Need some advice on taking on a gnoll warband... at 3rd level

[Greywander]

My sister and I are in a game together, and since it's just the two of us we're co-DMing so that we can also both play. I've let her take the lead DMing for our next arc, and I think she might be trying to get us killed. :smalltongue:

She's done a great job playing up the mystery of the situation. First it was a wrecked caravan, lots of blood but gold left behind. A severed arm was found at the scene. Several tracks were found around the caravan, including deer tracks, and one set of human-like tracks leading away. We followed the human tracks to a farmstead, where they abruptly ended with more blood and a broken gate. We found his head on the roof (more specifically, it rolled off and fell on top of me while we were debating opening the door to check inside). After checking the inside of the farmstead and finding nothing (it was even locked still), we buried the body parts, burned a mark in the door to warn others, and moved on.

Next we came to a small village: five or six houses, a general store, and a doctor's office (I'm not going to comment on my sister's village design). Wrecked. Lots of blood, but no loot taken. A finger nail stuck in a table. All that was left of the doctor was his foot stuck in a boot. Something chewed through the flimsy wooden fence surrounding the town, and more tracks were seen at the edge of town: deer and hyena. As soon as my sister said, "hyena tracks," I instantly thought of gnolls, but my best theories at the point were ghouls or a renegade, cannibal druid. I also considered the possibility of a deer-riding monster race that used hyenas like hunting dogs. We found a survivor locked in a basement in the doctor's office, an eight-year old-ish girl with no tongue. I tried to have her draw a picture of the attackers, and asked her several question with mixed success. Then I conjured a Minor Illusion of a gnoll, and she confirmed they were the attackers.

Out of character, my sister has confirmed that this was the work of an entire gnoll warband. She said there won't be a flind, for what that's worth. She indicated that the caravan was destroyed by something else related to the gnolls, and after reading up a bit in Volo's I'm thinking it was a leucrotta (deer tracks). We're only 3rd level, so I think we're boned (skelepuns) if we try take them on. We're also not sure if we should send the kid back to town (and lose out on manpower as well as risking them getting ambushed), or keep her with us as we run headlong into danger. That said, we do have a couple tricks up our sleeve.

First, we have a couple NPCs with us: a dwarf bard and a human wizard. We can leverage their (nebulously defined) abilities, use them as extra manpower, or send them back to town with the girl. That last one might be the optimal choice because...

My sister and I are undead. This has its pros and its cons, but it gives us some advantages to leverage. We're immune to exhaustion, so we can fight all day and all night without worrying about sleep (still need to rest to refresh class features, though). We're also really hard to kill: as undead we automatically stabilize at 0 HP except under special circumstances. One of the ways we can be permanently killed is with acid damage, and the gnolls are likely to eat us if they knock us out (will gnolls eat skeletons?), so that might not actually be too helpful. As a skeleton, I'll be resistant to piercing attacks from bows and the like, but if they pull out bludgeoning weapons they'll be using what's left of me as a xylophone. I also have a paralyzing touch I can use, basically the same ability that a lich has but without the cold damage (it will gain cold damage as I level up, like a cantrip).

My sister and I are also gestalt characters. My build is Illusionist wizard 3 / rogue 1 / Knowledge cleric 1 / Great Old One warlock 1 (I was going for a scholar type character), her build is Glamour bard 3 / Shadow sorcerer 1 / Celestial warlock 2 (fun fact, Celestial warlock feature is one of the few things that can heal undead). I'm not sure what skills would be relevant, but I do get +6 to Stealth rolls.

Another advantage is that I'm testing out some wild magic homebrew, which gives me infinite spell casting, but spells can fail to cast as well as triggering wild magic surges. When we came to the village, I put Mage Armor on the three of us not wearing armor, and it must have taken me seven or eight casts, the last of which triggered a minor wild magic surge. Fortunately, I rolled well and ended up with some temp HP from the surge, but most results range from "temporary inconvenience" to "roll a new character". I won't go into how it works here, but the anecdote mentioned here should give you an idea of what it's capable of. I can increase my chances of successfully casting a spell, but this also increases the risk of a wild magic surge, especially the more dangerous ones. And while I won't need to rest to restore spell slots, many effects from a minor wild magic surge last until I finish a short and/or long rest. I do also have my pact magic slot, if I need it.

So, with infinite but risky spellcasting, here's the spells I have to work with:
Cantrips: Create Bonfire, Minor Illusion, Ray of Frost, Shape Water, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Guidance, Mending, Thaumaturgy
1st Level: Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, Silent Image, Sleep, Armor of Agathys, Hex
2nd Level: Invisibility, Misty Step
+ any two 1st level cleric spells. I only get a +1 to spell attack and save DC from Wisdom, though, whereas both INT and CHA are 18. I currently have Bless and Shield of Faith prepared.

I also have access to Subtle Spell metamagic via a homebrew feat. It also runs off of wild magic, so I can use it as much as I want, it just makes it harder to cast my spells.

My sister isn't using wild magic (I actually wanted to see how it compared side-by-side with normal spellcasting), but here are the spells she has to contribute:
Cantrips: Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Control Flame, Shape Water, Mold Earth, Chill Touch, Sacred Flame, Light, Eldritch Blast, Gust
1st Level: Absorb Elements, Dissonant Whispers, Magic Missile, Faerie Fire, Earth Tremor, Protection from Good and Evil, Cure Wounds*, Guiding Bolt, Expeditious Retreat
2nd Level: Invisibility, Suggestion
*Cure Wounds doesn't affect undead

My sister does have Agonizing and Repelling Blast. Since we're only 3rd level, though, she only shoots one beam.

Equipment-wise, we're pretty sparse. We've been using variant encumbrance and haven't gotten a lot of gold yet. I've got a few daggers and a shield, but haven't been able to afford good armor even though I can use medium armor. I also have ink, parchment, empty flasks, a few sacks, and a hammer and pitons. My sister has a dagger and staff, a shovel, crowbar, some torches, and a disguise kit.

Do we have any hope of taking on a gnoll warband, or should we head back to town to call it in (possibly letting the gnolls escape)? In character, we don't know that it's a whole warband yet, but I may scout ahead, using my undead endurance to push forward all night until I catch up with the gnolls. Is there a way to draw them out so we can deal with them a few at a time? We have a lot of illusion magic at our disposal. I'm also loathe to have wasted time and money without actually completing the quest we originally set out to do (recover an artifact from some ruins).

[Unoriginal]

You're playing an OP gestalt character with an OP race and and "infinite magic". Honestly I wouldn't know what you're capable of.

I'm also confused why the gnolls didn't loot the town for all its worth. They don't just want food, you know?


Anyway. Here's the advice I would give to any standard adventuring group in this situation: identify the menace properly, go to the closest civilized area, raise the alarm, and try to get the army to deal with that horde of gnolls.

That being said, it depends the size of the warband. If it's under 50, you and the NPCs might succeed. But no chance if it's above 100 unless you have some kind of large-scale trap around like breaking a dam and flooding them.

[CTurbo]

For what it's worth, my 3rd level Tempest Cleric killed like 14 out of 20 something Gnolls at once with a single maxed Shatter lol

[Whyrocknodie]

Keep the NPCs with you, once you locate the gnolls make sure the warband sees them and make them all run in different directions. The warband will have to break off some members to pursue the bait, and you can pick which group to attack once they've moved apart - may only thin out their numbers a little and not necessarily for all that long but it's a small help.

When fighting the gnolls, try and kill their leaders and demand the remainder of the pack capitulate to your clearly superior power. If they waver, promise them looting opportunities far superior to the paltry raids so far - if successful, you will have a useful pack of gnolls at your heel when you reach the next village and can burn it to the ground easily, filling your bags with the choice plunder as you see fit!

If you can't bear the thought of them surviving, still use the same tactics but then concentrate on turning members of the pack against each other - say something like 'only the strongest deserve the greatest rewards' and encourage them to cull the weak. After a few bouts of infighting, resume the general battle and pick off the wounded.

Should they flee in terror at some point, do not be troubled - they're the living, they will get tired. There is no escape, there is only delaying the inevitable.

[Unoriginal]

When fighting the gnolls, try and kill their leaders and demand the remainder of the pack capitulate to your clearly superior power.

They're gnolls, not orcs.

[Greywander]

You're playing an OP gestalt character with an OP race and and "infinite magic". Honestly I wouldn't know what you're capable of.
This is a harsh assessment of what I wrote. Gestalting is an acceptable way to round out a small party, and does nothing to assist with the action economy. We're testing out some homebrew to see how balanced it is and really just to have fun. As for "infinite magic", it's based on the dangerous and unforgiving system from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The system where you can attempt to cast a spell and get dragged down to hell by a demon. I wasn't kidding when I said some of the effects of a wild magic surge were "roll a new character".

It's possibly to cast cautiously to avoid wild magic surges, but your spells are much more likely to fail. Numerically, being as cautious as possible, I have a 42% chance (15 in 36, 8 or higher on a 2d6 roll) of successfully casting a 1st level spell and a 17% chance (1 in 6, 10 or higher) of casting a 2nd level spell, with a 1 in 6 chance (rolling doubles) of a wild magic surge, which will be a minor surge 5 out of 6 times, and a major surge that unlucky 6th time (snake eyes). If I'm really unlucky with my rolls, I could trigger a catastrophic wild magic surge, which has a pretty good chance of ending my adventuring career. Part of this playtest is figuring out how the risk versus reward carries out in practice, not just on paper.


I'm also confused why the gnolls didn't loot the town for all its worth. They don't just want food, you know?

A gnoll feels a constant, gnawing demand for blood and destruction that abates only when it kills and eats intelligent creatures. Other prey might provide sustenance, but it does nothing to quell Yeenoghu's hunger.

The gnolls leave the town's gold and gems and other durable goods battered and gnawed, but still intact, though they invariably ruin delicate or flammable objects in their fits of destruction.
[...]
Gnolls regard objects of "treasure" only in terms of their ability to cause harm or preserve a gnoll's life. Everything else is fit only for destruction.
Actually, they do just want food. That is literally their purpose in existing: to eat and satiate the unending hunger of Yeenoghu.


Anyway. Here's the advice I would give to any standard adventuring group in this situation: identify the menace properly, go to the closest civilized area, raise the alarm, and try to get the army to deal with that horde of gnolls.

That being said, it depends the size of the warband. If it's under 50, you and the NPCs might succeed. But no chance if it's above 100 unless you have some kind of large-scale trap around like breaking a dam and flooding them.
The first bit sounds like what I was already considering. I'm hoping we can somehow pull this off. I'm not optimistic about taking on even 20 gnolls; the action economy is not kind to small parties, gestalt or no. Good tips on using the environment to wipe them out, though. With the four elemental cantrips (Control Flames, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Gust), we might be able to arrange for some "natural" disasters to hit them. With enough time, we could probably Mold Earth a sinkhole under their camp, for example, depending on the dirt-to-rock ratio.


For what it's worth, my 3rd level Tempest Cleric killed like 14 out of 20 something Gnolls at once with a single maxed Shatter lol
We're short on AoE, unfortunately (my sister's Earth Tremor is all we've got), but we might be able to catch more than one using a trap.


Keep the NPCs with you, once you locate the gnolls make sure the warband sees them and make them all run in different directions. The warband will have to break off some members to pursue the bait, and you can pick which group to attack once they've moved apart - may only thin out their numbers a little and not necessarily for all that long but it's a small help.
This is actually a really good idea, as gnolls never leave survivors and will specifically hunt down anyone fleeing so they don't raise the alarm. They're not stupid, and they know it's bad when the cavalry gets called in.

This could also go very poorly if the entire warband or at least a large enough portion of it pursues. We may be undead, but we're not evil, so while I'm not above using live (or unlive) bait, I'd rather get the bait back in one piece. Maybe we can use a combination of Silent Image and Minor Illusion to achieve more or less the same result without actually putting anyone in danger (relatively speaking).


Should they flee in terror at some point, do not be troubled - they're the living, they will get tired. There is no escape, there is only delaying the inevitable.
True, although they could flee in multiple directions. All it takes is one gnoll to rebuild the warband, so it's better for the long term safety of the region to make sure they're all wiped out.

[Unoriginal]

This is a harsh assessment of what I wrote. Gestalting is an acceptable way to round out a small party, and does nothing to assist with the action economy. We're testing out some homebrew to see how balanced it is and really just to have fun. As for "infinite magic", it's based on the dangerous and unforgiving system from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The system where you can attempt to cast a spell and get dragged down to hell by a demon. I wasn't kidding when I said some of the effects of a wild magic surge were "roll a new character".

It may be harsh, but you have to admit you would blow any non-gestalt, PHB-race PC out of the water.





Actually, they do just want food. That is literally their purpose in existing: to eat and satiate the unending hunger of Yeenoghu.

They want the food, and they don't care about treasures, but they *will* plunder the town for anything they think can be an useful weapon, armor or tool, as mentioned in the Volo's. And as the part you quoted indicates, they'd also burn the buildings if they can.





True, although they could flee in multiple directions. All it takes is one gnoll to rebuild the warband, so it's better for the long term safety of the region to make sure they're all wiped out.

You're only level 3, assuring the long term safety of the region is not really up your alley.

Killing most of them and making them have to wait before they can attack more is already a major setback for the gnolls, especially if you warn the nearby settlements afterward.


Something your group could try would be to prepare an area between two hills or near a montain's flank, and put cut trees, rocks and other debris in a way you can trigger a landlide, and then trick the gnolls into approaching.

That or tricking them into going into a forest or plain and surrounding them with flames.

[SirGraystone]

First thing to do is scouting, you need to know how many gnolls in that warband, and where they are, if they are all together, if you can attack them in small group,...

[JackPhoenix]

Recon is essential. Know the enemy.
Hit and run. Don't get bogged in battle against the whole warband. You can have speed, you can have stealth, you have range with your spells. Use it.
Use the terrain to your advantage. If you can setup an ambush where the gnolls can't get at you easily, like shooting from elevated position they can't get to without climbing, or when they are slowed down by difficult terrain, or when they are forced to group up in a small area, or someplace when they can come only one at a time, you'll vastly improve the chances for the previous.
Set up traps, if you can. Mold Earth, Shape Water and Create Bonfire are useful for that. Pits (perhaps with ice spikes or fire inside), rockslides, anything. You can also use Mold Earth to funnel them where you want to.
You don't need to rest, they do. And I assume you can see in darkness. Hit them under the cover of the night, kill the sentries, vanish only to return again later. You're skeleton, they propably won't be able to track you by scent (not that either gnolls or hyenas are especially good at that). Exhaustion penalties hurt.

Embrace combat-as-war mindset.

[Citan]

It may be harsh, but you have to admit you would blow any non-gestalt, PHB-race PC out of the water.

What? Seriously no, how could you even believe that?
The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself.
Yeah, between a "twin lvl 3" means more HP, more features etc.

But it's still a level 3 character overall.
A Variant Human Sharpshooter Rogue would mince him with stealth attacks.
A Tempest Cleric could instantly halve its HP with a maxed Shatter.
A Sorcerer could Heigthen Blind/Hold him to instantly cripple him then bash him away.
A Barbarian would rush and straight kill him
Etc etc.

The only thing OP has for himself is luring enemy aside/away by feeding false information to strategize upon with illusions or obscuration. Which may work very well on a Barbarian or Fighter, much less on casters. On the opposite limit, Sleep could insta-win against a caster provided OP can act first and get in reach, but it would overall be useless against a Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter because they would have too much HP (unless lucky roll).

As OP said, between action economy and the fact that he put himself in*permanent* high risk just for the *theorical possibility* of infinite spellcasting, it's more on the "underpowered" side actually because of the great randomness of your own decisions.

[JackPhoenix]

What? Seriously no, how could you even believe that?
The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself.
Yeah, between a "twin lvl 3" means more HP, more features etc.

But it's still a level 3 character overall.
A Variant Human Sharpshooter Rogue would mince him with stealth attacks.
A Tempest Cleric could instantly halve its HP with a maxed Shatter.
A Sorcerer could Heigthen Blind/Hold him to instantly cripple him then bash him away.
A Barbarian would rush and straight kill him
Etc etc.

The only thing OP has for himself is luring enemy aside/away by feeding false information to strategize upon with illusions or obscuration. Which may work very well on a Barbarian or Fighter, much less on casters. On the opposite limit, Sleep could insta-win against a caster provided OP can act first and get in reach, but it would overall be useless against a Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter because they would have too much HP (unless lucky roll).

As OP said, between action economy and the fact that he put himself in*permanent* high risk just for the *theorical possibility* of infinite spellcasting, it's more on the "underpowered" side actually because of the great randomness of your own decisions.

And this is relevant how? D&D isn't built for PvP, and the OP's situation also isn't based on PvP. And unless you have access to OP's homebrew, "The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself. " is pure speculation on your part, because he certainly didn't post his wild magic table or any other rules for that thing here.

[Throne12]

If you dont have Access to Artillery (AoE spells). Then you need to set up a kill zone.

[ImproperJustice]

I haven’t read up on my Volo’s buuuuut:

How long can they go without eating before they start to turn on each other?

Could the answer be to delay them from their next meals?
Maybe you need to pull a Paul Revere and cut them off from their food supply, by warning and evacuating the nearest settlements?

Can you block roads and trails, or disrupt their camp to slow them down?

Can you get into their camp w/ disguise self and promote rumors that the leadership or a particular tribe has a secret stash of meat?

[Citan]

And this is relevant how? D&D isn't built for PvP, and the OP's situation also isn't based on PvP. And unless you have access to OP's homebrew, "The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself. " is pure speculation on your part, because he certainly didn't post his wild magic table or any other rules for that thing here.
You know, before you jump into a discussion, with an agressive tone in addition, it may be best to properly read the thread.

1) Post I reacted to: "you would blow any non-gestalt PC out of the water". Very possibly a misunderstanding on me, but this can perfectly be meant as "this PC is so overpowered that he would crush any normal in 1-to-1".
So let the actual author of the post say what he really thought, mmh?

2) Quotes from OP...
"Fortunately, I rolled well and ended up with some temp HP from the surge, but most results range from "temporary inconvenience" to "roll a new character"."
"As for "infinite magic", it's based on the dangerous and unforgiving system from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The system where you can attempt to cast a spell and get dragged down to hell by a demon. I wasn't kidding when I said some of the effects of a wild magic surge were "roll a new character".

It's possibly to cast cautiously to avoid wild magic surges, but your spells are much more likely to fail. Numerically, being as cautious as possible, I have a 42% chance (15 in 36, 8 or higher on a 2d6 roll) of successfully casting a 1st level spell and a 17% chance (1 in 6, 10 or higher) of casting a 2nd level spell, with a 1 in 6 chance (rolling doubles) of a wild magic surge, which will be a minor surge 5 out of 6 times, and a major surge that unlucky 6th time (snake eyes). If I'm really unlucky with my rolls, I could trigger a catastrophic wild magic surge, which has a pretty good chance of ending my adventuring career."

Meaning that any time he *tries* to cast a spell, *something bad* can happen without even having the spell actually take effect.
And apparently it also triggers on cantrips. And it has chance to trigger far more often than regular Wild Magic.
And OP's view on it is that the random table is much more "negative overall" than Wild Magic.

That is far, far worse imo than PHB's Wild Magic. Putting any PvP argument aside, I'd still take a regular (non-WM ^^) Sorcerer or Warlock of same level any day personally, at least you can cast spells without risking your life AND knowing you "just" need target to fail its save.

Oh and, if having the reflex of trusting OP's intelligence on such homebrew and self-criticize ability (instead of prejudging that OP is incapable of giving an accurate summary of his own work) is being in "pure speculation area", then I'm fine being "purely speculative" really. At least I'm being respectful.

So, next time, vent your anger somewhere else plz, or at least do it in a constructive way (like actually demonstrating how I missed or misunderstood something in OP's system for example).

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

"you would blow any non-gestalt PC out of the water" when talking about normal adventuring scenario (PC vs monsters) is most likely about the situation being talked about, not PvP, don't you think? Or do your "reflex of being respectful" doesn't apply when it's *you* who are reacting to someone, and you don't trust their intelligence enough to expect them to be able to stay on topic, or to have an idea how powerful the OP's homebrew could be? "What? Seriously no, how could you even believe that?" doesn't exactly sound respectful, does it?

You've missed that he didn't actually posted anything about the possible results ("most results range from "minor inconvenience" to "roll a new character"" may mean that 49% of time you'll get a buff, 50% of the time you may get "minor inconvenience" and you'll die 1% of time). There's no mention of the difference between "minor" or "major" surge, or what happens if he's not cautious. Hardly enough information to assume that "The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself. "

Also, I've also responded to OP's question first, unlike someone who "jumped into a discussion, with an aggressive tone in addition" to respond to Unoriginal's pretty reasonable concerns.

[Greywander]

It may be harsh, but you have to admit you would blow any non-gestalt, PHB-race PC out of the water.
Yes, this is the point. But against a party of four non-gestalt characters, we would probably be at a disadvantage. More accurately, against the challenges that a party of four would expect to face, we're going to have a hard time. We're still 3rd level characters, and we still only get one action, bonus action, and reaction per round. A failed save is also much more dangerous.


Something your group could try would be to prepare an area between two hills or near a montain's flank, and put cut trees, rocks and other debris in a way you can trigger a landlide, and then trick the gnolls into approaching.

That or tricking them into going into a forest or plain and surrounding them with flames.
If we catch up to them, I'll be sure to be on the lookout for any geography that we can weaponize, as I think this represents our best bet to take them out. I suspect my sister will have the gnolls move on before we catch up, though, and that we'll fight the leucrottas instead. In-character, though, I wouldn't want to let the gnolls escape, so I might try tracking them down anyway.


First thing to do is scouting, you need to know how many gnolls in that warband, and where they are, if they are all together, if you can attack them in small group,...

Recon is essential. Know the enemy.
[...]
Embrace combat-as-war mindset.
All good advice. This will definitely require some lateral thinking. As much fun as it is to play OP characters, it's often more rewarding to be outnumbered and outmatched, and still find a way to win.


I haven’t read up on my Volo’s buuuuut:

How long can they go without eating before they start to turn on each other?
Weeks, apparently. This is apparently how witherlings are created, if they have a spellcaster to reanimate the bones.


Could the answer be to delay them from their next meals?
Maybe you need to pull a Paul Revere and cut them off from their food supply, by warning and evacuating the nearest settlements?

Can you block roads and trails, or disrupt their camp to slow them down?
Maybe if we had more people or could travel faster. I'm not sure we can move fast enough to get ahead of them to warn people in time (at least, not with our weak, living NPC allies in tow). Disrupting their camp might slow them down, but I'm afraid they might just run away if they don't have a clear enemy to fight. They don't care about honor or glory, only about wracking up as big of a body count as they can, so they have no incentive to stand and fight when they could just run away and find something else to kill instead.


Can you get into their camp w/ disguise self and promote rumors that the leadership or a particular tribe has a secret stash of meat?
Doubtful, as has previously been mentioned, they're not orcs. Most social methods won't work gnolls, as they pretty much only care about killing, destroying, and eating. I think they'd be more interested in killing and eating something fresh than any secret stash of meat. Turning them against each other almost certainly won't work, as that's not how gnolls think. They seem to be a collective, almost like a hivemind, with no sense of individual honor or glory. By working together they can kill and eat more, so why would they ever turn against one another?


The only thing OP has for himself is luring enemy aside/away by feeding false information to strategize upon with illusions or obscuration. Which may work very well on a Barbarian or Fighter, much less on casters. On the opposite limit, Sleep could insta-win against a caster provided OP can act first and get in reach, but it would overall be useless against a Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter because they would have too much HP (unless lucky roll).
I think Sleep will be a no-go, as even the weakest gnolls have just a few too many HP. I could maybe drop one, which would still be helpful, but it would be a coin toss. I think I might be able to draw them out and even split them up by using illusions, but I'm not sure if I can split them up enough to break them into manageable chunks. I think it's going to take a combination of the various tactics that have been suggested. For example, creating the illusion of a human fleeing right over a pit trap, or the illusion of a campsite right were we can trigger a landslide. Lure them out of their camp, then set it on fire.


Meaning that any time he *tries* to cast a spell, *something bad* can happen without even having the spell actually take effect.
And apparently it also triggers on cantrips. And it has chance to trigger far more often than regular Wild Magic.
And OP's view on it is that the random table is much more "negative overall" than Wild Magic.

That is far, far worse imo than PHB's Wild Magic. Putting any PvP argument aside, I'd still take a regular (non-WM ^^) Sorcerer or Warlock of same level any day personally, at least you can cast spells without risking your life AND knowing you "just" need target to fail its save.
I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of my wild magic system, but let me correct a few misconceptions:

Currently, I need to roll at least two dice to cast a spell of 1st level or higher. As I level up, I will eventually be able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells without the risk of a wild magic surge, albeit with a low chance of success (not combat viable, but useful out of combat). This is one of the things I want to check and see how it works out, and I'll adjust it if it feels too powerful.

I had considered requiring a spellcasting check for cantrips, but for now they are at-will. If I enhance them with metamagic, I would have roll, but I could do so without needing to risk a wild magic surge.

Wild magic surges trigger on doubles, triples, or quadruples, and rolling ones moves it up to the next category (i.e. snake eyes triggers a major surge instead of a minor). Right now I'm using d6s, so it's 1 in 6 if I roll two dice, but this will scale up to d12s at 17th level, which is still 1 in 12 when rolling two dice.

About 1/5 of each table are (arguably, in some cases) beneficial effects. Minor surges can restore some HP, major surges can permanently increase a random ability score, catastrophic surges can make the spell that triggered it at-will. The majority of effects, however, are harmful. Minor surges are generally zany, like all your fingers turn into thumbs, or you are suddenly naked (it's a d100 table ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ), but the most common result (15%) is to increase the DC to cast any spell by 1 (stacking) until you finish a long rest. Major surges are more like what's in the PHB (harsher in some cases), including things like casting fireball on yourself, but can also take an effect from the minor surge table and make it permanent, permanently increase the DC to cast spells by 1, or permanently decrease your ability scores. The catastrophic surge table is about half "save or die", and even on a save you still suffer (example: pass = can't cast spells until you finish a long rest, fail = never use magic again). One effect straight up kills you, dragging your soul down to the lower planes by an archfiend, if you get that particular result 6 times, no save, no way to stop it except not rolling that result.

It's definitely meant to be a trade off. I like not having to track spell slots or worry if I'll have enough slots for later. The wackier effects of minor wild magic surges make things interesting without being too dangerous, while the more dangerous major and catastrophic surges will give you pause before rolling more than two dice to cast a spell. It would probably fit best either with a silly campaign where death is cheap and random wacky effects are considered fun rather than inconvenient, or in a grimdark campaign where the wacky effects feel more like they're mocking you (and the social effects are played up), and you frequently have to make hard choices about how much you want to risk in order to cast a spell.

[Citan]

"you would blow any non-gestalt PC out of the water" when talking about normal adventuring scenario (PC vs monsters) is most likely about the situation being talked about, not PvP, don't you think? Or do your "reflex of being respectful" doesn't apply when it's *you* who are reacting to someone, and you don't trust their intelligence enough to expect them to be able to stay on topic, or to have an idea how powerful the OP's homebrew could be? "What? Seriously no, how could you even believe that?" doesn't exactly sound respectful, does it?

You've missed that he didn't actually posted anything about the possible results ("most results range from "minor inconvenience" to "roll a new character"" may mean that 49% of time you'll get a buff, 50% of the time you may get "minor inconvenience" and you'll die 1% of time). There's no mention of the difference between "minor" or "major" surge, or what happens if he's not cautious. Hardly enough information to assume that "The only thing OP has a great chance to blow here is himself. "

Also, I've also responded to OP's question first, unlike someone who "jumped into a discussion, with an aggressive tone in addition" to respond to Unoriginal's pretty reasonable concerns.
Lol.
I explained that my point still standed out strong, whether considering PC vs PC or PC vs monsters. I mean, people on this forum or otherwise regularly rant about Wild Magic's being "dangerous", as in, "too random and unpredictable for potential benefits to be worth the asserted risks".

And Greywander kindly detailed his system, which proves that my "pure speculation" was rather accurate, in spite of some misunderstanding, in that his system is much more dangerous for character, and overall much less efficient than a regular caster, at least at low levels (up until level 10 maybe?) because of roll chances.

So, please make a poll, asking who would rather take such a gestalt character compared to a regular one? I mean, if the gestalt would blow the regular out of the water, surely the answers should be positive up to somewhere around 80% ratio right?
I'll bet a beer it would be under 20%.

Also, I didn't say anything about OP's question simply because imo every useful suggestion had already been made. :)

Finally, if Unoriginal felt I came out too strong, let him tell me that directly and I'll be glad to apologize, he is a big boy. Again, you jumped to discredit directly, without even trying an argument, except by having a negative preconception on OP's work.
That's on you. Make what you want of it, I don't care. :)



Currently, I need to roll at least two dice to cast a spell of 1st level or higher. As I level up, I will eventually be able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells without the risk of a wild magic surge, albeit with a low chance of success (not combat viable, but useful out of combat). This is one of the things I want to check and see how it works out, and I'll adjust it if it feels too powerful.

I had considered requiring a spellcasting check for cantrips, but for now they are at-will. If I enhance them with metamagic, I would have roll, but I could do so without needing to risk a wild magic surge.

Wild magic surges trigger on doubles, triples, or quadruples, and rolling ones moves it up to the next category (i.e. snake eyes triggers a major surge instead of a minor). Right now I'm using d6s, so it's 1 in 6 if I roll two dice, but this will scale up to d12s at 17th level, which is still 1 in 12 when rolling two dice.

About 1/5 of each table are (arguably, in some cases) beneficial effects. Minor surges can restore some HP, major surges can permanently increase a random ability score, catastrophic surges can make the spell that triggered it at-will. The majority of effects, however, are harmful. Minor surges are generally zany, like all your fingers turn into thumbs, or you are suddenly naked (it's a d100 table ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ), but the most common result (15%) is to increase the DC to cast any spell by 1 (stacking) until you finish a long rest. Major surges are more like what's in the PHB (harsher in some cases), including things like casting fireball on yourself, but can also take an effect from the minor surge table and make it permanent, permanently increase the DC to cast spells by 1, or permanently decrease your ability scores. The catastrophic surge table is about half "save or die", and even on a save you still suffer (example: pass = can't cast spells until you finish a long rest, fail = never use magic again). One effect straight up kills you, dragging your soul down to the lower planes by an archfiend, if you get that particular result 6 times, no save, no way to stop it except not rolling that result.

It's definitely meant to be a trade off. I like not having to track spell slots or worry if I'll have enough slots for later. The wackier effects of minor wild magic surges make things interesting without being too dangerous, while the more dangerous major and catastrophic surges will give you pause before rolling more than two dice to cast a spell. It would probably fit best either with a silly campaign where death is cheap and random wacky effects are considered fun rather than inconvenient, or in a grimdark campaign where the wacky effects feel more like they're mocking you (and the social effects are played up), and you frequently have to make hard choices about how much you want to risk in order to cast a spell.
This system is interesting, seems to reward tenacity (managing to survive for a long time ^), with 1/12 being much more manageable a risk imo than 1/6.
Still one thing I don't understand, you seem to say you roll many dice at once, then after speak only about two d6 die that increase in size with level.
So where are the "triples" and "quadruples" come from? What did I miss? Do number of die depend on spell level?

[Greywander]

This system is interesting, seems to reward tenacity (managing to survive for a long time ^), with 1/12 being much more manageable a risk imo than 1/6.
Still one thing I don't understand, you seem to say you roll many dice at once, then after speak only about two d6 die that increase in size with level.
So where are the "triples" and "quadruples" come from? What did I miss? Do number of die depend on spell level?
You choose how many dice to roll, anywhere from one to four, which is how you decide how much to risk in order to cast that spell. Of course, when you're rolling d6s and the DC for a 1st level spell is 8, you'll need to roll at least two dice. Once you hit 5th level and your dice upgrade to d8s, you can roll one die with a 1 in 8 chance of casting the spell but no risk of a wild magic surge (again, if this proves too powerful, I'll either make two dice the minimum, or trigger a minor surge on a 1).

To put this into perspective at higher levels, I can cast 1st (DC 8) and 2nd (DC 10) level spells by rolling one d12, but 3rd (DC 14) and up require at least two dice. 9th level spells have a DC of 30, which is possible but unlikely with 3d12, and even with 4d12 is only about a 31% chance of success. I'm not sure how this will work out in practice, but it sounds right on paper, as I know some people will get twitchy if you say "infinite spellcasting" and "9th level spells" in the same sentence. The formula I'm currently using for the DC is 4 + 2*(spell point cost). This is why when, say, enhancing a cantrip with metamagic, it is treated as if it had a base DC of 4, and if I made cantrips require rolling, the DC would be 4.

The type of wild magic surge depends on whether you roll doubles (minor), triples (major), or quadruples (catastrophic), so your choice of how many dice you roll correlates reasonably well to not only the likelihood of a wild magic surge, but also to potential severity. Rolling four dice will of course trigger more minor surges than anything, but the risk of a catastrophic surge is much greater than rolling only three dice. Rolling two dice is extremely unlikely to trigger a catastrophic surge, and still unlikely to trigger a major surge. As I mentioned previously, rolling ones scales it up to the next level of severity, so triple ones would trigger a catastrophic surge. Each table also has a 5% chance to increase in severity (i.e. reroll on the next table up) as well as a 5% chance to decrease in severity. This makes it a bit tricky to calculate the exact probability in various situations, and I might eliminate some of these "extraneous" ways of triggering a more or less severe surge.

If you're interested in seeing the full document, here it is (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g9G0MwlSF3E6HFDJizb6lUH2gjC4PFSiV63dMjciMW4/edit#). Though I warn you, it's pretty messy and in desperate need of a rewrite. It still links to an outdated version of the undead race we're using (one of the catastrophic surge effects is literally "you are a lich now", I'll probably change it to "you are now undead" using the newer undead race (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dZ6pGa2HeeLY4sw48CVpxD7DeOXnr1UQZcf_AoBbTDY/edit#), also still a work in progress), and I was in the process of replacing the d20 Major Wild Magic Surge table with a d100 table. I'll probably replace the catastrophic surge table with a d100 table at some point as well.

ANYWAY

This thread is supposed to be about gnolls. A lot of suggestions have been made, I'm not sure there's much more planning that can be done until after our next session. I'll be sure to come back and let you know if we died horribly or were gloriously victorious.

[Mongrel]

Will a gnoll eat a skeleton?

Gnolls will eat pretty much anything. They'll crack open your skele-bones and suck out the marrow. Don't fall in combat lol.

As for your predicament, I don't know how savage the gnolls in this world are, but in a game I once played in we dealt with a similarly daunting amount of gnolls by bribing them with food. A bunch of peasants had to essentially pay a food tax forever, but that certainly beat being eaten by gnolls. Be warned though: if the gnolls in your setting are more demonic (see also: "evil for the sake of being evil") which is how they're sometimes run, this may not work.

[War_lord]

As for your predicament, I don't know how savage the gnolls in this world are, but in a game I once played in we dealt with a similarly daunting amount of gnolls by bribing them with food. A bunch of peasants had to essentially pay a food tax forever

Doesn't work on 5th edition Gnolls, they're manifestations of Yeenoghu's will.


Gnolls embody the dark urges of Yeenoghu, the demon lord of slaughter and senseless destruction. Although Yeenoghu has been defeated and cast back into the Abyss more than once, gnolls continue to pursue his horrid, apocalyptic vision of a world transformed into a barren, empty ruin, with only the decaying corpses of the last few surviving gnolls left to mark its passing.

As creatures that sprang up in the wake of a demon lord, gnolls are creatures of savage blood lust, incapable of understanding or acting on any other impulse. They are extensions of Yeenoghu’s will. They pause only to devour what they have killed, and to fashion crude Weapons and armor from their victims’ corpses.

A gnoll war band exemplifies Yeenoghu’s plans for the world. He wants to transform it into a vicious realm of endless fighting. When the last battle ends, Yeenoghu will enter the world, slay its last surviving Champion, and preside over a wasteland of rotting corpses. To Yeenoghu, pure destruction is beauty.

So killing you all horribly, eating your face, burning your houses and fashioning spears and armor from your bones is all inherent to their nature, they don't make deals. Which, incidentally, means that they don't have camps. The only way to stop a Gnoll Warband is to kill every last one of them.

[Mongrel]

Doesn't work on 5th edition Gnolls, they're manifestations of Yeenoghu's will.

...

So killing you all horribly, eating your face, burning your houses and fashioning spears and armor from your bones is all inherent to their nature, they don't make deals. Which, incidentally, means that they don't have camps. The only way to stop a Gnoll Warband is to kill every last one of them.

That's what it says in the book, yes (hence my caveat at the end of my post), but I've yet to play in a game where the DM perfectly adheres to every bit of lore in the Monster Manual. If this were a game set in a known setting, like the Forgotten Realms for instance, or at a sanctioned event, it'd be a safer bet that the monsters should behave as detailed in the rulebook. The OP's game appears to be played in a custom world (hence the skeleton PCs and gestalt characters), so really it falls to whether the DM likes the plan or not.

Tl;dr: fair point, but my advice still stands.

[Greywander]

That's what it says in the book, yes (hence my caveat at the end of my post), but I've yet to play in a game where the DM perfectly adheres to every bit of lore in the Monster Manual. If this were a game set in a known setting, like the Forgotten Realms for instance, or at a sanctioned event, it'd be a safer bet that the monsters should behave as detailed in the rulebook. The OP's game appears to be played in a custom world (hence the skeleton PCs and gestalt characters), so really it falls to whether the DM likes the plan or not.

Tl;dr: fair point, but my advice still stands.
You've got a point, but after reading up on gnolls and comparing it to what I've observed in-game, it seems my sister is playing them by the book. Still, she could surprise me.

I will say that this has given me new respect for gnolls as monsters. Before our last session, I didn't really think much of gnolls, I thought they were just a reskin of goblins or kobolds, another generic monster to throw at the PCs. Now, however, I have an appreciation for just how destructive they are, and feel compelled (even as a Lawful Neutral character) to hunt them down and end their menace to the region.

[Greywander]

UPDATE: I may have done goofed.

I left the rest of the party behind so the immortally challenged could rest. After about six hours of hiking through forest, I reached the ruins that was our original quest goal. There I found about 20 gnolls sleeping. Creeping around the ruins, I found a cultist saying his evening prayers over dinner. Apparently my sister wanted me to capture him so he could be "reformed". Instead, I stabbed him twice and threw him in the fire. He rolled poorly on his CON saves against my paralyzing touch.

This is where things started going downhill. From that point onward, I started rolling spotty Stealth rolls, despite having a +6. When I threw the cultist's body into the fire, it knocked over the brazier. Some of the hyenas woke up and began to investigate. I was able to sneak out, but heard some leucrottas giving voice impressions. I got to the treeline and climbed a tree, but apparently the leucrottas could track my scent. I managed a Subtle Prestidigitation to clean myself off and tried to Misty Step to a tree further away to throw them off. Misty Step was successful, but I can only speak in animal noises until I finish a long rest (thank you wild magic). At least I'm a GOO lock and have telepathy.

Unfortunately, I rolled poorly on my stealth check again, and the leucrotta spotted me. In an increasingly desperate attempt to get away, I cast Invisibility and ended up triggering my first major wild magic surge. I got lucky, and the surge cast Dispel Magic at 9th level on me, taking away my Mage Armor and the temp HP I'd gotten from an earlier wild magic surge (starving kids in Africa could have eaten those temp HP). After waiting a few hours, the leucrotta wandered off and I attempted, once again, to leave the vicinity or at least find a place to hide. Another poor stealth check later and I was blasting hyenas with Magic Missile. At this point, the gnolls themselves started to rouse, and I knew I had to leave fast. One Invisibility later, and I was free, though I had alerted the gnolls to my presence.

Apparently, they were suppose to rest for a few days after gorging themselves on the village we had come from. But since a "survivor" (me) had been spotted, they're now marching back to the village to find me and finish the job. I'm rushing to meet up with my party members before the gnolls descend on them unaware. There's a valley with a creek running through it that we might be able to use to set up a trap, but we probably won't have more than an hour or two to prepare anything after we meet up. Or we could hide and engage in guerrilla tactics all the way back to the village.

They will be in a forest, so I might be able to burn them up, but I'd also like to not burn down the forest.

All in all, I suppose it could have been worse. 20 gnolls is, I think, manageable if we're smart about it. There's at least two leucrottas, maybe more, and they could be a real problem if we can't isolate them.