Seeking advice on Druids and concentration...

[samcifer]

So as I've said elsewhere, half of all possible spells druids can use are concentration spells. However, my plan is to mostly attack using summoned creatures while hanging out in the back unless I want to occasionally mix things up by going melee instead of being the coach on the sidelines. When I'm not in melee, how often would concentration checks be needed? I know I'll be attacked sometimes, but how much should I worry? Should I get both Resilient CON and Warcaster or will only 1 be needed? If so, which of the two is more important to have?

For reference, I'll be having 15 DEX (16 of I can forego one of the feats), and 14 CON (13 if I don't need the Resilient CON) on my lv. 8 character.

[nickl_2000]

So as I've said elsewhere, half of all possible spells druids can use are concentration spells. However, my plan is to mostly attack using summoned creatures while hanging out in the back unless I want to occasionally mix things up by going melee instead of being the coach on the sidelines. When I'm not in melee, how often would concentration checks be needed? I know I'll be attacked sometimes, but how much should I worry? Should I get both Resilient CON and Warcaster or will only 1 be needed? If so, which of the two is more important to have?

For reference, I'll be having 15 DEX (16 of I can forego one of the feats), and 14 CON (13 if I don't need the Resilient CON) on my lv. 8 character.

I've got a level 9 Moon Druid who has played since level 1 with 18 Constitution. I've played the character as melee for moon druid, with having concentration spells up most of the time. In that entire time I've lost concentration once (it sucked really badly when it happened, but hey). So, I don't see the need for both Warcaster and Resilient Con, if you are at an odd Con score go resilient, if not go Warcaster.

[MrStabby]

It depends on the DM and on the style of campaign to be honest.

Big Dumb Beasts? Yeah, they probably attack the closest target.

Ambush by trained soldiers? Probably target casters more - so you may get a few hits but probably safe till the wizard/sorcerer is down. Expect more targeting if they know you are focused on something.

Otherwise just look out for splash damage from fireballs of opportunity.

[samcifer]

The DM is my fiancé this time and it's his first time as DM, so none of us have any idea what to expect from him. I can't ask him for obvious reasons. In fact, he grumbled to me last night while watching The Daily Show how he has all these awesome ideas he can't talk with me about because I'll be a pc for this campaign. >.<

[samcifer]

I've got a level 9 Moon Druid who has played since level 1 with 18 Constitution. I've played the character as melee for moon druid, with having concentration spells up most of the time. In that entire time I've lost concentration once (it sucked really badly when it happened, but hey). So, I don't see the need for both Warcaster and Resilient Con, if you are at an odd Con score go resilient, if not go Warcaster.

TBH, I WOULD prefer to have 18 WIS and 16 DEX, that'd increase my accuracy with both weapons and spells as well as give me one more prepared spell, a higher spell save dc for the enemies to overcome and +1 initiative and +1 AC.

[Amano666]

Are you playing a Land Druid or a Moon Druid? Or one of the Xanthars/UA circle?

"When I'm not in melee, how often would concentration checks be needed? " Totally DM and situation dependent, there is no way to give an average or estimate because combat situations are dynamic. The DM might play the monsters as smart tacticians, smart enough to know that that elemental you summoned will turn on the party if they make you break concentration, or they might never target you because the pole arm master fighter in your party with the sentinel feat is keeping them at bay. You might be in a situation that forces concentration checks every turn because of environment/traps/arrows, or you might never have to make one, who knows? The question really is, how much is your party going to depend on you maintaining concentration, sometimes it might be life or death, other times perhaps not.

"How much should I worry"
Concentration checks are usually important, as you point out there are a lot of concentration druid spells. I would build my druid to maintain concentration. There are also some things that you could do to help keep yourself from being targeted, wild shape comes to mind.

"Should I get both Resilient CON and Warcaster or will only 1 be needed?" Once my wisdom score was 20 i would try and pick up Resilient CON. If playing Vhuman I would consider it a really good choice for a level 1 feat.

"I'll be having 15 DEX (16 of I can forego one of the feats), and 14 CON (13 if I don't need the Resilient CON) on my lv. 8 character." For a level 8 character I would swap the dex and con scores. The dex is nice to have, helps AC. But the CON is superior in my opinion, the extra con is giving you both more HP per level (8+2+(~7x7) =59 vs (8+3+(~8x7) = 67 and helping you maintain concentration. I personally value on a caster druid WIS>CON>DEX>STR/CHA/INT

[nickl_2000]

TBH, I WOULD prefer to have 18 WIS and 16 DEX, that'd increase my accuracy with both weapons and spells as well as give me one more prepared spell, a higher spell save dc for the enemies to overcome and +1 initiative and +1 AC.

Why do you need 16 dex? You are a Druid, you can melee attack with Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip, or Shilleigh. You can wear Medium AC 14 Spiked Armor from SCAG without any problems.

[samcifer]

Are you playing a Land Druid or a Moon Druid? Or one of the Xanthars/UA circle?

"When I'm not in melee, how often would concentration checks be needed? " Totally DM and situation dependent, there is no way to give an average or estimate because combat situations are dynamic. The DM might play the monsters as smart tacticians, smart enough to know that that elemental you summoned will turn on the party if they make you break concentration, or they might never target you because the pole arm master fighter in your party with the sentinel feat is keeping them at bay. You might be in a situation that forces concentration checks every turn because of environment/traps/arrows, or you might never have to make one, who knows? The question really is, how much is your party going to depend on you maintaining concentration, sometimes it might be life or death, other times perhaps not.

"How much should I worry"
Concentration checks are usually important, as you point out there are a lot of concentration druid spells. I would build my druid to maintain concentration. There are also some things that you could do to help keep yourself from being targeted, wild shape comes to mind.

"Should I get both Resilient CON and Warcaster or will only 1 be needed?" Once my wisdom score was 20 i would try and pick up Resilient CON. If playing Vhuman I would consider it a really good choice for a level 1 feat.

"I'll be having 15 DEX (16 of I can forego one of the feats), and 14 CON (13 if I don't need the Resilient CON) on my lv. 8 character." For a level 8 character I would swap the dex and con scores. The dex is nice to have, helps AC. But the CON is superior in my opinion, the extra con is giving you both more HP per level (8+2+(~7x7) =59 vs (8+3+(~8x7) = 67 and helping you maintain concentration. I personally value on a caster druid WIS>CON>DEX>STR/CHA/INT

Lv. 8 Firbolg Moon Druid.

[samcifer]

Why do you need 16 dex? You are a Druid, you can melee attack with Primal Savagery, Thorn Whip, or Shilleigh. You can wear Medium AC 14 Spiked Armor from SCAG without any problems.

It's a rare type of armor, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get that. :(

Edity: Just looked it over and you have to be a barbarian to get it. It's available to totem barbarians. :(

[nickl_2000]

It's a rare type of armor, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get that. :(

Talk to you DM and ask. You are level 8, you should easily have been able to get a set of rare but non-magical armor by now.

[samcifer]

Talk to you DM and ask. You are level 8, you should easily have been able to get a set of rare but non-magical armor by now.

But it's listed under the Totem Barbarian, so my dm won't likely allow it. He's a real stickler for the rules and wouldn't let me have scale armor made from natural scales like a different dm did for another player in our group for a different campaign. :(

[nickl_2000]

But it's listed under the Totem Barbarian, so my dm won't likely allow it. He's a real stickler for the rules and wouldn't let me have scale armor made from natural scales like a different dm did for another player in our group for a different campaign. :(

Correct (although it is actually referred to in the Path of the Battlerager), in the same way that the double bladed sword is listed in Eberron book. That doesn't mean that it is only accessible to that class. The rules are very specific that if you are a Druid you have access to medium armor and "Spiked armor is a rare type of medium armor." It saying nothing about it only being available to Battleragers, just the battleragers can use it as a weapon.

A DM does have the right to limit access to things in their world, but saying that it's an armor only available to battlerager is a house rule not RAW.

[samcifer]

Okay, so here's another double question... Does the Resilient CON prof. carry over when wild shaped (meaning would I get the +3 to a CON save while in brown bear form, for example)? What about Warcaster's advantage to CON saves? Would I get to roll two times for a CON save while in the shape of a giant snake?

[AvvyR]

Okay, so here's another double question... Does the Resilient CON prof. carry over when wild shaped (meaning would I get the +3 to a CON save while in brown bear form, for example)? What about Warcaster's advantage to CON saves? Would I get to roll two times for a CON save while in the shape of a giant snake?

War Caster should definitely still apply. Resilient is in a grey area that will need DM ruling. Overall, having both is unnecessary. From what I've seen in this thread, War Caster seems better for you either way.

[leogobsin]

Okay, so here's another double question... Does the Resilient CON prof. carry over when wild shaped (meaning would I get the +3 to a CON save while in brown bear form, for example)? What about Warcaster's advantage to CON saves? Would I get to roll two times for a CON save while in the shape of a giant snake?

The first bullet point of wild shape says you keep your skill and saving throw proficiencies, so Resilient definitely still applies. As for War Caster it doesn't seem to have anything to do with your biology so I don't see any reason why it wouldn't still apply.

[Corpsecandle717]

Lv. 8 Firbolg Moon Druid.

Okay, gotta ask, why moon druid?

I've been popping in and out of your threads for the last couple of days and this just keeps question just keeps popping up in the back of my head. The way you intend to play your druid is completely valid, however it's hardly the moon druid's wheelhouse. In fact it's probably the worst druid option you have for the 'stand back and let my minions handle it' strategy. It ignore's the majority of the moon druid's strengths, effectively leaving class features on the table.

It's like buying a box truck so you can haul a couch once every few years.

Is there an RP reason for your choice, some perception you have of the circle, or just something else?

[Citan]

Lv. 8 Firbolg Moon Druid.
Hey, so you finally decided on that then. :)

Okay, gotta ask, why moon druid?

I've been popping in and out of your threads for the last couple of days and this just keeps question just keeps popping up in the back of my head. The way you intend to play your druid is completely valid, however it's hardly the moon druid's wheelhouse. In fact it's probably the worst druid option you have for the 'stand back and let my minions handle it' strategy. It ignore's the majority of the moon druid's strengths, effectively leaving class features on the table.

It's like buying a box truck so you can haul a couch once every few years.

Is there an RP reason for your choice, some perception you have of the circle, or just something else?
I have to say I kinda agree on this.
But I suppose you'd rather go this way precisely so you can style try really different playstyles, whereas Land kinda sticks you as a backliner while Shepherd makes it a difficult choice to cast anything else than conjuration spells.

As for your OP, honestly you can do fine without Warcaster neither Resilient, but those do give a bit of breathing air. Especially if you are unsure how you will actually play.
I'd probably pick Resilient: Constitution first, two reasons.
1. Warcaster gives better "advantage" at low level, but Resilient raises the minimum at which you actually need to roll. And Resilient completely stacks with Wild Shape, there is no doubt or argument to be had imo here, per the wording of second bullet point: "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature". *When* you gained the saving throw proficiency is irrelevant.

2. Concentration is not everything. Of course it's campaign dependant, but many monsters have nasty effect that target CON saves. Especially the melee kind. So if you want to sometimes wage in the front lines as a beast, that does not necessarily have CON proficiency, it's a nice boon.

Beyond that, if/when you plan on sticking into the backlines, just using cantrips (which ones though? Produce Flame has a very limited range, I see only Magic Stone but it's also costing in action economy, and range is not that better, or not at all maybe don't remember) or using sustainable spells, in short, your primary (only) goal is keeping concentration...
Use Mold Earth to create a |_ cover that protect you from a nice angle, kneel behind, just popping up on your turn to act (and check whether enemies try to come to you) then back away. This is not 100% safe of course: archers/casters may Ready action to attack you when popping out, AOE may "go around" your cover if aimed well, and sticking in one point also means a fast/stealthy creature could surprise you.
But you'll still makes it so much harder to target you that a good chunk of enemies will rather divert to easier targets.

[samcifer]

I chose moon for the wider range of forms both in and out of combat. I figure that there'll be times when summoning might not no possible or at least feesable and want an alternative as well as some flexability in combat.

[Naanomi]

Some of it depends on how high a level you suspect you will go. Warcaster is stronger at lower levels, but Resilient: Con starts pulling ahead at the top tier. It also depends somewhat on the type of enemies you face; Resilient can save you from the 'death of a thousand papercut' weak attacks of several opponents perfectly, but Warcaster is somewhat better at getting another shot at negating a big hit.

Also, if you are not getting hit too much anyways (very much a party composition and DM style thing), Lucky has a lot of versatility but can still give you a 'warcaster-lite' reroll attempt if needed

[dejarnjc]

Hey, been playing the same moon druid for 3 years now in my primary game. I've found Resilient (CON) to be more than enough and having the boost to constitution saves is a huge plus as well. I've rarely found situations where warcaster would've been useful. Also, I frequently play in the front lines and rarely lose concentration anyway (though it's definitely does happen from time to time).

Also, IMO a moon druid is just as good as a land druid for a conjure creatures and stand back out of the way style of play. The better beast forms give a good variety of utility, movement, and survivability that aren't necessarily available to land druids. A shepherd druid is technically a better conjurer but I personally love the versatility of the Moon druid and would never change. Plus I love the fantasy of shapeshifting.

[samcifer]

Hey, been playing the same moon druid for 3 years now in my primary game. I've found Resilient (CON) to be more than enough and having the boost to constitution saves is a huge plus as well. I've rarely found situations where warcaster would've been useful. Also, I frequently play in the front lines and rarely lose concentration anyway (though it's definitely does happen from time to time).

Also, IMO a moon druid is just as good as a land druid for a conjure creatures and stand back out of the way style of play. The better beast forms give a good variety of utility, movement, and survivability that aren't necessarily available to land druids. A shepherd druid is technically a better conjurer but I personally love the versatility of the Moon druid and would never change. Plus I love the fantasy of shapeshifting.

Cool, the variety of play styles and adaptability are why I went this route. Thanks again for all the advice. Now I just need to see if I can get that Spiked Armor. My fiancé is a real 'by the book' kind of person, which can be a bit frustrating at times.

[Corpsecandle717]

I chose moon for the wider range of forms both in and out of combat. I figure that there'll be times when summoning might not no possible or at least feesable and want an alternative as well as some flexability in combat.

If this is the case, I'd suggest you just assume that when you get into a bit of trouble you're going to shift into an animal form and shred face or bug out.

So here's a couple of things to take into account.

1) The 'metal armor' restriction on Druids is a taboo, there are no RAW repercussions for a druid throwing on a suit of half plate and smacking a couple kobolds around. Any penalty is entirely up to the DM. Sage Advice has corroborated this.

2) It's very easy for a Druid to take a feat as we're not starved at all. You can pick up a feat to improve your initiative at 12.

3) While HP and spell slots are limited resources, they don't have the same value. For a moon druid losing a bit of HP is no big deal, at 8th level a moon druid has access to well over 100 hp. Losing a spell you're concentrating on is far more detrimental, you've lost that spell slot with no way to get it back. Sure AC reduces the number of melee attacks you receive, however that's only part of combat. ANY damage causes you to make a concentration check to maintain a spell. Wizards with their pesky fireballs, Warlocks with their eldritch lasers, hail; they're also going to be forcing those concentration rolls.

Personally I like warcaster over resilient. My DM allowed me to pick up some Basilisk scale mail and I am often in melee in my natural form (because why not). Warcaster gives me the choice to use primal savagery and an AoO or carry a shield and a weapon if I like.

[Maelynn]

When I'm not in melee, how often would concentration checks be needed?

The PHB (203) has a list:

- cast another concentration spell, you'll lose concentration on the first
- take physical damage triggers a check - CON, DC(10 or half damage)
- get yourself incapacitated or killed, you'll lose concentration
- 'environmental phenomena' at your DM's discretion

That's it. The latter one is the only one that's tricky, but your DM has to be reasonable. He can let you roll when, say, a tree falls over and you need to jump aside, but he can't let you roll just because he feels like it.


The DM is my fiancé this time and it's his first time as DM, so none of us have any idea what to expect from him. I can't ask him for obvious reasons. In fact, he grumbled to me last night while watching The Daily Show how he has all these awesome ideas he can't talk with me about because I'll be a pc for this campaign. >.<

God, I know his pain. A good friend of mine, whom I often discuss D&D stuff with, was first in line to join my party when I told him I wanted to become a DM. I have all these great ideas and plot twists and fun little details... but I can't talk about them with him. It's agonising. :<