PDA

View Full Version : Social Skills (the real question)



Riffington
2007-09-13, 09:32 AM
When I was trying to ask more, we got caught down in the minor points. I want to ask the big picture question.

When your characters start getting obscene ranks in certain skills (Tracking), most DMs will let them do more amazing stunts. You start able to follow footprints in dirt, and move to tracking over rocks. Eventually you can track down the pigeon that pooped on your wagon.
With other skills (Open Locks) the DC's just get harder. Most DM's keep putting harder locks out for you to match your skill - never mind that the lock has become higher tech than an AK-47. They don't let you do more than open locks with it.

Which way do you go with social skills?
A: they scale with level. A good bluff lets you convince the king to "invest" his treasury with you. A very high bluff lets you convince him that his most trusted advisor with Sense Motive is the liar here. A sick bluff lets you convince him that he didn't just give you that money ten seconds ago (but that if he finds it, he should).
If two kingdoms possess diplomats with high Diplomacy and Sense Motive, they'll never go to war. They can always find a good compromise instead. Corollary: if elves kill orcs, it's because they're *******s. It would be just as easy to convince the orcs to go home (with Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy).

B: they just get harder DC's, like Open Locks. You do the same basic things with Bluff and Diplomacy at 1st and 15th level. You just need higher rolls to go with your higher stats. Maybe things scale a little, but not that much.

C: you gimp characters at low levels, so that the skills can scale. Even though Earth conmen (bluff +3) routinely bilk people of their money, you make this DC 30 or 40. Kevin Mitnick's tricks are simply unavailable to the 2nd level bard.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-13, 09:42 AM
A mix of A and B.

It really depends on who they use it against. If they are high level and try to bluff some random guy off the street, they automaticly make it. But if they try to bluff that high level NPC, they probably won't. Additionally, They might be using their social skills against groups which gets extremely hard. For a mob of 10 people it is a DC40 to get one person to leave. DC120 to change attitude of the mob by 1 step (if I remember correctly, I think it was in Cityscape). and a DC400 to break up the mob. That kind of stuff is way out of their league even into epic. So sometimes they just do the same stuff, while other times the try harder tasks.

Bosh
2007-09-13, 09:46 AM
Well I don't necessarily have the skills work that way, I do it more along these lines:
Very high diplomacy role: I think you're my friend and I like you and I'll do the sorts of things I do to or for my friends.
Very high bluff role: I believe that you're not lying.
Intimidate: You scare me.

However just because someone's your friend or says things that you believe aren't lies or is scary doesn't mean that you're going to do what they want. If your friend told you to give him all your money, would you do so?

Kurald Galain
2007-09-13, 09:56 AM
C relies on the assumption that everybody on Earth is fifth level or less, which hardly everybody agrees with.

A second-level diplomancer should not be able to do the things he technically can by the RAW, and hence "gimping" low-level characters is not all that unreasonable. What makes you think the King is going to listen to a smalltown bard, anyway?

JackMage666
2007-09-13, 09:57 AM
never mind that the lock has become higher tech than an AK-47. They don't let you do more than open locks with it.
AK-47s are, if I remember correctly, one of the more simple gun in existence. Hence why they're so widely used and made.

Back to topic, social skills suck, but mainly diplomacy. Bluff is counteracted by Sense Motive, so it scales up to still be a challenge sometimes at high level. Gather Information is... Gather Information, no real problems here, except noone ever uses it.
Intimidate sucks, and we all know the reasons.
Diplomacy sucks, and we all know the reasons. Possble have Sense Motive counteract Diplomacy? Maybe that would be a slight fix.

Rad
2007-09-13, 10:00 AM
I generally disregard theose rules in D&D. If I do DM I warn the players so they can avoid to put ranks there.

Saph
2007-09-13, 10:16 AM
Neither A, B, or C.

The way I DM it is that social skills only work if the target is willing to listen to you. If they do, then go for it. However, under no circumstances can social skills be used for mind control. If the target has decided that he simply will not listen to something, then you can't make him do so except by extreme measures.

What social skills are useful for in my games is for 'spinning' - putting the best face possible on a situation. The DCs are house-ruled, but follow normal difficulty guidelines - 10 easy, 15 standard, 20 hard, 30 very hard, 40 outrageously hard.

For example, let's say you're using the Diplomacy skill. Objective: convince the target to be friendly with you and part on good terms.

DC 5 - Target is a friend already.
DC 15 - Target is a random passer-by.
DC 20 - Target is someone with a reason not to stop and chat (eg bouncer).
DC 30 - Target is a person whose house you've just broken into, and he's just walked in and found you in his living room. Even with a success, he's going to stay wary and will shout for the guard at the first sign of trouble.
DC 40 - Target is a person whose house you've just broken into, and you and your party are standing over a bloodstained body. In this case all a success will do is make him listen to you for ten more seconds rather than run screaming for the guard immediately.
DC ? - Target is a red dragon who's just caught you in its treasure hoard. It doesn't matter what you say because it's not interested in talking to you in the first place. You're not a sentient being to it, you're lunch.

- Saph

Arakune
2007-09-13, 10:53 AM
Neither A, B, or C.

The way I DM it is that social skills only work if the target is willing to listen to you. If they do, then go for it. However, under no circumstances can social skills be used for mind control. If the target has decided that he simply will not listen to something, then you can't make him do so except by extreme measures.

What social skills are useful for in my games is for 'spinning' - putting the best face possible on a situation. The DCs are house-ruled, but follow normal difficulty guidelines - 10 easy, 15 standard, 20 hard, 30 very hard, 40 outrageously hard.

For example, let's say you're using the Diplomacy skill. Objective: convince the target to be friendly with you and part on good terms.

DC 5 - Target is a friend already.
DC 15 - Target is a random passer-by.
DC 20 - Target is someone with a reason not to stop and chat (eg bouncer).
DC 30 - Target is a person whose house you've just broken into, and he's just walked in and found you in his living room. Even with a success, he's going to stay wary and will shout for the guard at the first sign of trouble.
DC 40 - Target is a person whose house you've just broken into, and you and your party are standing over a bloodstained body. In this case all a success will do is make him listen to you for ten more seconds rather than run screaming for the guard immediately.
DC ? - Target is a red dragon who's just caught you in its treasure hoard. It doesn't matter what you say because it's not interested in talking to you in the first place. You're not a sentient being to it, you're lunch.

- Saph

That is a very intelligent way to handle the diplomacy abuse. For the DC40 scenario (assuming you passed the check):
You-"Bring a healer and the guards quickly while I chase the other guy. Tell then the 'Blade Brotherhood' are in the city!"
Civilian-"What? Who? I will..."
You-"Now or else he will die! Do you want the death of someone in your conscience because you didn't called help soon enough?!"
Civilian-"An, hum, Ok!"

And then scape. May (or not) work if you are lucky enough.

Leicontis
2007-09-13, 11:09 AM
Bluff/Sense motive I do as opposed rolls, more or less per RAW. Same goes for Intimidate. However, any Bluff or Diplomacy check attempted in conversation must be accompanied by at least an attempt by the player to roleplay what their character is saying. I then "filter" this through their Diplomacy/Bluff roll or modifier. As has been pointed out - circumstances are a heavy influence on such things. Hot lady rogue trying to seduce an unmarried sailor just returning from 6 months at sea? Easy! Trying this after being caught trying to pick his pockets? Hard! The more plausible a bluff and the more receptive the target, the easier the check. The friendlier and more receptive a Diplomacy target is, and the more reasonable the goal, the easier the check.

Telonius
2007-09-13, 11:41 AM
Hot lady rogue trying to seduce an unmarried sailor just returning from 6 months at sea? Easy! Trying this after being caught trying to pick his pockets? Hard! The more plausible a bluff and the more receptive the target, the easier the check. The friendlier and more receptive a Diplomacy target is, and the more reasonable the goal, the easier the check.

It's also important to remember which check is applicable, when.

Bluff check: "Wha-? Ohh, sorry there, looks like I was in the wrong pocket." :smallwink:

Diplomacy check: "Well, you could turn me in to the guards. Or, you could (whisperwhisperwhisper). Your pick."

Justin_Bacon
2007-09-13, 12:01 PM
When your characters start getting obscene ranks in certain skills (Tracking), most DMs will let them do more amazing stunts. You start able to follow footprints in dirt, and move to tracking over rocks. Eventually you can track down the pigeon that pooped on your wagon.

With other skills (Open Locks) the DC's just get harder. Most DM's keep putting harder locks out for you to match your skill - never mind that the lock has become higher tech than an AK-47. They don't let you do more than open locks with it.

Which way do you go with social skills?


Both. And, personally, I do this with all aspects of the game.

For the game to remain interesting, higher level characters need to still be met with circumstances which challenge them. But this doesn't mean that the things which used to challenge them don't still exist.

So a 10th level character will encounter locks that are both trivial to open, difficult to open, and impossible to open. It's also possible for this character to encounter goblin clans that they can wipe out, giants who pose a challenge, and ancient dragons capable of wiping the floor with them.

This gives players a feeling of accomplishment as their characters improve. But it keeps the game interesting.

As for Diplomacy, check the .sig.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net