Arthas VS Xykon

[Lord]

Welcome ladies and gentlemen, we have a very special presentation in store for you. A good old fashion death match!!!

In the one corner he's a high level lich who has enough power to destroy entire armes. He has wiped Azure city off the face of the earth, and killed Archmages, Paladins, PCs, NPCs, Druids, and anything else you can think of. Among his abilities are raising undead. Meteor storm. Along with the ever popular fireball.

In the other corner. The prince of Lorderon. A great warrior. Not to mention Lord of the Undead Scourge!!! He's made almost half of Azaroth into a undead infested hell hole!!! Among his abilities is the ever popular death coil. The ability to kill undead for healing. Not to mention the raising of armies of monstrosities without soul or fear.

The rules are...

Each character starts with 200 ghouls/zombies, Thirty abominations/Ogre zombies, and 100 Nurubians/200 hobgoblin archers.
No raising more undead.
No hitting below the belt.
No timestop on Xykons part.
No raising invincible undead on Arthas's Part.

[Chronos]

Xykon can fly, and almost all of his spells are long-range. Arthas can't fly, and his only ranged attack doesn't hurt undead; it heals them. What was the question, again?

Oh, yeah, you're including minions. Xykon can kill a few hundred minions with a single spell. Arthas can kill one minion at a time. And even if Arthas has some archers among his minions, they can't get through Xykon's damage reduction.

[Actana]

Post Lich-King Arthas or Pre Lich-King Arthas.

If post: Arthas all the way.
If pre: Arthas all the way. :smallwink:

Arthas wins in both badassness and coolness. Wait, and in combat too. :smallamused:

[Lord]

Post, and I personally agree with you. I just didn't want to sound biased.

[Alfryd]

Unfortunately, this battle essentially comes down to a contest between Blizzard's laywer squad and the estate of Michael Moorcock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric).

[Malpik Azhurer]

In 1 on 1 Xykon would easily win, but if Artha's minions are able to distract Xykon, Arthas may have a Chance

[Actana]

Post Lich-King? Is there even any question about it? I mean, he's a freaking god! He's the one most powerful entity on Azeroth, he is like level 40 or something. There is no way Xykon could match him, able to fly or not. Heck, he can have his time stop. Arthas would still kick him to the moon and back.

...
But he can't match the lawyers! :smallbiggrin:

[Kaelaroth]

Arthas. As he is freaking resistant to magic!

[Iamyourking]

Don't forget that fact that he is the very best at no less than four different kinds of magic (Although he can't use the last)

Shamanism
Warlockism
Necromancy
Holy Power

Xykon can have fly and timestop, nothing can stop Arthas except for Sargeras.

[tannish2]

at the end of TFT arthas becomes the lich KING (or the lich king posesses him.... something like that

so really xykon wouldnt have a chance. also im guessing blizzard would have better lawyers (which is what it would come down to in the end if one didnt end instantly) him being part of a huge evil international corporation.....

[Querzis]

If we refer to the power he had in W3 then Xykon wins...but all the heroes were a lot weaker in the game then in the lore (which is normal because otherwise it would have been way too easy). I mean in one of the book, Thrall, who had just recently became a shaman, pretty much destroyed and conquered Durnholde, one of the greatest human fortress ever, all by himself and quite easely too. Thrall is a shaman who doesnt just use the elements now but totally control them and Arthas is even stronger then Thrall! Even before he became the Lich king, Arthas almost killed Illidan and Illidan is definitly a stronger sorcerer then Xykon and if we are talking about after he became the Lich King, its not even a contest. Arthas and Ner'zhul, since they merged together, are freaking gods. Xykon is powerfull, but he still cant kill a god. Though maybe he'll be able to after he absorb the power of the Snarl.

[BRC]

Don't forget that fact that he is the very best at no less than four different kinds of magic (Although he can't use the last)

Shamanism
Warlockism
Necromancy
Holy Power

Xykon can have fly and timestop, nothing can stop Arthas except for Sargeras.

Several things wrong with that
1: though Ner'Zul was a powerful shaman, shamanism is the shaman asking the elements for aid. there are several instances where shamans have angered the elements and are not able to cast spells. I would not say arthas is a shaman at all.
2: When arthas went death knight he lost his abilities as a paladin, and I don't think he was ever the best paladin, that title belongs to Uther who arthas killed with the aid of his minions.
3:I have seen no instances where arthas is portrayed as a powerful warlock, he has no command or control over demons or their abilities. Nerzul might be a skilled warlock, but I wouldn't call him the most powerful by far. Gul'dan was much more powerful then Nerzul in terms of being a warlock.

[JasonDoomsblade]

Um...Arthas DID kill Illidan. Didn't you see their fight scene at the end of the Undead Campaign? It was all 3D and cool!

FYI the Lich King CONTROLS the Undead, so Xykon is pretty much at Arthas' mercy.

[BRC]

Um...Arthas DID kill Illidan. Didn't you see their fight scene at the end of the Undead Campaign? It was all 3D and cool!

FYI the Lich King CONTROLS the Undead, so Xykon is pretty much at Arthas' mercy.
No he dosn't, ever heard of the Forsaken?
The Lich King controls the vast majority of the undead, but not all of them. and the OP laid out the numbers available to each side.

[Kai Maera]

I would have to assume that a lich would lose against the fusion of a death knight and the lich king. Being as he's a death knight, Arthas' troops would be affected by his powerful aura which isn't worth remembering the name of, thereby making them better than Xykon's.

More to the point, though, Arthas' base damage was, like, 25 at first level.

And in WoW his damage will easily push the tens of thousands.
And there's only one way to do that kind of damage in D&D...
Vengeful Gaze of God 305d6 damage. Assuming you Xykon has "3,771,000 gp; 76 days; 150,840 XP. Seed: destroy " AND can take the 200d6 backlash.

[GolemsVoice]

Arthas. My Warcraft fanboy soul can't allow it to be otherwise. But also, your fight is ill-matched. Xykon, being from the DnD universe, can use any spell ever invented, and these are legion. Arthas can only use his three powers and his level 6 ultimate. (Though what powers he might harness as the Lich Kinge is a matter of discussion) However, both are different systems. So, either you limit Xykon to three abilities + one ultimate, maybe going with the powers of the Lich from Warcraft, or you figure out what Arthas would be in DnD (probably an insane mix of rogue, fighter, mage and all that, kind of like Elminster) and what spells he could use. But either way, Xykon just cannot compare to the coolness that is Arthas.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Tough fight, anyway I believe Xykon would win this one. Your arguments are about ARTHAS not the LICH KING. Therefore I assume that there shall be no scrying on Arthas's part and that he is standard level 10 Death Knight.

Now then, I'll be speaking of this fight without minions, Xykon would probably fly and throw fireballs/meteors. Arthas can't hit Xykon from the air so he's screwed.

Second of all, Xykon is a powerful Lich, Arthas is a pawn of a TALKING ICECUBE! His sword, what is it? Frostmourne? I'll assume is some kind of +5 Sword with an icy burst. It's been awhile but I believe Liches are immune to cold. Thus Arthas is stuck with his +5 Blade of Standardness.

And finally; Xykon has his paralyzing touch, HEALS from negative energy, and he has meteor swarm, fireball, and other equally powerful spells. I
m not sure but I think Arthas has an emo-sword, a friggin huge shield, and some skeletal pony (as in, not a nightmare). And so, Xykopn wins:smallyuk:

[Crazy Owl]

Um...Arthas DID kill Illidan. Didn't you see their fight scene at the end of the Undead Campaign? It was all 3D and cool!

FYI the Lich King CONTROLS the Undead, so Xykon is pretty much at Arthas' mercy.

And that is why he is in WoW? Arthas didnt kill Illidan he was killed by Akarma, Maiev and 25 people who wanted his epix loot. :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

The rules are...


...violated by both parties before they are stated.

[Crazy Owl]

Your arguments are about ARTHAS not the LICH KING.

The OP did mention leader of the Scourge meaning we are talking about Lich King Arthas not Death Knight Arthas.

[T.Titan]

Arthas wins in both badassness and coolness.


Oh please, he's a weak emo Kerrigan wannabe... and instead of taking over his masters place he ended up just housing his soul. Sarah ate the new Overmind for dinner.



Um...Arthas DID kill Illidan. Didn't you see their fight scene at the end of the Undead Campaign? It was all 3D and cool!

Actually he didn't, he just wounded him really bad and made him go even crazier.


And in DnD Arthas would have Paladin levels, then he'd have gotten Blackguard ones... and after being possessed/merging with the Lich King he'd get some levels in a caster class (evil Cleric or Necromancer).

[Ramos]

I don't think Xykon can win. Here are some stats "Phaedros" of community.dicefreaks.com made. They represent The Lich King quite well:





The Lich King
Fighter-7, Healer-5, Shaman-10, Wizard-10, Necromancer-10, Death Knight-10
The Dark Lord of the Dead, The Frozen Lord of the Damned, The Lord of the Undead Scourge

Medium Outsider (Eternal, Evil)
Hit Dice: 7d10+5d8+10d8+10d4+10d4+10d10+520 (890 hp)
Initiative: +14 (+10 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 45 ft. (9 squares)
Armor Class: 64 (+10 Dex, +14 armor, +10 deflection, +5 divine, +5 natural, +10 profane), touch 50, flat-footed 64
Base Att/Grapple: +36/+48
Attack: Frostmourne +55 melee (1d10+26 plus 2d6 negative energy plus 2d6 unholy plus 1 Con/17-20); or spell +48 melee touch or +46 ranged touch.
Full Attack: Frostmourne +55/+55/+50/+45/+40 melee (1d10+26 plus 2d6 negative energy plus 2d6 unholy plus 1 Con/17-20); or spell +48 melee touch or +46 ranged touch.
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Aligned strike, animate minions, contagion 5/day, death coil 3/day, death touch 3/day, elemental mastery 5/day, frightful presence (DC 46), greater death coil 1/day, harm touch, mind blast, rebuke living 5/day, secrets of the ineffable, spell-like abilities, spells, unholy aura 3/day.
Special Qualities: +1 attack versus humans or orcs, crumbling vessel, dark blessing, death pact 4/day, DR 20/epic, eternal presence, eternal traits, evil touch, fast healing 5, keen senses, life stealing, resistance to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic 10, spell resistance 51, spontaneous casting (inflict wounds spells), telepathy 100 ft., true evil, uncanny dodge, voice from on high.
Saves: Fort +60, Ref +51, Will +67
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 30, Con 30, Int 32, Wis 34, Cha 30
Skills: Climb +25, Concentration +36, Craft (alchemy) +43, Diplomacy +29, Gather Information +17, Heal +21, Hide +19, Intimidate +23, Jump +25, Knowledge (arcana) +54, Knowledge (history) +26, Knowledge (military tactics) +26, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +18, Knowledge (the planes) +31, Knowledge (religion) +32, Knowledge (undead) +46, Listen +23, Move Silently +19, Ride +35, Search +21, Sense Motive +21, Spellcraft +54, Spot +23, Survival +17, Swim +23.
Feats: Bash, Battle Cry, Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Devoted Leadership, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Initiative, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Trample, Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Weapon Focus (battleaxe), Weapon Focus (greathammer), Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Weapon Specialization (greathammer).
Epic Feats: Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Will, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity (wizard 10th).
Secrets of the Ineffable: Arcane Mastery, Frightful Presence, Lord of the Dead, Omniscience, Subjugation.
Environment: Any land or underground
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 45
Treasure: Boots of the winterlands, cloak of resistance +5, Frostmourne, gauntlets of might, Helm of Domination, Plate of the Damned
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: --
Level Adjustment: --

- The armored figure moves with a dark grace and confidence. Fiery blue eyes glare out from the depths of a heavy black iron helm. Tufts of long white hair stream out from beneath the helm as well. The armored figure wears a black cloak trimmed with white fur and carries a massive runeblade etched with glowing sigils of unholy frost. His crooked grin implies untold power and endless hatred for the living.

Description
- Kil'jaeden, one of the lords of the Burning Legion, first created the Lich King to wreak havoc and terror across Azeroth. To this end, the orc Ner'zhul was transformed into a wraith-like being of unlimited psionic and necromantic power. Though his spirit was trapped inside the Frozen Throne of Icecrown, Ner'zhul sent out a plague of undeath that nearly scoured humanity from the world.
- Mighty as he was, Ner'zhul searched for a pawn that could free his spirit from the Frozen Throne and act as a host body for his unbridled power. By masterminding the downfall of shining Lordaeron, Ner'zhul suceeded in corrupting the kingdom's arrogant young prince, Arthas Menethil. Ultimately, Arthas was lured to the Frozen Throne and used the cursed runeblade Frostmourne to shatter it forever. Ner'zhul's vile spirit took possession of the evil prince's body. Now they exist as a singular all-powerful entity: the Lich King.

Combat
- The Lich King leads off with a mind blast and quickened sound burst, then another mind blast and a quickened telekinesis literally to throw his enemies into disarray. While they struggle with the effects of these attacks, the Lich King summons various forms of undead to send at them. Once the undead separate the group sufficiently, the Lich King unloads all manner of violent frost-based spells. Anyone left standing must contend with the Lich King himself as he wields Frostmourne into melee combat.
- Aligned Strike: The Lich King's natural weapons, as well as any weapon he wields, are treated as chaotic and evil weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
- Arcane Mastery: The Lich King can prepare any arcane spell that he can cast without using a spellbook. This gives him access to all spells on the wizard list and allows him to invent new spells without researching them.
- Animate Minions (Su): At will - animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead. Caster level 52nd. The Lich King casts these spells as quickened spells.
- Contagion (Sp): The Lich King has the ability to inflict disease upon a touched target, as per the spell contagion. This ability may be used 5/day. The Lich King casts contagion as a 10th-level sorcerer.
- Crumbling Vessel (Ex): Embracing the darkness, Arthas' life force is focused into strengthening his physical form. The Lich King's Constitution modifier is added as a profane bonus to his Armor Class.
- Dark Blessing (Su): The Lich King applies his Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws.
- Death Coil (Sp): As per the death coil spell, the Lich King may project a beam of necromantic energy that unerringly strikes its target. Living creatures struck by the death coil suffer 2d8+10 points of damage (although only half damage is taken if the target makes a successful Will save); similarly, undead creatures are healed of a like amount of damage when struck by the death coil. The Lich King may use this ability 3/day. He casts death coil as a 10th-level sorcerer.
- Death Touch (Sp): The Lich King's death touch is a death effect. The Lich King must suceed at a melee touch attack against a living creature. When the Lich King touches, roll 10d6. If the total is greater than or equal to the creature's current hit points, it dies. The Lich King may use this effect three times per day.
- Death Pact (Sp): This ability functions like the spell of the same name. The Lich King may use death pact 4/day. He casts death pact as a 10th-level sorcerer.
- Dominate Monster (Su): As a standard action, 5/day, the Lich King can utilize the powers of his helm to cast dominate monster as a 52nd-level sorcerer (Will save DC 46 negates).
- Elemental Mastery (Su): The spirits of the elements are the Lich King's to command. He rebukes and controls elements the same as a 15th-level PHB evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. Apply the relevant elemental Hit Dice to the undead HD chart (PHB, Chapter 8: Combat, "Turn or Rebuke Undead"). The Lich King may also bolster elementals he controls in the same way that a PHB evil cleric bolsters undead. The Lich King may attempt to control elementals 5/day.
- Eternal Presence (Ex): The Lich King's mere presence is awe-inspiring. This mind-affecting ability takes effect automatically whenever the Lich King’s presence is felt through sight, speech, an attack or any other means. Creatures within 5200 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer than 52 HD.
- Allies of the Lich King receive a +2 morale bonus on attacks, damage rolls, saving throws, ability checks and skill checks for 4d6 rounds.
- Neutral creatures must succeed on a Will save (DC 46) or stare at the Frozen Throne in fascination for 4d6 rounds. They can defend themselves normally, but take no other actions.
- Enemies of the Lich King must succeed on a Will save (DC 46) or be shaken for 4d6 rounds. A shaken creature becomes frightened if the Lich King threatens the victim in any way, such as by casting a spell. Enemies immune to fear are treated as neutral creatures for this effect.
- A potentially affected creature that succeeds at its Will saving throw remains immune to the Lich King's eternal presence for one day.
- Eternal Traits (Ex): The Lich King immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration. He does not treat a the roll of a natural “1” on a d20 as an automatic failure.
- Evil Touch (Ex): The Lich King may prepare spells from the evil domain as divine spells and casts evil spells at +1 caster level.
- Frightful Presence (Su): Whenever the Lich King attacks or makes an intimidating gesture, foes within a 50-foot-radius burst must make Will saves (DC 46). Foes within the burst, but not the Lich King's immediate target, become shaken for 3d6 rounds if they fail their saves. Creatures the Lich King attacks when he activates the ability become panicked for 3d6 rounds if they fail their saves. Foes who make successful saving throws are unaffected by this ability for one day.
- Greater Death Coil (Sp): As per the greater death coil spell, the Lich King may project a beam of necromantic energy that unerringly strikes its target. Living creatures struck by the death coil suffer 3d8+10 points of damage (although only half damage is taken if the target makes a successful Will save); similarly, undead creatures are healed of a like amount of damage when struck by the death coil. The Lich King may use this ability 1/day. He casts greater death coil as a 10th-level sorcerer.
- Harm Touch (Sp): Each day, the Lich King can inflict up to 100 points of negative energy damage by making a melee touch attack (+48 attack modifier). The Lich King doesn't have to use all the negative energy damage at once. He can use some and save some for a later attack. Undead are instead cured an equal amount.
- Life Stealing (Su): The Lich King may leech the life force of those he slays in combat. For each living creature he kills, the Lich King recovers hit points equal to one of the slain creature's Hit Dice (ie., if the Lich King slays an ogre, he recives 8 hit points). These hit points cannot raise the Lich King's total hit points above his normal maximum.
- Keen Senses (Ex and Su): The Lich King has darkvision out to 120 ft., low-light vision, and benefits from a continual true seeing spell.
- Lord of the Dead (Su): The Lich King continually detects undead as though under the effects of a detect undead spell, extending as far as he can see (even through divinations or remote sensing). At will, he can rebuke or command undead as a 52nd level cleric. This ability has a range of 520 ft., and can be used through remote sensing only if the undead creature has no Intelligence score. Due to his supreme mastery of undeath, the Lich King can control up to 50 times his Hit Dice in undead creatures - with the Helm of Domination, he can control up to 26,000 HD.
- Mind Blast (Su): At will, as a standard action, the Lich King can unleash a massive psionic attack in a cone 60 feet long. Anyone caught in this cone must succeed at a DC 46 will save or suffer 2d8 points of Charisma damage.
- Necromantic Mastery (Ex): All spells the Lich King casts from the Necromancy school have their spell point cost reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1 spell point. If the spell is also found on the Necromancer spell list, its cost is reduced by 2 points instead.
- Omniscience (Su): The Lich King's vast consciousness allows him to view up to five remote locations (on the same world or plane) at a time. He may communicate telepathically with anyone he views in this manner. He is made aware whenever his name or one of his titles are spoken.
- Quasi-Deity Traits: The Lich King has a divine rank of 0, granting him the following benefits: immunity to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters his form. The Lich King is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. He is immune to mind-affecting effects. He is immortal and cannot die from natural causes. The Lich King does not age, and does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for the Lich King to die is through special circumstances.
- Subjugation (Su): The Lich King continually detects living creatures and outsiders in the same fashion as he detects undead. At will, he may rebuke or command outsiders as a 52nd level cleric. He may also rebuke (though not command) non-evil living creatures as a 52nd level cleric, forcing them to cower in awe for 10 rounds. The Lich King must be within 520 ft. of the target to rebuke them (he cannot do it remotely).
- Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will - blizzard, cone of cold, detect thoughts, slay living, teleport, quickened sound burst; 3/day - circle of death, destruction, maximized frost nova, quickened telekinesis, quickened teleport; 1/day - wail of the banshee. Caster level 41st; save DC 30 + spell level.
- Spells: As a 20th-level healer with access to the shaman spell list and as a 20th level wizard with access to the necromancer spell list.
- Typical Arcane Spells Prepared (4/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/2; 402 spell points; save DC 21 + spell level, DC 22 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - daze, disrupt undead, light, prestidigatation; 1st - alarm, chill touch, endure elements, feather fall, hold portal, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement; 2nd - cripple, detect thoughts, frost armor, resist elements, see invisbility, spectral hand, unholy frenzy; 3rd - fireball, fly, frost nova, protection from elements, nondetection, slow, vampiric touch; 4th - cause fear (quickened), dimensional anchor, detect scrying, dimension door, ice storm, true strike (quickened); 5th - carrion swarm, cone of cold, dimension door (silent), dominate person, greater death coil (silent), hold monster; 6th - circle of death, disintegrate, freezing sphere, frost nova (quickened), geas/quest, legend lore; 7th - dimension door (quickened), finger of death, forcecage, greater scrying, greater dispel magic (silent, still), limited wish; 8th - horrid wilting, ice storm (quickened), mass charm, plane shift (silent, still), wall of ice (quickened); 9th - energy drain, power word kill, soul bind, time stop, wish; 10th - polar ray (maximized), teleport without error (quickened).
- Typical Divine Spells Prepared (6/8/8/8/8/7/6/6/6/5; 393 spell points; save DC 22 + spell level, DC 23 + spell level for necromancy spells): 0 - create water, detect magic, guidance, mending, read magic, resistance; 1st - bane, curse water, deathwatch, divine favour, doom, entropic shield, obscuring mist, stasis trap; 2nd - augury, death knell, frost armor, hold person, lesser death coil, shatter, silence, sound burst; 3rd - bestow curse, blindness/deafness, bloodlust, death coil, deeper darkness, dispel magic, entangling roots, serpent ward; 4th - dispel magic (silent, still), dismissal, divination, divine power, greater death coil, restoration, sending, tongues; 5th - frost nova (maximized), ice storm, lesser death coil (maximized), obscuring mist (silent, quickened), plane shift, righteous might, unhallow; 6th - banishment, chain lightning, cone of cold (silent), harm, stoneskin, word of recall; 7th - blasphemy, dispel magic (silent, quickened), dispel magic (still, quickened), earthquake, repulsion, word of chaos; 8th - antimagic field, dimensional lock, discern location, greater death coil (quickened), ice storm (maximized), unholy aura; 9th - energy drain, etherealness, gate, implosion, storm of vengeance.
- Epic Spells: 3/day, up to DC 64 (when taking 10); save DC 31.
- True Evil (Ex): The Lich King is immune to attempts to alter his alignment magically. Holy weapons and spells that specifically target those of evil alignment (such as holy smite), however, deal 1.5 times their normal damage to the Lich King.
- Undying (Ex): The Lich King is immune to all death spells and magical death effects. This immunity does not protect him from other sorts of attacks such as hit point loss, poison, petrification or other effects even if they might be lethal. He is also healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.
- Unholy Aura (Su): The Lich King may project an aura in 10-foot radius that will heal 3d8 points of damage to any undead controlled by the Lich King and/or those of evil alignment allied to the Lich King, divided among those in the area of the aura's effect as chosen by the Lich King. The Lich King can also heal himself. Those of good alignment take damage instead, unless succeeding at a Will save (DC 25); this damage is allocated from the same pool of dice used for healing undead or those of evil alignment.
- Voice From on High (Ex): When the Lich King speaks or makes a sound he can, as a free action, make his voice heard by all creatures with a radius of 5 miles.
- Weather Sense (Su): The Lich King gets a +10 circumstance bonus to his DC 15 Survival check to know what the weather will be like for the next 24 hours.

[Kaelaroth]

Well... that was certainly informative.

*hides behind sofa*

[Querzis]

The Lich king Lord of the dead ability dont allow him to control intelligent undead like Xykon...but it would allow him to turn every last one of Xykon undead to his side. It actually also explain why the Forsakens, the undead who broke free from the Lich King, are pretty much all intelligent undead while almost none of the mindless undead (ghouls, zombie and such) broke free from him.

Anyway, except if someone think Xykon is a 45 challenge rating, I think we have a clear winner.

[Elfanatic]

Under those circumstances, Arthas would beat up Xykon into a somewhat-blue sack of bones.

BUT, Xykon always cheats! (Bouncing ball with Symbol of Insanity anyone? :smallwink: )


@ Ramos

:smalleek:

* runs from huge Wall of Text *

[Pronounceable]

OK folks, here comes the statblock for the Lich King, straight from Warcraft RPG Manual of Monsters:



Lord of the Undead Scourge
Medium Undead (Independent)

HD:42d12 (504hp)
Init: +13
Speed: 60 ft
AC: 49 (+9 dex,+9 nat, +13 armor, +8 deflection), touch 27, flat footed 40

Base Att/Grapple: +13/+24

Attack: Frostmourne +41 melee (1d10+21/17-20 and wound), +35 melee touch, or +33 ranged touch

Full Attack: Frostmourne +41/+41/+36/+31 melee (1d10+21/17-20 and wound),or spell +35 melee touch, or +33 ranged touch

Space/Reach: 5 ft/5ft

Special Attacks: Elemental mastery, undead mastery, rebuke living, harm touch, aura of despair, mind blast, Frightful presence (DC 39), spell-like abilities, spells

Special Qualities: Darkvision 120 ft., +1 attack versus humans, spontaneous casting (inflict wounds spells), evil touch, immunity to cold, fire, and transmutation, resistance to acid 20 and electricity 20, DR 15/bludgeoning, fast healing 5,animateminions, detect undeadloutsiders, rebuke undead/outsiders, spell resistance 32, telepathy 100 ft., undead traits

Saves: Fort +38, Ref +40, Will +50

Abilities: Str 32, Dex 28, Con -, Int 30, Wis 32, Cha 27

Skills: Climb +19, Concentration +29, Craft (alchemy) +37, Diplomacy +22, Heal +15, Hide +13, Intimidate +18, Jump +19, Knowledge (arcana) +22, Knowledge (history) +20, Knowledge (military tactics) +20, Knowledge (the planes) +25, Knowledge (religion) +27, Knowledge (undead) +30, Listen +17, Move Silently +13, Ride +29, Search +14, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +48, Spot +17, Survival +11, Swim +17

Feats: Bash, Battle Cry, Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Devoted Leadership, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), lmproved Initiative, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Trample, Weapon Focus (bastard sword, battleaxe, warhammer), Weapon Specialization (warhammer)

Environment: Any land or underground

Organization: Unique

CR: 50

Treasure: Frostmourne, plate of the damned, helm of domination, gauntlets of might, cloak of resistance +5

Alignment: CE

Fluff...

Combat
The Lich King leads off with a mind blast and quickened sound burst, then another mind blast and a quickened telekinesis literally to throw his enemies into disarray. While they struggle with the effects of these attacks, the Lich King summons various forms of undead to send at them. Once the undead separate the group sufficiently, the Lich King unloads all manner of violent frost-based spells. Anyone left standing must contend with the Lich King himself as he wields Frostmourne into melee combat.

Elemental Mastery (Su): The Lich King rebukes and controls elementals the same as a 20th-level evil cleric rebukes or commands undead (see the PHB). He may also bolster elementals he controls in the same way that an evil cleric bolsters undead (see the PHB). The Lich King may attempt to control elementals 11 times per day.

Undead Mastery (Su): At will-animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead spells cast as a 42nd level cleric. In addition, he casts these spells as quickened spells rather than their normal casting times. He can still only cast one quickened spell per round.

Rebuke Living (Su): The Lich King may channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) creatures of non-evil alignment as a 20th-level cleric rebukes undead (see the PHB). The Lich King makes the equivalent of a turn check. Living creatures of the appropriate level are rebuked and must cower as if in awe (attack rolls against that creature are at a +2 bonus). The effect last 10 rounds.

Harm Touch (Sp): Each day, the Lich King can inflict up to 80 point of negative energy damage by making a melee touch attack (+35 attack modifier). The Lich King doesn't have to use all the negative energy damage at once. He can use some and save some for a later attack. Undead are
instead cured an equal amount.

Aura of Despair (Su): The Lich King radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to suffer a -2 morale penalty on all saving throws.

Mind Blast (Su): At will, as a standard action, the Lich King can unleash a massive psionic attack in a cone 60 feet long. Anyone caught in this cone must succeed at a DC 39 Will Save or suffer 2d8 points of Charisma damage.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will-cause fear, death knell, death ward, destruction, mana drain, slay living, sound burst (quickened), telekinesis (quickened), teleport without error (self and gear only), wail of the banshee. These abilities are psionic in origin, but are otherwise as the spells cast by a 42nd-level
sorcerer (save DC 18 + spell level). The Lich King can still only use one quickened spell per round.

Spells: As a 14th-level healer, with access to the shaman spell list, and as a 20th-level wizard.

Evil Touch (Ex): The Lich King casts all spells with the evil descriptor at + 1 caster level.

Animate Minions (Su): The Lich King's ability to control undead is far greater than a normal lich's due to his supreme mastery of undeath. He can control
2,100 HD worth of undead creatures. If he exceeds this amount, any excess undead become uncontrolled, but may not attack or impede him or his minions.

Detect Undead/Outsiders (Su): The Lich King continually detects undead as though under the effects of a detect undead spell. He detects outsiders in the same way.

Rebuke Undead/Outsiders (Su): The Lich King has the ability to command/rebuke undead and outsiders as a 30th-level cleric (see the PHB).


...

Although I hate this worthless, emo, Kerrigan wannabe too. But just look at these OFFICIAL DnD stats. There can be no contest.

[Green Bean]

I don't think Xykon can win. Here are some stats "Phaedros" of community.dicefreaks.com made. They represent The Lich King quite well:

Of course, that's the Lich King's stats. You see, I figure this should be resolved with two separate fights. Firstly, Lich King Arthas has already completed his storyline. He quested, leveled, reached the climax and the denouement. He's at the top of his game. Xykon, on the other hand, is likely only halfway through his story. He's still searching for the MacGuffins, hasn't had his final showdown with the goodguys, etc.

So, I propose two fights.

1) Xykon (as of now) vs. Arthas (end of Warcraft 3)

2) Xykon (whatever he is at the climax of OotS; merged with the Snarl? Deity of undeath? Only Rich knows for sure) vs. Arthas (end of Frozen Throne)

[Lord]

There are people other than me who play Warcraft RPG!!! COOL!!!.

Actually I theorise that Arthas and the Lich King are each sort of sharing control. Arthas on the one hand controls the individual fighting and overall personality. While Ner'zhul controls the overall Undead scourge and overall tactics. With the catch that Arthas is completely loyal to Ner'zhul.

My reasons for this are as follows.

1. When Tichondrius say's that Ner'zhul stole his soul. Instead of being all "OH BLEEP I'LL KILL THAT BLEEPING SUIT OF ARMOR." Instead he accepts this like it was nothing and proceeds to ask what the Lich King wants him to do.

2. Yet when he see's Muradins old men {in Frozen Throne} he say's "doesn't anybody stay dead." This outright means that he retains his memories, and implies that he retains {heavily modified by Ner'zhul mind you} at least part of his personality.

Now that I'm done derailing my own thread {sort of like Athas derailed his kingdom}.

That's a good Idea h_v. Lets assume That Arthas the Deathknight was 6 CR ratings higher than Kel'thuzad{he is after all the chosen of the Lich king after all.} Since according to my book of Monsters. Kelthuzad is a level 34 challenge Rating {Most powerful villian in the book because dispite the fact that it stated "these are the biggest baddest villians in the world. They failed to include Illidan, Arthas, Kael'thas, Miave, Lady Vashj, Shando Stormrage. Or any other non redshirt villians/hero's who play any major role with the exception of Kel'thuzad.} Lets say he's CR 40.

[Pronounceable]

I don't actually play Warcraft RPG. I sort of, "acquired" the books from a friend...

The aforementioned manual gives Kelthuzad a CR of 28 (seems the books are a bit differing). Arthas the Deathknight being 6 CR higher than him seems a bit too much but plausible, so we'd have Arthas at CR 34. Much less powerful than you propose.

Xykon's CR is probably at lower 20s, at most 25. If it was at higher 20s or lower 30s, he'd certainly have won at the throne room. Let's be generous and give Xykon CR 25.

Arthas is still way too powerful. Even if we assume Arthas less mighty, at CR 29 barely above Kelthuzad, he'd still very likely win.


Another approach: The book gives Illidan at Sorc 20/Rog 8/Ftr 7 plus extras=CR 37. Arthas beat him. Plausibly, Arthas can be 4 CR lower and win through luck. Still his CR would be at mid 30s while Xykon is at mid 20s.


There's no chance of Xykon defeating Arthas according to official 3.5 representation of Arthas. However, I'd root for Xykon any day.


Damn, I feel like a nerd and/or geek. Why should I have cared in the first place? Oh well, it does have a charm of its own.

[Green Bean]

Wait. Do you mean that the Warcraft RPG puts end-of-W3 Arthas at CR 40? :smallconfused: That seems more than a little overpowered to me. Or does the system use higher CRs than standard DnD?

[Pronounceable]

Warcraft RPG doesn't say squat about Arthas before Frozen Throne. It lists Lich King at CR 50 and the closest is Illidan at CR 37. See above, Arthas could be at least CR 33 to have a chance to defeat Illidan IMO.

[Kai Maera]

The Lich king Lord of the dead ability dont allow him to control intelligent undead like Xykon...but it would allow him to turn every last one of Xykon undead to his side. It actually also explain why the Forsakens, the undead who broke free from the Lich King, are pretty much all intelligent undead while almost none of the mindless undead (ghouls, zombie and such) broke free from him.

Anyway, except if someone think Xykon is a 45 challenge rating, I think we have a clear winner.

Considering there were very few intelligent undead at all in the Scourge campaign, I would have to guess that the Forsaken are intelligent because they broke free from the lich king, not the other way around.

But regardless, this is about battle not cheap moves - and I'd have to assume the Lich King, a legendary creature feared throughout the planes - would be more powerful than a lich known by very few people.

In fact, it seems more people know about Redcloak than Xykon, though this is probably only because of his "mantle". This is probably also due to there being very few people in the Order of the Stick world so far, but since Xykon isn't a demilich and there have yet to be any other lichs (in the online comic - I don't know about the books) it could be assumed that it's either a very new world or there are several very powerful beings out there.

[Green Bean]

Warcraft RPG doesn't say squat about Arthas before Frozen Throne. It lists Lich King at CR 50 and the closest is Illidan at CR 37. See above, Arthas could be at least CR 33 to have a chance to defeat Illidan IMO.

Still seems a little high to me. I mean, I've played the games, and I didn't really see anything any of the heroes did that was Epic level. Heck, Kel's most powerful ability is still weaker than most ninth level spells. I'm just not sure why they felt it necessary to put the characters at such high levels. Are PCs supposed to start out at higher levels than normal DnD?

[Lord]

No see I have the expanded version. Which basicly means that I get a slightly different rule set, and have to buy more if not all of the books in order to get all of the important character and monster statistics. In the book of monsters for that version they excluded abominations for a bunch of random monsters which I had never even heard about, and the Crypt fiend template was effectively useless because they decided that the two types of crypt fiends should be split into seperate supplements effectively forcing you into buying almost every book just to make the game playable. Which is why I use Drider statistics for Nurubians and add several abilities. Can you spell Cash Cow.

Oh and my CR for Arthas was just a guess.
[Edit] I was answering a few posts up.

[Kai Maera]

Still seems a little high to me. I mean, I've played the games, and I didn't really see anything any of the heroes did that was Epic level. Heck, Kel's most powerful ability is still weaker than most ninth level spells. I'm just not sure why they felt it necessary to put the characters at such high levels. Are PCs supposed to start out at higher levels than normal DnD?

Due to the way the Warcraft RPG works out, most character classes gain immense amounts of power each level compared to the standard D&D versions of their classes. Also, the word "epic" has a very different meaning in this case - a creature is essentially epic when it is powerful beyond wordly means.
As for what was seen in-game, that's due to looking at hero-hero combat. When compared to normal units, a low level hero will kill many, many footmen (or ghouls, or grunts.) In WoW, you find out that no one is really powerful - you are the footman that gets killed with 19 of your friends when you attack a level 3 hero.

So, assuming that these characters are to your character as your character is to rodents, the stats fit.

[Green Bean]

Due to the way the Warcraft RPG works out, most character classes gain immense amounts of power each level compared to the standard D&D versions of their classes. Also, the word "epic" has a very different meaning in this case - a creature is essentially epic when it is powerful beyond wordly means.
As for what was seen in-game, that's due to looking at hero-hero combat. When compared to normal units, a low level hero will kill many, many footmen (or ghouls, or grunts.) In WoW, you find out that no one is really powerful - you are the footman that gets killed with 19 of your friends when you attack a level 3 hero.

So, assuming that these characters are to your character as your character is to rodents, the stats fit.

So the system itself is different? If that's true, finding the winner isn't as easy as comparing CRs. After all, with Xykon's DR and negative energy touch attack, he can slaughter his way through a literally infinite number of low level troops.

[JasonDoomsblade]

I am a WarCraft nerd yet I never heard of WarCraft RPG. Please fill me in. I'd like to aquire one of those books.

[Lord]

You can usaully buy it whatever it is your looking for at Amazon. If not try looking for it at Barnes and Noble. Or Borders. One of those is where I got mine. I recomend getting the {slightly} older one. Its smaller then the other one and from what I've heard here it's books are far more stand alone and {from the limited in-store reading I got} they are a bit more like normal D&D {though both follow the same basic system}. The one I have requires many 50$books just to get by. Or you could just improvise.

[Querzis]

Still seems a little high to me. I mean, I've played the games, and I didn't really see anything any of the heroes did that was Epic level. Heck, Kel's most powerful ability is still weaker than most ninth level spells. I'm just not sure why they felt it necessary to put the characters at such high levels. Are PCs supposed to start out at higher levels than normal DnD?

I already talked about that, while in the game we control a somewhat strong hero and about 20 units, in the lore its army of thousand units that clashed together. They didnt do it in the game because it would be frankly impossible to control that much units and, since any of the heroes were strong enough to destroy more then a hundred enemies all by themselves, they had to make them more weak too otherwise units would be useless when they face heroes.

Thrall destroyed one of the greatest human stronghold (durnhold) when he was still very young all by himself. The Stormrage brothers each killed above a thousand demons back in the war of the ancient. Grom destroyed Stormwind strongest knight squad alone back in the seconds wars. Uther was so strong that he managed to drive back the entire Burning blade clan...and both Uther and Illidan were defeated by Arthas back when he was still a deathknight. Arthas is really that strong. And Arthas and Ner'zhul merged together are probably the strongest being in Azeroth right now, even more the Kil'jaeden and more then Archimonde was... The heroes are weaker in W3 and WoW simply because otherwise it would be impossible to defeat them without 200 strong units or another hero.

[Green Bean]

I already talked about that, while in the game we control a somewhat strong hero and about 20 units, in the lore its army of thousand units that clashed together. They didnt do it in the game because it would be frankly impossible to control that much units and, since any of the heroes were strong enough to destroy more then a hundred enemies all by themselves, they had to make them more weak too otherwise units would be useless when they face heroes.

Thrall destroyed one of the greatest human stronghold (durnhold) when he was still very young all by himself. The Stormrage brothers each killed above a thousand demons back in the war of the ancient. Grom destroyed Stormwind strongest knight squad alone back in the seconds wars. Uther was so strong that he managed to drive back the entire Burning blade clan...and both Uther and Illidan were defeated by Arthas back when he was still a deathknight. Arthas is really that strong. And Arthas and Ner'zhul merged together are probably the strongest being in Azeroth right now, even more the Kil'jaeden and more then Archimonde was... The heroes are weaker in W3 and WoW simply because otherwise it would be impossible to defeat them without 200 strong units or another hero.

Well, if the lore stats are used, then we can agree that this'll be a very short fight. I'm still having trouble believing that the guys from Warcraft should have an easy time handling the undead foetuses of stillborn gods, and personifications of nothingness on their own. (two creatures a fair bit below a CR 37 character's difficulty range)

[Haydenhawk]

Who the hell is Arthas? Is he from Erfworld?

[Icewalker]

Post lich king: Arthas.

Pre lich king: debatable. Depends on use of OP situational powers. ie, Xykon flying to be untouchable.

[Green Bean]

Who the hell is Arthas? Is he from Erfworld?

Ask, and ye shall recieve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthas).

[JasonDoomsblade]

Who the hell is Arthas? Is he from Erfworld?

I also take you havent heard of Warcraft. Or you havent aquired Warcraft 3. You should. Its for the PC.

[Bayar]

Arthas any day.I mean, with the upcoming epantion for WoW (wrath of the lich king)we will be able to raid his bottom (?!?).With level cap set to 80, he will be at least 81 , possibly 82.But he is without a doubt the MOST POWERFUL entity of all Azeroth.He can fight good with a sword and command undead with ease.And we havent seen him in any warcraft game fighting Lick King mode...yet. So who know what abilities he has aquired when he fused with the Lich king... .
Xylon is a powerful lich, but if he can be destroyed by a fighter with a broken sword(that is probabbly lvl 8-9) then he is no match for Arthas.

[Kai Maera]

Arthas any day.I mean, with the upcoming epantion for WoW (wrath of the lich king)we will be able to raid his bottom (?!?).With level cap set to 80, he will be at least 81 , possibly 82.But he is without a doubt the MOST POWERFUL entity of all Azeroth.He can fight good with a sword and command undead with ease.And we havent seen him in any warcraft game fighting Lick King mode...yet. So who know what abilities he has aquired when he fused with the Lich king... .
Xylon is a powerful lich, but if he can be destroyed by a fighter with a broken sword(that is probabbly lvl 8-9) then he is no match for Arthas.

Ok, first off that's not how bosses work. (Refer to the unnamable forum)
Second, in Xykon's defense, he was caught off guard and didn't fight back - it was the energies of the Gate that killed Xykon the first time. This second time, I am certain it will either be Roy or some stupid mistake on Xykon's part.

[Bayar]

But we all know that Xylon is no genius, right? I mean, he should not even have a brain, being a skeleton...

[Haydenhawk]

I do play world of warcraft but i'm only a level 9 druid so i dont know that much about the game

[Elfanatic]

Allow me to repeat my earlier statement in a more humorous fashion.

Arthas get stickified by Rich Burlew, and he meets Xykon on the battlefield
Arthas: Why are my limbs so thin? Did I become a skeleton or something?
Xykon: No, I prefer zombies.
Arthas: Don't tempt my wrath, demi-lich. My powers of the undead exceeds yours by a landslide.
Xykon: Yeah, but I don't play fair.
Arthas: And what did you have in mind then, you sad sack of bones?
Xykon: Aren't you a violation of a certain popular fantasy author's intellectual property?
The lawyers take Arthas away
Xykon: Whose your daddy now?!
Arthas: Oh noes!

Seriously man, Arthas will defeat Xykon in combat, strategy, magic duels and basic math. But Xykon has a certain cunning which Arthas severly lacks. If Xykon can choose the time and place of the fight, Arthas is done for. Otherwise, Arthas gets a new badass crown. :smallbiggrin:

[Tal9922]

Meh, Arthas sucks in every possible way, both in terms of abilities and character development:
Death Coil- Makes little difference in the long run, nice against spellcasters, but thats about it, can't do decent healing until you upgrade it, can't even heal himself.

Death Pact- You always have to sacrifice a pretty powerful creature for it to be worth anything, a creature you're likely better off keeping.

Unholy Aura- make little to no difference in combat, helps your troops heal a bit faster between fights, big whoop.

Raise Dead- The one good ability Death Knights had, creating an army of tanks you don't have to worry about sacrificing to enemy fire... and they made them invincible in a patch. So much for improvised tanks.

Character Development- As a paladin, he was the biggest wuss ever. As a revenge-driven zealot, he managed , in the process of trying to save his people, deliberately set his own boats on fire to force his army not to abandon him, to purposely cause the death of his best friend, to betray his mercenaries and, ultimately, willingly sacrifice his soul to the very thing he vowed to destroy, and killing his father. As a Death Knight, he also sucked, as whatever powers he gained, he was only given them to better serve as a pawn to the friggin' ruler of dead, which then made him give up his body for him.

Yup, if i were on Nihilum or something, i would've enjoyed killing him...

Now Illidan on the other hand, there's a character Blizzard would be wise to ressurect...

[Green Bean]

Now Illidan on the other hand, there's a character Blizzard would be wise to ressurect...

You know, they already did. He's a boss in WoW.

[Kai Maera]

Meh, Arthas sucks in every possible way, both in terms of abilities and character development:
Death Coil- Makes little difference in the long run, nice against spellcasters, but thats about it, can't do decent healing until you upgrade it, can't even heal himself.

Death Pact- You always have to sacrifice a pretty powerful creature for it to be worth anything, a creature you're likely better off keeping.

Unholy Aura- make little to no difference in combat, helps your troops heal a bit faster between fights, big whoop.

Raise Dead- The one good ability Death Knights had, creating an army of tanks you don't have to worry about sacrificing to enemy fire... and they made them invincible in a patch. So much for improvised tanks.

Character Development- As a paladin, he was the biggest wuss ever. As a revenge-driven zealot, he managed , in the process of trying to save his people, deliberately set his own boats on fire to force his army not to abandon him, to purposely cause the death of his best friend, to betray his mercenaries and, ultimately, willingly sacrifice his soul to the very thing he vowed to destroy, and killing his father. As a Death Knight, he also sucked, as whatever powers he gained, he was only given them to better serve as a pawn to the friggin' ruler of dead, which then made him give up his body for him.

Yup, if i were on Nihilum or something, i would've enjoyed killing him...

Now Illidan on the other hand, there's a character Blizzard would be wise to ressurect...

I'll ignore your assessment of Arthas but agree with your assessment of Illidan. "Let's go kill the only thing between us and the burning wrath of Sargeras himself!"

And the reason for Arthas' fall was to provide a strong body (present) to the Lich King's strong mind (not present in Death Knight Arthas). Whereas Arthas was an idiot (As you said, burn the boats to save the people) the Lich King was easily the greatest mastermind in most of the Warcraft universe (We can't say anything about the Titans or the Old Gods) and could easily outdo Xykon in those terms. Xykon does the typical lich thing, plus the typical tyrant thing while the Lich King brings the light of hope from the people and turns it into the deepest darkness, then manipulates his other enemies to fight each other (Forasken and Scarlet Crusade) and lies low so the people, naturally, go kill other enemies thinking he's dormant.

[JasonDoomsblade]

Everyone has been assessing the fight if Arthas was in the D&D world. So how bout if Xykon was in the WarCraft World? How would the fight go then?

[Querzis]

You know, they already did. He's a boss in WoW.

Not really, we never saw him die in the frozen throne he was just there lying on the ground and still moving, dunno why so many people though he was dead.

I assume hes more talking about WoW itself. Come on, Illidan survived the first great wars, Maeiv, Kil'jaeden, Arthas, a ten thousand years imprisonnement and then he get killed by forty random people...meh. Right now Blizzard are wondering if they should integrate some part of WoW in the lore or if they will just do as if everything that ever happened in WoW didnt happen in the lore (in other word, that every players who ever accepted a quest didnt complete it or got killed). I sure hope WoW wont be considered a part of the actual lore, there is just so much things from the lore Blizzard busted up in that game just for gameplay reasons.

[....]

Just an off-topic thing...

I always found Illidan to be a whole lot whinyer than Arthas.

"Whaaa, I'm Illidan buy everyone loves my brother. Whaaaa I'll serve the Demons because this chick wants a guy with antlers. Whaaaaa I'm blind and still fight so people think I rock. Whaaaa I'm imprisoned for betraying my people. Whaaaa I'm let out but only will help for alittle while and then run away from my master. Whaaaaaa my boss found me, I have to go fight some human dude. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa the human dude owned me but I don't know how because he dosn't look like a reject from some fansite anime story. Whaaaaaa."

Yeah. So, anyway, continue.

(And Arthas would win)

[JasonDoomsblade]

Wow nobody even replied to my previous post. I feel so rejected....

Oh holy crap I made Dwarf in the Playground! Woot!

[Setra]

Illidan runs in during the fight and kills them both while they're weakened.

Then Kerrigan kills Illidan.

Then Frieza blows up the planet.

Then Goku kills Frieza, except not good enough so Trunks does it better.

[Green Bean]

Everyone has been assessing the fight if Arthas was in the D&D world. So how bout if Xykon was in the WarCraft World? How would the fight go then?

Depends. If it's the W3 versions, then Xykon wins because Arthas won't be able to attack flying units. If it's WoW, where Arthas is apparently a match for fifty level 80 guys, I'd call it for Arthas.

[Kai Maera]

Depends. If it's the W3 versions, then Xykon wins because Arthas won't be able to attack flying units. If it's WoW, where Arthas is apparently a match for fifty level 80 guys, I'd call it for Arthas.

Actually, considering that nothing in the air can attack anything on land in the WoW world (with the exception of gryphons, windriders, wyverns, and bats) Xykon would have to fight Arthas face to face. And he would lose because liches are weaker than death knights due to their support role.

And let's face it, post-Frozen Throne Arthas must be able to kill just about everything. It's really an unfair question to ask, especially considering Xykon is still a newbie to lichdom compared to most - he hasn't even spent long enough as a lich to advance his connection to the Plane of Negative Energy.

Give Xykon a a millenium, make his hand and eye an artifact, and ascend him to godhood. Then he might have a chance, if Lich King Arthas is truly more powerful than the Lich King was alone (50 level of WoW RPG is roughly the same as 70 levels of standard D&D since you gain bonus stat enhancements almost every other level.)

[Querzis]

Depends. If it's the W3 versions, then Xykon wins because Arthas won't be able to attack flying units. If it's WoW, where Arthas is apparently a match for fifty level 80 guys, I'd call it for Arthas.

Well if we are talking about a W3 Xykon then he would just have 4 spells max and even if one of these spell is fly, it woudnt last long...it never does. Arthas still win simply because an int hero need some tank in front him or just about any other hero can kill him.

[Green Bean]

Well if we are talking about a W3 Xykon then he would just have 4 spells max and even if one of these spell is fly, it woudnt last long...it never does. Arthas still win simply because an int hero need some tank in front him or just about any other hero can kill him.

It doesn't have to last long; just long enough to launch a few attacks, then fly down a cliff or something while you wait for the spell to refresh. It would be hit 'n run, but Xykon could wear him down.

[Tal9922]

Just an off-topic thing...

I always found Illidan to be a whole lot whinyer than Arthas.

Yeah, except that... not.



"Whaaa, I'm Illidan buy everyone loves my brother.
Meh, he didn't whine about it so much, maybe it annoyed him a bit, but who wouldn't be annoyed by being constantly outshone by your own twin brother?


Whaaaa I'll serve the Demons because this chick wants a guy with antlers.
If you would've bothered actually picking up the entire War of the Ancients trilogy and actually finishing it, you would've found out it was all part of Illidan's plan to betray the Legion from inside-out and find more about a possible way of victory. A way that, may i add, he indeed found, and a way that, if i may add, did indeed work, and the Night Elves would likely lose without it.



Whaaaaa I'm blind and still fight so people think I rock.
The fact that he can fight as good as any warrior without even seeing is commendable, yes, and i don't recall him whining on that matter


Whaaaa I'm imprisoned for betraying my people.

He did his time peacefully, until released, never whining about the subject. Heartily beating up his warden after he got out, yes, but not 'whining' per se


Whaaaa I'm let out but only will help for alittle while and then run away from my master.
If i recall correctly, he had no intention of ditching the Night Elves, but Malfurion, ever-forgiving, started to berate him on how he shouldn't've done this and that, when obviously it was the right choice as it made Illidan's incredibly more powerful and, so far, resistant to corruption. Heck, if Malfurion would've let Illidan stay for the final battle, it would've been ridiculously easy.


Whaaaaaa my boss found me, I have to go fight some human dude.

A job that he took to the very end if you ask me, and anyone who completed TFT knows how good his attempts were


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa the human dude owned me but I don't know how because he dosn't look like a reject from some fansite anime story. Whaaaaaa."
Arthas only owned him because he was getting outside help. Namely, the Lich King


Yeah. So, anyway, continue.

(And Arthas would win)

Don't mind if i do. Man, its posts like these that make me wanna join the Xykon fan-club

[Agalyon]

Arthas = Former paladin with magic runeblade that would do about +11 in the d&d world, has heaps of experience in leadership/strategy being commander in 3 campaigns.

Lich King = The most evil orc (tied with Guldan) that has attained god like status with ability to raise his own dead from the dead. Feared by Kil'Jadan leader of this crazy big army of demons

Xykon = Idiot with no real idea of his plans, he can kill quite adequately but without any idea of strategy or plan is just a killing machine that needs a manual pump. Feared by a rag-tag bunch of adventurers.

Lich King + Arthas = Lich Arthas King Lord of death and doom

Notherend is entirely populated by undead, Xykon just seemingly has them in stock along with some goblins.

Lich King Arthas + Xykon + Combat situation = Dead Xykon

now on the event that redcloak, a fantastic miltary leader who has control over the goblins and support of his troops and god, was present. we could have a good match on our hands but unfortunately the lich king will kick his *** in this situation

[Setra]

On another note...

Couldn't WC3 Arthas just use an Orb if he wants to hit Xykon, while flying?

[Green Bean]

Arthas = Former paladin with magic runeblade that would do about +11 in the d&d world,

Well, to be fair, the runeblade seems to run on negative energy. I don't think Xykon would mind.

[Bayar]

On another note...

Couldn't WC3 Arthas just use an Orb if he wants to hit Xykon, while flying?

I was thinking the same thing...plus, it is much easyer just to defeat redcloak and destroy his amulet...that way Xylon would be vanquished...

[Tal9922]

Lich King = The most evil orc (tied with Guldan) that has attained god like status with ability to raise his own dead from the dead. Feared by Kil'Jadan leader of this crazy big army of demons


Tbh, Ner'zhul wasn't all that evil at all as an orc. He was tricked into working with demons, which, upon realizing so, did all in his power to redeem his people, and, failing at that, attempted to flee. It was years of unbelievable torment of his soul and body being slowly ripped to shreds, that drove him insane.
Gul'dan is nastier at heart.

[Theodoriph]

Xykon can cast wish and using the following stipulation for wish:

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.

he can proceed to instantaneously create an inifinitely long, inifinitely wide and infinitely deep quarterstaff (quarterstaffs cost nothing in d&d).


Due to the need for the quarterstaff to be infinite, all objects, people etc. would cease to exist to allow room for it or would be smushed to the point where they take up no space (I'm pretty sure one of those would qualify as one of the "special circumstances" under which Arthas Lich King can die). It's a draw!

Arthas Lich King, CR 50. Killed by a quarterstaff. Such a noble death.


Actually...depending on the DM, Xykon could just wish for Arthas to cease to exist, and the DM could allow it. =P But that lacks finesse. It lacks style. And Xyke is all about style.

[Arqane]

Well...

If Rich wrote the battle out, Xykon would win in good literary fashion.

If Blizzard wrote the story, Arthas would die in true literary fashion.

So, my vote's for Xykon. The story around Arthas is cool, but Xykon is a much more entertaining character.

[Querzis]

Well, to be fair, the runeblade seems to run on negative energy. I don't think Xykon would mind.

Arthas already killed lots of undead with Frostmourne, he had it when he was still alive...and actually he never trully died, he just doesnt have a soul anymore just like Ner'zhul never trully died but was tortured by Kil'jaeden and had his body disrupted...Anyway, Ner'zhul is not the kind of dumbass who would create a weapons that is totally useless against creatures of negatives energy.

Arthas is, at this point, more a God then anything else. Hell, I bet the three Old Gods woudnt have a 50 challenge rating like him (and a 50 challenge rating in Warcraft RPG pretty much means a 70 challenge rating in normal D&D). As long as Xykon dont absord the power of the Snarl he dont stand a chance (and since Shojo said the Snarl would be more vulnerable to a mortal of the same levels of a god, I'm pretty sure Arthas could even fight the Snarl quite well.)

[Kai Maera]

Arthas already killed lots of undead with Frostmourne, he had it when he was still alive...and actually he never trully died, he just doesnt have a soul anymore just like Ner'zhul never trully died but was tortured by Kil'jaeden and had his body disrupted...Anyway, Ner'zhul is not the kind of dumbass who would create a weapons that is totally useless against creatures of negatives energy.

Arthas is, at this point, more a God then anything else. Hell, I bet the three Old Gods woudnt have a 50 challenge rating like him (and a 50 challenge rating in Warcraft RPG pretty much means a 70 challenge rating in normal D&D). As long as Xykon dont absord the power of the Snarl he dont stand a chance (and since Shojo said the Snarl would be more vulnerable to a mortal of the same levels of a god, I'm pretty sure Arthas could even fight the Snarl quite well.)

Here I go being stingey again. The Old Gods are, individually, stronger than multiple Titans combined - the Titans, in turn, each more powerful individually than worlds of powerful monsters, such as the Dreadlords, which are in turn about equal to a hero or about 5 average people, depending on their rank.

Arthas was a hero before ( 40 people, had he appeared in-game) and melded with the Lich King (Assumed to be about the same strength as Kil'Jaeden, who also would be a 40 man) and it's rather impossible to think that he'd go up some 3 tiers of power.

But he'd still kick an average lich's boney butt.

[Ramos]

Didn't the dragon of time overcome the three Old Gods?

But generally speaking, yeah, the Lich King wouldn't stand a chance against a single titan.

[Kai Maera]

Didn't the dragon of time overcome the three Old Gods?

But generally speaking, yeah, the Lich King wouldn't stand a chance against a single titan.

Nozordormu (sp?) had to use every existance of himself at every moment in time to even keep time stable against the Old Gods. An infinite amount of dragon aspects (each as powerful as Kiljaeden or more) to less than tie with them - space-time still had holes in it and the released energy spawned some undead, as well as throwing many people into the past.

Warcraft nerdiness!

[Querzis]

Here I go being stingey again. The Old Gods are, individually, stronger than multiple Titans combined - the Titans, in turn, each more powerful individually than worlds of powerful monsters, such as the Dreadlords, which are in turn about equal to a hero or about 5 average people, depending on their rank.

The titans are much more powerfull then that! Sargeras (though I admit hes supposed to be one of the strongest titans) ia basically stronger then his entire Burning Legion! And since the titans quickly dispatched the old gods and their lieutenant and permenantly destroyed two of the five old gods, I really dont see were you got the «stronger then multiple titans» part. Especially since we dont know how many titans fought the old gods, just that they were one of the many groups who travelled the universe and that C'thun, the most powerfull old gods, was easely defeated in a duel against a single titans. Beside, the Forgotten one back in Frozen throne is supposed to be one of the Old gods like C'thun and Arthas defeated him, with Anub'barak help, before he even became the Lich King and while he was weakened because of Illidan attack on the Frozen throne. Come on, the Olds Gods arent that strong, they are barely gods. Hell we were already able to kill some of the old gods new forms (as well as some of their strongest lieutenant like ragnarok) back when we were level 60 in WoW and none of them are even as strong as Kel'thuzad! Read a bit about the old gods before saying this.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Old_Gods#More_than_five_Old_Gods

The titans are the ones who created entire world everywhere, they are much closer to gods then those guys.

[Agalyon]

Arthas was a hero before ( 40 people, had he appeared in-game) and melded with the Lich King (Assumed to be about the same strength as Kil'Jaeden, who also would be a 40 man) and it's rather impossible to think that he'd go up some 3 tiers of power.

Depends what level caps you are talking about ( I think you are talking about World of Warcraft ) To defeat a boss that was in the previous games, such as Thrall or Sylvanis (typo?), take about 60-80 people to beat last time I did it which would be about a month ago. That is for a group of full 70's, then you have Kil'Jaeden who is posing a problem to the titans with his legion.
Lore wise I have the strangest feeling that Kil'Jaeden would have about a 40-man 80-100 raid.

Arthas would be a match for Kil'Jaeden and could even kill him given the chance. Then we also have to account for minion damage, millions of super strong demons vs heaps of strong undead that can be raised from your fallen, so that would mean Arthas might have some people to help him out in the fight.

[GolemsVoice]

Even if Xykon would fly, remember, Arthas could still buy some orb and kick his butt from down below.

But it is an interesting question indeed what powers Xykon would have in Warcraft. I think something along the line of a direct damage spell, Finger of Death or something, which comes with more damage each level. Second, an aura which would add damage to his allies and lowers the damage of his enemies. Maybe some Conjure Undead thing as his third ability. The Ultimate would allow him to summon his drgaon and become a flying unit with a powerful attack for a while.

[Kaerbek]

Make it Xykon the Lich v.s Kel'Thusad the Lich.

I would like to see that battle, since Kel'Thusad has natural ranged attack, can protect himself from Xikon's minions with an armor of frost and ice and can feed his own power by sacrificing his minions making his Frost Nova practicaly a never-ending nuke that would eventually destroy Xykon if he run-out of spells. (plus, his most powerful spell: "Death and Decay" is just like casting "Horrid Wilting" only that it takes longer to do damage, but while in effect it can rot practically every minion of Xykon's) A battle between the ultimate death arcane and the ultimate death mystic. And lets not forget that Kel'Thusad was rised by Arthas himself, becoming even more powerful than before.

[JasonDoomsblade]

This coming a tad late but [\spoiler]on World Editor you can make Characters have 7 spells[\spoiler]

[GoC]

Does this Arthas have any ranged attacks that can harm D&D liches?
If not then Xykon wins. (Overland Flight+Meteor Swarm)

...And a Demilich would pwn the world!:smallbiggrin:

[Green Bean]

Make it Xykon the Lich v.s Kel'Thusad the Lich.

I would like to see that battle, since Kel'Thusad has natural ranged attack, can protect himself from Xikon's minions with an armor of frost and ice and can feed his own power by sacrificing his minions making his Frost Nova practicaly a never-ending nuke that would eventually destroy Xykon if he run-out of spells.

Yeah! And after the Kel-ster weakens Xykon with his cold magic, he'll finish him off with a combination of polymorphs and mind-affecting spells! :smallamused: