Continue of debate from the Werewolf Lord thread

[ShurikVch]

I see no problems if you are stealing power from the gods to steal inspiration from them.Note: while Ur-Priest is able to steal some of godly gifts, nowhere is said he's able to steal them all
Simple example: is there any domains for Ur-Priest? :smallwink:
Thus, because we're don't have any RAW about the stealing of divine inspiration, it's prudent to presume it wouldn't work


It is specified that crusaders can work for a cause rather than a god(if you read more crusader fluff) so you could get your crusader powers from a cause rather than a god if you want to.
So your crusader dedicated to a cause(such as bringing back its dead god) could also be a follower of a dead god that learned to siphon powers from the other gods(ur priest variant fluff) and then as a person devoted to a god(whenever it is alive or not does not matters) he can get levels in rkv too.
I see no problems in that.Sorry, but while you're, indeed, able to gain your divine magic from nothing at all (ideal) just fine, you're still unable to get it if your patron deity is dead


You do not need someone to like you or support you for working for that person or for being devoted to that person.
you could even have the person to which you are devoted trying to kill you and it gives no problems you could still be devoted to that person.
rkv only needs to be devoted and never to have support from the god to which he is devoted.
And even if you are stealing power from the gods nothing says you have no control over the god from which you steal power so you could steal power only to the gods opposing your god and then your god might even appreciate that if that god is not very lawful.But by their own fluff, ur-priests are universally reviled by all which is divine (presumably, including even such monsters as Kyuss or Tharizdun)
Just think about it: Prometheus stole from the gods just once, and what's they did with him? And Ur-Priest doing it daily...


An order is not a temple and you can have a secret order with a single person(Which is normal for example if you are a rkv of a dead god since those kind of people might want to keep a low profile as long as their god is dead and it is near impossible to recruit for a dead god) if you like being alone and no associations with other divine spellcasters is needed for rkv or crusader you can associate with only yourself if you want to.An order (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/order):
order noun (SYSTEM)
​

C2 [ C ] a social or political system:
The collapse of Communism at the end of the 1980s encouraged hopes of a new world order.

Thesaurus: synonyms and related words

order noun (RELIGION)
​

[ C, + sing/pl verb ] a group of people who join together for religious or similar reasons and live according to particular rules:
religious/holy orders
monks of the Cistercian/Franciscan Order

Thesaurus: synonyms and related words

order noun (HONOUR)
​

[ S, + sing/pl verb ] a group that people are made members of as a reward for services they have done for their country:
He was made a knight of the Order of the Garter.A single person is neither a group, nor a system

Also:
it is near impossible to recruit for a dead godI heard - lots of dead faerûnian deities are have rather active cults way after their death (notably, Deathstalkers of Bhaal; and cult of Amaunator going for ages past their patron's demise)



I'm not seeing your point here? Are you trying to say a RKV is forced to congregate, use temples, etc?As I pointed just above, one person isn't fit to definition of an order, there are no Ur-Priest-specific orders, and attempts to integrate into existing societies may be rather perilous


I dislike the fact that Crusaders can't be neutral. There's no reason why a person of neutral alignment can't have the inspiration, drive, and conviction in a cause that would prevent them from being a Crusader. Right off the top of my head the idea of someone pushing for law or balance between good and evil are justification enough.Crusader == "zealous"
True Neutral == "indifferent"
It isn't a coincidence - Boccob, rare case of True Neutral deity (and one of the strongest among them), have "The Uncaring" title


I'd have to reread Jade Phoenix mage since I'm AFB (storage) but I'm pretty sure I disagreed with the reasoning way back.There is also possible "evil variant" (Ebon Phoenix)


Shadow Sun Ninja reads like it should be neutral. The entire concept of the class is based on balancing between good and evil and positive and negative. Why would it be limited to any good?IMHO?
Because in-game True Neutral is weird, and shouldn't be applied to truly sapient creatures (except for some "special cases" like extraplanar Outsiders, or, maybe, Fey or sentient Constructs)


And, going by the reasoning of certain other booksBoED? :smallyuk:

wouldn't a lot of the SSN features push said character further and further away from any good alignment?While DM may improvise mechanics which will push to and fro Good alignment, there is however, no such mechanics by the RAW
How you're seeing it?
"Oh, I cast Animate Dead today. That's 3 levels of [Evil], so I'll have to Summon a Celestial Bee (and order it to sting a puppy, killing both the angel-bee and the puppy) and cast Protection from Evil, to cancel out those 3 levels of [Evil] with 3 levels of [Good]. And then I'll say three 'Hail Pelors' and go on a pilgrimage to the brothel to attempt to 'convert the wicked.' Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm gaming the system..."Like this? :smallamused:


Inevitably disqualifying them from the class? Not even getting into the capstone.By the RAW, there is no such thing as Ex-SSN
Thus, nobody can be disqualified from it.

[noob]

Simple example: is there any domains for Ur-Priest?
Yes if you take a prc granting you a domain or if you are an ex cleric since at no moment ur priests gives up their domains: they only give up their previous divine spellcastings.


Sorry, but while you're, indeed, able to gain your divine magic from nothing at all (ideal) just fine, you're still unable to get it if your patron deity is dead

I was saying the fluff of a crusader allowed a crusader to be devoted to a cause instead of being devoted to a god(mentioned in the start of the crusader fluff) and still get their powers and you are not even sightly addressing the fact a crusader have no need for gods.
If you read page eight in the tome of battle they say a crusader can be devoted to a cause or deity in the alignment paragraph.
(which honestly makes sense if you see crusaders as martial clerics since clerics can be devoted to causes instead of being devoted to deities so a cleric of the cause of spreading atheism could be a thing)


But by their own fluff, ur-priests are universally reviled by all which is divine (presumably, including even such monsters as Kyuss or Tharizdun)
Just think about it: Prometheus stole from the gods just once, and what's they did with him? And Ur-Priest doing it daily...

So it means becoming a god instantly makes you hate ur priests even if you were an ur priest?
Does it means an ur priest becoming a god then hates itself twice due to hating the divine and due to being hated by the divine?
Can you show where it is written explicitly?

Also if one single person does not counts for an order you just have to solve the problem with body outside of body like normal people.

[cartejos]

Firstly I would like to thank you for starting a seperate thread. While I do see the value of having a debate, I just rathered it not be in the character advice post.



By the RAW, there is no such thing as Ex-SSN
Thus, nobody can be disqualified from it.

Second, small contention with this. Are there Ex Ur-Priests? If not, and you were converted from god hating into a devotee of wee jas, what would stop him from becoming a Vindicator? The divine casting ability could still add to your powers being able to steal from the gods. Your worship of Wee Jas need not be reciprocal to gain divine casting if you are still stealing the powers. Unsure about the advancement of manuevers due to divine inspiration. Perhaps Wee Jas still refuses to inspire you, perhaps wee jas becomes outraged and sets in motion plans to eliminate you. You may mot advance in your manuevers but I still dont see why you couldnt add to your casting ability, or gain the seperatw abilities of the vindicator

[ShurikVch]

Yes if you take a prc granting you a domain or if you are an ex cleric since at no moment ur priests gives up their domains: they only give up their previous divine spellcastings.Those aren't domains of Ur-Priest - those are domains of whatever PrC you're used (likely, Seeker of the Misty Isle :smallsmile:)
And Cleric would lose all domains at the excommunication: domains are a direct extension of deity's power, and stop of divine patronage mean loss of domain access


I was saying the fluff of a crusader allowed a crusader to be devoted to a cause instead of being devoted to a god(mentioned in the start of the crusader fluff) and still get their powers and you are not even sightly addressing the fact a crusader have no need for gods.
If you read page eight in the tome of battle they say a crusader can be devoted to a cause or deity in the alignment paragraph.
(which honestly makes sense if you see crusaders as martial clerics since clerics can be devoted to causes instead of being devoted to deities so a cleric of the cause of spreading atheism could be a thing)While it's completely possible to be devoted to a cause, you're talked about the following a dead deity (especially there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23301337&postcount=13))
While there are no problems with devoted to a cause, once your patron deity is dead - you're out of luck


So it means becoming a god instantly makes you hate ur priests even if you were an ur priest?AFAIK, there are no known cases of ur-priests ascending to godhood
Even those people who were explicitly noticed at poaching divinity - Karsus, Vecna, Mellifleur (http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=921), Gargauth (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gargauth), Set (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040709a) - are (apparently) lacking any levels in that PrC
I'm suspecting either being Ur-Priest is impossible (or useless) for a deity, or all ur-priests are hunted down with extreme prejudice (because, come on - we're know just two of them, and one of those is example character!)


Also if one single person does not counts for an order you just have to solve the problem with body outside of body like normal people.IMHO, BoB is still just one person



Second, small contention with this. Are there Ex Ur-Priests?WotC laziness is legendary - their classes with various requirements are (probably) wat over hundred, but their number of "Ex-..." cases may be (probably) almost counted on your fingers
Why you would even leave this PrC? It gives you 9th-level spells two levels earlier!

I, personally, suspecting: attempt to advance ur-priest casting via any deity-related PrC would look akin to attempt of legalizing criminal money though some government-affiliated institution by admitting it's, indeed, criminal money, and saying "I would pay taxes from it!"

[cartejos]

WotC laziness is legendary - their classes with various requirements are (probably) wat over hundred, but their number of "Ex-..." cases may be (probably) almost counted on your fingers


Then couldnt the same reasoning be applied as to why there isnt such thing as a ex-SSN, rendering the point I had originally replied to moot?

[noob]

While it's completely possible to be devoted to a cause, you're talked about the following a dead deity (especially there)
While there are no problems with devoted to a cause, once your patron deity is dead - you're out of luck
I see no problems to being devoted to the cause of bringing back your dead deity and it was what I mentioned and you did not invalidate the ability to get powers from the cause "get my dead deity back to life"


And Cleric would lose all domains at the excommunication: domains are a direct extension of deity's power, and stop of divine patronage mean loss of domain access
Simply false since you could be a cleric directly devoted to those domains and just stop being a normal cleric only due to giving up your cleric spellcasting(and keep the turning and the domains).

It seems you just do not accept people to be devoted to multiple things and to follow multiple things while the core domain cleric(clerics that picks 2 domains instead of picking one god) is by default devoted to two different things at once.

[darkdragoon]

Maneuvers are not divine magic; Crusaders do have to pray to ready them but there is no further specification.

Anyway, RKV does not actually ask for divine spells, but turning or rebuking.


Similarly depending on if what parts of the Class Features section you prefer, they are actually Devoted Enforcers, or perhaps Knight-Vindicators, with the Ruby Knights being the specific order of Wee Jas. It would be nice if perhaps they had alternate examples for Divine Fury and Divine Impetus, but that's kind of par for the course as far as editing goes. We'll ignore the possible "it doesn't even work, because you can't learn Stancess" argument.

[Cosi]

Can someone explain what exactly the claim under contention is, mechanically speaking? Because I'm confused as to what exactly is being debated here.

[Lapak]

Can someone explain what exactly the claim under contention is, mechanically speaking? Because I'm confused as to what exactly is being debated here.Whether Ur-Priest is a class that is compatible with the Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class in particular and/or Crusaders in general, as I understand it.

[DarkSoul]

Sadly this is the wrong forum to debate fluff-based mechanics in, considering how often it's ignored in favor of the mechanical requirements.

That being said, why would the god-hating magic thief even consider becoming a lapdog of Wee Jas, running around taking orders from her or some other yes-man she seems important? No, thanks; they've got better things to do.

Would I allow an Ur-Priest RKV? Absolutely not.

[noob]

Sadly this is the wrong forum to debate fluff-based mechanics in, considering how often it's ignored in favor of the mechanical requirements.

That being said, why would the god-hating magic thief even consider becoming a lapdog of Wee Jas, running around taking orders from her or some other yes-man she seems important? No, thanks; they've got better things to do.

Would I allow an Ur-Priest RKV? Absolutely not.

you did not read the fluff of the ur priest: a priest of a god who dies can become an ur priest for trying to bring back its dead god(it is one of the potential motivations for being an ur priest).
and rkv is said to not be only for wee jas and that adaptations could be made for other gods and nothing says a rkv needs to get power from its god so a rkv variant with a dead god could be possible.

[Cosi]

Whether Ur-Priest is a class that is compatible with the Ruby Knight Vindicator prestige class in particular and/or Crusaders in general, as I understand it.

I mean, it obviously is, right? The requirements to be an Ur-Priest are Evil alignment (totally compatible with worshiping Wee Jas), some feats, some skills, some saves, and "no ability to cast divine spells". It doesn't even preclude worshipping a god! Since a Crusader has no divine spellcasting capability, he is totally free to become an Ur Priest even if he is a devout servant of Wee Jas.

Is it a little stupid to combine the anti-god prestige class with a prestige class that requires you to worship a god? Sure, but it's stupider that the only way to combine Tome of Battle and Divine Magic requires you to be a servant of a particular god to begin with. From a design perspective, RVK should never have required you to worship Wee Jas.

[DarkSoul]

you did not read the fluff of the ur priest: a priest of a god who dies can become an ur priest for trying to bring back its dead god(it is one of the potential motivations for being an ur priest).
and rkv is said to not be only for wee jas and that adaptations could be made for other gods and nothing says a rkv needs to get power from its god so a rkv variant with a dead god could be possible.I'm well aware of the fluff for Ur-priests. The only reason to be an Ur-Priest following a dead god is the accelerated casting; one could just take Servant of the Fallen and remain a cleric with all the attendant benefits of that class. Then there's no RKV conflict at all.

[noob]

I'm well aware of the fluff for Ur-priests. The only reason to be an Ur-Priest following a dead god is the accelerated casting; one could just take Servant of the Fallen and remain a cleric with all the attendant benefits of that class. Then there's no RKV conflict at all.
I see no variant rkv(rkv with a dead god) conflicts with ur priest either so why do you want a slower casting progression?
Also servant of the fallen is even more setting specific than ur priest and if you are in faerun then draining power from the gods is so good you should become chaotic good each time you do so.(because of how all the gods of faerun are intensely infinitely evil no matter which alignment is indicated for them)

[DarkSoul]

From what I've seen this isn't, and hasn't been, a mechanics debate. If you ignore the fluff there's no reason you can't go Ur-Priest > RKV. The incompatibility that started the debate is purely due to the fact that the first sentence describing UrP says they despise gods, and the RKV's fluff dedicates them and their variants to service of a deity. Ur-priests wouldn't submit to a deity if they had a choice in the matter. But a DM is free to house rule their own versions. I did it for my own campaign.

[noob]

From what I've seen this isn't, and hasn't been, a mechanics debate. If you ignore the fluff there's no reason you can't go Ur-Priest > RKV. The incompatibility that started the debate is purely due to the fact that the first sentence describing UrP says they despise gods, and the RKV's fluff dedicates them and their variants to service of a deity. Ur-priests wouldn't submit to a deity if they had a choice in the matter. But a DM is free to house rule their own versions. I did it for my own campaign.

Except I told there was multiple base fluff for ur priest including one that is a follower of a dead god fluff and I was arguing that due to that fluff in the manuals it was possible for an ur priest to be follower of a dead god then be a rkv of that dead god and get their crusader insight from a cause such as the one of bringing back their dead god and the fluff written for ur priest allows that.

[Cosi]

From what I've seen this isn't, and hasn't been, a mechanics debate. If you ignore the fluff there's no reason you can't go Ur-Priest > RKV. The incompatibility that started the debate is purely due to the fact that the first sentence describing UrP says they despise gods, and the RKV's fluff dedicates them and their variants to service of a deity. Ur-priests wouldn't submit to a deity if they had a choice in the matter. But a DM is free to house rule their own versions. I did it for my own campaign.

Two points seem obvious to me:

1. The fluff problem here is that RKV is stupid for limiting a character concept in ways it doesn't need to be. There's no reason that characters combining ToB and Divine Magic should be faced with the choice of worshiping Wee Jas or being mechanically inferior. The class doesn't do anything particularly Wee Jas-ish except arguably Armored Stealth.
2. Ur Priest is overpowered, particularly in concert with Theurge PrCs. Particularly if those Theurges combine with subsystems that are actually decent.

So the obviously correct solution if you're not playing by strict RAW is (in my mind) to ban Ur Priest and let anyone who happens to want to use both cure light wounds and assassin's stance be a Ruby Knight Vindicator. The actual debate seems to be an instance of a common, and in my view bad, line of argument that seeks to find an interpretation of RAW that isn't broken and then use that interpretation, rather than accepting that RAW is broken and making changes that fix it.

[DarkSoul]

If you adapt the classes to better suit your game and everyone's happy, great. Like I said, I did that for my own campaign... a major portion of my world's "evil empire" is made up of Ur-Priest/Warlocks who were taught the secrets of stealing divine power from their archfiend patron, because it hates certain gods more than anyone. As it stands, though, without getting into the Adaptation sections of the various classes, an Ur-Priest wouldn't even consider becoming a RKV.

@Cosi: I agree with all of that.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Ur-Priests can derive power from dead gods, Crusaders don’t even need one. There’s literally no reason but subjective fluff not to say that those “divine flashes of inspiration” aren’t echoes of the dead god’s will or something.