Werewolf Lord

[cartejos]

First level taken as crusader
Second taken as lycanthrope template class
Third as dire wolf (werewolf lord)
Alternate until taking the third lycanthrope class level at 6, then finish taking dire wolf levela at 10
Ur-Priest 2/RKV 8 for 8th level spells with high enough wis

Is this a build that could survive with a DWK DFA, Killer Gnome, Elven Cleric Lich (dm is super cool and designed a high level caster ritual that would tranform you into a lich woth a huge expenditure of resources, but no la)

The goal isnt necessarily to pull weight, but more for a Crusader of the Moon First Lycanthrope type thing, some combat help would be niceto provide but I understand my character probably wont have the spotlight often

[sleepyphoenixx]

You'll do okay once you reach high levels but actually getting there will be incredibly boring.
If you're starting at low levels you'll spend the majority of your time with nothing but your one Crusader level and the quite sub-par animal HD. It'll be painful for sure.

Honestly? I'd save it for a campaign that already starts at a higher level. It's a decent enough build but i can't imagine actually playing through it to be any fun.

[cartejos]

Combat and Out-of-Combat roles I probably won't be able to fill well in the beginning, but most of my enjoyment at lower levels isn't the rolls or abilities I have, it's more that I enjoy driving conflict and plot in interesting directions. Most of the rest of the party is keeping there more interesting bits (DWK, Lich, ScM) to a minimum, cause they might get a book to the head. Playing with a level of crusader and some animal hd should be low power enough for me to be as 'wild' with it as I want to. "Hey mr. king-ly man, I know you said you wouldn't pay more than a few gp, but...." *transforms* "You see, you ain't never had a friend like me"

[ShurikVch]

Warning: Ur-Priest is incompatible with RKV

[noob]

Warning: Ur-Priest is incompatible with RKV

In which way?
Once you became an ur priest you can then go to any alignment it just makes you unable to take more levels in ur priest.
(you could even go ur priest x/prestige paladin 1/ radiant servant of pelor Y)
Unless you are one of those people who says dragon disciples are unable to benefit from his ability turning it into a creature of the dragon type because this ability makes it stop qualifying.

[Boci]

In which way?
Once you became an ur priest you can then go to any alignment it just makes you unable to take more levels in ur priest.
Unless you are one of those people who says dragon disciples are unable to benefit from his ability turning it into a creature of the dragon type because this ability makes it stop qualifying.

Or one of those people who say "You must continue to meet the requirements of a prestige class to gain its benefits. Dragon Discipline, and other PrCs which disqualify themselves with ability granted by the class itself are an exception to this rule".

or

"You must continue to meet the requirements of a prestige class to gain its benefits. Yes yes, Dragon Discipline, I know, but since I've never had a player use that Prestige Class in all my years of playing, I also don't really care".

[noob]

Or one of those people who say "You must continue to meet the requirements of a prestige class to gain its benefits. Dragon Discipline, and other PrCs which disqualify themselves with ability granted by the class itself are an exception to this rule".

or

"You must continue to meet the requirements of a prestige class to gain its benefits. Yes yes, Dragon Discipline, I know, but since I've never had a player use that Prestige Class in all my years of playing, I also don't really care".

there is a lot of other transformative prcs that makes the user stop qualify.

[ShurikVch]

In which way?By the fluff:
The Ruby Knights are a crusader order in the service of Wee Jas, goddess of death and magic. Inscrutable and mysterious, these secretive warriors serve as the militant arm of the Jasite faith. They protect the temples of Wee Jas, guard important leaders of the church, aid powerful sorcerers and necromancers sworn to the Witch Goddess, and help to train novice clergy.
...
ADAPTATION
Although this prestige class is specific to a single crusader order - the Ruby Knights of Wee Jas - you could easily adapt it to crusaders devoted to almost any other deity. For example, the faiths of Hextor, Vecna, or St. Cuthbert could easily support secret vindicator organizations. If you replace the requirement for Devoted Spirit stances and maneuvers with another martial discipline (Iron Heart or Tiger Claw, for instance), it becomes much easier to qualify for the class without being a crusader - which means that you could create holy (or unholy) orders of warblade/clerics, fighter/clerics, or rogue/clerics.
Ur-priests despise gods. However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity. Instead, each day they go into a trance and mentally steal the power that gods normally channel to devout clerics. Ur-priests are canny and cunning, never stealing too much power from any one deity, but instead metaphysically slip in, draw out the power they need for their spells, and slip out again. They learn to be resilient toward divine power and creative with the energies that they steal. The greatest ur-priest commands the level of power of the most powerful cleric, although she does not have the cleric’s variety of spellcasting options.
A member of any class can become an ur-priest, even - and in fact, especially - an ex-cleric.
Ur-priests frequently work alone, although they occasionally find partnerships with members of other classes useful. They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.

[noob]

By the fluff:

When you fall as an ur priest you can probably still siphon spells from gods since their power does not comes from the hatred of the gods but they learn this power due to that.
It is even suggested in some extra fluff than priests of gods that die can become ur priests in an attempt to get power to possibly bring back their own god.
Then that second prc does not exclude followers of dead gods.
you might even say "I am planning to ihs the death of my god but I need more awesomeness and rudisplorkness" or some other stuff like that

[CIDE]

Given the relative freedom in regards to worship with clerics and the fact that you can even worship an idea I don't see a problem with a RKV and Ur Priest working together. The only thing I'd ask is whether or not this would end up being too much for a given party since it could potentially be a pretty strong combination.

All that said I Hate like 90% of the alignment restrictions from the Tome of Battle. Some of it just doesn't make sense even in the scope of the fluff presented.

[ShurikVch]

When you fall as an ur priest you can probably still siphon spells from gods since their power does not comes from the hatred of the gods but they learn this power due to that.The problem there is: Ur-priests are literally stealing from a gods; no deity ever will support them
(Well, at least - unless the rebuild of all levels in the Ur-priest class...)


It is even suggested in some extra fluff than priests of gods that die can become ur priests in an attempt to get power to possibly bring back their own god.In that case - tangential problem:
Crusaders are unique among martial adepts, relying on f lashes of divine inspiration to use their martial maneuvers. As such, you do not control access to your readied maneuvers.No deity - no divine inspiration
No divine inspiration - no readied maneuvers... :smallfrown:


Then that second prc does not exclude followers of dead gods.Which "second prc"?



Given the relative freedom in regards to worship with clerics and the fact that you can even worship an idea I don't see a problem with a RKV and Ur Priest working together.This thing:
They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.


All that said I Hate like 90% of the alignment restrictions from the Tome of Battle. Some of it just doesn't make sense even in the scope of the fluff presented.Please, excuse me, but which "90% of the alignment restrictions from the Tome of Battle" you're talking about?
AFAIK, Tome of Battle is fairly liberal in that regard:
Crusader - non-Neutral
Avenging Strike - Any good alignment
Jade Phoenix Mage - Any nonevil
Shadow Sun Ninja - Any good
IMHO, it's all pretty well-justified by the fluff (and, anyway, isn't numerous at all)

[cartejos]

If you wish to continue debate I ask that you please start a new thread for it. As for ur priest and rkv, I could have stood to mention that this character is worshipping an elder evil living inside the moon, and the dm took out the wee jas tag in rkv, as well as a lot of the other deity requirements(aka need to check with the dm before taking anything requiring worship, and it may be waived)

[noob]

Crusaders are unique among martial adepts, relying on f lashes of divine inspiration to use their martial maneuvers. As such, you do not control access to your readied maneuvers.
I see no problems if you are stealing power from the gods to steal inspiration from them.
It is specified that crusaders can work for a cause rather than a god(if you read more crusader fluff) so you could get your crusader powers from a cause rather than a god if you want to.
So your crusader dedicated to a cause(such as bringing back its dead god) could also be a follower of a dead god that learned to siphon powers from the other gods(ur priest variant fluff) and then as a person devoted to a god(whenever it is alive or not does not matters) he can get levels in rkv too.
I see no problems in that.

Or you could be a tsundere crusader of wee jas that despise all the gods but love wee jas while despising it and hating it and who become an ur priest because he despise and hate all the gods then who becomes a rkv because he dedicate itself to wee jas even through he hates him because hate and love are not incompatible.


The problem there is: Ur-priests are literally stealing from a gods; no deity ever will support them
(Well, at least - unless the rebuild of all levels in the Ur-priest class...)
You do not need someone to like you or support you for working for that person or for being devoted to that person.
you could even have the person to which you are devoted trying to kill you and it gives no problems you could still be devoted to that person.
rkv only needs to be devoted and never to have support from the god to which he is devoted.
And even if you are stealing power from the gods nothing says you have no control over the god from which you steal power so you could steal power only to the gods opposing your god and then your god might even appreciate that if that god is not very lawful.


They do not congregate into anything resembling temples, for they fear that too many of them in one place might draw unwanted divine attention. And of course they rarely associate with clerics or any other divine spellcasters, whom they see as lackeys and who view them as abominations.
An order is not a temple and you can have a secret order with a single person(Which is normal for example if you are a rkv of a dead god since those kind of people might want to keep a low profile as long as their god is dead and it is near impossible to recruit for a dead god) if you like being alone and no associations with other divine spellcasters is needed for rkv or crusader you can associate with only yourself if you want to.

[CIDE]

This thing:

)

I'm not seeing your point here? Are you trying to say a RKV is forced to congregate, use temples, etc?



Please, excuse me, but which "90% of the alignment restrictions from the Tome of Battle" you're talking about?
AFAIK, Tome of Battle is fairly liberal in that regard:
Crusader - non-Neutral
Avenging Strike - Any good alignment
Jade Phoenix Mage - Any nonevil
Shadow Sun Ninja - Any good
IMHO, it's all pretty well-justified by the fluff (and, anyway, isn't numerous at all)

I dislike the fact that Crusaders can't be neutral. There's no reason why a person of neutral alignment can't have the inspiration, drive, and conviction in a cause that would prevent them from being a Crusader. Right off the top of my head the idea of someone pushing for law or balance between good and evil are justification enough.

I'd have to reread Jade Phoenix mage since I'm AFB (storage) but I'm pretty sure I disagreed with the reasoning way back. I also had no problems with Avenging Strike.

Shadow Sun Ninja reads like it should be neutral. The entire concept of the class is based on balancing between good and evil and positive and negative. Why would it be limited to any good? And, going by the reasoning of certain other books, wouldn't a lot of the SSN features push said character further and further away from any good alignment? Inevitably disqualifying them from the class? Not even getting into the capstone.

[Buddy76]

If Dungeon Magazine is allowed, issue 84 has the Winter Werewolf template which grants you more power for the same LA and the 6 RHD you'd have to take are magical beast's (giving you d10's instead of d8's, higher BAB and dark vision).

[cartejos]

If Dungeon Magazine is allowed, issue 84 has the Winter Werewolf template which grants you more power for the same LA and the 6 RHD you'd have to take are magical beast's (giving you d10's instead of d8's, higher BAB and dark vision).

That would be a nice fit, though there isnt a template class for it, I will talk with the dm about possibly adjusting the WWL class to fit in the abilities of the winter wolf though, thank you for an actual suggestion instead of arguing about semantics of classes and alignment on a thread for build advice

[ShurikVch]

As for ur priest and rkv, I could have stood to mention that this character is worshipping an elder evil living inside the moon, and the dm took out the wee jas tag in rkv, as well as a lot of the other deity requirements(aka need to check with the dm before taking anything requiring worship, and it may be waived)I'm glad you're actually checked it with the DM
If you added "Approved by the DM" to the original post, it could spare you from some unnecessary debate


...
...By the request of cartejos:
If you wish to continue debate I ask that you please start a new thread for it.I made the new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?566642-Continue-of-debate-from-the-Werewolf-Lord-thread&p=23302187#post23302187).

[Bronk]

If Dungeon Magazine is allowed, issue 84 has the Winter Werewolf template which grants you more power for the same LA and the 6 RHD you'd have to take are magical beast's (giving you d10's instead of d8's, higher BAB and dark vision).

I looked that up, and it was cooler than I thought it was. You can bite and use your breath weapon at the same time! That's super convenient.