DMs in my experience also tend to be okay with making a character stronger as long as it doesn't ruin party balance.

Best of luck.

[Jcp1195]

Alright guys, thanks a lot for the advice thus far, I did a little more reading on my own and think I found a way to make 20 Fighter a bit more viable? It was something to the tune of combining Dungeon Crasher, Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Overpowering Attack And Leaping Attack into something powerful but I’m wondering if that kind of thing would be good enough to help keep my party alive.

Follow up question: would Dragon Shaman be a more competitively valid class for the kind of thing I want to do?

[daremetoidareyo]

Alright guys, thanks a lot for the advice thus far, I did a little more reading on my own and think I found a way to make 20 Fighter a bit more viable? It was something to the tune of combining Dungeon Crasher, Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Overpowering Attack And Leaping Attack into something powerful but I’m wondering if that kind of thing would be good enough to help keep my party alive.

Follow up question: would Dragon Shaman be a more competitively valid class for the kind of thing I want to do?

dragon shaman is complete trash. If you white out all dragonshaman content from 3.5, the entire game becomes better.

[ViperMagnum357]

Alright guys, thanks a lot for the advice thus far, I did a little more reading on my own and think I found a way to make 20 Fighter a bit more viable? It was something to the tune of combining Dungeon Crasher, Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Overpowering Attack And Leaping Attack into something powerful but I’m wondering if that kind of thing would be good enough to help keep my party alive.

Follow up question: would Dragon Shaman be a more competitively valid class for the kind of thing I want to do?

Shock Trooper is the core of most two-hander direct damage builds, with Leap Attack being the first multiplier available for a ground pounder, and Spirited Charge for mounted chargers. Frenzied Berserker is often taken in Gestalt for the extra multipliers: apart from that, most of the worthwhile damage bonuses are magic, like the Valorous weapon quality. Overpowering attack is a waste, since Full-round actions are compatible with almost nothing worthwhile: you are looking for Pounce, preferably as a 1-level dip in Barbarian with the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion.

All this will push into the Uber-Charger archetype, rather than the defensive variant you addressed earlier. You can sort of have your cake and eat it too by building around the Spiked Chain: which provides Reach, Trip, Disarm, and Sunder while still being a two-hander that can attack close/adjacent targets.

[Jcp1195]

Shock Trooper is the core of most two-hander direct damage builds, with Leap Attack being the first multiplier available for a ground pounder, and Spirited Charge for mounted chargers. Frenzied Berserker is often taken in Gestalt for the extra multipliers: apart from that, most of the worthwhile damage bonuses are magic, like the Valorous weapon quality. Overpowering attack is a waste, since Full-round actions are compatible with almost nothing worthwhile: you are looking for Pounce, preferably as a 1-level dip in Barbarian with the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion.

All this will push into the Uber-Charger archetype, rather than the defensive variant you addressed earlier. You can sort of have your cake and eat it too by building around the Spiked Chain: which provides Reach, Trip, Disarm, and Sunder while still being a two-hander that can attack close/adjacent targets.

So spike chain is a one handed weapon correct? Would it be beneficial along with all that charge support to find a way to be Large get a shield with Bashing spikes?

[ViperMagnum357]

So spike chain is a one handed weapon correct? Would it be beneficial along with all that charge support to find a way to be Large get a shield with Bashing spikes?

Spiked Chain is a two-hander; the one-handed version is the Spinning Sword. So the Spiked Chain allows use of a charging build, while also providing battlefield control options. Most of the charging stuff, like the damage multiplier for Power Attack and the Bullrushing work only or better with a two-hander.

[Particle_Man]

I would recommend against the Frenzied Berzerker for a starting character. It can lead to you attacking your friends if you are not careful and you want to protect your party, not kill them.

I would second the Crusader. They are good meat shields.

[Jcp1195]

Alright guys, all great advice, thank you.

Let's change gears for a second. One of my favorite builds for 5e was a Two-Weapon fighting Champion Fighter, would there be a way I could recreate something like that? I was reading Dual-Wielding Kukris would make for a good Crit build but is there any special way I need to build that kind of character? Like Finesse over Strength or would the be a class better fitting that fighting?

[Mordaedil]

People have mentioned Crusader, but I tend to think Warblade is a lot more supportive and gives you a ton of flexibility in what kind of character you want to play. You can start focused on axes, but as you find magical longswords, you can change your character to specialize in longswords instead, by spending an hour training with a longsword. It also supports the dual-wielding thing pretty well.

If you are dead set on a dexterity build, going with Swashbuckler isn't a bad investment. If you want to be a critical hit focused character like the 5th edition champion, go with either kukris, scimitars or a falchion and take 7 levels (or 9 if you like using whirlwind attack a lot) in the Weapon Master (Kensai) prestige class.

Getting the weapons keened or taking improved critical puts the threat range at 15-20, while ki critical puts it at 13-20, allowing you to threaten critical hits at rolls of 13 or higher. Note that threatening criticals isn't quite the same as getting criticals.

[Ethernil]

Finesse builds are generally a trap for fighter type characters. They are mostly used by skill monkey builds with precision damage abilities like sneak attack. Easiest, simplest and pretty effective build would be warblade 20 if you have access to the tome of battle book. Focus on tiger claw maneuvers and stances for dual wield and yes a couple of keen wounding kukris would be ideal. Generally tome of battle classes are hard to build wrong, just pick what looks cool and you get to roleplay stuff like: i perform a triple spin jump and on the peak i slice through the demon's neck and kill it instantly.

[Jcp1195]

Finesse builds are generally a trap for fighter type characters. They are mostly used by skill monkey builds with precision damage abilities like sneak attack. Easiest, simplest and pretty effective build would be warblade 20 if you have access to the tome of battle book. Focus on tiger claw maneuvers and stances for dual wield and yes a couple of keen wounding kukris would be ideal. Generally tome of battle classes are hard to build wrong, just pick what looks cool and you get to roleplay stuff like: i perform a triple spin jump and on the peak i slice through the demon's neck and kill it instantly.

Okay thanks, that helps a lot. Thankfully my friend has every book on PDF and shared with the group. We have access to pretty much everything but Homebrew, Dragon Magazine, and Psionics are out. I'll definitely look into the warblade.

[Fizban]

Meatwall and primary damage dealer are somewhat mutually exclusive- if you want the most damage, especially by char-op standards, you want a two-handed weapon, and that means no shield (though you can recover a lot of that AC just by taking Improved Buckler Defense). I would hold off on crazy char-op builds until you know the builds of the other players. Just because some tables think one-rounding level appropriate enemies is fine, doesn't mean the rest of the party will.

"Shield build" isn't much of a thing. There's a feat for a bit of TWF without the dex requirement, and a couple feats for tripping or dazing, but shockingly enough there's not much support for shields boosting your offense. The main benefit of a shield is and has always been a great big chunk of AC. In a normal game, keeping your AC up so it takes more attacks to kill you is perfectly fine. Tactical positioning allows you to stop allies from being attacked or get them the +4 soft cover bonus by standing in the way, and the meatwall role is fulfilled by doing that alone- DPS is secondary, so the fact that you're not dealing zomg damage is perfectly fine. What to do with all those feats? Whatever you want, just get it out of your head that a meatwall is supposed to be primary DPS. You can load up on dragonmarks or Ancestral Relic or both melee and ranged weapon masteries or various defensive feats, or yes, crazy maneuver combos. If you actually want to specialize in being hard to hit, you take Combat Expertise, and a PrC that gives an AC bonus.

The feats which everyone loves to hate, which are always my first recommendation, are the Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB2) line. A total of +3 attack and +4 damage is better than rage, never runs out, doesn't care about how many hands you're using, and stacks with rage if you want to pick that up anyway. Particularly if you decide you want dual kukri crits: crit build wants flat damage bonuses (because they get multiplied on crits), and want as much attack bonus as possible (so your lower bonus attacks will hit and confirm crits), and you get the full bonus on both weapons.

"Finesse" is not a supported build in 3.5- you can spend a bunch of feats to try and convert all your melee to dex, but If you want to do melee you should just be using strength. You take exactly as much dex as you need to qualify for the amount of TWF you want, and no more.

Now, all of that said, if you're actually in a game where a basic fighter won't cut it, the next step is Warblade. Since Warblade flat out rips off the Fighter's only unique ability (access to Weapon Spec, and through that Weapon Mastery), and they have maneuvers for stuff like multiple attacks after moving plus other stuff, that's generally the way to go.

There's a secret tech in Warblade there for the dual kurki crit build that makes it better against everything: the Blood in the Water stance gives you an unlimited stacking bonus that goes up every time you crit. But crits don't work on a ton of creatures you say? Wrong! When you roll a threat and confirm it you get a crit, period- it's just that some creatures are immune to the extra damage from the crit. Blood in the Water doesn't care, so you gain benefits from crits even against "crit immune" foes. And once again, since what crit build wants most is raw attack bonus to make every threat an easily confirmed crit, your crits feed into more crits. It's not like crazy OP or anything, but if you really want to play a dual kukri crit build, you want Warblade.

[Jcp1195]

Thank you, Fizban that all helps me immensely.

I like the Blood in the Water idea and I think I might build toward that. Is there any way to get around the Critical immunity from Undead, Constructs, etc.? I know there are things like Ghost Touch and Dragonfire Strike but is there any real way to get around that glaring issue except for throwing myself against the wall until it breaks?

[Ethernil]

Thank you, Fizban that all helps me immensely.

I like the Blood in the Water idea and I think I might build toward that. Is there any way to get around the Critical immunity from Undead, Constructs, etc.? I know there are things like Ghost Touch and Dragonfire Strike but is there any real way to get around that glaring issue except for throwing myself against the wall until it breaks?

Weapon crystals, greater demolition allows you to crit constructs and greater truedeath allows crit on undead. 6k gold for the former and 10k for the latter. There are also some buffs but you need a spellcaster to use them on you and that means using up their turn which is rarely worth it.

[Darrin]

Weapon crystals, greater demolition allows you to crit constructs and greater truedeath allows crit on undead. 6k gold for the former and 10k for the latter. There are also some buffs but you need a spellcaster to use them on you and that means using up their turn which is rarely worth it.

Deathstrike Bracers (5000 GP, MIC) lets you bypass crit-immunity 3 rounds per day against any creature type, but you have to activate them first and hope you confirm the crit.

The Ghost Strike property in MIC also allows you to sneak/crit undead. It's probably a bit cheaper than the Greater Truedeath Crystal (10K on top of a +3 weapon), but still at least a +3 investment (+1 enhancement, +1 for Ghost Touch, and +1 for Ghost Strike).

The best weapon to crit both undead and constructs... +3 weapon with Ghost touch, Ghost Strike (+5 total), and a Greater Demolition Crystal. So... about 56,300 GP

[Nifft]

Alright guys, all great advice, thank you.

Let's change gears for a second. One of my favorite builds for 5e was a Two-Weapon fighting Champion Fighter, would there be a way I could recreate something like that? I was reading Dual-Wielding Kukris would make for a good Crit build but is there any special way I need to build that kind of character? Like Finesse over Strength or would the be a class better fitting that fighting?

5e Fighter is a very different class from 3.x Fighter.

A significant driver behind the existence of 5e was the imbalance between Fighters and spellcasters in 3.x

3.x Fighter is pretty awful, and 5e Fighter exists as a reaction against this fact.

[Darrin]

Let's change gears for a second. One of my favorite builds for 5e was a Two-Weapon fighting Champion Fighter, would there be a way I could recreate something like that? I was reading Dual-Wielding Kukris would make for a good Crit build but is there any special way I need to build that kind of character? Like Finesse over Strength or would the be a class better fitting that fighting?

This would be... difficult. In 5E, your bonus damage defaults to either your Str bonus or Dex bonus without too much fuss. In 3E, it's more difficult to get your Dex bonus on damage. The easiest way is with Shadow Blade, but you have to use a Shadow Hand weapon and be in a Shadow Hand stance. Dipping Swordsage is easy enough, although you can also take Martial Study/Martial Stance on a Warblade chassis if you prefer.

However, as far as Crit-Fishing builds go... there are a couple key questions you'll want to nail down first: does the DM allow Aptitude weapons (Tome of Battle p. 148) to work with either the Lightning Mace feat (Complete Warrior) and/or the Shadow Blade feat (allowing non-Shadow-Hand weapons)?

[Jcp1195]

Alright guys changing directions one more time, I spoke with my group and we’ve pretty much settled on me being a Two-Handed Great Weapon user that is going to class into Weapon Master. What kind of feats should I be looking at? I know weapon Master is pretty versatile but am I going to want to look into Intimidation feats, solely damage feats?

[daremetoidareyo]

Intimidation on a fighter takes 1 skill point per level, the never outnumbered skill trick (2 more skill points) from complete scoundrel and if you can square it, the imperious command feat from drow of the underdark. Imperious command requires 15 charisma though.

Google fear stacking in 3.5 because that is helpful for intimidation. I think that there's a sidebar in races of Destiny about keying intimidation off of strength, but I believe the context was about being a half orc barbarian.

[Endril]

You were talking about using dungeon crusher, and finding a way to be large. If you're going to do that, I'd heavily recommend taking knockback out of Races of Stone. If you're not dead set on being human, you can also do it with Goliath, which would also allow you to be large if you take just 1 level in barbarian and take mountain rage (also in RoS).

End result? Every time you hit someone (and your reach is 10 feet, or 20 feet with a spiked chain), you bull rush them (and you'll almost always succeed with improved bull rush and large size), and if you knock them into a wall, they take another 8d6 + str mod x 3.

The large (or goliath) fighter idea also works well with a trip artist. Having improved trip with a spiked chain that reaches out 20 feet does very bad things for the bad guys, and makes it difficult for them to hurt your teammates.

[Endril]

Also, dex based fighters aren't terrible if you have the right books. Take shadow blade out of tome of battle so you add dex to both attack and damage. Also a 3 level dip in swashbuckler so you're adding int. Dervish is usually a good prestige class for that type of character.

[Darrin]

Alright guys changing directions one more time, I spoke with my group and we’ve pretty much settled on me being a Two-Handed Great Weapon user that is going to class into Weapon Master. What kind of feats should I be looking at? I know weapon Master is pretty versatile but am I going to want to look into Intimidation feats, solely damage feats?

What Weapon Master are you referring to? The 3.0 version in Sword & Fist? If so, then that version was "officially" updated in 3.5... actually several times, sorta. The 3.5 version is supposed to be "Exotic Weapon Master" in Complete Warrior. However, there's no particular resemblance between the two PrCs, so it sounds more like an afterthought than an actual update.

Then there's the Weapon Master printed in Oriental Adventures, which is nearly identical to the 3.0 version. Technically, Oriental Adventures was updated to 3.5 in Dragon Magazine #318, although the full details of the update were never publicly released on WotC's website. Since Dragon #318 was published after Complete Warrior, technically this version supersedes Exotic Weapon Master, or does so at least for the purposes of campaigns based in Rokugan.

There's also a 3.5 version of the Psychic Weapon Master (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) that is very similar to the Sword & Fist version outside of the psionic stuff.

Feat-wise, Weapon Master locks up most of your early feats with really crappy feat taxes, but you should eventually have room for the basic two-handed ubercharger stuff: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush (IBR), Shock Trooper, Leap Attack. It might be pretty late in the build, though.

Race: Human.
1) Barbarian 1. Feat: Combat Expertise. Human: Expeditious Dodge. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce.
2) Barbarian 2. Bonus: Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
3) Fighter 1. Bonus: Mobility.
4) Fighter 2. Feat: Spring Attack. Bonus: Whirlwind Attack.
5) Fighter 3.
6) Fighter 4. Feat: Combat Reflexes. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
7) Weapon Master 1.
8) Weapon Master 2.
9) Weapon Master 3. Feat: Power Attack.
10) Weapon Master 4.
11) Weapon Master 5.
12) Weapon Master 6. Feat: Improved Critical.
13) Weapon Master 7.
14) Weapon Master 8.
15) Weapon Master 9. Feat: Improved Bull Rush.
16) Weapon Master 10.
17) Fighter 5.
18) Fighter 6. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
19) Fighter 7.
20) Fighter 8. Bonus: Weapon Specialization.

[Fizban]

Funny how that Psychic Weapon Master is basically an Exotic Weapon Master, with the Kensai's bonded weapon, and half manifesting, and full BAB- so better in every possible way than either of the original PrCs.