PLEASE HELP!!! Lv 9 life Cleric VS Storm Giant 1v1

[C Dubbs247]

I registered with Giant in the Playground to BEG for your help...

Long story short: Jagang the Terrible, my lvl 9 Hill Dwarf Life Domain Cleric has a 1v1 battle against a Storm Giant....

The play session is tomorrow night but my Character has 1 month and about 60,000 GP to prepare...

My thought process was basicly: OK, well Clerics can select from this entire list of spells fresh after a long rest so I should be able to put together a "Giant killer" loadout for this one fight...

now I'm not seeing it...

ANY input is appreciated...

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's about 1.5x your entire daily XP budget, on a class/subclass with limited (if any) nova capabilities. I don't give you good odds unless the DM throws the fight.

However, more information is needed.
* Terrain
* Starting conditions (in melee? at range? open arena?)
* Your gear/boons/build
* Possibility of a victory condition other than the death of the opponent.

[Unoriginal]

I'd like to know how you got into this situation, if you don't mind.

Is it a formal duel?

Also can you buy magic items?

[C Dubbs247]

It's a Colosseum fight for control of his tribe.

500' diameter circle Colosseum, starting well, idk.... in the Colosseum. I have a ring of telekinesis and a staff of swarming insects...

Built like a pure healer....

I have 60,000 GP to spend, i can buy magic items.... the group has 400,000 gp pool I could "borrow" from if there's a magic item that could help

[C Dubbs247]

A tribe of Storm giants was suppressing (enslaving) a tribe of humans that we were sent to free.... the Chief giant wanted our one female Character to "wed" him and carry its child to term... effectively killing her.

so we said nope and searched the tribe's ancient records for another way to gain control of the tribe and found the combat trial option...

the problem is we can't just smuggle the slaves out, they have to be "freed"

the DM wants this fight..... i assumed i missing something and should be able to pull this off....

[Daghoulish]

I'm not sure bud, sounds like a losing situation. I'm not too familiar with magic items but as for spells you should definitely have death ward on yourself. If you could get a bestow curse off on the giant you could make him have disadvantage on attacks against you, not sure how much it would help. I'm not sure how much it would cost but if your DM let's you you could get a ring of spell storing with darkness in it and a Gem of Seeing to offset it.

[leogobsin]

You'll only have one shot at it, and a storm giant does have +9 to Wis saves, but you could try using Geas to command the giant to surrender?

[RSP]

I'm not sure bud, sounds like a losing situation. I'm not too familiar with magic items but as for spells you should definitely have death ward on yourself. If you could get a bestow curse off on the giant you could make him have disadvantage on attacks against you, not sure how much it would help. I'm not sure how much it would cost but if your DM let's you you could get a ring of spell storing with darkness in it and a Gem of Seeing to offset it.

If using Bestow Curse, isn’t the Sv or no action better than Disadvantage?

[krugaan]

It's truly a storm giant? Because it would fairly trivial for it to squish you in one round of attacks.

It's a cr13 monster for chrissakes.

He's given you a month to prepare?

[Unoriginal]

It's a Colosseum fight for control of his tribe.

500' diameter circle Colosseum, starting well, idk.... in the Colosseum. I have a ring of telekinesis and a staff of swarming insects...

Built like a pure healer....

I have 60,000 GP to spend, i can buy magic items.... the group has 400,000 gp pool I could "borrow" from if there's a magic item that could help

Alright, so here's what you should do:

First, you buy Boots of Speed and a Ring of Air Elemental Command (and you kill an air elemental while attuned to it)

This will give you resistance to lightning damage, which will save your bacon vs the Storm part, and 50 ft of flight speed with hovering, which will save your bacon vs the Giant part.

If you can't get those, get any magic item that grant you flight at a good speed.

Then, you need spells that target DEX, and to a lesser extent INT or AC.

So you open with a Flame Strike, then Sacred Flame would probably be your best bet.

BUT, since you have one month to prepare and a lot of money, you should prepare a tons of Glyphs of Warding (Exploding Runes acid damage version), write them down in the pages of a book with the condition "explode when seen by a Storm Giant who's standing in range of the explosion", then you tear down the pages one by one and let said page drop at the Giant.

It'll cost you a lot, but you can win.

You need to use your Staff of Insects to be in an obscured area (which makes you non-targetable by the Giant's lightnings and hard to hit by the boulders), and in the 10 minutes 2 of your magic items will work you keep yourself healed and get away from the Giant who can levitate. Just throw your Glyphs from above and keep hitting them with Sacred Flame or Flame Strike if you can't.


EDIT: Like others have said, Death Ward could be very useful for you.

[C Dubbs247]

Alright, so here's what you should do:

First, you buy Boots of Speed and a Ring of Air Elemental Command (and you kill an air elemental while attuned to it)

This will give you resistance to lightning damage, which will save your bacon vs the Storm part, and 50 ft of flight speed with hovering, which will save your bacon vs the Giant part.

If you can't get those, get any magic item that grant you flight at a good speed.

Then, you need spells that target DEX, and to a lesser extent INT or AC.

So you open with a Flame Strike, then Sacred Flame would probably be your best bet.

BUT, since you have one month to prepare and a lot of money, you should prepare a tons of Glyphs of Warding (Exploding Runes acid damage version), write them down in the pages of a book with the condition "explode when seen by a Storm Giant who's standing in range of the explosion", then you tear down the pages one by one and let said page drop at the Giant.

It'll cost you a lot, but you can win.

You need to use your Staff of Insects to be in an obscured area (which makes you non-targetable by the Giant's lightnings and hard to hit by the boulders), and in the 10 minutes 2 of your magic items will work you keep yourself healed and get away from the Giant who can levitate. Just throw your Glyphs from above and keep hitting them with Sacred Flame or Flame Strike if you can't.


EDIT: Like others have said, Death Ward could be very useful for you.

THIS!

This is it. Thank you sir

[Unoriginal]

THIS!

This is it. Thank you sir

You're welcome, but keep in mind you're still likely to lose if anything goes wrong.

What you need to remember is to stay away from the sword, and that if the Giant is levitating then he cannot grab that many boulders, so he'll have to come down to refill at some point.

If you have an AC-targetting spell better than Sacred Flame that is worth the spell slot, you can use it too. But I'd warn you to stick to the Glyphs while you can.



A tribe of Storm giants was suppressing (enslaving) a tribe of humans that we were sent to free.... the Chief giant wanted our one female Character to "wed" him and carry its child to term... effectively killing her.

...Storm Giants are three-four times the size of humans. Forget carrying a baby to term, the sex alone would kill her.

Also, do you get a Storm Giant wife if you win leadership of the tribe? Better be sure about that.

[Mellack]

THIS!

This is it. Thank you sir

Won't work. Glyphs deactivate if moved more than 10 feet. So unless you can pin that book in the air over the arena for the month of preparation and not have to drop the pages more than 10', it will be a waste.

[MrWesson22]

Unless you can get immunity to lightning damage and stay away from him, you have no chance. Lightning strike alone will kill you before you can chew through his hp.

[krugaan]

Won't work. Glyphs deactivate if moved more than 10 feet. So unless you can pin that book in the air over the arena for the month of preparation and not have to drop the pages more than 10', it will be a waste.

Was going to say this.

Maybe if he planted them in the arena somehow and lured the giant over them?

[Unoriginal]

Won't work. Glyphs deactivate if moved more than 10 feet. So unless you can pin that book in the air over the arena for the month of preparation and not have to drop the pages more than 10', it will be a waste.

Oh, right, I've misread that bit.


Well nevertheless, kitting the Giant with DEX save spells is your best chance here. So you can stock up on magic items that allows you to use such spells.

Here's a list, which might be not complete, but still useful:

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?760152-5e-List-of-spells-by-save


Unless you can get immunity to lightning damage and stay away from him, you have no chance. Lightning strike alone will kill you before you can chew through his hp.

Staff of Insects make him impossible to target with Lightning Strikes for 10 mins.

And the Ring of Air Elemantal Command grants lightning resistance, which I think is the best lvl 9 characters can hope for.

[C Dubbs247]

my plan is to store the book in the ceiling of the arena and add to the book at night when the arena is empty so the book can stay stashed in the ceiling.

i have a telekinesis ring which I can use to "fly" up to the book to add to it.

I'm going to buy an item that gives me a fly speed of 50 or more, maybe a scroll of polymorph and turn into a hawk for the fight.

set the condition of casting to "cast just before the book gets 10' away from starting location"

fly around then use telekinesis to free the book and drop it when the giant is close enough to hit him.

[RSP]

So quick thoughts are:

- Upcast Aid for more HP prefight.
- if you have distance to close, cast SW as a bonus action
- once in melee use Contagion as your 5th level slot and select Slimy Doom. This will last at least 3 Rounds but the 3 Con saves to break it will all be disadvantaged. If he takes damage, he’s stunned that round, so hopefully you have SW up to hit him and stun him.
- cast Spiritual Guardians, now he’s always taking damage, and is stunned
- Cast Guardian of Faith strategically placed that the SG is going to get hit. (Dex save or 20 HP, up to 3 times. This should guarantee he’s stunned 3 times)
- Renew Guardian of Faith once it drops and keep hitting him with SW

Hopefully he fails his Con saves for Contagion and he’s just stunned til he drops.

[JNAProductions]

Contagion doesn't work until all three saves are failed. For exactly that reason.

[RSP]

Contagion doesn't work until all three saves are failed. For exactly that reason.

No, it takes effect immediately. If you pass three checks, it ends. If you fail 3 checks it lasts 7 days.

[Unoriginal]

my plan is to store the book in the ceiling of the arena and add to the book at night when the arena is empty so the book can stay stashed in the ceiling.

i have a telekinesis ring which I can use to "fly" up to the book to add to it.

I'm going to buy an item that gives me a fly speed of 50 or more, maybe a scroll of polymorph and turn into a hawk for the fight.

set the condition of casting to "cast just before the book gets 10' away from starting location"

fly around then use telekinesis to free the book and drop it when the giant is close enough to hit him.

I doubt the viability of this plan.




- once in melee use Contagion as your 5th level slot and select Slimy Doom. This will last at least 3 Rounds but the 3 Con saves to break it will all be disadvantaged

No, they won't. The spell doesn't work like that.

Also, getting in melee with a Storm Giant at this level is suicide.


No, it takes effect immediately.

It does not.

[RSP]

I doubt the viability of this plan.




No, they won't. The spell doesn't work like that.

Also, getting in melee with a Storm Giant at this level is suicide.

Why not? “Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.”

Granted you need to hit, but the disease takes effect immediately: the target is afflicted with the disease.

Then it states:

“At the end of each of the target's turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease's effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.”

If you make 3 checks, you “recover from the disease” and the spell ends. If you aren’t under the effects, what are you recovering from?

[JNAProductions]

It's been errata'd, and with good reason.

[RSP]

It's been errata'd, and with good reason.

Not according to the last errata on the WotC site. Is there a more recent one than 1.22?

[C Dubbs247]

I doubt the viability of this plan.


helpfull....

i was proud of that, whats wrong with it?

[Unoriginal]

helpfull....

i was proud of that, whats wrong with it?

Can't use the Staff of Insects if you're an hawk.

Seriously, if you don't have the insect cloud around you, you're going to get fried.

If you can trick the giant into getting in range, and your DM rules that all the explosive runes blow at once, then it works. But you need the Staff.


On other subjects: have you looked if there was a giant willing it help you, or who could be convinced to support you?

[C Dubbs247]

Can't use the Staff of Insects if you're an hawk.

Seriously, if you don't have the insect cloud around you, you're going to get fried.

If you can trick the giant into getting in range, and your DM rules that all the explosive runes blow at once, then it works. But you need the Staff.


On other subjects: have you looked if there was a giant willing it help you, or who could be convinced to support you?



I forgot about the obscured vision part....

I'll get there. The real break threw here as i see it is the "book Bomb" If i can hit him with that and have it kill him... the rest is seasoning...

so... full disclosure...

I kinda made a big deal about .. "No, no, no... I got this... ITS ON! LETS DO THIS!"

So... no, i have to win no contest....

[Derpaligtr]

Long shot but... Can you get...

Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Giant Strength
Guantlet of Ogre Power

Giant’s Bane (Requires Attunement). You must be wearing a Belt of Giant Strength (any variety) and Gauntlets of Ogre Power to attune to this weapon. The attunement ends if you take off either of those items. While you are attuned to this weapon and holding it, your Strength score increases by 4 and can exceed 20, but not 30. When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made with this weapon against a giant, the giant must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or die.

The hammer also has 5 charges. While attuned to it, you can expend 1 charge and make a ranged weapon attack with the hammer, hurling it as if it had the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. If the attack hits, the hammer unleashes a thunderclap audible out to 300 feet. The target and every creature within 30 feet of it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or be Stunned until the end of your next turn. The hammer regains 1d4 + 1 expended charges daily at dawn.


****

You probably won't need to fight, the giant will probably give up. The hammer may be a long shot but the others could work... Then just make a fake hammer of Thunderbolts?

[C Dubbs247]

Long shot but... Can you get...

Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Giant Strength
Guantlet of Ogre Power

Giant’s Bane (Requires Attunement). You must be wearing a Belt of Giant Strength (any variety) and Gauntlets of Ogre Power to attune to this weapon. The attunement ends if you take off either of those items. While you are attuned to this weapon and holding it, your Strength score increases by 4 and can exceed 20, but not 30. When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made with this weapon against a giant, the giant must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or die.

The hammer also has 5 charges. While attuned to it, you can expend 1 charge and make a ranged weapon attack with the hammer, hurling it as if it had the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. If the attack hits, the hammer unleashes a thunderclap audible out to 300 feet. The target and every creature within 30 feet of it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or be Stunned until the end of your next turn. The hammer regains 1d4 + 1 expended charges daily at dawn.


****

You probably won't need to fight, the giant will probably give up. The hammer may be a long shot but the others could work... Then just make a fake hammer of Thunderbolts?


LOVE this!

my DM will love the idea of planting the idea of the item and then counterfeiting the item... maybe the chief will come to me to negotiate....

[Vorpalchicken]

One possible complication of the insect staff idea is that the rather bright Storm Giant may also have prepared, gained knowledge of your preparations and purchases and precast control weather to nullify the swarm with a moderately fast wind.

[Derpaligtr]

LOVE this!

my DM will love the idea of planting the idea of the item and then counterfeiting the item... maybe the chief will come to me to negotiate....

Glad you love it!

If you still have to fight... Just keep dodging and healing. Say something like "I come in peace. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you @%$# with me, I’ll kill you." and act like you don't want to throw the hammer and then eventually start to throw the hammer...

This will make it look like the real thing as you're a LIFE cleric and you wouldn't want to kill unless you absolutely had to.

Side note, that's a butchered James Mattis quote.

[Unoriginal]

One possible complication of the insect staff idea is that the rather bright Storm Giant may also have prepared, gained knowledge of your preparations and purchases and precast control weather to nullify the swarm with a moderately fast wind.

Pretty sure Control Weather doesn't work inside.


Glad you love it!

If you still have to fight... Just keep dodging and healing. Say something like "I come in peace. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you @%$# with me, I’ll kill you." and act like you don't want to throw the hammer and then eventually start to throw the hammer...

This will make it look like the real thing as you're a LIFE cleric and you wouldn't want to kill unless you absolutely had to.

Side note, that's a butchered James Mattis quote.


OP, if you go with this, you probably should go with the book plan too. Just make so that the book explosion coincide to you hitting with the hammer.

[C Dubbs247]

this Community is without a doubt the most powerful spell you can cast in 5e

[C Dubbs247]

*falls to knees and presents ax and shield to forum*

[Unoriginal]

Wait, you're level 9.

You could pray once each day, and ask for a Divine Intervention to sap the Giant Chief's physical might just before the duel.

With a month, you should be able to get it, mathematically speaking.

[AvvyR]

The "Please don't make me kill you with my fake magic items" route is the most appropriate, most D&D, and most awesome way to solve this. Far better than any real battle.

That said, I'd still recommend having the lightning resistance and flight, plus deathward and any temp HP you can get, just in case he decides to try frying you.

Additional important note, your fakes still need to be magical. He can cast Detect Magic at will, and really should. Nystul's Magic Aura can take care of this for you if you have a Wizard friend that can do it for you the morning of the battle.

[leogobsin]

Wait, you're level 9.

You could pray once each day, and ask for a Divine Intervention to sap the Giant Chief's physical might just before the duel.

With a month, you should be able to get it, mathematically speaking.

Divine Intervention is a 10th level feature, unfortunately.

[Galadhrim]

Will you be scrying on the storm giant during the month leading up to the fight? You may be able to find out some useful information to use against him, especially if you are planning to go the bluff him into giving up route.

[Unoriginal]

You also need a Nystul's Magic Aura to hide the Glyph book.

[Galadhrim]

You said the rules indicate you fight the storm giant one on one. Would a strict reading of them allow for undead to fight along side you? If so, you could animate a large skeleton army and equip them with bows and armor. Have them spread out and pepper the SG with arrows.

[AvvyR]

You also need a Nystul's Magic Aura to hide the Glyph book.

Yes, if you were still going that route, you'd need it for this as well. Might be easier to accomplish in a Ring of Spell Storing in this case.

[AvvyR]

You said the rules indicate you fight the storm giant one on one. Would a strict reading of them allow for undead to fight along side you? If so, you could animate a large skeleton army and equip them with bows and armor. Have them spread out and pepper the SG with arrows.

Violate the spirit, if not the letter of the rules AND slaughter a couple peasant villages AND desecrate their corpses? Sign me up!

You're one of those lawful evil Life Clerics, right? You know, the kind of guy so devoted to life that he kills people, and creates undead.

[Derpaligtr]

You also need a Nystul's Magic Aura to hide the Glyph book.

"If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place; if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered."

Glyph books don't work as well as they did in 3e.

But, note to self, move 11' in any given direction before reading a book.

[Galadhrim]

Violate the spirit, if not the letter of the rules AND slaughter a couple peasant villages AND desecrate their corpses? Sign me up!

You're one of those lawful evil Life Clerics, right?

They are trying to free human slaves from a tribe of giants. There are sure to be plenty of corpses lying around. Whether his god is ok with it he would know better than me. As for violating the spirit of the agreement, it's a death match with an opponent who has an entire people group enslaved and agreed to free them only if he could murder one of the party members through child birth. Not really the dude I'm losing sleep over violating the spirit of an agreement with.

[AvvyR]

"If you choose an object, that object must remain in its place; if the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered."

Glyph books don't work as well as they did in 3e.

But, note to self, move 11' in any given direction before reading a book.

This was addressed previously in the thread.

And to Galadhrim, I was mostly making a joke about how armies of undead aren't something a typical Life cleric would ever consider, not suggesting that my statements were the only options.

[Darkmatter]

If you want to outright win the fight and legendary items like the Hammer of Thunderbolts are a possibility, the Talisman of Pure Good is a better and simpler choice. It only will work on an evil opponent. You should cast divination spells to make sure, but from the description of his actions I'd call DM shenanigans if that storm giant chief isn't evil. A charge from the Talisman of Pure Good as your opening action has a 85% chance of a one shot kill, without even trying to optimize giving him disadvantage on the save. And you can try again and again for the next 7 rounds (death ward should get you at least one extra round to try...)

[Galadhrim]

And to Galadhrim, I was mostly making a joke about how armies of undead aren't something a typical Life cleric would ever consider, not suggesting that my statements were the only options.

I hear you. I just didn't want him to be dissuaded simply because the character sheet says good on it.

Animate dead is spell that becomes significantly more powerful in this situation with known prep time. You could maintain up to 32 skeletons if you use all of your spell slots right before long resting.

When all you have are bad options, sometimes raising the dead is the lessor of two evils.

[Kalashak]

helpfull....

i was proud of that, whats wrong with it?

Well, for one thing, you can't use a scroll of polymorph

[Corran]

You could use hallow (the fear option seems a good way to spare yourself from the giant's melee attacks) during one of the days leading to the deathmatch. It wont make a difference most likely, since the storm giant has very good charisma saves. But it wouldn't hurt you. Of course this is far from a winning strategy, not even a good backup plan. Maybe it's the backup of the backup of the backup plan. But it's free, so do it if you are allowed. Perhaps even request the permission of the storm giant leader to do so. And being a holy man this is a very appropriate spell to use. If it tricks the storm giant into believing this is your core strategy, then maybe you could exploit that if, you know... if you have an actual good strategy...
Good luck man...:smallfrown:

[Vorpalchicken]

Pretty sure Control Weather doesn't work inside.

It's coliseum. I don't think that counts as being inside. You're definitely affected by the weather.

[Mellack]

If it is a Colosseum, there is also no roof to hide your glyph book in.

Other concerns to keep in mind. The giant has a 10 foot reach, so if you are close enough to glyph, he can hit you also. So beware of readied actions. The giant also has levitate at will. If he casts it on you,he can either keep you from getting into range, or pull you down to him if you get close. Depending on DM ruling, it may even negate your flying around if they go strict reading that you can only move by pushing or pulling on something solid.

[Unoriginal]

Could put the Glyph book in the ground, with the trigger "explode if a Storm Giant steps on it within 10 minutes after I've stepped on it, and start the fight with your foot at the right place.

[MrStabby]

You have 1 month... 30 adventuring days.

If you adventure hard in that time it is not unreasonable to go up 4 levels, assuming sparse downtime and not too much travelling.

Even 2 levels is enough to get you level 6 spells and divine intervention and is still likely to keep you some days spare to prepare, opening up spells like planar ally.

How is the DM about wands and such? A wand of phantasmal force or other way of accessing the spell might be good: +3 to save is their lowest and the illusion can go round their head to block their view. It should then protect you from the lightning.



Maybe you can see if you can get access to this by earning the favour of a trickster god - freeing slaves seems something a good aligned trickster god would get behind. Especially if you are willing to cheat to do it. 30 days should let you complete a moderately long side quest arc to earn their favour.

[Greywander]

Could you have it "arm" by speaking a command word, then trigger when a storm giant gets within range (and you are out of range)? I'm guessing it's not feasible to create multiple such glyph book bombs and put them in several places throughout the arena. If you were to scatter individual pages all across the arena, would you be able to get him to trigger more than one, or would he be able to avoid them once he knows what to look for? I'm guessing you've only got one shot at this, but it might be handy to have several book bombs so that it becomes easier to trigger at least one.

You could also Hallow the area around the bomb(s) with acid vulnerability. It won't do anything if he makes his save, but if he fails it would double the damage from the Glyphs. Just make sure it doesn't get detected before the duel.

You can also put spells in the glyphs. Such as Flame Strike (although it will do less damage than Explosive Runes), Blindness/Deafness (not likely to work, unless he triggers enough of them), Insect Plague (weaker than explosive runes, but creates a damage zone), Guardian of Faith (see Insect Plague), Bestow Curse (I'd try to apply all possible effects via multiple curses), as well as healing spells and defensive buffs. Glyph of Warding allows you to break the normal concentration rules, with the caveat that you can't move the glyph. Since you know where the fight will be taking place, you can have it absolutely covered with glyphs before the fight starts.

For Bestow Curse, I'd try to apply them in this order: disadvantage on WIS saves (Bestow Curse requires a WIS save, so this will make future curses more likely to apply. Next I would either give it disadvantage on attack rolls, or make it skip its turn on failed WIS saves. After both of those, then disadvantage on DEX saves, and last extra necrotic damage when you hit him. Maybe negotiate with your DM to see if you can put a curse on him that cuts his speed in half, or reduces it significantly.

If he precasts Control Weather, try to get him to drop concentration (Bestow Curse disadvantage on CON saves, maybe?) and you can then activate the cloud of insects.

Bestow Curse might be more trouble than it's worth. If you stack up enough Explosive Runes, he'll die instantly even if he passes all his saves thanks to taking half damage. A backup plan wouldn't hurt, though.

[Citan]

I registered with Giant in the Playground to BEG for your help...

Long story short: Jagang the Terrible, my lvl 9 Hill Dwarf Life Domain Cleric has a 1v1 battle against a Storm Giant....

The play session is tomorrow night but my Character has 1 month and about 60,000 GP to prepare...

My thought process was basicly: OK, well Clerics can select from this entire list of spells fresh after a long rest so I should be able to put together a "Giant killer" loadout for this one fight...

now I'm not seeing it...

ANY input is appreciated...
Hi! ;)

Well, first things first: with all that leeway, you have chance of winning actually.

Second: Glyph of Warding seems kinda cheesy and awkward, so I won't pursue that lead.
Instead.
Let's first recall what a Storm Giant can do.
It can...
- make heavy attacks with +14 to hit, each dealing average above 30.
- throw a big rock with +14 to hit.
- use a lighting AOE *on a point he can see* up to a freaking distance.
He can also Levitate and Detect Magic at will.
Defense-wise, he has +9 against WIS and CHA, +0 in INT and DEX.
And high passice perception but otherwise nothing special.

As a 9th level Life Cleric, "standard", your fortes are...
- 20 AC stat (heavy armor, shield).
- DC 16 (8+4+4) presumably.
- 2*(9*5) HP regen usable on action on a presumably ~80 character.
- Access to a bootload of great spells, including Sanctuary, Spirit Guardians, Enhance Ability, Planar Binding and the like...
- Potential access to great many magic items, including the Armor that prevents critical hits (don't remember the name), Rings of Spell Storing (that you can use to store friend's spells such as Greater Invisibility, Haste, Wall of Force, Conjure Animals / Elemental, etc), Bag of Holding that can maybe be used to store a creature just before you enter the challenge (wild idea here, no idea whether would work by RAW especially with suffocation), magical armors...

So, basic chance of Storm Giant to hit you: +14 against 20, will need just a 6, chance to hit 75%. That hurts indeed.
What can we do against that?
First, you could impose disadvantage: Ring of Spell Storing (Fly / Greater Invisibility) would help much on that, putting chance to hit on a more reasonable 56%. Still huge though, especially since you will certainly lose concentration on first hit. There is also the simple and costless (barring action) Dodge. Effective, no cost. We'll get back on that.
Second, you could try and find a +2 armor and +1 shield (not unreasonable), pushing down to a reasonable 60% / 36%.
But this uses up attunement.
Third, you could use a potion of Invisibility, but it breaks when you take an action to attack/cast. Not ideal.

Second, you can use Sanctuary to put another barrier: even with a +9 bonus, Giant will still need to roll a 7 or higher. Not hard (70%) but any bit could help. Big deal is that it breaks if you do anything harmful in casting a spell or making an attack.

Then comes ranged attacks: rock is not the big deal here, it's the Lighting Strike. But it does require Giant to see it. Which is something you can act upon: making yourself invisible, using your staff to create obscuration (but it's centered on you, so will at most work once) or create cover with another spell, but most of them require concentration.

SO.
To survive, and win, you need...
1. To considerably reduce Giant threat: best way for that is making yourself invisible then Hide then put yourself beyond passive Perception distance...
2. Provided you also could get a way to damage Giant that does not break invisibility.

Well, enter the (best imo) solution.
Ring of Spell Storing, with an upcast 5th level Heat Metal. Simple, elegant, effective.
And another ring of spell storing with Absorb Elements / Shield or possibly Blink.
Or if only one ring, lesser level Heat Metal.
Storm Giant has Scale Mail, by the time he dons it it will have ended. And it will impose disadvantage on its attacks too.
Only problem is, it has low range, and you're not a Distant Sorcerer.
So it will all resolve in first turn: close in, cast Heat Metal as a bonus action, do what you want with your action (honestly even if you drink potion of Invisibility now, you can't Hide yet so Giant can easily do whatever he wants: better to let him strike you in melee and react with Shield potentially adverting attack, than having him use Lightning Strike close to you because you will most probably fail the save.

Then on subsequent turns, just drink potions and try unless you got Hidden well.
This is not a 100% win at all, but it's easy enough to set up.

Other tactics could include using Conjure Elementals / Animaks from rings to get external help, Polymorphing yourself into adequate beast (no idea though), or using one of the many magic items I don't know about to set up another way to quickly win.

[Unoriginal]

Staff of Insects is better than invisibility here.



Also, on the Glyph thing: it's true you can do better than Exploding Runes by making Flame Strike Glyphs.

It'll do a lot more damage overall.

[Greywander]

+0 in INT and DEX.
Actually +2 DEX and +3 INT, look at his stat block.

Second, you could try and find a +2 armor and +1 shield (not unreasonable), pushing down to a reasonable 60% / 36%.
But this uses up attunement.
Weapon/Shield/Armor +1/+2/+3 doesn't use attunement. It's only the special (non-generic) weapons and armor that require attunement. A sword of giant slaying would probably need attument, but a generic sword +3 would not. That said, 60k gp will net you one Very Rare or Legendary item (depending on if the DM uses minimum or maximum price values for magic items), and it's more economical to buy more common magic items. Armor +2 and Shield +1 would be within your budget, but you might not be able to afford much else.


Storm Giant has Scale Mail, by the time he dons it it will have ended.
Doffs, but I think everyone probably understands.

Make sure you upcast Heat Metal. At 2nd level, it only does 2d8 damage, or an average of 90 by the time it ends. Even upcasting it to 5th level will only deal on average 225 damage versus his 230 HP, but you could get lucky or it could weaken him enough that you could nail him with a Flame Strike. Using Hallow to give vulnerability to fire damage might work, too.


better to let him strike you in melee and react with Shield potentially adverting attack, than having him use Lightning Strike close to you because you will most probably fail the save.
If he activates the staff using his action on the same turn he uses Heat Metal, it should prevent him from being targeted with Lightning Strike. Use stored Shield to tank the inevitable weapon attack. Next turn, use a stored Dimension Door to teleport across the arena, then drink a potion of invisibility. Fly (broom of flying, if nothing else) up and out of range, while invisible, and wait for Heat Metal to expire. Cross your fingers and hope a Flame Strike will finish the job, if not use your insect swarm to protect yourself while you spam Sacred Flame from above the giant.

OP, did you say how many HP you have right now? It would be good to know how many hits you can take before you go down. If you can't take even one hit, things get complicated, but if you can tank at least one hit, then your options expand.

[Derpaligtr]

Staff of Insects is better than invisibility here.

Also, on the Glyph thing: it's true you can do better than Exploding Runes by making Flame Strike Glyphs.

It'll do a lot more damage overall.

You're more likely to get the Hammer of Thunderbolts than Glyph of Warding working.

Actually, how tall are storm giants? The book would need to be picked up and opened...


If you trigger by proximity, the poor storm giant grounds keeper or other contestants before you will get a surprise (assuming it's hidden).

Besides, you only get one per book, not per page. The book is the whole object.

[Unoriginal]

Invisibility is a waste if you use the staff, and using the staff is much bettter.


Another thing to consider, OP: the Giant Chief might be tougher than a regular Storm Giant. Any idea how strong he is?

[Throne12]

You have time and money you also know who the target is and what they can do. You also know the battlefield. So you can sneak into the arena and cast glyph of warding all over that thing. Make it where they go off with a command word each like 1 is a number.

Next create scroll of warding bond give one to a companion in your party. On the day of the fight have them cast warding bond on you so yall are splitting the damage between yall. Saving you a bit more. Also create a Aid spell scroll at the highest lv you can to use on the day of the fight. Now you need some way to get some temp hp. Also have another play cast haste on you.

Day of the fight.
Cast death ward on your self. Up cast as high as you can spiritual weapon this is your bonus action. Cast protecting from energy pick lighting. Then rest of the fight cast guiding bolt and healing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, do you get a Storm Giant wife if you win leadership of the tribe? Better be sure about that. The consummation of the marriage on the wedding night defies description, even if the medium sized cleric imbibed a potion of growth. :smalleek:

Question: if a human drinks a potion of growth, and then someone casts an enlarge spell on that now Large Sized human, would the character go from medium to large to huge? if yes, that might make the honemoon's first night acceptable to the bride ... maybe ...

*shakes head*

[Citan]

Actually +2 DEX and +3 INT, look at his stat block.

Weapon/Shield/Armor +1/+2/+3 doesn't use attunement. It's only the special (non-generic) weapons and armor that require attunement. A sword of giant slaying would probably need attument, but a generic sword +3 would not. That said, 60k gp will net you one Very Rare or Legendary item (depending on if the DM uses minimum or maximum price values for magic items), and it's more economical to buy more common magic items. Armor +2 and Shield +1 would be within your budget, but you might not be able to afford much else.


Doffs, but I think everyone probably understands.

Make sure you upcast Heat Metal. At 2nd level, it only does 2d8 damage, or an average of 90 by the time it ends. Even upcasting it to 5th level will only deal on average 225 damage versus his 230 HP, but you could get lucky or it could weaken him enough that you could nail him with a Flame Strike. Using Hallow to give vulnerability to fire damage might work, too.


If he activates the staff using his action on the same turn he uses Heat Metal, it should prevent him from being targeted with Lightning Strike. Use stored Shield to tank the inevitable weapon attack. Next turn, use a stored Dimension Door to teleport across the arena, then drink a potion of invisibility. Fly (broom of flying, if nothing else) up and out of range, while invisible, and wait for Heat Metal to expire. Cross your fingers and hope a Flame Strike will finish the job, if not use your insect swarm to protect yourself while you spam Sacred Flame from above the giant.

OP, did you say how many HP you have right now? It would be good to know how many hits you can take before you go down. If you can't take even one hit, things get complicated, but if you can tank at least one hit, then your options expand.
1. Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't sure.

2. I stressed that. With that said, I made the bet you could perfectly store an upcast version of a low level spell, but not actually sure it's valid per RAW.

3. No, actually. This was my first reflex. But OP would have used action and bonus action, so nothing left to Hide or Dash away from passive perception, unless DM is very nice and decides that footsteps fading away are not enough for Giant to know general direction and "lose him" (which is houseruling). Otherwise, Giant still knows overall the position of OP. Since Lightning Strike is an AOE, there is no need for Giant to aim "at" the character. He just needs to aim a few feet away on the ground character stands upon/next to.
Sorry, yes, you're right, my bad, didn't realize insect's swarm was 30 whole feet radius.
Regarding that by the way...

Staff of Insects is better than invisibility here.

I thought at first, then I dismissed it, for kinda the same reason. But it's true that insects cover 30 feet, so technically the Giant cannot use LIghtning Strike close enough to hit you except if for some reason you didn't order insects to swarm in an hemisphere.
Good catch!
However, it also means it would be difficult to Hide, unless DM rules Giant as stupid enough to not understand the effect is centered on you. I wouldn't bet on that.
Agreed it's a very valid approach though.


Hence why Absorb Elements in case of, but also why it's better imo to incite Giant to use melee attacks then use Shield: 25 AC to hit -not counting magic armor- at disadvantage, while OP is wearing the Armor that prevents critical hits to be safe: 25% chance.

Also, about surviving hits: OP should have around 80 HP, and can, as an action, restore 45 HP stat. Of course the fact it's "up to max HP" makes it difficult to use without waste, but still, its a great emergency tool.

----
More generally, I completely counted out other potential factors, but provided the place and time is set, and there is no Dispel/Detect Magic beforehand, the whole party could cooperate to buff him before he enters with Fly, Freedom of Movement, Longstrider (Cleric itself could store in a Ring held by someone else), upcast Aid (same), give him a Bardic Inspiration to help Hiding, buff him with False Life or Inspiring Leader, or store a Thunder Step.

Another thing that would really help here would be Blade Ward actually: since Heat Metal already puts disadvantage on weapon attacks, Dodge is redundant, while Blade Ward would help much in keeping concentration.
Sadly this is not a Cleric spell, and AFAIK you have no way of using it "from external source" (and would be kinda a waste of slot of Ring).

To be honest though, depending on who else is in party, and whether DM would allow Rings of Spell Storing or not (but I don't see any reason to forbid it) there are plenty of risky but effective tactics to be tried.
*Especially* if one of those is a (Divine Soul) Sorcerer with Extend Metamagic (if I'm not mistaken, such a spell would be stored as such in the Ring). ;)
On that note, not sure if RAW (probably not from intuition since it's not the same idea behind as metamagic ^^), and probably none in OP party anyways, but I may very well allow a Tempest Cleric to store a channeled maximum damage upcast thunder/lightning spell. :=)

But even otherwise: things could be done by stacking AOE effect that creates difficult terrain and Plant Growth, or you could cast Heat Metal then bet that you sustain concentration long enough to cast Rope Trick close to ground on next turn and get into it (no obligation to put it high), then wait for Giant to get weak then finish him with an instant spell ensuring damage even on fail such as Flame Strike.
Even Leomund's Tiny Hut paired with a long duration spell or long-range spells or plain weapon attacks could be enough on that note since, if I'm not mistaken, the time spent to cast "as a storage" first is irrelevant, any spell cast by using action to activate the Ring takes effect instantly.

----
On that note, what MrStabby said may very well the prime best course in that it does not depends on many external factors: spend month fighting to get level 10 as soon as possible, then continue leveling up while trying to get an effect from Divine Intervention (in which case I would personally allow such thing -on success ^^- as "grant me the resilience to stand strong during my upcoming fight with that faithless criminal" --> resistance to damage or "help me put him into obedience and turn him into a faithful servant -> disadvantage on WIS / CHA saves).
Even just getting to level 10 means access to level 6 spells (buff yourself with Feast, stack friend's Plant Growth and Grease with a Blade Barrier,

But considering that session is coming in a few hours, and that getting a few levels up has (imo) much more potential consequences on party and world development than just try and getting a few magic items... I strongly doubt the DM would accept.
If so though, I'll back MrStabby's idea.

[Unoriginal]

You have 1 month... 30 adventuring days.


30 days =/= 30 adventuring days.


The consummation of the marriage on the wedding night defies description, even if the medium sized cleric imbibed a potion of growth. :smalleek:

Actually, that's not THAT outlandish, even without the growth potion. At least it has the potential to be enjoyable, unlike reproductive sex between a male giant and a female medium humanoid.



Question: if a human drinks a potion of growth, and then someone casts an enlarge spell on that now Large Sized human, would the character go from medium to large to huge? if yes, that might make the honemoon's first night acceptable to the bride ... maybe ...

Pretty sure that those effects wouldn't stack.

[Citan]

30 days =/= 30 adventuring days.



Actually, that's not THAT outlandish, even without the growth potion. At least it has the potential to be enjoyable, unlike reproductive sex between a male giant and a female medium humanoid.



Pretty sure that those effects wouldn't stack.
Agreed, simply because AFAIR the potion is just a liquid "Enlarge/Reduce" spell with "enlarge side selected". Since effects of the same spell don't stack, whatever their respective source...

[KorvinStarmast]

Pretty sure that those effects wouldn't stack. Since they are coming from two different sources, I think they might.
EDIT:
Yeah, you are right, the DMG errata is what closes the deal on that (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/101537/22566). Thanks for getting my brain working.

[JackPhoenix]

Do not use Glyph of Warding. Even if it works, the giants could reasonably consider it cheating. And getting the whole tribe angry won't end well.

You don't stand much chance on your own, so your best bet are magic items.

Try to get Candle of Invocation dedicated to your (or allied, or worst case, hostile towards the giants) god. Summoning stuff instead of messing with the arena before the fight starts or bringing outside help should be legit. Try to convince the god to send you an angel (or other appropriate creature) to help you with the candle's Gate function.

Very risky (but hillarious if it works) option, depending on the rules of the duel, would be to use Amulet of the Planes. Get close to the giant, use the amulet, and try to FAIL the Int check: You and everyone within 15' of you gets transported randomly into other planes, with no save allowed. The giant doesn't have a way back, you do: just Banish yourself back where you came from, or you can keep playing with the Amulet until you succeed and get back where you want.

Both are Very Rare items, and while expensive, they should be in your price range.

[Unoriginal]

Very risky (but hillarious if it works) option, depending on the rules of the duel, would be to use Amulet of the Planes. Get close to the giant, use the amulet, and try to FAIL the Int check: You and everyone within 15' of you gets transported randomly into other planes, with no save allowed. The giant doesn't have a way back, you do: just Banish yourself back where you came from, or you can keep playing with the Amulet until you succeed and get back where you want.

Both are Very Rare items, and while expensive, they should be in your price range.

Probably the best plan so far, IMO.

[Citan]

Probably the best plan so far, IMO.
Agreed!!
Very crafty, surprising, elegant. :)

I don't even understand why it would be risky: unless DM decides one always just have to roll because of some (imo) convoluted and strange logic, I don't see any reason for him/her to forbid a character to fail a save on purpose. Especially if it's him casting.

And this is the quickest and surest way to permanently get rid of an annoying and potentially long-term conflicting character.

The only drawback I see though, which is not unsignificant, is that you basically deprive the giants from an entertaining, gory fight, in which you display proper overcoming strength.
Same as one other idea, they could view this as plain cheating (to be fair, same could be told of several ideas here, including half of mine ^^, especially the "curse and hide elsewhere" ones).
That aside, indeed, best plan.

[Unoriginal]

Agreed!!
Very crafty, surprising, elegant. :)

I don't even understand why it would be risky: unless DM decides one always just have to roll because of some (imo) convoluted and strange logic, I don't see any reason for him/her to forbid a character to fail a save on purpose. Especially if it's him casting.

And this is the quickest and surest way to permanently get rid of an annoying and potentially long-term conflicting character.

The only drawback I see though, which is not unsignificant, is that you basically deprive the giants from an entertaining, gory fight, in which you display proper overcoming strength.
Same as one other idea, they could view this as plain cheating (to be fair, same could be told of several ideas here, including half of mine ^^, especially the "curse and hide elsewhere" ones).
That aside, indeed, best plan.

Could always play the entertainer and go the "this is your last chance, Chief, give up or be destroyed" ultimatum to make the thing worth it for the audience.

The magic itself is basically a makeshift Hurl Through Hell except the guy doesn't come back. I'd say it look very impressive.

Now you can't just throw ALL your problems in a different plane, but this giant? Totally solve everything.

Of course, to be SURE any of your plans work, OP, you should get allies within the giants' ranks. People who would be advantaged if the current chief kicks the bucket, for example.

Just to make sure they don't turn back on their words to free the people the moment the chief is out of the picture.

[MrStabby]

Do not use Glyph of Warding
Very risky (but hillarious if it works) option, depending on the rules of the duel, would be to use Amulet of the Planes. Get close to the giant, use the amulet, and try to FAIL the Int check: You and everyone within 15' of you gets transported randomly into other planes, with no save allowed. The giant doesn't have a way back, you do: just Banish yourself back where you came from, or you can keep playing with the Amulet until you succeed and get back where you want.

Both are Very Rare items, and while expensive, they should be in your price range.

I am wondering if this would count as defeating him/her? The crowd neither sees the giant killed nor surrender and they are still out there somewhere. If "defeat" is forcing someone out of the arena Sumo style then you both left simultaneously. Still - calling it a draw is not a bad result.

[Unoriginal]

I am wondering if this would count as defeating him/her? The crowd neither sees the giant killed nor surrender and they are still out there somewhere. If "defeat" is forcing someone out of the arena Sumo style then you both left simultaneously. Still - calling it a draw is not a bad result.

There is a bright flash of magic, and then the chief is gone forever and the little guy reappear 6 seconds later. Looks like a victory for me.

If killing is required, well, Staff of Insects + flight + casting Dex save spells still work. It's just dangerous.


It's really too bad OP cannot defy the chief in a flyting contest, though.

[MrStabby]

There is a bright flash of magic, and then the chief is gone forever and the little guy reappear 6 seconds later. Looks like a victory for me.


It's really too bad OP cannot defy the chief in a flyting contest, though.

Giants are int 16 though - not certain they would fall for this. They might though. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the rules and the definition of victory - very much "check with your DM" space.

[Unoriginal]

Giants are int 16 though - not certain they would fall for this. They might though. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the rules and the definition of victory - very much "check with your DM" space.

That's why OP should make sure to have one or more important giants on his side to sway the public opinion once the chief is gone.


Also, interesting point: by accepting the PC's formal duel, the Giant Chief acknowledged the Life Cleric as part of the Ordning. Because Giant laws like formal fights only apply for those in the Ordning.

[Aaron Underhand]

I wonder if there's a way to use wall of force and multiple spiritual weapons....

[Unoriginal]

I wonder if there's a way to use wall of force and multiple spiritual weapons....

Wall of Force could work, but pretty sure you can't have multiple spiritual weapons.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Wall of Force could work, but pretty sure you can't have multiple spiritual weapons.

Nor could you use them even if you could--each takes a Bonus action to use, and you only have one.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't even understand why it would be risky: unless DM decides one always just have to roll because of some (imo) convoluted and strange logic, I don't see any reason for him/her to forbid a character to fail a save on purpose. Especially if it's him casting.

It's risky for multiple reasons: you'll have to get close to the giant first... depending on the circumstances, that may be dangerous. You and the giant end up close together in other plane...he may still kill you before you'll get the chance to get away (arguable, it could also be read as if you and the giant roll to see where you end up separately), and you'll have a chance to end up in an immediately deadly place... lake of fire on elemental plane, some very nasty place in the Abyss, someplace where you can't escape from... planes are dangerous. And there's the fact that the giant isn't actually provably dead, so the other giants may not aknowledge your victory. And the giant may find a way to get back to cause trouble later (which, IMO is a bonus for any GM).

I also suggest to set the destination to somewhere where you'll have an advantage: when you have 60% chance to end up in, say, Celestia, even if you miss your god's palace, that place is more friendly towards you than towards (presumably) evil giant.

Bonus points if you shout something like "Let [insert deity of choice] decide which of us is worthy!" before you both disappear. Even if the only deity involved is RNGesus.

[Derpaligtr]

The consummation of the marriage on the wedding night defies description, even if the medium sized cleric imbibed a potion of growth. :smalleek:


Hagrid from Harry Potter is a half giant... Hagrid's dad is a human.

You're welcome.

[Unoriginal]

Hagrid from Harry Potter is a half giant... Hagrid's dad is a human.

You're welcome.

HP's giants are bigger than D&D's, tbf.

[Derpaligtr]

HP's giants are bigger than D&D's, tbf.

I don't think that helps with the mental images.

[RSP]

Cube of Force could be a good item to acquire to help defenses while utilizing Spiritual Weapon/Guardian of Faith.

[xroads]

Would taking the giant out of the fight for a minute count as a victory condition? If so, spam "Banishment" and hope for the best.

[McSkrag]

Wait, you're level 9.

You could pray once each day, and ask for a Divine Intervention to sap the Giant Chief's physical might just before the duel.

With a month, you should be able to get it, mathematically speaking.

Along this line of thought...

I think RP and storytelling are your best bet.

OOC think about this impending battle as the climax to a movie think about what you can do to make it totally awesome.

If you come up with an epic story, everyone at the table wins.

Since this is highly DM dependent you should ask your DM about the idea and work with them to create the story. I suggest casually offering them their favorite drink as you ask.

As an idea, maybe you spend the whole month and all of the gold performing rituals in your god's honor and training to defeat this evil giant in your god's honor. Actually write up a the rituals and RP the hell out of the month leading up to the battle.

What you're trying for is a Divine Intervention and by weaving it into the story and working with your DM you can make sure it happens.

You could reasonably ask for your god to transform you into an avatar with the stats of a Deva or Planetar to fight the giant. Or maybe your god Gate's one in to fight along side you.

That would give you all, including your DM, a great story with an epic battle.

It's a Hail Mary but it could actually work.

[Aridon]

It's been errata'd, and with good reason.

I believe it was interpreted in Sage Advice in order to weaken it. It has not been errata'd to my knowledge.

The distinction is important. For example, my group doesn't accept Sage Advice as RAW, but we do accept errata as RAW.

[RSP]

I believe it was interpreted in Sage Advice in order to weaken it. It has not been errata'd to my knowledge.

The distinction is important. For example, my group doesn't accept Sage Advice as RAW, but we do accept errata as RAW.

Thanks for mentioning this. I didn’t see any errata nor a response from those who claimed it.

It’s an important distinction if it works RAW, vs what JNA claimed. RAW it’s a good 5th level spell; if it works as JNA thinks, it’s worthless outside of the very niche situation of casting it under disguise in a political/intrigue game to try and set someone up.

[Sigreid]

Any of the poisons in the DMG strong enough to give a storm giant a bad day?

Is there a sorcerer with subtle spell that can help?

Edit: oh, armor of invulnerability?

[Unoriginal]

Requiring 3 saves before the effect applies don't make the spell worthless or niche. It's just not a "I win" button.

Most long lasting spells allow one save per round for the duration. This one front-load three saves, but if they're failed, you're ****ed.


Any of the poisons in the DMG strong enough to give a storm giant a bad day?


Purple Worm Poison, maybe.

If used by an high-level rogue.

[RSP]

Requiring 3 saves before the effect applies don't make the spell worthless or niche. It's just not a "I win" button.

Most long lasting spells allow one save per round for the duration. This one front-load three saves, but if they're failed, you're ****ed.

Yes, it does. First off, it’s at least 3 Rounds and that’s after the action used to cast it. Any success makes it takes longer.

How long do combats usually take? Do you really think it’s worthwhile to use a 5th level spell, which is already all-or-nothing on an attack roll, then wait 3-6 Rounds to see if there’s an effect?

And since it’s delivered on an attack roll, you have to be in combat to use it. And the recipient will definitely know it’s you.

And it’s defeated by a 1st level Paladin (LoH) or anyone who can cast Cure Disease or Dispel Magic. And lots of creatures are flat out immune to it.

Why do you think it’s a good spell if it’s played your way?

[McSkrag]

I'm going to say it again, you should be thinking outside the box of spells, magic items, and mechanics. All of those ideas depend on unreliable probabilities and give you very long odds.

Your DM set up this situation and you bravely stepped forward. You should be rewarded for that.

I suggest you work with your DM on a story and RP based solution with the goal of creating an epic climactic battle.

You're essentially asking for Divine Intervention. And because you bravely stepped into this suicide mission of the DM's devising you should get it.

But the important thing is to involve and work with your DM on what form the Divine Intervention takes.

As a DM, I would love this idea.

That seems like it would be way more fun and memorable for everyone at the table.

[Cerric M.]

Another thought: what is the class makeup of the rest of your party/do you have any arcane caster friends? You could potentially find someone to cast Dream on the giant a few days in a row just before the fight, and try to prevent it from getting long rests. It's a wisdom save, which isn't ideal, but if you can get a few levels of exhaustion on it (and if your DM gives NPCs exhaustion levels), it might be an easier fight!

[WereRabbitz]

To quote James Bond Film..


"No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die"

- GoldFinger

[Mellack]

Losing the fight might not equal failing your goal. It is possible that the King could be so impressed by this little person being so courageous and self-sacrificing that he decides to free all the slaves anyway. That might not even require the character to actually die. If you were to bravely step forward and give a speech a la Braveheart, that might be all that is needed.

[Unoriginal]

Losing the fight might not equal failing your goal. It is possible that the King could be so impressed by this little person being so courageous and self-sacrificing that he decides to free all the slaves anyway. That might not even require the character to actually die. If you were to bravely step forward and give a speech a la Braveheart, that might be all that is needed.

The chief is a slaver who literally wants to **** one of the PCs to death.

I doubt he would care about self-sacrifice or noble gestures.

[Mellack]

The chief is a slaver who literally wants to **** one of the PCs to death.

I doubt he would care about self-sacrifice or noble gestures.

Storm Giants are listed as chaotic good. If this king is so far from that norm, this might be a good way to foster a revolution. The PC could be a focus to show how far the ruler has moved from the will of the people. (still like Braveheart)

[Unoriginal]

Storm Giants are listed as chaotic good. If this king is so far from that norm, this might be a good way to foster a revolution. The PC could be a focus to show how far the ruler has moved from the will of the people. (still like Braveheart)

This I can agree with.

[GlenSmash!]

Storm Giants are listed as chaotic good. If this king is so far from that norm, this might be a good way to foster a revolution. The PC could be a focus to show how far the ruler has moved from the will of the people. (still like Braveheart)

It does seem out of character for a Storm Giant.

Possible Plot hook by the DM? Or possible oversight?

[Unoriginal]

It does seem out of character for a Storm Giant.


That most Storm Giants are of an alignment doesn't mean there is none of the others.

[Derpaligtr]

Storm Giants are listed as chaotic good. If this king is so far from that norm, this might be a good way to foster a revolution. The PC could be a focus to show how far the ruler has moved from the will of the people. (still like Braveheart)

Better have enough pamphlets...

[BaconAwesome]

30 days =/= 30 adventuring days.

Narratively, what you *should* do under these circumstances is go on a side quest to find the amulet of such and such or rescue the chief's long believed dead sister/predecessor/whatever, or find a more powerful enemy to kick the crud out of this tribe, so I'd say spend 2 hours of day 1 thinking of ways to either win or avoid the fight, then cast commune to try to get some productive leads on side quests. With luck, this evening's game is all about the thirty days - the PC's increaingly desperate quest, visiting his family and mentor etc to make peace, and so on.

[Throne12]

Storm Giants are listed as chaotic good. If this king is so far from that norm, this might be a good way to foster a revolution. The PC could be a focus to show how far the ruler has moved from the will of the people. (still like Braveheart)

That may not be the lore in the DM's game. In my game I have a different lore for Gith. Are heavily used.

[BaconAwesome]

Hey OP - what ended up happening?

[Greywander]

Hey OP - what ended up happening?
If I had to guess, their next session was probably spent hashing out the preparations for the duel, and the duel itself would likely get pushed back to the following session.

In the game my sister and I are playing, we had a situation where we arranged a duel between a friendly NPC who was ex-thieves' guild and the current head of the thieves' guild, and we spent quite some time formulating a Xanatos Gambit (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit). This including having a heist going on at the same time that we could use as a distraction if things went South, as well as the possibility of dropping a Fog Cloud on the duel, paralyzing the guild boss, using Mold Earth to dig a shallow grave and dump him in, then use Disguise Self to take his appearance and fake losing the duel. Sadly, things went off without a hitch, so all that planning ended up more or less wasted.

But it can be fun, and time consuming, to plan out how to stab your enemies with Morton's Fork, repeatedly, until they die.

Still, I'd expect OP to at least give us an update. Don't leave us hanging!

[Caesar]

Long shot but... Can you get...

Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Giant Strength
Guantlet of Ogre Power

Giant’s Bane (Requires Attunement). You must be wearing a Belt of Giant Strength (any variety) and Gauntlets of Ogre Power to attune to this weapon. The attunement ends if you take off either of those items. While you are attuned to this weapon and holding it, your Strength score increases by 4 and can exceed 20, but not 30. When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made with this weapon against a giant, the giant must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or die.

The hammer also has 5 charges. While attuned to it, you can expend 1 charge and make a ranged weapon attack with the hammer, hurling it as if it had the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. If the attack hits, the hammer unleashes a thunderclap audible out to 300 feet. The target and every creature within 30 feet of it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or be Stunned until the end of your next turn. The hammer regains 1d4 + 1 expended charges daily at dawn.


****

You probably won't need to fight, the giant will probably give up. The hammer may be a long shot but the others could work... Then just make a fake hammer of Thunderbolts?

Designers: Let's make a magical weapon of giant's bane!! For killing giants!!!
*clapping*
Designers: Ooh, let's make all of its abilities key off a giant's best save!
*Clapping, yay great idea!*
Designers: Lets drink a bunch of bleach to celebrate!!!
*Hurray!*

[Derpaligtr]

Designers: Let's make a magical weapon of giant's bane!! For killing giants!!!
*clapping*
Designers: Ooh, let's make all of its abilities key off a giant's best save!
*Clapping, yay great idea!*
Designers: Lets drink a bunch of bleach to celebrate!!!
*Hurray!*

Save or die is rare in 5e. Quivering Palm comes to mind but many abilities go changed to save or suck.

So it makes sense.

But...

Cleric: Do you feel lucky, punk. *raises hammer to throw*. Well, do you?

The balls you would need to do that to a giant... Yeah, I think a giant who understood the situation would think real hard about it.

[saucerhead]

Designers: Let's make a magical weapon of giant's bane!! For killing giants!!!
*clapping*
Designers: Ooh, let's make all of its abilities key off a giant's best save!
*Clapping, yay great idea!*
Designers: Lets drink a bunch of bleach to celebrate!!!
*Hurray!*

Yeah, it's just a +1 weapon without extra damage versus giants, low chance of getting the vital critical hit, and the giant has a high chance of saving. The stacking strength bonuses do make for bigger hits, but it is not what you'd expect from a giant-bane. Potentially uses up all attunement slots too.
While a two handed +1 giant slayer does an extra 2d6 per hit and coupled with GWM feat cuts deep with zero attunement.
Go with a Dwarven thrower instead? Not sure, but I am curious to hear what the results of his session were.

[MoiMagnus]

It's been errata'd, and with good reason.


Not according to the last errata on the WotC site. Is there a more recent one than 1.22?

Well, technically, its not been errated, so RAW, contagion takes effect immediately and is OP. But RAI, it takes effect after 3 failed save.



Rules as Intended: Contagion takes effect after the three failed saves

The following Sage Advice and this Rules Answer article both say Contagion takes effect after the third failed save. Apparently, enough groups were playing correctly given the spell description that it simply didn't make it into the errata.

Crawford does say, if he could change it now, he would, as more groups seem to not be playing according to RAI.

RAW: The disease takes place immediately

The following line says on a hit.

Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.

The following line, from the next paragraph, also imply the disease has already been afflicted:

After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends.

If there was no disease, what would there be to recover from?

What may have happened

As noted by @SevenSidedDie:

Maybe the thinking is that having disease ≠ suffering overt effects of a disease, so the incubation time between contracting the disease (the hit) and showing symptoms is represented by three failed saves, and contracting the disease but fighting it off before showing symptoms is the three succeeded saves? It's a reading that seems non-obvious to me too, except in hindsight knowing the intended reading, and that's the only rationalisation I can think of for the RAW after learning of the intended meaning.

So they may have intended an incubation period for this disease. However, the spell does say "on a hit, you afflict [...] a disease of your choice" and listed choices do not mention an incubation time. As such, this is a justification you can present when deviating from RAW.

But the concept of incubation does explain why they would have worded it this way, and in my opinion, it's likely what they were thinking when they wrote the spell.


Link: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96890/does-the-contagion-spell-infect-immediately-on-a-melee-attack-hit for the original post

[Citan]

Well, technically, its not been errated, so RAW, contagion takes effect immediately and is OP. But RAI, it takes effect after 3 failed save.

Sorry mate, the whole point of the discussion here (which is just an after-bubble of dedicated threads lurking in forum's archives) is that RAW could as easily be understood either way.

Personally, me and my core playing group never understood in any other way than "takes effect after 3rd save" until I stumbled upon the discussions on GiTP. :)
Seemed the most logical to us and an acceptable, although plenty annoying, drawback to the power of the effect on success. We never saw it as a combat spell*, rather as a world-influencial spell to manipulate people one way or another.

* Pro-tip: there is Bestow Curse for that: single WIS save and then off you go, and if upcast as a 5th level, it's a non-concentration 8 hours duration, largely enough for combat purpose (or if you really want longer duration, you can get double with Extend from Sorcerer or 24h as 7th level). Plus the absence of fluff seems to hint as a non-flashy spell, so Subtle could be paired with it too for undetectable manipulation of people).
In fact, it's because Bestow Curse exists that we never saw Contagion as imposing negative debuff right when casting. ^^


I agree though that the "disease that can be cured any ways" makes it more situational than I'd like.

My guess is that they wanted to provide a spell with long-lasting effects but were afraid it would be too OP if magical disease.
I would have loved that they provide a "dual-effect" spell such as they made for Plant Growth:
- cast as an action, choose an effect that applies immediately just for one turn (otherwise little point to take that spell over a Bestow Curse apart that Druid don't get that spell).
- cast with a minute concentration, creates a magical disease (spell as RAI but needs Lesser/Greater Restoration or Dispel Magic to remove).

[Bloodcloud]

What are your friends? Cause, if you have a warlock with Dream (lvl 5 so within reach), or even just a wizard who could copy it, you could significantly weaken him prior to the fight...

[Sigreid]

This reminds me a bit of years ago when a caster character of mine was challanged to a duel (joust) by a knight. Unfortunately, I was at the time travelling with a small army of thieves and assassins I had befriended by breaking them out of prison. Said knight didn't even make it half way down the list...none of the knights retinue opted to complain.

[MoiMagnus]

Sorry mate, the whole point of the discussion here (which is just an after-bubble of dedicated threads lurking in forum's archives) is that RAW could as easily be understood either way.

Sorry, what I wanted to emphasize was that it was not errated (not go back to the debate on what the spell mean. RAI is quite clear about it and I'm fine with it).

And fun fact, no one in my group at the time read it as RAI, and they all read it as OP, and we didn't even get the idea that it would be possible to interpret it differently (and I was unlucky with my quick googling, so our interpretation was confirmed). We nerfed the spell in an inelegant way (banning the Con use) and played with it until the end of the campaign.

[GlenSmash!]

Yeah, it's just a +1 weapon without extra damage versus giants, low chance of getting the vital critical hit, and the giant has a high chance of saving. The stacking strength bonuses do make for bigger hits, but it is not what you'd expect from a giant-bane. Potentially uses up all attunement slots too.
While a two handed +1 giant slayer does an extra 2d6 per hit and coupled with GWM feat cuts deep with zero attunement.
Go with a Dwarven thrower instead? Not sure, but I am curious to hear what the results of his session were.

The +4 Strength bonus essentially turns it into a +3 Weapon. And while you must be wearing the Belt and Gauntlets, it does not say you must be attuned to them.

But, I do prefer the Dwarven Thrower. Especially since it returns to your hand when you throw it.

[RSP]

Personally, me and my core playing group never understood in any other way than "takes effect after 3rd save" until I stumbled upon the discussions on GiTP. :)
...We never saw it as a combat spell*, rather as a world-influencial spell to manipulate people one way or another.


How is a spell that requires an attack roll anything other than combat only? You literally cannot cast it without being in/starting combat, RAW.

[Citan]

How is a spell that requires an attack roll anything other than combat only? You literally cannot cast it without being in/starting combat, RAW.
I understand what you mean, and that is a very pertinent remark, but I don't see it as contradicting though.

The few times players used it, it was by surprise, so while indeed it triggered the whole half-book of combat rules coming live, in theory, in practice it didn't matter any, because they prepared it well enough that the target had no chance. So it wasn't "a combat" per se, although I made roll Initiative because that target had the potential to fend for itself. But honestly I could have waived it after it failed a Blindness save then a grapple save made by allies of Curser in the same surprise round, by that time he had little chance to escape its fate. ^^

One other time, it was a solo Sorcerer using Subtle Bestow Curse, in a crowd, using a familiar (Ritual Caster ;)), against a target that was not at all a caster, or even knowledgeable in magic. It realized there was something strange going on with the rat so catched it and killed it but failed Perception and Investigation checks that could have maybe allowed it to identify the perpetrator.
On the other hand, the Sorcerer bailed stealthily as soon as he realized the assault failed.
Why in the world would I draw all the Initiative / turn / blablabla for basically just "because a character made an attack roll"?
It's making everyone lose several minutes for no reason.

So, no, its not a "combat spell" in my words...
- Like Haste isn't either even though most people use it for combat purposes...
- Nor Hex, which although it takes effect without any save or attack roll, would certainly raise hostility and possibly trigger a fight is used openly.
- Nor even a Sleet Storm, although it definitely creates hostile effects...
Because I would qualify as a combat spell *only* those that definitely have no use (or far too situational to be quoted) outside combat. Like smite spells, or most direct-damage spells. :)

As the opposite brother of "even just a few words may trigger a fight",
making a roll, even an attack roll does not require initiating a fight automatically and systematically" imo. There should always be a reason for lifting the heavyweight, if only because it's a bore, light for me, heavy for my players (the less we play "tactical by the rules" the better for them ;)).

[RSP]

I understand what you mean, and that is a very pertinent remark, but I don't see it as contradicting though.

The few times players used it...

So, no, its not a "combat spell" in my words...


I understand your take on it, but what the spell does initiates combat. The argument of “I houserule it doesn’t need to start combat so it can be more effective,” doesn’t make it an effective spell, RAW (assuming you agree with the no initial effect).

Further, by your own experiences, it seems like you proved my point on its effectiveness: of the two times, both times a very specific circumstance needed to happen, including surprise, one time it failed on the attack roll, and the other, in addition to surprise, it involved the Blindness spell and other allies holding the target down before it was even cast. At that point, why are you wasting a 5th level slot? You can obviously just kill them then, no? If your plan wasn’t to kill them, then again, great you still only may have diseased them, which is easily countered even if the saves are failed: again, why waste that spell slot?

I only see this as “if you can completely dictate the situation in which it’s used, it’s a waste of a fifth level slot.” (Again, assuming it does work right away, which I disagree with).

[Citan]

I understand your take on it, but what the spell does initiates combat. The argument of “I houserule it doesn’t need to start combat so it can be more effective,” doesn’t make it an effective spell, RAW (assuming you agree with the no initial effect).

Further, by your own experiences, it seems like you proved my point on its effectiveness: of the two times, both times a very specific circumstance needed to happen, including surprise, one time it failed on the attack roll, and the other, in addition to surprise, it involved the Blindness spell and other allies holding the target down before it was even cast. At that point, why are you wasting a 5th level slot? You can obviously just kill them then, no? If your plan wasn’t to kill them, then again, great you still only may have diseased them, which is easily countered even if the saves are failed: again, why waste that spell slot?

I only see this as “if you can completely dictate the situation in which it’s used, it’s a waste of a fifth level slot.” (Again, assuming it does work right away, which I disagree with).
Funny how you decided to pick only one of the two representative examples I gave.
Because the other one stressed how it can be worth. Basically just stack Subtle on Contagion, and it's a great out-of-combat spell.
And I do NOT consider it takes effect immediately. I'm completely on the "takes 3 turns" side".

That's why it's situational, because you make a visibly hostile attempt. Subtle completely circumvents that.
And you didn't explain how an attack roll would automatically make a combat start. It's not a houserule at all.
It's just a plain application of the rules. If neither side wants to act, there is no need for a fight. Nothing more.
That was exactly the case in my second example: the creature targeted failed to identify the origin of the threat (barring the rat it killed), while the caster immediately slipped away after casting and seeing it failed. What point would be rolling Initiative just to say "1. Caster Dashes away" 2. NPC looks around"?

Contagion does not describe the spell as producing an immediately, visible effect until all three failed saves. Barring the "visible casting" problem (hence the Subtle), you could very wel try and pass this off as an accident (like, having a friend start a fight with you, then you try and make disguised attack by bumping into the creature "because you lost balance") or as described use a familiar to prevent any backtracking to you. There is simply no fight to be held.

It's a great way to start world manipulation without you requiring to be besides your victim at all times: for example, you have been tasked to ensure a diplomat will fail his negotiations to be held in a few weeks in a neighbouring region: Suggestion won't cut it, not long enough, and you can't afford to spend days following him to pick the right time. Even Bestow Curse, if available, may not last long enough (or you just don't have the level to upcast it enough.

[RSP]

Funny how you decided to pick only one of the two representative examples I gave.
Because the other one stressed how it can be worth. Basically just stack Subtle on Contagion, and it's a great out-of-combat spell.
And I do NOT consider it takes effect immediately. I'm completely on the "takes 3 turns" side"...


I didn’t ignore the second example: I acknowledged you said it failed. A 5th level spell shouldn’t require a successful all-or-nothing attack, a Sorc that uses Subtle spell*, a Familiar, the ability to just flee combat, and surprise, to maybe work. (*you’re aware Subtle doesn’t remove the requirement for the attack roll, correct?) Keep in mind, a Cleric gets neither metamagic nor familiars, yet they have Contagion.

As for the need to start combat when an attack is made, that’s pretty basic to the rules:

“Combat, the focus of chapter 9, involves characters and other creatures swinging weapons, casting spells, maneuvering for position, and so on—all in an effort
to defeat their opponents, whether that means killing every enemy, taking captives, or forcing a rout.”

Casting spells in an effort to defeat an opponent, that’s what you described in your example, right?

“This chapter provides the rules you need for your characters and monsters to engage in combat, whether it is a brief skirmish or an extended conflict in a dungeon or on a field of battle.”

You described “a brief skirmish;” a rat tried to attack and then got killed for their effort. This falls under combat.

“A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides...”

I think it’s pretty basic that making an attack is combat, RAW.

Now on to the spell:

“Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.”

So when you hit, the disease takes effect (definition of “afflict”: “cause (something unpleasant or painful) to be suffered by someone or something.”). I’m not sure how you can read that to be “oh it doesn’t take effect right away.”

All that’s left is choosing the disease from those listed.

Again, I’m not sure what’s unclear about that wording.

[Citan]

I think we misunderstood from the start.
You basically say (from what I understand ;))...
"Contagion is only a combat spell because using it provokes a fight by RAW".
"And because of that and its effect taking 3 full rounds at best, it's a useless spell".

I'm saying,
"No, it's not only a combat spell, since there are several ways to mask or go around the aroused hostility. And per its effects it's actually best used outside of combat".

Also adding: "it's not because an attack roll *can* trigger a fight, that I as a DM should *always* consider a fight is actually starting and roll Initiative and everything."
For Contagion, if neither the caster nor the target wishes (or has a mean) to pursue hostile behaviour one way or another, it's a plain, big waste of time."

Like if you, as a player, threw a fist to a drunkard in a bar simply because he became too annoying and you didn't consider him as potentially interesting (just an NPC that was acting like a jerk but had the hidden potential of giving some information depending on how you reacted):
- you just wanted to persuade him to go away by hurting him just enough to give message "go away or you'll get more".
- he's just a regular guy that does not like being hurt nor has (a priori) any way to threaten you.
Switching to "rules-lawyered encounter management" would be an, utter, complete waste of time for *everyone*. Yet you did certainly take an hostile action, by making an attack that dealt some damage (with a roll for damage and with possibly a roll for attack, if only for the slight chance of you failing miserably because of a 1, because otherwise, a PC throwing a punch at a *regular AND drunk* guy should just make it connect imo. Or the chance of bringing a critical and outright putting him down, with the potential consequence as seeing the whole bar turning hostile XD).
So per your logic, I should roll Initiative then pass turns just to hear you saying something like "I stare at him and say 'Now go or I'll pull another'" then me "NPC uses up its turn to Dash away and out of the bar".

Even though, considering you clearly stated your action and intent, and I know the NPC's means/values/behaviours, I knew from the start what the outcome would be, an outcome that did not raise any further questions or challenge.

On the same topic, it's the exact same logic that may make me decide, as a DM, that a creature decides to engage in harming action (and actually triggering a proper fight this time) while it was not hostile when you encountered it and all you did was talk to it. Because talking too can *definitely* convey hostility, either per choice of words or intonation or the like, whether or not you make a check in relation to that.

How and when a fight starts is absolutely not tied to player's actions (or NPC's actions). Some things have definitely a high chance of leading to a fight, but there is no absolute.

--
Per your critics on mistranslation between Cleric and Sorcerer.
- Find Familiar is a non-argument imo. Familiars are helpful in a large variety of ways, and you can get them sure-thing along many other goodies with Ritual Caster feat. Not saying it's worth taking only for Contagion of course. Rather that if you have Find Familiar, it's easy enough to make Contagion work.
And it also means you don't need Subtle, unless you try this with only you and target alone in a big, wide and empty environment.
Make it in the classic "guy in a crowded bar" trope: if it's the familiar delivering it, the only way for target to know it was you would be to have noticed you while you cast it (hence the crowded bar to cover sound and movements, or Warcaster for the latter, which is one of the few feats most kind of Clerics are interested into) or afterwards trying something with the rat (like instead of killing it, acting like you didn't notice anything and try to see if it goes towards someone in particular) or more in general (trying a check to see if anyone around is acting strange).

- Subtle spell is a valid point, but it's not required for Contagion to be used either. It just makes it more practical. As would be distant for that matter.
And about multiclassing, Bard have it easy dual-classing into Sorcerer, and can grab the spell through Magic Secrets.

- Neither Subtle nor Find Familiar? You may try a brazen tactic: convince your target that you are directly channeling your deity's wrath against it through your punch/smack/hand imposition and that it's only the lightest punishment, while any hostile action taken in return would mean a much, much darker divine punishment on it.
It's an obviously very YMMV thing here. But can certainly work. :)
(One of my players used something very similar to make a whole village believe he was an actual incarnation of a god, then proceeded to try and expand his power for self-interest. Did not end that well though, acting in an Evil way while pretending to be Good in an all-Good party. ^^)

- "Taking effect": my bad here, unwise choice of words: I was not speaking of "effect" as in "effect pertaining use of Detect Magic / Dispel Magic", effect as in "what actually happens before/after failed saves that can be perceived 'in-world'/'in-character'".
Because, you can notice that *nothing* is described as any perceptible effect before the saves are failed, while *very perceptible* effects are described afterwards.
Therefore, it's exactly the same problem (of absence thereof) as with Hex.
Either DM considers that as soon as a creature is/has been under the effect ("mechanically") of a spell whether it fails or succeed the save, it is aware of this fact. Then indeed, Contagion is screwed (as most spells for that matter, including Hex but also Suggestion, Polymorph, Detect Toughts etc).
OR DM takes the logical approach of "since WoTC went precise in some spells to say creature is aware of it, it means that, by default, unless you can perceive naturally the spell effect (such as a Fireball ^^) (or the casting of course) you are not aware there was something attempted against you.

And then Contagion is golden, provided you don't just openly try it without any kind of deception/dissimulation or trick like illustrated above.

To be clear, I don't pretend Contagion is a *great* spell that should always be taken and used. Far from it. I'm just saying it's much more potent and potentially useful than most people around pretend it to be.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

Just because you're infected by a disease doesn't mean you show symptoms. Incubation period for Contagion diseases lasts until you fail 3 saves before the disease hits you with full strength.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm not totally caught up. Is sneaking into the arena and filling it with Explosive Runes that trigger when the king is in range out of the question?

[RSP]

Just because you're infected by a disease doesn't mean you show symptoms. Incubation period for Contagion diseases lasts until you fail 3 saves before the disease hits you with full strength.

Show me the rule that says that; nowhere in the spell description does it say “incubation period.” What it says is “On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.” The “one’s below” explain their effects.

[RSP]

I think we misunderstood from the start.
You basically say (from what I understand ;))...
"Contagion is only a combat spell because using it provokes a fight by RAW".
"And because of that and its effect taking 3 full rounds at best, it's a useless spell".

Well I go with the RAW, that it doesn’t take the failed saves to take effect, but if you play that way, it becomes a useless spell. RAW, it’s a good 5th level spell.

For our discussion, I’ll respond from the point of view that the spell works as you think it should.



I'm saying,
"No, it's not only a combat spell, since there are several ways to mask or go around the aroused hostility. And per its effects it's actually best used outside of combat". ...

You certainly don’t need to play out the combat but the combat happens and the target is aware of the attack per RAW. But, yeah, if there’s no reason to play it out, don’t play it out.



Per your critics on mistranslation between Cleric and Sorcerer....Find Familiar...

Find Familiar is a fine spell. But again, a 5th level spell, that’s already an all-or-nothing hit-or-miss, and then allows two failures on savings throws so long as three are made, and requires a feat, would still be only good in very niche situations. Also, is FF even a Sorc Spell?

Also keep in mind, any character who you do all this set up to target, that’s a threat to level 9+ characters, is more likely than not going to have the opportunity to remove the effects.



- Subtle spell is a valid point, but it's not required for Contagion to be used either. It just makes it more practical. As would be distant for that matter.
And about multiclassing, Bard have it easy dual-classing into Sorcerer, and can grab the spell through Magic Secrets.

Same as above, plus, you’re now adding a MS selection and/or a multiclass on top of the feat, spell slot, perfect situation, etc.



- Neither Subtle nor Find Familiar? You may try a brazen tactic: convince your target that you are directly channeling your deity's wrath against it through your punch/smack/hand imposition and that it's only the lightest punishment, while any hostile action taken in return would mean a much, much darker divine punishment on it.

Well, again, we’re talking about opponents of level 9+ characters. If you run them as such that they’re just out in the open; willing to not care about a PC running up to them, casting a spell and then attacking them; and allowing that PC to take time to argue that his attack was just a manifestation of divine punishment; well then sure. But you also could have done an awful lot of things to that “threat” if they allow you to plan your ambush as such, and give you the chance to explain yourself after.

Also, again, they probably just go to the local temple to get the disease cured.



- "Taking effect": my bad here, unwise choice of words: I was not speaking of "effect" as in "effect pertaining use of Detect Magic / Dispel Magic", effect as in "what actually happens before/after failed saves that can be perceived 'in-world'/'in-character'".
Because, you can notice that *nothing* is described as any perceptible effect before the saves are failed, while *very perceptible* effects are described afterwards.

I’m not sure what you mean here. I’m not talking about noticing the effects. In how you think it should work, there wouldn’t be a noticeable effect unless all the saves fail and the disease takes hold.

I was stating the RAW: it takes effect when you succeed on the attack roll (“On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.”). Once the target is afflicted with the disease, it has the disease and the effects of the disease occur. That, I would imagine would be noticeable.

[EvilAnagram]

Show me the rule that says that; nowhere in the spell description does it say “incubation period.” What it says is “On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.” The “one’s below” explain their effects.

The case law of Contagion has been settled (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016) by Justice Crawford. If you are a sovereign netizen who does not accept the authority of the WotCOTUS, then rule as you will, but it is otherwise settled as taking effect after failing three saves.

[EvilAnagram]

Okay, I have a playbook.

PREPARATION
Cast Hallow in the Colosseum, specifying that Giants in the area will suffer from Fear. There is no saving throw, he will just have the Frightened condition in the Colosseum. This will be the best 1,000 gold you spend.
Gain resistance to Lightning damage. Ring of Lightning Resistance, Potion of Resist Lightning, whatever. Get it. This will run you ~5,000-10,000 gold.
Buy a Potion of Heroism for ~5,000-10,000 gold.
Buy a Wand of Fireballs if at all possible. Attune to it. ~20,000 gold.
If you can, cast Glyph of Warding to place explosive runes throughout the arena, triggering when the King crosses them. 200-2,000 gold.
Cast Divination seven days beforehand and ask if the giant has any weaknesses.
Potions of as much healing as possible.
Day of the Battle
Cast Aid at 4th level, also Death Ward.
Drink your Potion of Heroism and Potion of Lightning Resistance. The Heroism gives you temp HP and lets you add 1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws.
Battle
Hallow should keep him Frightened.
Cast Sacred Flame and Spiritual Weapon at fourth level to start out.
Next turn, cast Guardian of Faith near him and attack with the spiritual weapon.
For the remainder, cast Fireball via the wand, attack with the spiritual weapon. Heal when necessary, upcasting freely. Drinking a potion of x healing and casting Healing Word for spike heals. Sacred Flame and Healing Word or Cure Wounds and Spiritual Weapon when you need to patch up.

[RSP]

The case law of Contagion has been settled (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016) by Justice Crawford. If you are a sovereign netizen who does not accept the authority of the WotCOTUS, then rule as you will, but it is otherwise settled as taking effect after failing three saves.

So then you agree it’s not RAW.

[MoiMagnus]

So then you agree it’s not RAW.

More precisely:

There is two interpretation of Contagion:
1) Takes effect immediately.
2) Takes effect after 3 turns.

The second is RAI. And a huge majority of initial playtest tables understood the second as RAW.
However, for a big part of the community, the first interpretation was RAW, which the designer didn't realize when doing the last errata.
Designer were assuming that almost everyone was playing with the second as RAW.
A designer even said on twiter that if they had knew so much player were considering RAW was the first, they would have errated it.

I don't really understand why they chose not to make a new errata. But official translation of the game (at least in my language) chose formulation less ambiguous that support the RAW/RAI interpretation.

[RSP]

More precisely:

There is two interpretation of Contagion:
1) Takes effect immediately.
2) Takes effect after 3 turns.

The second is RAI. And a huge majority of initial playtest tables understood the second as RAW.
However, for a big part of the community, the first interpretation was RAW, which the designer didn't realize when doing the last errata.
Designer were assuming that almost everyone was playing with the second as RAW.
A designer even said on twiter that if they had knew so much player were considering RAW was the first, they would have errated it.

I don't really understand why they chose not to make a new errata. But official translation of the game (at least in my language) chose formulation less ambiguous that support the RAW/RAI interpretation.

Actually, your timeline is a little off. There’s a tweet by JC in 2015 regarding this. There have been, I believe, two erratas since then in which they haven’t taken this up, which leads me to believe they don’t care to “fix” it, possibly because JC changed his mind, possibly because it’s a horrible spell if you play it that way.

[BurgerBeast]

Sorry mate, the whole point of the discussion here (which is just an after-bubble of dedicated threads lurking in forum's archives) is that RAW could as easily be understood either way.

But it can’t. RAW the effect begins on a hit. Period.

How easily one can misunderstand it is a separate point, and of little relevance.


More precisely:

There is two interpretation of Contagion:
1) Takes effect immediately.
2) Takes effect after 3 turns.

The second is RAI. And a huge majority of initial playtest tables understood the second as RAW.

If, by “there is (sic) two interpretation (sic),” you mean “there are two different ways in which people understand the spell to work,” then sure.

However, if, by “there is (sic) two interpretation (sic),” you mean “there are two different ways in which the spell can be correctly read,” then you’re wrong.

Interpretation 2 is flat out wrong. Rsp has the right of it.

The spell says what it says, and it’s unambiguous. RAW, contagion takes effect on a hit.

One of the things that plagues discussions about RAW/RAI is the failure to distinguish between (1) cases of genuine ambiguity in the RAW, which can be interpreted in multiple ways, and lead to legitimate RAI discussions, and (2) cases where there is no ambiguity in the RAW, but it is misread by people who insist that they are not misreading it. These are not legitimate RAI cases. They’re just a failure to understand what’s written.

This gets compounded by advice given by designers, because there are two ways to understand that advice, but both are lazily referred to as RAI, and that can lead to further misunderstandings.

First, a designer can explain the intended reading of an ambiguous written rule.

Second, the designer can explain the intended rule where a non-ambiguous written rule was incorrectly written.

This distinction is important. Sometimes JC gives his opinion on how to “interpret” the ambiguous RAW. Other times, he gives how the non-ambiguous RAW were “intended” to be written.

Errata, where it occurs, is designed to rectify situation (2). This is because the designers acknowledge that the RAW do, in fact, convey a different meaning that what was intended. This makes errata necessary. However, Errata is not necessary to deal with situation (1), because the RAW still say what was intended.

Even when people say that JC provides “clarification,” this is imprecise. Both (1) and (2) can be considered clarifications, but they are very different things.

This gets even further complicated because the designers can make mistakes when giving advice. Then the question of what the designer was trying to do (i.e. case 1 or case 2) can become important when discussing specific cases. This fact can be blamed for some of the lengthier debates on this forum.
RAW, the contagion saving throws are a bit like the saves made while dying. You must succeed on three to kick the disease, or you must fail three for the disease to take hold. This takes a maximum of five rounds (not three) to resolve (because it takes three successes or failures, so it’s a best-of-5 scenario). For the 3-5 rounds it takes to determine whether the disease lingers, the target is affected by the disease and the disease can be treated.

[Citan]

But it can’t. RAW the effect begins on a hit. Period.

How easily one can misunderstand it is a separate point, and of little relevance.


.
You know, you really should properly read what people say and actually try to understand what they wrote before jumping in with "guns blazing" absolute truth.
Because you are actually very wrong on that. :)

We shifted discussion with Rsp29a because I stressed that I used "effect" in a different meaning in my post.
Which brought an entirely different argument.

While on the mechanical discussion, people argued whether by RAW target...
1. Immediately started suffering the chosen effect among those described after, with everything else in the spell just saying basically "affected creature has a chance to end disease IF it manages to roll 3 successful saving throws BEFORE it gets 3 failed ones.

Which means that in the worst of worst case, you still have a guarantee to afflict the effects on three consecutive turns, making this spell a very powerful one.

2. Makes the saving throws, but only actually suffers the chosen effect ONLY IF the third fail comes before the third success.
Which means that in the best case, you need to wait three turns before enjoying the ROI, making it a bit awkward to use directly in a fight.
Which means that in the worst of worst case, you wasted a 5th level slot for nothing. To be fair, such risk comes as a standard for 90% of offensive spells.

---
And indeed, the way the spell is worded makes both understanding equally legitimate.
Because of the two contradicting (or at least of ambiguous interaction) sentences...
"On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below." (pushes the "afflicts immediately").
"After failing three of these Saving Throws, the disease's effects last for the Duration, and the creature stops making these saves."
Basically it's a matter of whether this "saving throws" time represents just the time for magic to impregnate enough for the disease to last, or if it's also a required incubation time as someone else said.

As I said, I always went with the second one until I bumped on discussion about Contagion in an older topic. It made me reread carefully the spell. And I understood why and how the other one was equally arguable.
That is why there was a twitter ruling to clarify RAI.

[RSP]

...Which means that in the worst of worst case, you wasted a 5th level slot for nothing. To be fair, such risk comes as a standard for 90% of offensive spells.

---
And indeed, the way the spell is worded makes both understanding equally legitimate.
Because of the two contradicting (or at least of ambiguous interaction) sentences...
"On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below." (pushes the "afflicts immediately").
"After failing three of these Saving Throws, the disease's effects last for the Duration, and the creature stops making these saves."
Basically it's a matter of whether this "saving throws" time represents just the time for magic to impregnate enough for the disease to last, or if it's also a required incubation time as someone else said. emphasis mine

Except those statements are neither ambiguous nor contradictory.

“On a hit, you afflict the creature...” nothing ambiguous here.

“After failing three of these Saving Throws, the disease's effects last for the Duration, and the creature stops making these saves." again, nothing ambiguous here. It’s straightforward: after failing three of the saves, the target is effected for the duration and no more saves need be rolled. This statement doesn’t contradict the prior one at all.

Also, comparing requiring a successful attack roll and 3 failed saves in order to take effect with being comparable to 90% of “offensive spells” is just flat out wrong.

[Citan]

emphasis mine

Except those statements are neither ambiguous nor contradictory.

“On a hit, you afflict the creature...” nothing ambiguous here.

“After failing three of these Saving Throws, the disease's effects last for the Duration, and the creature stops making these saves." again, nothing ambiguous here. It’s straightforward: after failing three of the saves, the target is effected for the duration and no more saves need be rolled. This statement doesn’t contradict the prior one at all.

Also, comparing requiring a successful attack roll and 3 failed saves in order to take effect with being comparable to 90% of “offensive spells” is just flat out wrong.
Sorry, but your post does not bring anything.
You didn't get the matter, like the previous poster.
Worse, you contradict yourself since you told the exact opposite thing a few posts ago. Confer this part...


I was stating the RAW: it takes effect when you succeed on the attack roll (“On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.”). Once the target is afflicted with the disease, it has the disease and the effects of the disease occur. That, I would imagine would be noticeable.

And that's illustrating the whole case really.

People have divided on whether the debuff affects immediately, with a chance for target to make the spell end early by making three saves.
Or whether the debuffs only starts after the third failed save.

Crawford intervened to say "second interpretation". One is always free to rule differently in own game.
I'm glad for you that you were sure of your opinion, but that does not change the fact it's one of the few features that divided community more or less in equally sized groups. Which is a clear sign of "definitive ambiguity".
Like it or not, that's the hard fact.

You didn't get my other point either, which just proves you didn't really try.
Polymorph? Successful save = wasted slot.
Banishment? Same.
Disintegrate? Same.
Bestow Curse? Same.
Etc.

I agree that 90% was pushing it because, hopefully, a majority of direct damage spells at least provide half damage. And some of the class exclusive spells ought to never be a complete waste of slots because either at least dealing damage (Paladin / Ranger spells) or being large enough AOE to affect at least *some* creatures (like Spirit Guardians). On another hand those spells usually require one more condition to take effect (landing an attack, moving into close range etc).

But at least 50% of all spells are "save or suck" both ways.
Yet people happily try it, with more or less metagaming/preparating/party help to improve their chance, because on a success their effects are really powerful.

And that is the main problem with Contagion: with the first interpretation, it was imbalanced, because it was basically "three full rounds where everyone can make a shot at debuff with vastly improved chances".
Besides Hex that only affects checks, and Crown of Madness which has too serious constraints otherwise to make the "first round guaranteed" too powerful, none, NONE of the debuff spells directly targeting creatures (IIRC, feel free to quote any I missed) don't give a save on turn's cast.
So, considering the whole design pattern of 5e, it's obviously the second interpretation that is in line with everything else, because overall it's still "just" a 5th level spell.

[BurgerBeast]

You know, you really should properly read what people say and actually try to understand what they wrote before jumping in with "guns blazing" absolute truth.
Because you are actually very wrong on that. :)

Pot... kettle. Kettle... pot.


2. Makes the saving throws, but only actually suffers the chosen effect ONLY IF the third fail comes before the third success.
Which means that in the best case, you need to wait three turns before enjoying the ROI, making it a bit awkward to use directly in a fight.
Which means that in the worst of worst case, you wasted a 5th level slot for nothing. To be fair, such risk comes as a standard for 90% of offensive spells.

There is no way that this reading is justified.


And indeed, the way the spell is worded makes both understanding equally legitimate.

This is the problem, as Rsp points out. They are not equally legitimate. The second reading is not legitimate. Not in the least.


As I said, I always went with the second one until I bumped on discussion about Contagion in an older topic. It made me reread carefully the spell. And I understood why and how the other one was equally arguable.

No, you don't understand. Everything I said above still applies. The second way is and always was illegitimate.


That is why there was a twitter ruling to clarify RAI.

See the spoiler in my above post. Also, tweets are not rulings.


Sorry, but your post does not bring anything.
You didn't get the matter, like the previous poster.
Worse, you contradict yourself since you told the exact opposite thing a few posts ago. Confer this part...

It is clear that Rsp understands what you've said, as do I. The evidence is in our responses.

The reason that you say Rsp's post "does not bring anything" is because it says the same thing he and I originally said, which happens to still be correct. Your complete failure to address our point is why it is clear that you don't understand what we are saying.


And that's illustrating the whole case really.

No kidding. It's not rocket science.


Crawford intervened to say "second interpretation". One is always free to rule differently in own game.

And Crawford makes mistakes, like everyone else. Particularly on twitter.


I'm glad for you that you were sure of your opinion, but that does not change the fact it's one of the few features that divided community more or less in equally sized groups. Which is a clear sign of "definitive ambiguity".

Like it or not, that's the hard fact.

Which one, genius? You referred to two different things. The "opinion" about whether the second explanation is valid or not, and the "fact" that the community was divided. You can't even keep that straight. (And proper use of the English language suggests you are referring to the divided opinion, which is not in dispute.)

The second explanation is absolutely wrong as a matter of fact.

The fact that the community was divided settles nothing. The question is whether the text is ambiguous or not. You say it is. I say it is not. To settle this, we look at the text. Looking at the text, you're wrong. That's why Rsp keeps pointing back to the text. You, on the other hand, keep pointing to a divided community and to what Crawford had to say. Neither of us is disputing a divide in the community or what Crawford said. We are simply saying that the text says is clear. The disease takes effect on a hit. You read the text incorrectly. Stop obfuscating and let's get to the point: the text.


And that is the main problem with Contagion: with the first interpretation, it was imbalanced, because it was basically "three full rounds where everyone can make a shot at debuff with vastly improved chances".

This is the real problem. You actually know that you're wrong about the so-called second explanation. It says exactly what Rsp and I say it does. The problem is that you, and probably your group, went beyond what it says and tried to figure out if it was an error or not. Your conclusion about this (that it must have been an error) is what caused you to then ascribe your interpretation to it. But you know that it doesn't say anything remotely justifying it. You just think that if it says what it says, that shouldn't be right. Sorry. You're wrong.

That's you using your interpretation to bias your reading of a straightforward description.


So, considering the whole design pattern of 5e, it's obviously the second interpretation that is in line with everything else, because overall it's still "just" a 5th level spell.

And there you go again. You can have this opinion all you want. But don't go trying to say that the description can actually be read in this way. That is B.S. and it is obviously so.

[BurgerBeast]

I'm glad for you that you were sure of your opinion, but that does not change the fact it's one of the few features that divided community more or less in equally sized groups. Which is a clear sign of "definitive ambiguity".
Like it or not, that's the hard fact.

Actually, you can ignore my last post. This is why you're wrong (and I did explain this in my first post).

A divided community cannot be evidence of ambiguity.

A divided community can have one side that is clearly right and one side that is clearly wrong. It can have two sides that are both clearly wrong. It can have two sides that are both clearly right. Or it can be ambiguous. Or it can have more than two sides.

Edit: You can't just say: divided community -> therefore: ambiguous. That's not defensible.

That's a complete failure to understand what ambiguous means.

Rsp and I say the community is divided into one side that is clearly wrong and one side that is clearly right.

You say they are divided over an ambiguous matter.

So we have to look at the facts of the matter. Those are in the text.

[RSP]

Sorry, but your post does not bring anything.
You didn't get the matter, like the previous poster.
Worse, you contradict yourself since you told the exact opposite thing a few posts ago. Confer this part...


And that's illustrating the whole case really.

Illustrating what?? There’s no contradiction there. You keep trying to point to stuff that doesn’t back up your point. An effect can take hold on an attack, and last for the duration after failing three saves. Nothing in those statements are contradictory. I really have no idea why you think they are.



You didn't get my other point either, which just proves you didn't really try.
Polymorph? Successful save = wasted slot.
Banishment? Same.
Disintegrate? Same.
Bestow Curse? Same.
Etc.

I agree that 90% was pushing it because, hopefully, a majority of direct damage spells at least provide half damage. And some of the class exclusive spells ought to never be a complete waste of slots because either at least dealing damage (Paladin / Ranger spells) or being large enough AOE to affect at least *some* creatures (like Spirit Guardians). On another hand those spells usually require one more condition to take effect (landing an attack, moving into close range etc).

But at least 50% of all spells are "save or suck" both ways.
Yet people happily try it, with more or less metagaming/preparating/party help to improve their chance, because on a success their effects are really powerful.


Your point was it’s the same as other offensive spells as a “save or suck,” which I understood and countered by stating it’s not equal. In your view, it’s not a save or suck. First you have to hit or it does nothing; then the target has to fail 3 saves. That’s not the same as just having to fail 1 save.

[CorporateSlave]

Do not use Glyph of Warding.

Very risky (but hillarious if it works) option, depending on the rules of the duel, would be to use Amulet of the Planes. Get close to the giant, use the amulet, and try to FAIL the Int check: You and everyone within 15' of you gets transported randomly into other planes, with no save allowed. The giant doesn't have a way back, you do: just Banish yourself back where you came from, or you can keep playing with the Amulet until you succeed and get back where you want.

Both are Very Rare items, and while expensive, they should be in your price range.

Or, just buy yourself a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding...all you gotta do is get within 10', and use your object interaction to shove the Portable Hole inside the Bag of Holding. *FWUNT*

No worrying about failing saves, intentional or otherwise. Also both items are not so expensive (Rare and Uncommon, respectively).

The wording "Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it and deposited in a random location on the Astral Plane" really doesn't sound like you and the giant are going to the same random location, but rather everybody gets their own random drop zone.

Sure, you gotta get back...but you've still got your action. Maybe those two relatively cheap magic items left enough gold for an Amulet of the Planes, or even a Cubic Gate. Or you could just Banish yourself back home as JackPheonix suggested.

Sure, the giant will probably get home somehow, eventually, but you'll have freed the slaves by then and moved on.
Hopefully your DM is smart/honorable enough to allow the above to work, in anticipation of the future campaign plot line of the Return of the Furious Giant.

[Unoriginal]

Or, just buy yourself a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding...all you gotta do is get within 10', and use your object interaction to shove the Portable Hole inside the Bag of Holding. *FWUNT*

No worrying about failing saves, intentional or otherwise. Also both items are not so expensive (Rare and Uncommon, respectively).

The wording "Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it and deposited in a random location on the Astral Plane" really doesn't sound like you and the giant are going to the same random location, but rather everybody gets their own random drop zone.

Sure, you gotta get back...but you've still got your action. Maybe those two relatively cheap magic items left enough gold for an Amulet of the Planes, or even a Cubic Gate. Or you could just Banish yourself back home as JackPheonix suggested.

Sure, the giant will probably get home somehow, eventually, but you'll have freed the slaves by then and moved on.
Hopefully your DM is smart/honorable enough to allow the above to work, in anticipation of the future campaign plot line of the Return of the Furious Giant.

Not a bad point either.