Magic mantle Ardent arcane archer

[daremetoidareyo]

The magic mantle allows psionics to count as magic, and the Arcane Archer allows you to use area spells in their imbued arrows. What area of effect powers are good for those imbued arrows?

[PrismCat21]

The magic mantle allows psionics to count as magic, and the Arcane Archer allows you to use area spells in their imbued arrows. What area of effect powers are good for those imbued arrows?


Granted Power:
In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical. Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.


Requirements:
Ability to cast 1st-level Arcane spells.

Imbue Arrow (Sp)
At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow.

Look at the Magic Mantle granted power again. Look at the example given. Look up Magic-Psionic Transparency.
Please, show me where it says anything about spells and powers being transferrable, anywhere.
Spells are different than Powers.
Powers are different than Spells.
Magic Mantle does nothing to change that. - It says magic, and psionics. Not Spells and Powers.

Arcane Archer allows Spells to be placed upon an arrow, not Powers. Nothing changes that.
You 'could' justify using Divine spells since it just specifies 'spells', and not 'Arcane spells. That is obviously against the intention though.
Spell-Like Abilities won't work.
Powers won't work.
Only spells.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's not the question.

[PrismCat21]

that wasn't the question

The question was based on a false premise. If you're going to ignore the fact you can't apply powers, why then limit the type of powers?
Put any power you want on there. Put multiple powers on a single arrow. Put personal only powers on them and buff your allies. Why any limits at all?

You know what, let's take a look at your question.

What area of effect powers are good for those imbued arrows?
Since you can't imbue powers into arrows through Arcane Archer, you must mean area of effect powers that will help those arrows do their job.
The only ones that come to mind are Eradicate Invisibility - hard to hit near what you can't see.
Stomp and Psionics Grease - keeps them stationary making it easier to place them in your arrow's area of effect. You ignore the -4 from them being prone because you don't actually have to hit them.
My Light - ... maybe. It's light comes from you, but does effect an area, letting see in darkened areas.

I would have said, Metaphysical weapon, Prevenom weapon, Dissolving weapon, and Truevenom Weapon, but those aren't area of effect powers, so wasn't part of the question.

Hope I helped :)

[martixy]

I'm not sure there will be all that many things that you can't already do with magic. Blasting's out. There is very little, if anything, that psionics can do that magic can't.

Maybe divert teleport, which could have some interesting tactical applications.

Even Affinity field's abuse potential is intrinsic to itself, placing it somewhere else benefits you only marginally. I mean, you can already do telekinetic sphere shenanigans which is roughly the same. Although, I suppose having your Affinity field on a different plane than you could have some neat applications. But we're going in uncharted territory here.

[Troacctid]

Psionics already count as magic without the Magic Mantle. I'd rather just be a Psion and have more powers.

[Psyren]

Even if your GM goes for the "super-transparency" reading (I... don't), there is little in the way of psionics you can stick on an arrow that magic doesn't do better. And if it's just action economy you're after, there are less questionable ways.

[Darrin]

The question was based on a false premise.


No, it's not.

XPH p. 53 explains "Psionics-Magic Transparency". It has the following effects:

Spell Resistance and Power Resistance are interchangeable.
Dispel magic and dispel psionics are interchangeable.
Detect magic can be used to detect psionics, although a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline.
Dead magic areas are also dead psionic areas.


Now, if we go by strict RAW, then that doesn't mean all psionic/spell effects are interchangeable, just those listed above. The text assumes that most campaigns will have Psionics-Magic Transparency "on" by default, but individual DMs/campaigns will vary.

The Magic Mantle does not word things the same way. In particular, this sentence stands out:

"In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

There isn't a lot of explanation about how this works mechanically, but this is a fundamentally different statement than the typical "Psionics-Magic Transparency" rules from the XPH. This makes the Magic Mantle useful for two purposes:

1) As mentioned in the text, it's a RAW-legal way for an Ardent to turn on the "Psionics-Magic Transparency" rules for that particular character if the DM has already decided the campaign does not use the Transparency rules.

2) It allows an Ardent with the Magic Mantle to treat spells as powers and powers as spells outside of those specific spells/powers mentioned in the Transparency rules.

The question is not whether #2 is a valid interpretation of the rules. Yes, there's an argument that it's not what the designers intended, and they should maybe have explained it a little better, or maybe not used the term "identical". But #2 for certain DMs/groups, assuming #2 is RAW legal is just as valid as saying Thicket of Blades trumps Tumble or vice versa. The question daremetoidareyo was asking wasn't whether this was a valid interpretation of the rules.

He was asking, *GIVEN* that the DM and player agrees that spells and powers are identical and interchangeable, which various psionic powers would work well with Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow ability?

So... assuming that's settled... let's look at Imbue Arrow, rephrased with the Magic Mantle in mind:



Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area power upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the power’s area is centered on where the arrow lands, even if the power could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the power’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the power and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the power is cast, or the power is wasted.

[Bold Text: "spell" replaced with "power".]

Unfortunately, the text does not define exactly what an "area power" or "area spell" would be, and the designers tended to be very sloppy when specifying spell attributes, because they frequently confuse "Target:", "Range:", and "Area:" attributes, sometimes describing area effects in the Target/Range line, sometimes specifying targets in the Range line, and so forth. But we can perhaps assume they meant a power with an "Area:" attribute of some sort. To best use Imbue Arrow, we probably want to look for powers with an "Area:" of some sort and a short/close "Range:" attribute. Unfortunately, a lot of the best area-effect powers already have medium to long range, which means the additional range from the bow probably isn't going to help much (and very few DMs bother to start an encounter with enemies at long range).

My grasp of psionics is a little weak, so I was mostly looking at blasty powers. Some good candidates to consider:

Energy Burst: Fixed 40' range becomes 300'+, which is a nice upgrade.

Energy Current: This may not be exactly an "area" power, but... close range, and it arcs to additional targets within 15', but the concentration requirement is annoying. Still, solicit psicrystal is a thing.

Energy Stun: Blasty, close range, save for half and then save vs. stun.

Breath of the Black Dragon: I have never quite understood how cones are supposed to work with Arcane Archer...? Does the archer pick a direction for the cone, or do you assume it's in the direction the arrow was traveling, or do you roll the direction randomly? Also, it doesn't say how far out the cone goes, so presumably it goes out to the end of the "Range:" of the spell... but if you're substitute the range of the power with the range of the bow... that's a very, very large cone!

Catapsi: Only useful against psionic enemies, but a lovely long-range surprise that normally only works within 30' of the manifester.

Demoralize: Essentially Will save vs. shaken, but a good 1st-level save-or-suck that only costs 1 PP, great duration, and is normally a 30' spread centered on the manifester. You can also spend PP to increase the area.

Disable: I'm puzzled on what this power actually does... affected creatures are what, exactly? Staggered? Do they cower or retreat, because those are mutually exclusive actions? Imbue Arrow would only work on low-level mooks (under 4 HD) vulnerable to mind-affecting, but might be useful for cleaning up cannonfodder. Again the question of what to do with the "cone", and you can also spend PP to increase the "range" (of the bow?).

Dispel Psionics: It's already medium range, but this old standby is always a crowd-pleaser.

Mental Disruption: Will save vs. daze, which is unfortunately still mind-affecting. Upgrading the 10' range is obviously a perk, and area is normally a 10' spread, but you can spend PP to increase it.

Microcosm: 9th level spell that is unfortunately still mind-affecting. It does have an area effect with a 15' radius but... only affects creatures with 30 HP or less? No save, but still... not sure I'd waste a pick of a 9th level power on this.

Null Psionics Field: Possibly the best option for Imbue Arrow, although Arcane Archers spamming AMFs was already a fairly well-known tactic. I don't see any particular advantage the psionic version has over the non-psionic.

Psionic Blast: Not sure why you'd take this over Energy Burst, and it's a cone as well as mind-affecting, so probably something you want to skip.

Swarm of Crystals: Cone/range issues... not sure if I'd take this over burning hands or energy arc.

Ultrablast: 15' radius spread, but it's still mind-affecting, which is annoying.

Affinity Field, Pain: This is a bit too fiddly when you could pick some other 9th-level power to just kill them directly.

Energy Arc: Essentially burning hands done psionics-style, but does not cap out at 5d4.

Heavy Earth: Possibly the best stand-out winner for Imbue Arrow, as you can now avoid slowing yourself! Fort save negates, but even on a successful save, targets are slowed for 1 round. With a longer-range bow, allows you to "lock down" enemies at range, who can only respond with a single move or standard action.

[Troacctid]

No, it's not.

XPH p. 53 explains "Psionics-Magic Transparency". It has the following effects:

Spell Resistance and Power Resistance are interchangeable.
Dispel magic and dispel psionics are interchangeable.
Detect magic can be used to detect psionics, although a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline.
Dead magic areas are also dead psionic areas.


Now, if we go by strict RAW, then that doesn't mean all psionic/spell effects are interchangeable, just those listed above. The text assumes that most campaigns will have Psionics-Magic Transparency "on" by default, but individual DMs/campaigns will vary.

The Magic Mantle does not word things the same way. In particular, this sentence stands out:

"In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical."

There isn't a lot of explanation about how this works mechanically, but this is a fundamentally different statement than the typical "Psionics-Magic Transparency" rules from the XPH.
Dude. It says right in the ability that it's the default rule. Come on. Read the whole thing.


2) It allows an Ardent with the Magic Mantle to treat spells as powers and powers as spells outside of those specific spells/powers mentioned in the Transparency rules.

The question is not whether #2 is a valid interpretation of the rules.
How is that not a question? Even if you don't think it just refers to the standard transparency rules, it says it makes psionics identical to magic, not powers identical to spells. And even if it did, it explicitly says that most campaigns already treat them that way, which means the Magic Mantle isn't "unlocking" anything that you didn't have access to without it.

[Zaq]

Dude. It says right in the ability that it's the default rule. Come on. Read the whole thing.


How is that not a question? Even if you don't think it just refers to the standard transparency rules, it says it makes psionics identical to magic, not powers identical to spells. And even if it did, it explicitly says that most campaigns already treat them that way, which means the Magic Mantle isn't "unlocking" anything that you didn't have access to without it.

I don't quite see what the problem is, then? The question is still about what powers are interesting to imbue into arrows. If I'm reading you correctly, your stance is "you can already stick powers into arrows without the Magic mantle" and not "the Magic mantle doesn't let this trick work," so the real meat of the topic ("which powers do we want to imbue into arrows?" rather than "does the Magic mantle work with Arcane Archer?") is still relevant.

I don't have too many suggestions for interesting powers, though. I know that there are a handful of powers that have obnoxiously long manifesting times (especially compared to their traditional-magic equivalents) as some kind of balancing factor, but I don't know if many (or any) of them have the "area" component necessary to be compatible with Imbue Arrow.

[Troacctid]

I don't quite see what the problem is, then? The question is still about what powers are interesting to imbue into arrows. If I'm reading you correctly, your stance is "you can already stick powers into arrows without the Magic mantle" and not "the Magic mantle doesn't let this trick work," so the real meat of the topic ("which powers do we want to imbue into arrows?" rather than "does the Magic mantle work with Arcane Archer?") is still relevant.
No, my stance is that interpreting the Magic Mantle to work that way involves ignoring important context. "You can already stick powers into arrows" is an obviously wrong consequence of that interpretation which illustrates its absurdity.