What to choose? Class/Race

[Lucky Star]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for reading me and sorry if some of the stuff I am going to writte are confusing, I write from a Non-English country and maybe my level in the language is not the best yet. I am going to play a D&D Campaing with some friends, we are still deciding the classes and the razes for the characters and I need a little help with that. I have played only a couple of short D&D (A Bard and a cleric, both games stopped when the characters got to level 7 starting from level 1) before this one so I am still think of myself as a noob in all of this.

For now our party have this;

Total of 6 players:
- Aasimar Cleric
- Human Alquemist
- Giant Tank (He havent decided the class and raze yet, but he want to be a tank character)
- Elf Druid

I am a little confuse about what to choose to try to be good to the party, as you saw I am more of a caster/backline type of player so the melee characters like warriors are not the thing that calls me the most, but I want to choose something that can be usefull and dont feel like we lack something. Apart from the Giant Tank guy, we are still 2 people who need to choose class and raze, and we both dont really care that much about what to pick, and we just want to help to create a balance party.

so... Any recomendation please?

Thank you so much.

[Zaq]

What do you want to do? Simply being a caster or someone in the back is still very broad. Can you be any more specific about what appeals to you right now?

Also, you mentioned an Alchemist. Is this Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, or a mix of both?

[Lucky Star]

What do you want to do? Simply being a caster or someone in the back is still very broad. Can you be any more specific about what appeals to you right now?

Also, you mentioned an Alchemist. Is this Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, or a mix of both?

I dont know much about the Alchemist. In theory this is a D&D 3.5 but one of the players said that he wanted to play Alchemist. For what I know the DM have been doing some reseach and have find a 3.5 page about the Alchemist on D&D and another from the 5.0. He is still thinking what to do, if take the one he found online of the 3.5 or adapt the one of the 5.0.

About me. I want to try different classes so thats why I dont really care exactly what to be, the only things that really are not my thing right now are warriors and paladins. Other than those two I am pretty open for anything.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You've already done a Bard and a Cleric, so i'd suggest going for a Wizard or Sorcerer next.
A Psion could be good too if those are allowed in your campaign. Psions still play basically like casters, but they still have a very unique feel to them. I'd recommend giving it a try.
If your party needs a rogue-type a Unseen Seer is fun too (and plain rogues are boring).

I'm generally the same way in that i don't like to play melee, but if you want to dip your foot into it without giving up on being a caster try a gish (melee wizard). I enjoy them at least.
A Swiftblade or Jade Phoenix Mage are great for that. Or a Psychic Warrior.

[Nifft]

I dont know much about the Alchemist. In theory this is a D&D 3.5 but one of the players said that he wanted to play Alchemist. For what I know the DM have been doing some reseach and have find a 3.5 page about the Alchemist on D&D and another from the 5.0. He is still thinking what to do, if take the one he found online of the 3.5 or adapt the one of the 5.0.

About me. I want to try different classes so thats why I dont really care exactly what to be, the only things that really are not my thing right now are warriors and paladins. Other than those two I am pretty open for anything. Your party has a Cleric and a Druid already. You don't like Paladins or warrior-types.

Wizards are pretty great, and 3.5e is a great place to play a Wizard.

My suggestion: look at Treantmonk's GOD Wizard guide (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=394), which is a guide on being a support Wizard.

Support Wizard means your party wins, which means you win.

[Endril]

If the druid has a good companion and you have a good tank, sounds like playing another bard would be good. There's also the wizard, which others have mentioned.

Another thing worth thinking about is the group might be lacking in skills, and no one can find traps. There's rogue, or have you checked out factotum from the dungeonscape book? One of my favorite characters to play is a factotum 3 / bard x. He has bardic knack and jack of all trades, so he can attempt any skill check, and he gets great bonuses from his factotum levels.

For race, I'd consider gray elf for the dex/int increase, or human since they have just as many skills and an extra feat without losing con.

[Gingaroth]

Your party has healing and tanking covered, but is missing an arcane spellcaster and a trapfinder/skillmonkey.

The most obvious choices for you two are a wizard or sorcerer, and a rogue.

General Wizards, specialist wizards and Sorcerers are all good choices for the party. Sorcerer is slightly easier to play if you're still new to the game; you need to memorize fewer spells and you can choose which one you'll use at the last moment. Wizards get higher spells a little sooner.

I do not share the opinion that standard rogues are boring, but if you and the other player do, take a look at the Ninja (Complete Adventurer), the Scout (Complete Adventurer), the Savant (Dragon Compendium), the Beguiler (PHB II), the Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) or the already mentioned Factotum. They all have trapfinding and high skillpoints too, and maybe you'll like one of those better. Or find a rogue-based prestige class you like and start working towards it.

If no-one in your group wants to play a rogue-like character, you can partly compensate by having your caster take up some spells like 'Knock', 'Invisibility' and 'Detect hidden doors'.

As for races, what sources are you allowed to use, and what setting are you playing in?

As long as you stick to standard options (like from the PHB), the races of your characters are not all too important for the balance of the group. Just avoid anything that gives you penalties on the most important stats of your class. Humans are a fine choice in any case.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sorcerer is slightly easier to play if you're still new to the game; you need to memorize fewer spells and you can choose which one you'll use at the last moment.

I've found the opposite to be true. You have to pick your spells either way, but wizards not only learn more of them earlier, they're also not stuck with them for several levels if they pick something bad - they can just pick up a few scrolls and scribe them in their spellbook.

[Nifft]

Your party has healing and tanking covered, but is missing an arcane spellcaster and a trapfinder/skillmonkey.

The most obvious choices for you two are a wizard or sorcerer, and a rogue. ... or combine those roles with the PHB2 Beguiler, which is pretty forgiving for new players.


I've found the opposite to be true. You have to pick your spells either way, but wizards not only learn more of them earlier, they're also not stuck with them for several levels if they pick something bad - they can just pick up a few scrolls and scribe them in their spellbook. Yeah, this is also my experience.

Sorcerer is an advanced class because correcting mistakes you make at level-up is very, very difficult.

Wizards can experiment with different spells and adapt the next day. Sorcerers need to know far in advance how well their spells will work, and can't make changes if their guesses were wrong.

[noob]

You can also try artificer: you only need to stack cost modifiers and then either go all "I have infusions therefore I won" or start churning out items for making your allies awesome without making them feel overshadowed.

[Cosi]

It looks like your party has a number of (potential) frontliners. The Cleric, the Druid, the Tank, and the Druid's animal companion are all able to dish out melee damage with some effectiveness. As I understand it, the Alchemist can also be build that way, though that's less likely. Some kind of buff-focused caster (i.e. Wizard/War Weaver, with Incantatrix at higher levels of optimization) could be very effective in a supporting/backline role, particularly if other characters also build melee combatants.

Beguiler is definitely a good choice if you want to cover both caster and Rogue niches, though it's quite possible one of the undecideds ends up in the Rogue niche.

[noob]

Aftificer can do the rogue role with a dip into rogue and then abuse of infusions to get + a whole lot to their roguish skills.(like +40 if they abuse those a bit and way more if they abuse more)
However the question is why would you die killed by traps when you can send summons to do that?

[Cosi]

Aftificer can do the rogue role with a dip into rogue and then abuse of infusions to get + a whole lot to their roguish skills.(like +40 if they abuse those a bit and way more if they abuse more)

I generally dislike Artificers because they're bad at low levels, highly complex for relatively little benefit, and have difficulty hitting "useful" without hitting "broken".


However the question is why would you die killed by traps when you can send summons to do that?

The reason to use skills over spells is that spells slots are limited while skill checks aren't. If you're using Trapfinding you can check for traps anywhere you think they might be. Relying on summons forces you to be more conservative.

[daremetoidareyo]

Be a jester (found in dragon compendium). Get a long spear and the hold the line feat and pike hedge feat. Ask the DM if you can use feats associated with bardic music on your jester abilities. Requiem or melodic casting are the basic feats that you're interested in. Make the enemies charge at you through your allie's wall of swords and then hit them with double damage as an attack of Opportunity and triple damage with your readied action. Jester 4, fighter 2 will serve you well.

The dragonsong feat will help with your taunts. Spear of doom will give you a +4 to hit them.

[noob]

The reason to use skills over spells is that spells slots are limited while skill checks aren't. If you're using Trapfinding you can check for traps anywhere you think they might be. Relying on summons forces you to be more conservative.
There is ways to have at will summons such as a reserve feat if you are a caster or using magic items that summons so many stuff it could be at will(such as that thing where you put some water and it makes a water elemental or all those shenanigans with shurikens) if you are an artificer.
Or you can make undead and then have like four times your level in undead house-cats to send on traps or twice your level in humanoid undead(more if you have a caster class made for undead control).
For traps specific against living then there is other tricks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Aftificer can do the rogue role with a dip into rogue and then abuse of infusions to get + a whole lot to their roguish skills.(like +40 if they abuse those a bit and way more if they abuse more)
However the question is why would you die killed by traps when you can send summons to do that?

Why would you dip rogue? Artificers get a 3/4 version of trapfinding. Seems like you're just burning a CL for a few extra skill points and a d6 of sneak attack.

I'll echo the advice to go beguiler for a newb skillfull/ caster blend. It's rock-solid and really simple to play.

[noob]

Why would you dip rogue? Artificers get a 3/4 version of trapfinding. Seems like you're just burning a CL for a few extra skill points and a d6 of sneak attack.

I'll echo the advice to go beguiler for a newb skillfull/ caster blend. It's rock-solid and really simple to play.

did not knew that artificers had some variant of trapfinding.
It is true that beguiler is rather simple to play and if you find the spell you want that a beguiler can not cast you can get a runestaff or a domain staff with it.
Or if your gm is a text trump table kind of gm you can take levels in rainbow war-snake if you think the campaign will last up to level 16(very unlikely).

[Nifft]

Why would you dip rogue? Artificers get a 3/4 version of trapfinding.

What's the missing 1/4 that Artificers don't get?

[Asmotherion]

If in doupt, just play a Wizard of a Randomly Decided Race.

Worse case scenario, you can Transmute yourself into something you like, eventually even permanently. :P

And, power-wise, (or, being useful to your group-wise) you can never go wrong with Wizard.

[Cosi]

There is ways to have at will summons such as a reserve feat if you are a caster or using magic items that summons so many stuff it could be at will(such as that thing where you put some water and it makes a water elemental or all those shenanigans with shurikens) if you are an artificer.
Or you can make undead and then have like four times your level in undead house-cats to send on traps or twice your level in humanoid undead(more if you have a caster class made for undead control).
For traps specific against living then there is other tricks.

Sure, there are things you can do. The Beguiler can do some stuff too (e.g. charmed or dominated minions, or just grab spells that do what you want). But all of those things are more investment than a skill check. You could spend a feat on Summon Elemental and hold up a 4th level slot all day to get an elemental that can trigger traps for you. You could also spend that feat on something more powerful (like Persistent Spell or Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit) or Arcane Disciple) and rely on Trapfinding instead. The point is that it's a tradeoff, and "lower power, lower cost" is a reasonable place to be.


I'll echo the advice to go beguiler for a newb skillfull/ caster blend. It's rock-solid and really simple to play.

There was also a recent discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565873-How-would-you-build-your-beguiler-and-why) about Beguilers you may find helpful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What's the missing 1/4 that Artificers don't get?

I misremembered disabling non-magical traps at dc 20+ as being part of trapfinding. It's the whole feature by a different name.

I gotta play more skill-monkeys.

[Nifft]

I misremembered disabling non-magical traps at dc 20+ as being part of trapfinding. It's the whole feature by a different name.

I gotta play more skill-monkeys.

Okay cool. It looked identical to me, glad I'm not missing anything.

So yeah -- Artificer is a great trap-monkey who can do a lot more than just traps.

[bean illus]

For now our party have this;

Total of 6 players:
- Aasimar Cleric
- Human Alquemist
- Giant Tank (He havent decided the class and raze yet, but he want to be a tank character)
- Elf Druid

I'll add a vote for beguiler.

You have 3 frontliners (4 with animal companion), and 2 divine casters. You don't have a skill monkey or an arcane caster.

A beguiler does most of both. You would want max Int, because enchantment and illusion are both save heavy schools. In fact, nearly every beguiler spell has a will save.

Take Spell Focus (Illusion). In a 7 level game it will be used in almost every encounter. Start as Grey Elf and get a 20 Int. Your DC will be 17 at 1st level.

Beguiler also has one of the best skill access in the game. 6 per level and 5 bonus will net you 44 at 1st level. You'll be Spotting, Searching, Listening and Concentrating with the best of 'em.

Enchantment, illusion, and skills are all roleplay heavy. You will ALWAYS be doing something, RARELY in the front line, and the interpretive aspect is huge. You will be a 5th wheel and a game changer both at the same time.

And it's EASY to play.

[OgresAreCute]

About the Artificer's trapfinding, I believe they can also cannibalize magical traps to add to their craft reserve once they get the appropriate item creation feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

About the Artificer's trapfinding, I believe they can also cannibalize magical traps to add to their craft reserve once they get the appropriate item creation feat.

They actually get the appropriate feat (wondrous item) before they get the ability to cannibalize items in the first place. Good catch though.